How do OWLs work?

[Pilgrim Grey]

I'm not from England, so the Ordinary Wizarding Level tests may be just the equivalent of the school system over there, but I've been wondering how they work... I gather that they're a set of tests and/or exams for intermediate students, with the NEWTs being the 7th year 'leving' tests (Australia has a similar thing - the School Certficate in 10th grade and the Higher School Certificate in 12th grade), but that's not really what I'm confused about. What I'm confused about is the grading - we've had a couple of mentions about people getting a certain number of OWLs - Ron speculates that Tom Riddle might have got 30 OWLs, Barty Crouch in his delusions says that his son got something like 15 OWLs (I don't have my book handy, somebody correct me!) which he says is very satisfactory, and Fred and George "scrape through with a couple of OWLs each". Now what I want to know is how can 15 OWLs be very good if somebody else got 30 - effectively saying that Crouch Jr got 50% or less; and if Fred and George only get a couple, does that mean that they're getting around 10% for they're final mark?

This might be unanswerable at the moment, and it'll probably be cleared up in OOTP, but does anyone have any idea hwo they work?

[Seriphus]

Well the exams correspond to GCSEs and A-levels in England and Wales (and to the Scottish equivalents).
GCSEs are taken at the end of year 11 (5th year). On average students take 10 subjects, and you get a seperate certificate for each subject you pass rather than an overall mark. Brighter students can chose to do a greater number of GCSEs. Most schools or colleges require students to have a certain number of GCSEs to progress into the sixth form.

So assuming that OWLs are supposed to be like GCSEs, Barty Crouch Sr said his son got 12. Bill and Percy each got 12 as well. This would be seen as a high acheivement. Fred and George 'scraping a handful of OWLs', which I guess would be about 6 or 7 is underacheiving.
Ron suggesting that Tom Riddle got 30 must have been an exaggeration- if anyone did get that amount of OWLs then they would definitely deserve an award.


Serphy

[Pilgrim Grey]

OK, so it's not really a measure of performance, because a person who got 30 OWLs might have been doing a lot more subjects than somebody who got 12 OWLs? Is that right? Hopefully it'll get cleared up in OOTP

[Seriphus]

That's right.
I should think we'll find out when Harry takes his in OOTP, as you said.

[Fleurdelacour]

Originally posted by Seriphus
Brighter students can chose to do a greater number of GCSEs. Most schools or colleges require students to have a certain number of GCSEs to progress into the sixth form.



Not always, we're forced to do eleven, I think... Well actually DT, RE, and IT, are half GCSEs... So I do the same amount of stress and hell for, well nothing. So even though we do about eleven subjects, three are half... :rolleyes: :mad:

And I only need five to get into college, three subjects, two in English and two in Science, and I'll get my art, I neededn't bother with the rest... :rolleyes:

OWLS, are the Wizarding equivilent of stupid stress and hell.

[Kristin]

I thought I'd bring this topic back up because I'm confused after reading OotP. In the first few books, they talk about number of O.W.L.s people got (Bill and Percy each got 12, Fred and George "scraped a few"), but in OotP the focus is on grades (O,E,A, etc.) in each subject.

I don't see how the two mesh. Does it make any more sense to anybody else?

[Seriphus]

Both the grades and the amount can matter. At least in projecting the GCSE system onto OWLs. In general the more you get the better, but at the same time it would be better to get 10 As than say 12 Cs. With GCSEs grades A - C are a pass so its important to get at least a C.
In terms of OWLs grades O - A seem to represent A - C.
Hermione says:

I mean, all right, I didn't expect a top grade, not if he's marking to OWL standard, but a pass is quite encouraging at this stage...

Which suggests OWLs follow the GCSE practice and O - A are pass grades.
The grades are important for continued study of particular subjects. I imagine at NEWT level subjects become a lot harder so for some, particularly difficult ones like potions, students need to show that they have a good grasp of the basics and that they'll be able to handle studying to a higher level i.e. that they can get a high grade at OWL level.
In terms of getting a job, unless you go for a specialised career like a doctor/ healer, or of course auror, then employers tend to look at how many OWLs rather than what grades.

[Pilgrim Grey]

OK, so let me get this straight (it's so much simpler here in Australia - just a percentage for the OWL equivalent (the School Certificate) and then a percentage according to your ranking in you class for the NEWT equivalent (the Higher School Certificate):
The number of OWLS you get is really determined by the number of courses you do. So Hermione, if she stayed with all her subjects from third year, would've easily gotten the most owls (not taking into account the number she'd get anyway from being smart). Grades are basically how well you did in each OWL.

Is that right?

[Seriphus]

Spot on. :)

And I think NEWTs will probably a lot more important than OWLs anyway. ;)

[Lord Schaudt]

Afterall, the only thing that the career pamphlets talk about are you NEWT test...



however OWL's limit what newt classes you can take so you have to do well

[Fleurdelacour]

Yeah GCSES are pretty useless when you've got A Levels :)

Although, the fifth years only have a little wait for their results - July. We have to wait until the 21st August....

[PhineasNigellus]

*phineas looks iratatedly at Fleurdelacour for reminding him*

[Lord Schaudt]

In Michigan where i live we have MEAP test, every couple of years

it stands for Michigan Educational Assesment Program, or some jive like that. it doesn't mean much but you get money for doing good...

In the USA we have Act's and SAT I and SAT II instead of NEWTs, or A's

[Fleurdelacour]

We have SATS... You do them when you're seven, eleven and thirteen... They're for the govenment, and teachers think they're useless, teachers wanted them abolished. I had to teach myself Shakespere for the English exam because our hopeless Englush teacher refused to teach us, and our head teacher didn't believe us... He even called my friend Elizabeth a little black (you excrete it...) even with witnesses our head didn't believe it, and expelled Elizabeth!! she came back though. My old school - Umbridge land...

Oh we have CATS too, no idea what they were about when we took them, every year, on our first day back in September, we'd have to set these tests. We found out what they were - intelligence tests. I did rubbish on them. That's how they predicted our GCSE grades, through a computer marking system. Although... the CATS predicted me a F in English, which is impossible because I got straight As in my coursework... :rolleyes:

British school system... Isn't it delightful...

[Torisen]

It doesn’t sound as if OWLs and NEWTs have any American equivalent (which is probably why they leave me kind of puzzled, as well.) In HP, these tests seem to dictate a) what subjects you can study further and b) what sort of career you can have after graduation. PSAT, ACT, SAT I, SAT II, AP, and IB – none of them do this (and the first three aren’t in specific subjects, either.) They can, however (except for PSAT, IIRC) influence which colleges you’re likely to get into, which can indirectly affect one’s career. Other tests are just assessments of how the school systems are doing. OWLS sound like AP or IB tests if they were taken early in high school rather than near the end and determined what you could study as an upperclassman.

[PhineasNigellus]

yeah well its not like it really matters how we do in exams anyway seeing as the marking is fixed!! I mean they seem to (as far as i can tell) make up the grades....hang that might be helpful come August 21!

[Fleurdelacour]

Ha, I think they're fixed too... I reckon when you're born, your name is given to the government, and they decide whether you're going to be sucsessful or not and then they tell your schools, and your teachers to, well teach you, ie pay attention to you in class.., because if everyone did well in their GCSES and A-Levels, then no one would go into low-paid work, like (no offence to these people) postmen, or dustbin men. You need them, you can't surivive with out them.

I reckon I was one of the ones that was picked to be unsucsessful... I can't spell, as I never had a teacher tought us how to spell. I don't know all my times-tables as we were never taught them either... Only my art teacher ever showed interest in us... Blah... Well, college to look forward too now... Far fetched, isn't it? :p

Good luck for the 21st Phineas

[Little Miss]

Originally posted by Fleurdelacour
I reckon I was one of the ones that was picked to be unsucsessful... I can't spell, as I never had a teacher tought us how to spell. I don't know all my times-tables as we were never taught them either... Only my art teacher ever showed interest in us... Blah... Well, college to look forward too now... Far fetched, isn't it? :p

Good luck for the 21st Phineas

we had miss/mrs Morgan (cant remember her salutation) who was ok, except she didnt shave her armpits. and i was never taught times-tables either but i ended up in the highest maths classes for some reason... maybe i was one picked to be a sucess but have been subconciously ruining all their carefully laid plans by switching schools at random and dropping out and generally being a bum.

is it the 21st? i thought it was the 23rd :(

my college enrolment day is on the 21st... i think... which means i'm going to have a choice of go down to London, pick up my results and rush back up to Ewell to enrol on the first day, or i can just go to the enrolment day and hope they dont ask me what my results are (which to be honest i dont think they will) and get my mum to post them to me down here.

argh why is life so complicated.

[Fleurdelacour]

The teachers did always like you... Mrs Anistasio has left! Did you know, I was there, last year. They even made you Prefect...*sigh* I don't want to remember her armpits... I was seven, and that was just disturbing... *shudder* although... she did ask me recently if I was still drawing, it was because of her I got in Dulwich Picture Gallery... Maybe I'm destined to be an artist... But then Mrs Powell in year six put me in the top english group... but that was with mr doran, so that may have been torture... he scared me senseless... worse then any umbridge or snape combined...

My college enrollment day is on the 26th August... at 2pm...

[Little Miss]

Originally posted by Fleurdelacour
Mrs Anistasio has left!

she'd been wanting to leave since the middle of our fifth year but first she thought she had to stay cause of the leadership change, and then she couldn't leave because her husband couldn't hold down a job for too long and they would have lost their house otherwise (or something, i picked this up from what i heard from mum and various othre sources, i'm just piecing together here)

y'know, i finally found out why Tessa acted funny/nice around me. when my mum was in the Maudsley so was her dad, and when they came to visit him my mum was in the lobby-type thing and she went over and gave Tessa and Raff a big hug and sat chatting to them, and when the orderlies came over to see what she was doing they didnt realise she knew them and tried to get them away from her, and they didnt know what was going on and mum was like "but i know these kids and i like them and we were talking here" and Mrs Anastasio was trying to communicate to the people that it was ok she was quite happy to have her kids talk to the crazy lady but noooooo and apparently mum got so pissed off she attacked one of the nurses.....

Originally posted by Fleurdelacour
They even made you Prefect... top english group... but that was with mr doran, so that may have been torture... he scared me senseless... worse then any umbridge or snape combined...

BEING A PREFECT WAS TORTURE!!!! they made us scrape the food off the kids plates, set up the hall for dinner, stand outside all breaktime to open doors for people and generally make us as miserable as possible. nothing like being a hogwarts prefect, although i suppose it must be torture to have so many priveleges your friends get slightly alienated from you....

Mr Doran was alright... a little peppery but he was a decent teacher.

[Elwen]

Good luck to all those waiting for exam results...

I am just wondering - I thought the A levels come out on the 15th or so, since universities get to see them on the 11th (AFAIK). Are you waiting for GCSEs?



Anyway, I think Torisen is touching upon something that makes the UK system unique (and uniquely bad, I think, sorry): people basically have to make up their mind about their career (or about a gemeral direction) when they are 16 (at the latest).

That is so wrong! At this poi t I would (witrh a heavy heart) have done all maths and sciences - later on (after starting on two university courses simultaneously because I couldn't decide at 18) I made up my mind aged 20 or so - and I am absolutely sure that I would have got it so wrong at 16....

I teach lots of higly intelligent people who have been through it .- and in most cases I think they haven't been allowed to make most of their potential... which is sad.

Oh well. The government are finally thinking of making it less narrow - and I think that would be very good indeed!


Harry was lucky that his story got invbented around 1995 (I guess? published from 1997, if I remember rightly). BEFORE the stupid AS levels were introduced - yet another centrally assessed set of exams between GCSEs and A levels - to make sure kids can't relax for fully 3 years :rolleyes: .



JKR could have called them BAT - Blasted Additional Torture.

Sorry that I have to be so negative about this - I think the exam system in the UK is a complete scandal, making it very hard indeed for people to actually learn things (beyond how to pass exams) and finding learning pleasant ...

Elwen

[Fleurdelacour]

Yeah, we're waiting for our GCSE results... *sigh* It is awful that we have to make all these decisions now... I'm taking English Literature and Language, Fine Art, Textiles, and Media Studies, and I don't know whether I'm making a huge mistake in taking Textiles (I'm not sure whether I want to be a costume designer, fashion designer, insane artist, obscure writer, journalist... something creative...) but I'm not sure if I'll be better of doing Biology too... I do love biology... Well, this is all relying on the fact I pass my GCSES first... :rolleyes:

AS Levels... Hmmmm... Got my first exam in January... For Media Studies... I've read things, on other boards that some people when taking their AS exams had fifteen minute breaks between exams! And they had something like four exams in a day... Surely, it can't be that bad can it?

My friend Maria, she's going to a grammar school's sixth form, and is doing a baccalaureate, like they have on the Continient. She's doing a wide variety of subjects (she wants to be a child therapist) including English Language and Literature, Maths (I'd never do that again, I'd personally rather die...) Biology, Physics and Chemistry, she also does a course in Switzerland working with children, and does several things in the community. It all sounds really interesting (bar the maths of course...) Makes me wish I'd worked harder in Secondary School, rather then flick ink at Miss Ebersom in our second year...

JKR could have called them BAT - Blasted Additional Torture.

Sorry that I have to be so negative about this - I think the exam system in the UK is a complete scandal, making it very hard indeed for people to actually learn things (beyond how to pass exams) and finding learning pleasant ...



Hilarious :D

It's a mess, a complete mess... At Secondary School we had a new maths teacher every few months, and I'm not kidding, in the end the rather Umbridge alike headmistress herself had to teach us in her spare time... she was just horrid... If you didn't understand one measley question on your maths homework she'd send you to the back of the classroom and tell you that you're not worth teaching... Oh I hated her... :mad: Just as bad as Mr Doran... (he was not a good maths teacher monica... he shouted relentlessly)

I used to love school, when I was about, oh seven or six... and our wonderful teacher spent time individualy with teacher pupil and made the most out of them... I'll never forget her, she's the sort of teacher you always want, but she left...

I'm just hoping, we get stable teachers in college... My college is pretty good, although I got in automatically with out an interview... It's just a question of getting six GCSES to be able to do the courses... And of course, an A* - B in English... If I don't get that, watch me jump off tower bridge...

*

Ms Anistasio left because she wasn't a Catholic and would never be able to become Headmistress, which she would have been great at... I can't bare to think of all thouse ickle Reception kids not knowing her!

Tessa was nice to you at one point? Never knew that... she's still friends with Natalie! and Jade and Cleo are going to college with me... I'll never get rid of them... It'll be how many years once we leave... fourteen years knowing them!

I know Prefect was tortue... You'll never guess what that foul Ms Coma did to my brother! I'll tell you another time as this post is really too long for my own good... :rolleyes: Enough of this...

[Elwen]

Yes, the Baccalaureat is a pretty cool idea. I have a few students who did the international Bacccalaureat. They actually speak a foreign language (only British teenagers I met to do so with some ease).

I heard that they are thinking about making that system standard in state schools. That would be truly amazing.


Let me get that straight - that Catholic focus and the prefect business sounds as if your parents actually paid for a school that seems to be *THAT* bad? :eek: This all sounds to me as if it were an independent school....


Anyway - I see so many people who do cool things with their British school education - I like the universities in the UK better than on the continent 8and no, I am not just talking Oxbridge, i know others, too).


I like the idea of doing textile studies - this is one thing that Brits can do at schools athat continentals often cannot. All those subjects that go beyond the ordinary syllabus sort of stuff.... drama, for example. :)


Anyway - good luck to you all :hug:
Things will work out, you'll see. :)



Elwen

[Little Miss]

it was a state school we both went to, a very good one though.

Mr Doran was an ENGLISH teacher, dummy!!

if i'd gone to jags i would have done the baccawhatsistsname but noooo you have to be even cleverer than i was back then AND have a shedload of money to get into that place.

generally we brits have this notion that most countries worth visiting and most people worth talking to understand and even speak a little english (sad thing is, this is generally true. if we werent so pigheaded and stubborn other people wouldn't have to learn our language but nooooo), and also carry the preconception that if someone doesnt understand you the first time all you have to do to make them understand is say it slower and louder.

uni in the UK is pretty good, aside from the abysmal fees and cost of living, even worse if you're studying away from home and trying to live without your parents there to pick up bills if you cant manage and cook your meals, maybe do some laundry and make sure the hot water doesnt get turned off, etc, etc.

you dont have do have decided what career you're going to have age 16, but it does help you to decide which exams are best for you. personally i have got absolutely no idea what i'm going to end up doing, for GCSE have done advanced engligh, intermediate maths, modular science and Art and Design (all of which i'm expecting at least a B in, which is a fairly good pass), and hopefully will begin to study Law, Psycology, Photograpy and English at AS+A level (the college i'm hoping to go to lets in anyone, which is why they'll accept me with only my four GCSE's, albeit good ones)

sometimes i really wish i hadn't dropped out of school. but then again if i hadn't i wouldn't be who i am today, which if i may say so is a damn great person :D

i'm sorry what is this thread supposed to be about?

email me with this story, anything involving a chick called "mrs coma" deserves to be told.

[Lord Schaudt]

I'll tell yall this, you should have your knowledge tested, but it should not be done in a formal massive test like in Birtain or in HP land. Your grades are the real test! if they go rid of everything else and just looked at grades, athletic ability, and extrcurricular activities people would (A) learn more and (b) have more fun learning cuz teachers would stop just teching to the test!

[Fleurdelacour]

Mr Doran taught me maths for two dreadful years from age nine to age eleven... You didn't have him.

Ah James Allens Girls school... The snobs school. The best damnned girls school in Britian... The local school... ha! I wouldn't want to go there no matter how intelligent or rich I was. I don't want to mingle with daddy's little rich girls... :rolleyes:

Our old Primary school is one of the best in Southwark. Prefects were only intoduced when we got our new head when we were in our last year there. He was probaly the best thing to happen to it.

I then went to a convent - one of the best in greenwich, until 2000, when we got a new headteacher and it went downhill from here. Teacher's left because of the her... we were promised trips to Egypt, Spain, France, everywhere. We didn't step outside Greenwich... went and saw that observatory once or twice with that nun...

Please let my new one be good....

I don't think I'll go to Uni, but get a degree at a good art college, I was invited to do two weeks at Chelsea School of Art, but couldnt go because of my holiday... So I'm hoping to go there or to St Martins after college...

Yes, good idea Lord Schaudt, :) as long as it wasn't maths knowledge ;) Why does athletic abilty count when getting a job though?

[Drizella]

Ugh, I'm an abysmal terrible test-taker, so I'm not sure how well I'd fare if I were to be solely evaluated based on test scores alone. I'm an American student who studied at a British university, and they certainly place more value on tests there than in American universities. I had a lot of fun in England, except everyone was so serious about their studies! :rolleyes: ;) :p

((((Brits))))

Studying in England certainly did help me to understand and relate to the world of HP and OWLs and such better, though.

Fleurdelacour said
Why does athletic abilty count when getting a job though?
Maybe just to show how versatile you can be? It also may prove that you can be successful in one area and still have time for other activities on the side. I'm not too athletic, though. Wow, I've got a lot going for me! :cool:

Sorry if this has been established, but what does 'GCSE' stand for?

[Fleurdelacour]

I guess, but what about us lazy sods, who did ballet when we were seven? ;)

GCSE... erm... *thinks* I read it enough times on my exam papers... Oh! General Certifect of Secondry Education... I think... Kill me if I'm wrong... :o

[Lord Schaudt]

Its better to hire athetes for jobs becuase they stay in shape, Live longer, are more healthy, and work more effiecnetly.

Ohh and becuase colleges are buisness and having good sports teams is good buisness

[Athelas]

I teach people how to do well on the US standardized tests, and the next time I hear someone moaning about them I am going to direct him to this thread!

I love lots of British authors, British-based fiction(ex-Martha Grimes), even the British language:D, but I have to say I am quite happy I was born in the US when it comes to RL. I even yell at the TV during Wimbledon "DO NOT CURTSEY!" There's something to be said for starting with a clean slate in 1776.

But BIG thanks to all who explained about the OWLs--I think I know what they are, but then I realize I really don't.

[Lord Schaudt]

yeah i took my SAT's i got a 900 in 7th grade, now im a junior and taking them again so we shall see.