The Sinister World of Harry Potter

[Elfëa]

What do you think?

To what extend the world of Harry's is sinister? I also want to invoke some discussion about Harry's character in depth. :)

In my opinion, Harry's world is as sinister as ours - and I hope that Harry will have a change to develop in character, not to remain as the Boy Who Did Not Question Himself.

There are several things that hit in mind first.

1) "Kill the spare." Lord Voldemort didn't have to kill Cedric. He could have stunned him or even put him under Imperio. But he did. No reason, but that Cedric was spare.

2) Muggles and Death Eaters. Why the Death Eaters hate Muggles cannot be explained as anything else than racism. Also power corrupts. There are no ways for a Muggle to stop a Wizard. Note I said a Muggle the other possibilities are often discussed in fanfiction ;)

3) There is no reason given to the fact that Voldemort wishes to kill baby Harry. As long as we are not given any fact or reason, it's reasonable to assume that he had no reason, but desire to kill Harry, because he's "spare".

4) The possiblities where Harry's character can go in the darkness. Harry can easily turn into the way of revenge.

5) Harry's childhood. Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives, and it's safe for him to live with them. And it's wise from Dumbledore to let him grow up with his fame (and get a big head :p), but Dumbledore also chose him the childhood where he was not loved. Where he learned to deal things on his own, not asking for help. Not trusting anyone. Draco Veritas fanfic deals bloody well with this point.

6) The prejustice.

Okay, that's it. I started to come up with opposite theories ;)

[amrael]

What exactly do you mean by prejustice?

[Elfëa]

silently hopes she has chosen the right word

I mean the prejustice of wizards and witches in general - the attitude towards Muggles. The attitude of the Ministry of Magic to cover up Cedric's death. The acceptance of what the press says - as the Rita Skeeter part. hmm... what else? Dozens of things - like attitude towards giants and such... :)

[amrael]

OK. Prejudice with some other things thrown in. :)

Now, to the real post.


I think Voldemort wanted to kill Harry for a very specific but unknown reason. He went after him (or at least after his parents) and he did it in person. If they were just random opposers, he would have got random Death Eaters to do the job. Also I don't think everybody opposed to Voldemort would go all the way to get a Fidelius Charm. If they did it (I assume that it meant for them to live secluded) it was because they had good reason to think Voldemort would go after them.

I'm bothered by the Dumbledore choice about the Dursleys. Either he doesn't know how Harry gets treated or he is playing with fire. Seeing how the muggles have treated him, isn't there a chance that we will have to deal with a second Tom Riddle? Let's not forget that Riddle has a very real grievance against muggles, or at least against his muggle father. Placing Harry in a similar position could mean trouble. In CoS one of the facts that everybody remembers when blaming Harry for the acts of the basilisk is his resentment toward his muggle family.


There is something you don't mention, and I find it by far the most sinister thing about the wizarding world: their appalling lack of justice. Sirius Black is condemned to life imprisionment in a horrifying place without a trial, a hearing... nothing. And wizards have several powerful tools available, such as Priori Incantatem (to find out what has been done with a wand) and most important of all: Veritaserum. If you can't lie, then justice mistakes should be unheard of. Yet everybody assumes them as if they were the most usual thing to happen.

Another thing comes to mind: if every death eater has the Dark Mark in the arm, how can it be so difficult to track them? Just ask them to roll up their sleeves, and yet nobody seems to think of it.


Wierd people, this wizards....

[Elfëa]

I agree with the first paragraph entirely, but I just wanted to think of something to say.
As for second, I did not think of Tom Riddle, but you're right there. Dumbledore is seriosly playing with fire. And he is playing with it. After all, he did let Harry fight on his own in PS and CoS... and in PoA.

Originally posted by amrael
There is something you don't mention, and I find it by far the most sinister thing about the wizarding world: their appalling lack of justice. Sirius Black is condemned to life imprisionment in a horrifying place without a trial, a hearing... nothing. And wizards have several powerful tools available, such as Priori Incantatem (to find out what has been done with a wand) and most important of all: Veritaserum. If you can't lie, then justice mistakes should be unheard of. Yet everybody assumes them as if they were the most usual thing to happen.
We can assume that Sirius' wand was never found, but yes. The lack of justice.
Again, with Hagrid - he goes to Azkaban during Harry's second year, blamed for releasing the monster. However, they could have used Veritaserum on him, to understand the truth.
Unless, the Ministry cannot use it, because it's illegal. Sirius' imprisoment happened during a war, war time laws are different - these things remind me of the world we live in...

Another thing comes to mind: if every death eater has the Dark Mark in the arm, how can it be so difficult to track them? Just ask them to roll up their sleeves, and yet nobody seems to think of it.

I think the Dark Mark dimmed and became invisible when the Dark Lord's call was not immediate. When Karkaroff came to speak about the Mark during the Potion's Class, he said it was coming stronger.

[amrael]

Well, yes about the wand. It might be missing. Anyway, even if we consider wartime 'justice', it would make sense to interrogate Voldemort alleged heir apparent with Veritaserum, to try to extract as much intelligence as possible. Unless the person who improsioned him knew for sure that Black was innocent and wasn't at all interested in the truth. So we go from sinister to sinisterer ;)


I don't think that Veritaserum is illegal at all. First, because Dumbledore uses it matter of factly, and nobody thinks twice about it, and second because Snape threatens Harry with it openly in class. If it was illegal, Snape wouldn't have been so foolish and somebody would have said something about it.




I think the Dark Mark dimmed and became invisible when the Dark Lord's call was not immediate. When Karkaroff came to speak about the Mark during the Potion's Class, he said it was coming stronger.

True. Maybe when it is dormant it is not easy at all to detect it. Maybe you must be a Death Eater to know how to see it. Though I'm having second thoughts about this: I think that the branding of Death Eaters is not common knowledge at all. I have GoF at my knees right now and Snape explains the purpose of it to Fudge as if he was saying something new. Fudge's reaction is one of incredulity, as if he never heard of such a thing. :confused:

[Colli]

I always assumed the Dark Mark on the arm was a secret thing.. only Voldemort's supporters knew about it.

:D I've got too much work to do to come up with an intelligent post, but I'll be back. (Sheesh... 5 exams over the next two days)

[Elfëa]

Well, yes about the wand. It might be missing. Anyway, even if we consider wartime 'justice', it would make sense to interrogate Voldemort alleged heir apparent with Veritaserum, to try to extract as much intelligence as possible. Unless the person who improsioned him knew for sure that Black was innocent and wasn't at all interested in the truth. So we go from sinister to sinisterer ;)


And it has been mentioned that Fudge was at the scene first... We could be going from sinister to SINISTER... ;)
Otherwise, you've got point :)

About Veritaserum, I think Snape mentiones that it's use is strickly controlled by the Ministry.

True. Maybe when it is dormant it is not easy at all to detect it. Maybe you must be a Death Eater to know how to see it. Though I'm having second thoughts about this: I think that the branding of Death Eaters is not common knowledge at all. I have GoF at my knees right now and Snape explains the purpose of it to Fudge as if he was saying something new. Fudge's reaction is one of incredulity, as if he never heard of such a thing. :confused:
I think it's both. It has been mentioned to grow darker when Dark Lord called for his minions.
And I don't think it's widely known. Mr. Weasley did not mention it - but I wouldn't think he would, even if he knew it. And Fudge's surprise - was it only acting (refering above :p)

[amrael]

I think Snape mentiones that it's use is strickly controlled by the Ministry.




True, he does. But one would think that the Ministry guidelines would allow the use of Veritaserum for interrogation by Ministry officials, no?


And I agree with you: Fudge seems to me more than suspect.

[Elfëa]

That would mean high level corruption.

But even if he is not corrupted, Fudge is prejusticed against Muggles. He is a pure-blood lover, who only got his job - which he, btw, has hold for quite a while...
He is friends with Lucius Malfoy, who we know is a Death Eater. Public, of course, does not know it. Public sees Mr. Malfoy perhaps as a generous, once faltered man. But who did not falter during that war?

Fudge is prejusticed, not only against Muggles, but also against giants - anything that could threathen his high place.
He might no be corrupted by Death Eaters, I doubt that he's wise enought for that, but he can be corrupted by power, power that the Death Eaters will take from him if he joins them.

[Kristin]

Originally posted by amrael
I find it by far the most sinister thing about the wizarding world: their appalling lack of justice.

I agree.

Hagrid is expelled from Hogwarts (and his wand is broken) for something he didn't do. Then at the end of CoS, he is proved innocent... but there's no official pardon, no general announcement of his innocence, no permission to buy a new wand. And no apology for the wrongful expulsion and wrongful imprisonment. Furthermore, he was sent to Azkaban not because anybody thought he was truly guilty but because they needed a scapegoat to keep up appearances!

I think JKR is too cynical.

[lithorose]

Dumbledore placed Harry with the Dursleys for other reasons than simply wanting Harry to remain humble. There's an old magic at work, which GoF hints at, that Dumbledore perhaps did not create. That is what protects Harry from Voldemort. However there is a lot of risk in giving him an abusive household to grow up in; a lot of times people don't turn out as good as Harry did. I'm kind of surprised this hasn't been any protest over this; the abuse is treated in a somewhat lighthearted manner.

As for injustice, yes there is a lot of it, and that's how life is. Harry and all Griffindors have to put up with Snape's rather obvious favoritism, and Malfoy never gets in trouble for anything he causes, Harry and co. get blamed for lots of things they don't do. In most books I've read everything is put right by the end, but in life that's seldom the case. People have too much pride to admit their mistakes, and we never live long enough to see ultimate justice.

Voldemort is obsessed with bringing Harry Potter down. It's never explained. (Yet. I think JKR has a very good explanation which she's keeping from us.)

As for Dark Marks, I get the impression they only show up at certain times, and I don't think any wizard with one would let you see it without a nasty fight. I thought I read that only Voldemort's inner circle of 13 got them.

The thing I don't understand is why Malfoy (or anyone) serves the Dark Lord. What was their incentive to do so? Esp. in Malfoy's case, where he doesn't seem like the serving type at all. Unless he had secret plans of overthrowing Voldemort, or if he acknowledged his superiority (which is interesting because the dark lord isn't pureblood.)

About Veritaserum; if it was illegal I would think it would invalidate Crouch's testimony.

[Elfëa]

Originally posted by lithorose
Dumbledore placed Harry with the Dursleys for other reasons than simply wanting Harry to remain humble. There's an old magic at work, which GoF hints at, that Dumbledore perhaps did not create. That is what protects Harry from Voldemort.

Could he have created the protection else where? If it's magic that requires relatives, I guess not. But Dumbledore knew it wouldn't be easy to fetch Harry from his relatives...

However there is a lot of risk in giving him an abusive household to grow up in; a lot of times people don't turn out as good as Harry did. I'm kind of surprised this hasn't been any protest over this; the abuse is treated in a somewhat lighthearted manner.

In PS Dumbledore says that it's safe and better Harry to live with his relatives "until he is ready."
Ready for what? sorry, Harry mood and no one has posted in the Harry thread I made :o

As for injustice, yes there is a lot of it, and that's how life is. Harry and all Griffindors have to put up with Snape's rather obvious favoritism, and Malfoy never gets in trouble for anything he causes, Harry and co. get blamed for lots of things they don't do. In most books I've read everything is put right by the end, but in life that's seldom the case. People have too much pride to admit their mistakes, and we never live long enough to see ultimate justice.

This invokes a question - Shall there be ultimate justice in the end of book 7? Most fantasy books tell about victory, but with a cost... so - is there justice ;)

[/b]The thing I don't understand is why Malfoy (or anyone) serves the Dark Lord. What was their incentive to do so? Esp. in Malfoy's case, where he doesn't seem like the serving type at all. Unless he had secret plans of overthrowing Voldemort, or if he acknowledged his superiority (which is interesting because the dark lord isn't pureblood.) [/B]

Power over Muggles. Hatred against Muggles.
Same as asking why some people are racists. But we cannot, after all know, as we see Voldemort from Harry's point of view, is he (Voldemort) really the darkness, evil and wrong as he is described.

[Seriphus]

This invokes a question - Shall there be ultimate justice in the end of book 7? Most fantasy books tell about victory, but with a cost... so - is there justice I hope at the end that there isn't an ultimate justice. Voldemort should be defeated, but everyone should be aware that the chance of another dark wizard rising to power is very real. I don't imagine JKR would have a totally 'happy ever after' ending. She's been pretty dark in the last couple of books and it's going to get darker still.
Could he have created the protection else where? If it's magic that requires relatives, I guess not. But Dumbledore knew it wouldn't be easy to fetch Harry from his relatives... I was wondering whether there was some Muggle equivalent of unplottable areas where wizards couldn't find Muggle buildings. This doesn't really make sense, I know, because the Weasleys found the Dursleys home OK etc, but perhaps there are areas with their own natural magic. Alright, now I've written it down it sounds silly, I'm not explaining it very well.

[Colli]

Originally posted by Elfëa
Could he have created the protection else where? If it's magic that requires relatives, I guess not. But Dumbledore knew it wouldn't be easy to fetch Harry from his relatives...

In PS Dumbledore says that it's safe and better Harry to live with his relatives "until he is ready."
Ready for what?

Fetching Harry probably wasn't the least of his problems, you just jump in and snatch him and leave. ;) But Dumbledore also wanted to make sure he grew up in an environment where he wasn't the famous Harry Potter, and I don't think he could have gotten that living with witches or wizards. So it was until he was ready to know who he really was.. and maybe that quote refers to the same "ready" that Harry is for Dumbledore to tell him the ENTIRE history, the history we'll learn in Book 5. Maybe Sirius's name will be cleared and he can leave the awful Dursleys *please*

This invokes a question - Shall there be ultimate justice in the end of book 7? Most fantasy books tell about victory, but with a cost... so - is there justice ;)
Nope.... yes, kill Voldie. We need closure. But do it at a terrible cost. Make it like (not TOO like ;)) LotR, where it all ends but not everyone feels all flowery and hunky-dory and all.

[Elfëa]

Originally posted by Colli
Nope.... yes, kill Voldie. We need closure. But do it at a terrible cost. Make it like (not TOO like ;)) LotR, where it all ends but not everyone feels all flowery and hunky-dory and all.
And I'll cry. :o

And I wouldn't say fetching Harry is easy - but young Harry's being rather trusting, even if the childhood he has had doesn't really make you think he would be trusting.

But at least it has really taught him not to ask questions - how many times Harry has been asking around about his parents? I mean, he's been mentioned in every single "Defeating the Dark Lord" book, sure there would be something about his parents - which house they belonged and such. :)
and that all goes back to the thread I started and no one's been interested enough to post in... :( :o :p