Politics, Current Events, and such [Archive]

Remus

03-18-2003, 05:56 PM

I agree with what you say, Colli, about Saddam Hussein, he is by no means a nice man. He is a tyranical dictator. But I simply cannot agree with America and Britain's justification for war; especially without a second UN resolution. What I want to know is why does this war have to happen now? Why didn't Clinton go into Iraq 4 years ago when the weapon's inspectors were kicked out? Surely Saddam was showing himself to be more of a threat then than he is now.

Neither Britain nor America seem to be sure why exactly they're going into Iraq. First it was because he had WMD, then it was because he'd broken UN sanctions, then it was because he is a tyrant of whom his people need to be freed from. Now it just seems to be a mixture of all three.

First of all, I would like to say that there are numerous countries that are in breech of UN resolutions, but I don't see America and Britain going to war with them. And as for the human rights abuses, why isn't anyone commenting on how North Korean people are treated? And seeing as N. Korea is a far more unstable country IMO regarding WMD, why is nothing being done about them?

And what of all this oil? This seems to be rather a big factor in going into Iraq. Saudi Arabia is looking increasingly unstable, and it's possible that by securing Iraq's oil fields, it makes any action against Saudi Arabia all the easier. I'm not saying I necessarily believe this is the absolute motive for entering Iraq, I'd hope not even Balir and Bush would want to spill so much blood over oil.

As for Saddam releasing WMD in retaliation, I'm more worried about him releasing them on Israel, and then having Israel retaliate with nuclear weapons. Or even worse, if N Korea decides to take advantage of the situation and show off some of its nice new nuclear weapons.

What worries me most, though, is what happens to Iraq after it has been "liberated"? Who will there be to take over? It's not as if America and Britain are going to be able to produce a harmonious Iraq where the majority of the population agree who should become their new leader. And what of its effects elsewhere, the Middle East will undoubtedly become unsettled, if not verging on unstable.

Anyhoo, I've been going on for too long. But what I'd like to finish with is that this whole anti-French feeling I find quite unnerving. We're going back to the sort of Red Scare stage of "if you're not with us, you're against us". As well as the French, can 80% of the UK really be so wrong on this issue?

lithorose

03-18-2003, 06:21 PM

Well, I hardly know anyone that does support it here. I've personally run into three large anti-war protests in downtown Portland, but Portland is pretty liberal. All the hippies moved to Oregon and N. California after the sixties. Remember the WTO riots in Seattle a couple of years ago? All the instigators were from Eugene. They weren't even Seattlites.

Personally I don't care if french fry sales drop. McDonald's food isn't even digestable. And I think it's rather a silly form of protest. It's a completely powerless; how is pouring wine down the drain or not eating french fries going to convince the French of anything? It only wastes good wine (that's already been bought, anyway).

And when half of the radio stations in America are boycotting the Dixie Chicks because one of them said she was ashamed that Pres Bush was from Texas (silly reason to boycott!) and STILL boycotting them even after she apologizes.That just goes to show you how screwed up and manipulating the media is. Remember after 911 they took certain songs off the air, because they thought they were too traumatic? I remember they took one of Drowning Pool's songs off; haven't heard it once since then. Kinda liked it too. I think it's also hypocritical of the American people to think things are different now. I mean, it wasn't wrong to listen to a song about 'bodies in the pool' before 911, but it was after?

No. If you shouldn't listen to it after you shouldn't have listened to it before. Nothing changed. The media told us it did, but it didn't. After a week everyone was back in their comfortable lives in front of their comfortable televisions watching the same old crap, reliving their sorrows through that stupid little box. Sorry, I have strong feelings about this. I felt like I was slapped in the face after 911 by the general reaction to it. Felt like I was suddenly being forced to be patriotic, that if I didn't react in a certain way I was being 'Un-American', which really bites. Felt like I was supposed to go spend a bunch of money on anything with stars&stripes on it. How is spending money going to help us? That's (arguably) one of the things that got us into this mess. Felt like it was being imposed from on high, which is very un-American.

Ravenclaw

03-19-2003, 03:17 PM

And I quote directly from me new LJ...

Times are getting scarier and I might not have to do homework tonight afterall because the school might be closed tomorrow. God, I hate Bush too. I hate him and Sadam Hussain and Blair and whoever the heck else is screwing up this not-so-beautiful world. It's bad enough without you arguing about who has the bigger guns (wow, was that a bad analogy? lol). And though I am strongly against this war, you wouldn't find me out with those protesters because I don't like them either. I don't hate them, but I don't like them, because half of them don't even know what they're protesting against. They know they want peace, but we all want peace, even Bush wants peace. Most of those protesters (I'm generalizing. I admit, not all of them, but most) only know half the story. Bush isn't invading Iraq for friggin oil, we have enough of that already, and besides, OPEC is who he should attack if he wanted that, not Iraq.

To tell you the truth, I'm not fully informed either so I can't make a fully informed decision. I don't think anyone in the general public is fully informed, despite what they think. But using what I do know, I'm against this war on the whole.

Then again, Bush could be right. They could be hiding weapons and the question is, do you want to attack them now or do you want to wait for Iraq to bomb the States and THEN attack them?

Course Bush being right is a scary thought...

But seriously, look at September 11. The States had no idea, no idea (or at least I don't think they did) that anything like that was going to happen. Well now, Bush thinks he has an idea that something similar could happen again and all he's trying to do is stop it. Mind you, that's not all he's trying to do, but it's a large part of it.

The sad thing is, though, that because of all this and all those movies, some Americans (fewer than most, I know, most Americans I know aren't like this) but some Americans are completely racists towards all Middle Eastern peoples. And there are so many innocent men women and children who want nothing to do with any of this. And they're probably going to be the first victims of this terrible war that began long before today and will continue far into the future, whether Bush's demands are met or not.

For really, life in general is just one long never-ending battle, even when someone dies. And I guess the question is, which side are you on?

Fleurdelacour

03-19-2003, 03:32 PM

:hug: to Ravenclaw for living in Egypt :(

There was just a newsflash on the telly... 16 Iraqis have surrenderd...

*
Not to mention fries sales have gone down dramatically. And people are pouring their French wine down the drain and moving their vacations from Paris to Barcelona.

oh for goodness sake :rolleyes: Paris is the one place I want to go (and I'm going) Barcelona is nothing on Paris.... :rolleyes: Paris is the best.... No, the French aren't employing me as a tourism ambassador....

McDonald's food isn't even digestable

Exactly... It's disgusting... Their sales are going down over here anyway. Brits are getting into healthier food, so they intoduced all these low-fat fresh foods, salads, you know...

On everyones lips today, has been war. It doesn't look like Saddam is going to go into Exile :rolleyes:

So, we now need to support each other, support our troops and hope to God this is quick, with few casulties... :(

:hug: to everyone.

Colli

03-19-2003, 04:03 PM

Oh dear, time to sort through the comments. My concert was last night so I missed most of the news, but I heard about the buttload of Iraqis surrendering. :clap: Maybe this conflict won't last very long.

Remus:
I simply cannot agree with America and Britain's justification for war; especially without a second UN resolution. What I want to know is why does this war have to happen now? Why didn't Clinton go into Iraq 4 years ago when the weapon's inspectors were kicked out? Surely Saddam was showing himself to be more of a threat then than he is now.
Why do we need a second UN resolution? What is so bad about the first one? And we're never gonna to get a second with France showing their block-headed side. Last week, we actually had 10 votes.. enough to pass it. :trout: France. Why didn't Clinton go into Iraq? He had more important things to do inside his office. ;) Clinton turned a blind eye to what was going on and enjoyed riding on the good economic vibes. What a horrible president.
Neither Britain nor America seem to be sure why exactly they're going into Iraq
Do we have to decide on just one reason? Saddam's a threat and his people are suffering. That's why. About North Korea, they're on the news a lot too. We're keeping an eye on them, but I think right now we have our hands full with Saddam.
What worries me most, though, is what happens to Iraq after it has been "liberated"? Who will there be to take over?
What they're saying right now is the UN. Even though they've failed miserably this past decade.
"if you're not with us, you're against us". As well as the French, can 80% of the UK really be so wrong on this issue
The French can be wrong about everything. ;) But the first comment, we're annoyed at the French because we've pulled them out of SO many messes. They'd be German right now if it wasn't for us in WWII. They hate us anyway. We're sick of being Big Brother to France when they give absolutely nothing back to us. And now they're selling weapons to Iraq in exchange for cheap oil while WE try to make Iraq get rid of them. Sounds like they're our "enemy" because they're friends with our enemy. I'm sure if this war was happening in 2000 and 9-11 had happened to the Eiffel Tower or that bridge in London or something, most Americans wouldn't support it either. But we've realized something. We've realized we're not invincible anymore. And I don't think that's quite sunk in to the UK yet.

Ravenclaw: (congrats on the LJ! :clap: )
I have to admit your post kinda confused me. You're against the war even though you think Bush has a good reason for going in? Bless you on realizing that we're not after the oil.

About racism, some Americans (SOME) are. But I've never seen anyone who is. And maybe 98% of us aren't. We're just worried now when we see a Middle Eastern man walking down the street in a big city with his hand in his coat pocket. But aren't our fears justified? Most of the terrorism the past 10 years or so has BEEN from Middle Eastern people. I'm not saying we should be prejudiced against them, I'm saying our fears are justified.

FleurD: I think you knew this, but I wasn't mentioning the boycotts to endorse them, I was just listing them as proofs that most Americans do actually support the war. ;)
So, we now need to support each other, support our troops and hope to God this is quick, with few casulties...
I do very much agree with this. I just wish the anti-war protestors would suck it up and realize that we're going to war and start supporting our President and Tony Blair and whoever is leading the 30+ countries that are on our side so we can get on with it. A unified country stands a lot longer than a divided country.

~~~

I was much amused to watch the news yesterday and listen to the British House of Commons guys go "aye" and "nay".. or whatever they said. It was amusing. :D And "hear hear!". How excited! We don't do that here. ;)

:hug: Everyone.. pray for our troops. :)

Fleurdelacour

03-19-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Colli
I was much amused to watch the news yesterday and listen to the British House of Commons guys go "aye" and "nay".. or whatever they said. It was amusing. :D And "hear hear!". How excited! We don't do that here. ;)

That's exactly what I was thinking last night! Then again, I think that all the time... ;) It does sound hilarious though, all these MPs going "Nay!" and grunting, or John Prescott moving around so it looked like he was farting... Yes I watched it live, so sue me.

I'm going to stay up late again, to watch bbc news 24, to see war declared... :(

They'd be German right now if it wasn't for us in WWII

Maybe that's why the french are keeping out. They've had a tough run, a lot of wars. One of the most shocking images of WW2 for me was seeing Nazi troops march down the Champs Elysee, and Hitler standing by the Eiffle Tower... It was creepy... I'm sure the french may be paranoid or something.

But I'm biased, I love french customs and people. ;) It really is a wonderful country, they're not that bad :p

*

I just hope, once this war is over, there could be a treaty, a treaty all countries of the world could sign, agreeing to world peace... Then again, the UN was set up to prevent war, and look what happened there... :rolleyes:

Colli

03-19-2003, 04:35 PM

Yeah.. I was watching it yesterday afternoon and I was like "Wait.. isn't it like midnight there?" Why on earth did they meet so late?

France is just going to dig itself in deeper if it supports Iraq instead of Britain, the US, Spain, Portugal, Australia, etc. I don't know. Most of us don't really want France's help anymore, we just don't want them to stop us. Can't they just sit and stay out of it? Why do they have to be such pains in the butt?

Wait, how many wars has France won? The first rule of French warfare.... Nevermind. (inside joke to StarGazr ;))

Yeah, the French aren't that bad. Every American I know that's been there has been treated like crap. And they're not even annoying Americans. :p ;)

:hug:

Remus

03-19-2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Colli:
About racism, some Americans (SOME) are. But I've never seen anyone who is. And maybe 98% of us aren't. We're just worried now when we see a Middle Eastern man walking down the street in a big city with his hand in his coat pocket. But aren't our fears justified? Most of the terrorism the past 10 years or so has BEEN from Middle Eastern people. I'm not saying we should be prejudiced against them, I'm saying our fears are justified.

I'd like to respond to this by saying that here in the UK there's been a lot of terrorist acts committed by Northern Irish groups, but I don't know anyone who is wary in that sort of way about any Northern Irish people, even if they are walking down the street with their hand in their coat pocket. I know the type of terrorism employed by the IRA and all the numerous splinter groups that have formed from it is different from much of the extremist Islamic terrorism over the past few years, but it worries me greatly that these fears may turn into something more deep over time.

I do very much agree with this. I just wish the anti-war protestors would suck it up and realize that we're going to war and start supporting our President and Tony Blair and whoever is leading the 30+ countries that are on our side so we can get on with it.

I accept war is going to happen, and I have done for many months now. BUT, I will never agree with it, and I do not support the actions of Blair and Bush. I for one, will not stop protesting quite yet either. It pisses me off that it's come to this, that we have a PM who doesn't seem to even want to listen to the views of his population.

Do we have to decide on just one reason?

No, I don't think just one reason is needed, I was commenting more on the fact that I would prefer it if both Bush and Blair would be straight with us all about their reasons for going to war, I just feel they've been inconsistent. Yes, they want regime
change in Iraq, but why exactly? Is it because of the disregard UN sanctions, the fact that Saddam Hussein's a tyrant, he supposedly has WMD? What?

Like the rest of you, I hope that this war is quick. I hope that fewer civilians and troops are exposed to crap like depleted Uranium this time. The effects of which are being felt strongly both in Iraq, with people still being affected by cancer caused by radioactivity produced, and many troops seriously ill with Gulf War Syndrome.

As for the French, I don't know what their incentives were for threatening to veto any resolution, but that is still no reason to say they hate America. To say that because they're friends with the enemy it makes them your (America's) enemy seems unfair really. They don't seem to be particularly good friends with Saddam, same as Britain hasn't really been, even before this whole thing kicked off. I haven't once heard a French representative say they wouldn't support a war in Iraq, just that they would not support a war with Iraq so soon. I don't think Iraq has been given enough time. There is no evidence they've got any WMD and you can't prove a negative, so it's incredibly difficult for them to prove they have got rid of the weapons they possessed a few years ago.

This truly is a sad time :(

:hug: to all

Colli

03-19-2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Remus
I'd like to respond to this by saying that here in the UK there's been a lot of terrorist acts committed by Northern Irish groups, but I don't know anyone who is wary in that sort of way about any Northern Irish people, even if they are walking down the street with their hand in their coat pocket. I know the type of terrorism employed by the IRA and all the numerous splinter groups that have formed from it is different from much of the extremist Islamic terrorism over the past few years, but it worries me greatly that these fears may turn into something more deep over time.

I accept war is going to happen, and I have done for many months now. BUT, I will never agree with it, and I do not support the actions of Blair and Bush. I for one, will not stop protesting quite yet either. It pisses me off that it's come to this, that we have a PM who doesn't seem to even want to listen to the views of his population.

No, I don't think just one reason is needed, I was commenting more on the fact that I would prefer it if both Bush and Blair would be straight with us all about their reasons for going to war, I just feel they've been inconsistent. Yes, they want regime
change in Iraq, but why exactly? Is it because of the disregard UN sanctions, the fact that Saddam Hussein's a tyrant, he supposedly has WMD? What?

Like the rest of you, I hope that this war is quick. I hope that fewer civilians and troops are exposed to crap like depleted Uranium this time. The effects of which are being felt strongly both in Iraq, with people still being affected by cancer caused by radioactivity produced, and many troops seriously ill with Gulf War Syndrome.

As for the French, I don't know what their incentives were for threatening to veto any resolution, but that is still no reason to say they hate America. To say that because they're friends with the enemy it makes them your (America's) enemy seems unfair really. They don't seem to be particularly good friends with Saddam, same as Britain hasn't really been, even before this whole thing kicked off. I haven't once heard a French representative say they wouldn't support a war in Iraq, just that they would not support a war with Iraq so soon. I don't think Iraq has been given enough time. There is no evidence they've got any WMD and you can't prove a negative, so it's incredibly difficult for them to prove they have got rid of the weapons they possessed a few years ago.

This truly is a sad time :(

:hug: to all

I wasn't saying France hates us is connected with the war.. they've always rather disliked us.

I don't know about Tony Blair, but I think Bush has been straight. And I don't think Bush listing multiple reasons for going to war is inconsistent. He's made it pretty well clear that we're going in to liberate the Iraqis and to get rid of his weapons so he can't nuke our butts.

I personally am SICK of people saying Iraq hasn't been given enough time. They've had 12 years. They haven't made one motion to get rid of any weapons except for the Al-Samoud missiles. And the day they started destroying those, Saddam called for the production of more.

Need more time my arse. Remus, do you SERIOUSLY think Saddam is over there working his butt off trying to prove they've gotten rid of their weapons? That's what the whole UN resolution 1441 was about. It doesn't take 12 years to get rid of those weapons. They won't even let Hans Blix search unconditionally.. it's just like last time. All Saddam is going to do with more time is better prepare himself for the war.

[/rant]

:hug:

ChianaWeasley

03-19-2003, 07:59 PM

Im so sick of all this war!
And now there saying all these troops are marching to their death, and innocent people are in danger. I dont understand it! Why cant everyone just get along for once? All war is, is an act of terrorism. Everyone around here is on their toes waiting, anxious. Theres a boy in my vlass who's being shipped off soon, and another farmer boy who keep saying "gonna shoot me some dune coons!"
It's people like them that create war, and they want to fight!:eek:
I agree with Colli, I accept the fact it's going to happen, but I will never agree with us going to war.
::jumps up and down in frustration::
Is there something I DONT understand? Am I the only who thinks this is a bad idea?
grr

StarGazr

03-19-2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by ChianaWeasley
Is there something I DONT understand? Am I the only who thinks this is a bad idea?
grr

No, sweetie... thinking that this shouldn't happen is not a bad thing. I was talking to Colli this afternoon, and she encouraged me to post here... even though I don't know what to say... so I'm just winging it.
I was living at college in 2001. I woke up on 9/11 to go to classes around 9am... rushed to class, only to find the televisions on all over the building, and hundreds of students in a state of utter shock. Whenever I sit and think about that day, I realize that I went to bed on 9/10 and when I woke up the next morning, the world had changed... overnight
What's going to happen tomorrow? Or the next day? Are we going to wake up once again to a changed world, where bombs are exploding and innocent people are dying? Or are we going to get up, go to school, work, be with out children, and go to bed again, wondering if tomorrow is the day?
There's a song by Billy Joel that starts "They say that these are not the best of times/ but they're time I've ever known." I'm twenty years old, I remember the Gulf War. Vaguely, but I remember it being on television, and I remember my parents saying, when it was over, that it wasn't really over. What am I going to be telling my children in ten years? Is it really over? Will this ever really be over? These are the only times I've ever known.

OK, so I've gone on for a lil bit... and made no point... but isn't that the point? That there is no point...

ChianaWeasley

03-19-2003, 10:05 PM

I understand what your saying star. I just am frustrated thats all. And they say it will be short and sweet, but alas they've said that for the past two wars haven't they? The president didn't come on tonight, I thought he was supposed to. But they've all but said what he's already going to say.
But looking optimistically, maybe it will be short, maybe saddam will be kicked out of power, and the people will be liberated. I guess all we can do is hope. And I'm hoping for the best :)

lithorose

03-19-2003, 11:29 PM

:hug: for Chiana and Ravenclaw-
I was twelve when the Gulf War started. Every adult I knew was convinced it was the beginning of Armageddon, and that Saddam Hussein was the Anti-Christ. (No joke.) I was convinced the world was going to end, not so much from bombs as from the Final Judgement. For some reason I was convinced it was always going to happen on my way home from school. I'd be sitting in the bus, and boom! The clouds would part and it would all be over and I'd be standing before God having to account for all my sins. You know, I just realized I've never told this to anyone before. Anyway I'm not sure what my point is in saying this, but I was a lot more scared of God's judgement than I was of nuclear bombs.

On the morning of 911, I remember hearing the radio through my sleep and realized that something major had happened since they were saying the airports were all shut. I turned on the tv and the first thing I saw was the twin towers on fire. The first thought that ran through my head was: "OMG, we're at war!"(this was before anyone knew who was responsible for it). I had to go to work that day; it was pretty weird. They had called in all the weekend security guards, and no one could think straight. But then we didn't go to war (who would we go to war with?). But now we are. (On a side note one of the things that disturbed me the most was the similarity of one of the camera shots of people running up the streets in Manhattan to that scene in Independence Day; what does that say about our movies and what we're exposing ourselves to as entertainment?)

And no, I don't buy the oil argument either.

"Why didn't Clinton go into Iraq 4 years ago when the weapon's inspectors were kicked out?"
That's a good question; there's a lot of things Clinton could have done but didn't (I'm no big fan of his). He let a lot of things slide during his term.

In the interest of fairness, France hasn't lost every war it's ever fought. Charlemagne won almost all of Europe (nevermind that he wasn't actually French). Napoleon won almost all of Europe (and then he overstepped his bounds; and nevermind that he wasn't French either;)) And they did help us win the Revolutionary War. They're allowed to have their own opinions and do as they see right I think.

"Most of the terrorism the past 10 years or so has BEEN from Middle Eastern people."
Some of it was homegrown; Oklahoma City was pretty bad at the time, and it turned out to be Americans; the Unabomber was American. Most of the attacks I can think of were American except the two WTC ones.

"gonna shoot me some dune coons!"
That's a really horrible thing to say about anyone; sounds like such an idiot! That's a word that should never be used about anyone!! :mad::mad::mad:

I understand that there may be really good reasons for going to war; and I'm not opposed to it in principle, but I don't feel that there is a good understanding among people as to why we're going to war, and I think that's a really bad idea. That's one of the things that made Vietnam such a mess; soldiers were going over there without any real clear idea of why, and people at home were protesting it, and when they came back a lot of them had really bad emotional scars, and people weren't thankful of their having fought because no one understood why we were there. I really don't want to see this turn into another Vietnam.:(

Rivenlas

03-19-2003, 11:36 PM

I'd like to start by saying I support this war. I am taking a class that deals entirely in the affairs of the world so I feel fairly informed on what is happening. In fact, I even wrote a paper on it.
The world is really dealing with a situation that may have no positive outcome, although I do sincerely hope and believe it will all be for the best in the end. I don't like gambling with the lives of Americans--I like to know the exact outcome of a situation before millions of people are involved. But this time we cannot.
I feel that if we do not do something, we will be inviting another 9/11, and that cannot happen again. So I feel that the best course of action would definitely be to go into Iraq and take out Saddam. I do not feel we should have given him the 48 hour period to leave. I fear that if he does, he and his sons will become a driving force behind some major terrorist activities, and I am not sure we should take that risk. So I am glad Saddam did not pull out.
The man is crazy. Before 911, I watched a special on him, and he has a disorder where everything he touches has to be clean. He has to have things handed to him wrapped in a napkin or something like it so he will not have germs. Can a man like this be trusted to make wise decisions for his country? I think not. And he has proven it, killing his own people and testing chemical weapons on them. I have seen too many pictures.
And his eldest son is worse than he. I would give more information but I am not sure how much would be allowed on a G site so I will say torture and let your minds supply the rest.
I am concerned about the loss of life the US may suffer in Baghdad, especially because many people from my school and in my class are going into the army. I hope that Saddam does not revert to chemical warfare, but I fear he will. But even that will have its unseen advantages--France has said if it comes to that they will take up our cause.
One other fear I have is that we are overlooking something, that our troops will go down there and be brutally murdered. Although that is hardly likely, sometimes I feel the leader of Iraq knows something we do not.
I feel this war is just one step in eliminating terrorism. While we are far from it, I think it is something extremely important if we want to try.

North Korea is as bad as Iraq. I believe about 5% of their population resides in prison camps (think Nazi Germany). Almost all their people suffer from malnutrition, and the only supply there is an excess of is a particularly liquor. And the liquor is like a poison but the government likes to supply it because they want the country to forget their troubles.
Their army, however, is huge and well-fed. Men join the army because it is the only place they can get adequate amounts of food.
North Korea's leader is crazy as well. He denies his people a 'real' look at what is going on in the world. They have government media, can't watch American movies, drink American liquor, or go on the internet. However, their leader, Kim Jong il, loves these things and delights in them regularly while his people starve. The worst thing about this man is that he has nuclear weapons, so he must be dealt with very, very carefully. Unfortunately, we cannot deal with him through his people because they love him. They do not know anything else, so they do not know any better.

So what to do? In my opinion, it is best to be supportive of our governments. They may know a little more than we do.

lithorose

03-20-2003, 12:03 AM

The man is crazy. Before 911, I watched a special on him, and he has a disorder where everything he touches has to be clean. He has to have things handed to him wrapped in a napkin or something like it so he will not have germs.If I was a totalitarian dictator I probably would too; that alone doesn't make him crazy, though I think he is. Not crazy so much as mad, and no, I don't think he cares anything for his people.

Not every country needs to be like America and allow American things in. There's a fine difference between allowing the people to choose their own fate and pushing our philosophy on them. If North Koreans (or many Middle Eastern societies) believe internet (for example) is bad then who are we to come and tell them differently? But I'm not justifying dictatorships either. I just think it's something that should be kept in mind when deciding foreign policy.

Moregan

03-20-2003, 06:17 AM

Rivenlas said of Saddam Hussein:
The man is crazy
and then
North Korea's leader is crazy as well. Oh right. The problems are because some countries have crazy leaders. And US America doesn't?
Rivenlas said:
He denies his people a 'real' look at what is going on in the world. They have government media, can't watch American movies, drink American liquor, or go on the internet. So are we to imply from that that being able to consume American cultural products is getting a 'real' look at the world?
lithorose said:
Not every country needs to be like America and allow American things in. There's a fine difference between allowing the people to choose their own fate and pushing our philosophy on them. Quite. :clap:

I'm going to repeat what I put on CoE here, and put again an extract from a book that I'm reading right now (the book relates to childbirth, actually, but this comment is interesting in the current context. It says, "'The control myth', the myth that we have choice, leads people to believe that they are free ... it also places responsibility for the down-side of the world on the individual and not on structures of power. The illusion of freedom is a powerful control mechanism."

And okay, talking about malnutrition. Anyone have the figures on the percentage of people in US America who are malnourished? Or who live in ghetto prison camps? Or who drink to forget their troubles? Or who don't have access to health care because they can't afford it? I'm just wondering.

And anyone wonder whether the problems that exist in non-western societies might just possibly have a teensy weensy bit to do with our excessive western consumption?

Please, Rivenlas :hug: don't think I'm getting at you personally. I'm not. I'm just using your words, and lithorose's to help me in a quick way towards highlighting and expressing some of my concerns and views on what is happening.

Ravenclaw

03-20-2003, 07:09 AM

I'm not justifying Bush's actions, Colli... Though now that I think about it, that's how it sounds... No, no, all I'm saying is I understand his mentality, but I do still think he's acting rashly. As I said, I don't have enough information to make a fully informed decision.

My friend pointed out that some military intelligence people knew about 9/11 but chose to ignore it as a hoax... For some reason, I don't think the military would dismiss something like that as a hoax. Then again, Military Intelligence is one of the biggest oxymorons I've heard for a while...

I think everyone who has spoken on the new recently has gone bonkers. Blaire and Bush and Saddam and everyone, they're all crazy. Well, maybe not Colin Powell, but whatever... No, no, they're all crazy. Nuts, I can't think straight.

I'm sitting at home today on Thursday when I should be at school and my Dad is on shifts! It's insane! I still say Egypt's safer than the States at this point in time... Though that may change.

Argh, I hate westernization. True, it does give ME certain bennefits in this forign land, but I agree with litherose and Moregan. Differnt cultures are good and diversity is one of human kind's greatest assets. Let's not destroy it in hopes to 'better' the 'uncivilized' world. Because in doing that, we'd be no better than those European colonists, who treated everyone else so terribly...

America is a world power and not a very good one, if I may say so. If we had better government officials than the ones we've had of late, we might be admired instead of feared and scorned. I don't like where my country is heading, because I don't KNOW where my country is heading, but I do know it's not anywhere good. And the American people, especially those who haven't left their state, have such a skewed view of things! I know someone here who said when she lived in the States, she watched the news and thought she was pretty well aware of the world around her. But when she moved to Egypt, she realized many of the things she had thought was based on faulty information and half-truths and most of her opinions she had held previously were based on these. It turns out, she's now ashamed of her old opinions and adopted a whole new life with open arms.

Now I'm not saying Americans are stupid, because they aren't, they're a really smart people with a fascinating history and an astounding amount of pride and understanding. But I just feel that they're being played, like someone's keeping them from the truth. Or that someone is shaping their opinions or something.

And not all Americans are like this at all. Even some kids who've grown up in a small town their whole life can base their opinions on truths and most of this comes from their parents, who may be well-traveled or whatever... But please, no one take offense to this.

Also, America is just one big collage of multiple cultures! Like New York, for example. There are so many ethnic groups in that city alone... You can't persecute one group of people because you THINK they're dangerous just because of their background or ethnicity.

Colli, I've met plenty of predjudice Americans in my time. And I'm still just a teenager. A well-aware teenager, but a teenager nonetheless.

There I go, though. Perhaps I'm not as aware as I think. Maybe there are still veils in front of my eyes that need to be lifted. But I'd like to think I have a good understanding of things.

Another friend of mine said if a friend of hers from Montanna saw a group of Arabs walking towards her casually down the street with their hands in their jackets, she'd cross the street. Now, my friend said she'd walk right by them and say hello in Arabic or something. And really, what is the difference between a group of Arabs walking down the streets "reaching into their jackets" as you put it, and a group of caucasians with blond hair also reaching into their jackets? They could merely be reaching for their wallet, not... Oh well, you see my point.

I understand when you say you feel justified to be a little worried when you see an Arab or something. And I kinda agree with that... keep your worryings, as long as no one gets hurt. But the other part of me is not understanding what you say. The way you put it, it's like the same justification you have for feeling nervous when you see a gang of skinheads coming your way. And it's not. In the past 10 years, Arabs aren't the only ones responsible for terrorism. Some, yes, not all. Africans, Europeans, Mexicans... Does that give you the right to be scared of everyone you see walking down the street? It's useless paranoia if you ask me.

A kid in my class got evac-ed on Tuesday. He was Israeli and why he's going back to Israel is beyond me! If it's not safer than the States right now, Egypt is definately safer than Israel.

OK, I think I'm done.

Elfëa

03-20-2003, 10:12 AM

I have now only skimmed through your posts, but, because, we are at war now, I'm going to participate this conversation.

I'd like to know Why Bush has the right to remove other country's leader? What gives him and America (and the countries that support them 30 of 140 (or more...) in the world?)

I'm against this war. I am against George Bush. I am against killing people with no reason. "Free them". But who asked to be freed?

Also, the soldiers who participate, are quilty. They [pi]may[/i] not let their weapons down, but they can. As 16 Iraquees have done.

And, why are we going to war against country, if it's the leader who's crazy? If we're going to free the people, why don't we kill the leader. (If there has to be killing. Well, that's kinda good way to decrease world's population actually...)

I have heard loads of American opinions, when I read through people's livejournals - "Kill the Muslims". As if, "kill the spare", kill those who aren't like us. That's something I cannot understand - the western world that idolizes uniqueness, is racist against it's own standards.

I have friends (Raven, Anarie) who live countries where the war is visible in daily life - here, I haven't yet seen a sign. Even our university is neutral at the moment. (Tomorrow's emergency meeting will tell, as we'll vote for and against anti-war.)

I ask you, who are pro-war, would you be willing to accept invasion from a country, where people generally think you're scum (yes, that's sadly true) to "free" you?
I don't think so.

I know my history books - Finland had "civil" war 1918, that has never been named. The war was the most bloodiest civil war in Europe ever.
And it both sides were fighting agaisnt different things, they weren't fighting each other.

But which side you call evil? Which side is good? There is no such thing as good and evil, unless you believe in Bible/Koran/something else that defines them precisely. (that's why I see religion as bad thing - have you ever heard of a suicide-bomber who isn't religious?). But on this war, can you say which side is good? Yours? Of course its your side the good one, you're on it, after all...
And you're not evil, aren't you? (I'm sorry, I know I'm rambling, but this is really heavy load on my chest. I cannot understand this war.)

glaelia argued on her lj:
every child at least knows the difference between good and evil!

There is no such thing as good and evil. There are morals which are taught to us by community - our parents, our enviroment. They aren't in our blood. We have insticts in our blood, but no definitions for good and evil. We are taught to believe. And only few are capable to see beoynd the boundaries that society, ideologies and culture set.
People try their limits to know inside the society. Punishment shows where being good ends to a kid. Some people never grow up. But, they do mean to do it (talking about murderers) - they just don't understand the consequences. Society has decided killing is wrong.
But who are we decide our society and culture is better than others?

I cannot judge, because I'm quilty as well.
-my own words.

Ravenclaw

03-20-2003, 02:53 PM

Wow, Elfea, you sound angry. Mind if I just rifle through your post a minute?

Originally posted by Elfëa
I'd like to know Why Bush has the right to remove other country's leader? What gives him and America (and the countries that support them 30 of 140 (or more...) in the world?)

I'm against this war. I am against George Bush. I am against killing people with no reason. "Free them". But who asked to be freed?

OK, first of all, America has always had the "right" to stick its nose into other people's business. It's been doing that for two hundred years. Second of all, more than half the Iraqi population is against Saddam Hussien and his tyrany. ANd believe me, he's one hard guy to kill. Third of all, this war isn't just starting, it's started long ago, and who knows when it will be finished.

Also, the soldiers who participate, are quilty. They [pi]may[/i] not let their weapons down, but they can. As 16 Iraquees have done.

That goes back to my opinion-shaping conspiracy theory. I don't think a single one of those soldiers (OK, maybe a few) is guilty of anything you accuse them of (though as you said, no one is ever truly innocent). Most of them don't want to go to war as much as the next person. Some others do, but it's all propaganda and brainwashing. Some might know what's really going on and feel like they should go to war, others might know what's going on and feel against it. There is also the fact that they have to follow orders. I live around military people every day and getting 'dishonerable discharge' is like commiting a felony to these people. It's horrendous and everyone looks at you and treats you as if you're a criminal.

"Their's not to make reply, their's not to reason why, their's but to do and die," ~ Charge of the Light Brigade (someone remind me who it's by please!)

And, why are we going to war against country, if it's the leader who's crazy? If we're going to free the people, why don't we kill the leader. (If there has to be killing. Well, that's kinda good way to decrease world's population actually...)

As I've said, Saddam Hussein is a tough guy to kill.

I have heard loads of American opinions, when I read through people's livejournals - "Kill the Muslims". As if, "kill the spare", kill those who aren't like us. That's something I cannot understand - the western world that idolizes uniqueness, is racist against it's own standards.

I bet you have, I bet you have! I have too! That was part of what I was trying to say to Colli (sorry, Colli, I know you would never ever say anything like that. But I've heard other people say it, I was just irritated, you know?) And I hate it. I really do, it's the biggest pet peeve (understatement of the year) for me. Argh, it makes my blood boil when people do things like that. I hate it.

I have friends (Raven, Anarie) who live countries where the war is visible in daily life - here, I haven't yet seen a sign. Even our university is neutral at the moment. (Tomorrow's emergency meeting will tell, as we'll vote for and against anti-war.)

Aye.

But which side you call evil? Which side is good? There is no such thing as good and evil, unless you believe in Bible/Koran/something else that defines them precisely. (that's why I see religion as bad thing - have you ever heard of a suicide-bomber who isn't religious?). But on this war, can you say which side is good? Yours? Of course its your side the good one, you're on it, after all...
And you're not evil, aren't you? (I'm sorry, I know I'm rambling, but this is really heavy load on my chest. I cannot understand this war.)

glaelia argued on her lj:

There is no such thing as good and evil. There are morals which are taught to us by community - our parents, our enviroment. They aren't in our blood. We have insticts in our blood, but no definitions for good and evil. We are taught to believe. And only few are capable to see beoynd the boundaries that society, ideologies and culture set.
People try their limits to know inside the society. Punishment shows where being good ends to a kid. Some people never grow up. But, they do mean to do it (talking about murderers) - they just don't understand the consequences. Society has decided killing is wrong.
But who are we decide our society and culture is better than others?

There has never been a clear cut between good and evil, nothing is ever black and white. Everything is gray. Each story has two sides to it, yes, even the suicide bombers and terrorists (though frankly, I'm not too interested in their side of the story because they disgust me.) In war and battle, there is no such thing as good and evil. To a soldier, there is you, and what you have been told to do by and for your country, who has brainwashed you into thinking that your country is all you have and all you need. A soldier knows that the man he has shot has done him no wrong. He knows that the man lying at his feet was someone's son and maybe someone's wife or father or brother. And the dying man knows that it was nothing personal, it was just what he was told to do.

I live around marines, have my whole life. They're a happy and lighthearted group, whose always up for a game or kareoke. But in battle, things are completely different. They're alone and scared and guilty. You can never rid yourself of that terrible feeling of knowing you were responsible for taking a man's life, despite what the propaganda tell you. This is why I am not joining the army.

Our own conscience is our very own personal sense of good an evil. Your parents and your teachers can only influence you so much. You do the rest. Some say intelligence is what seperates the man from the beast. I believe it's that nagging voice in the back of your head you can either choose to ignore or choose to acknowlege. Instinct tells us to do what's best for ourselves. Our conscience reminds us we should try and do what's best for others. Human emotions are what seperate us from animals.

Believe me, only a madman doesn't understand the consequences. Only a madman doesn't care. When you lose your conscience, you lose your sanity, and you begin to act like an ape again, with only instinct of self-preservation in mind.

The Bible and the Koran are reasons people have come up with to justify what they are doing, have done, or are going to do. It's something to put a man's mind at rest.

Frankly, I think I like Islam more than Christianity, though I would never become Muslim because A) I'm not into organized religion and B) It's way too much work to be an active practicing Muslim.

The Islamic beliefs are fascinatingly peacefull. Anyone else who has studied the religion as much as I have will know that suicide bombers are doing the exact opposite of what the Koran dictates. Christians and Jews, to the Muslims, are "People of the Book." For Judaisim, Christianity and Islam all have the same roots and belief and pray to the same God. But they have different saints or "messangers of God" that they believe in, like Mohammed or Jesus Christ. Islam is a very forgiving religion, IMO more forgiving than Christianity. One the 'five pillars' and rules is to be kind to the old and the poor. ANd to respect the People of the Book. Which is why I really admire Islam. But another pillar is to pray five times a day, an I can't do that.

I think I'm done now... Wow, I really have a lot to say about all this.

Fleurdelacour

03-20-2003, 03:23 PM

So, war is here. Who'd ever think that? We're actually at war, and it makes me weep :(

You've all made wonderful posts, even if I don't agree with them.

Today our school had a protest, it was peaceful, until the teachers and nuns stopped us and expelled two girls for saying "NO WAR!" during lunch.

I have nothing interesting or intelligent to say, so you can just dismiss this post and roll your eyes, but isn't America slightly hypocritical? Today in History we studied the Arms Race between USSR and the USA, the development of all those atomic bombs, trying to out do each other :rolleyes: Did other powerful countries like Britian and France demand weapon inspectors rummage the usa and the ussr? No. So what gave the usa the right to go to war with Iraq, then drag along the Brits.

Why are the Brits getting involved?! 80% of us do not want war. There have been hundereds of protests. We're a tiny little country in North Europe that's been through the mill... Sure, we're Allies with America, but we need to look after ourselves too...

OK, first of all, America has always had the "right" to stick its nose into other people's business. It's been doing that for two hundred years.

Why has America had the right? What has America done that's so amazing that they can stick their noses in?

I hope I'm not offending anyone, didn't sleep much last night (watching the news, listening to the radio) then woke up with the flu, so, I'm talking complete rubbish...

Ravenclaw

03-20-2003, 03:47 PM

Heh. If anyone should be offensive, it's me. Going around, critisizing my own culture.

I put the word 'right' in quotations for a reason. I was making a small joke. America has always been nosey when it came to the affairs of other countries. Therefor, they think they have the right to do it again.

Do I have a large vocabulary for my age? Cause I was talking to this girl who asked if I was over 18 and said no... She said I had a big vocabulary...

But that was horribly off topic.

ON TOPIC again, I was browsing the AOL message boards today and there were at least two posts from little 11 and 12 year old girls, who both said they needed reassurance cause they were scared. I couldn't tell them the truth about what I thought. So what else could I do but tell them nothing was going to happen to them and that they were perfectly safe in their American home?

Actually, I didn't say anything. Because I couldn't bring myself to tell them more half-truths. The media has already been filling their heads with too many of those.

I feel sorry for the children. If kids in the states are scared, think about those kids in Iraq! How terrible! It's not like I could tell these girls that they didn't need to be afraid for themselves, but for those poor kids in the Middle East. Because they're worse off than those girls.

Oh, what a terrible thought!

ChianaWeasley

03-20-2003, 05:02 PM

I dont think people over here look at it that way, their just people to be destroyed becuase their from Iraq. They dont care that they are people, they just want them dead. :mad: If we were in their place they'd be pissing themselves, praying for mercy from the enemy. ::sigh:: When will people learn?

Ravenclaw

03-20-2003, 05:13 PM

No... No, I don't think their mentality has been THAT badly manipulated. Children are children, and they are the most innocent creatures you can find in the human race. Sure there's racism, but it doesn't run that deep and doesn't spread to that many minds.

Nyliram

03-20-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by ChianaWeasley
I dont think people over here look at it that way, their just people to be destroyed becuase their from Iraq. They dont care that they are people, they just want them dead.

How can you make such a general sweeping statement about an entire country? It's not fair, and it's not true.

Moregan

03-20-2003, 05:53 PM

Ravenclaw said:
Children are children, and they are the most innocent creatures you can find in the human race. Sure there's racism, but it doesn't run that deep and doesn't spread to that many minds. Hmmmm. Well, I'm in England, and I'm ashamed to say that here, in my experience, we still have racism, despite a LOT of education to combat it - and yes, children are offenders too. As much as they are about ... oh, what would the word be ... homosexualism? Anyway, prejudiced against same sex relationships.

But then ... they take on the values of their parents :(

Ravenclaw, irrespective of whether I agree or not, I think your posts are good :)

Colli

03-20-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by lithorose
:hug: for Chiana and Ravenclaw-
I was twelve when the Gulf War started. Every adult I knew was convinced it was the beginning of Armageddon, and that Saddam Hussein was the Anti-Christ. (No joke.) I was convinced the world was going to end, not so much from bombs as from the Final Judgement. For some reason I was convinced it was always going to happen on my way home from school. I'd be sitting in the bus, and boom! The clouds would part and it would all be over and I'd be standing before God having to account for all my sins. You know, I just realized I've never told this to anyone before. Anyway I'm not sure what my point is in saying this, but I was a lot more scared of God's judgement than I was of nuclear bombs.

On the morning of 911, I remember hearing the radio through my sleep and realized that something major had happened since they were saying the airports were all shut. I turned on the tv and the first thing I saw was the twin towers on fire. The first thought that ran through my head was: "OMG, we're at war!"(this was before anyone knew who was responsible for it). I had to go to work that day; it was pretty weird. They had called in all the weekend security guards, and no one could think straight. But then we didn't go to war (who would we go to war with?). But now we are. (On a side note one of the things that disturbed me the most was the similarity of one of the camera shots of people running up the streets in Manhattan to that scene in Independence Day; what does that say about our movies and what we're exposing ourselves to as entertainment?)

And no, I don't buy the oil argument either.

"Why didn't Clinton go into Iraq 4 years ago when the weapon's inspectors were kicked out?"
That's a good question; there's a lot of things Clinton could have done but didn't (I'm no big fan of his). He let a lot of things slide during his term.

In the interest of fairness, France hasn't lost every war it's ever fought. Charlemagne won almost all of Europe (nevermind that he wasn't actually French). Napoleon won almost all of Europe (and then he overstepped his bounds; and nevermind that he wasn't French either;)) And they did help us win the Revolutionary War. They're allowed to have their own opinions and do as they see right I think.

I understand that there may be really good reasons for going to war; and I'm not opposed to it in principle, but I don't feel that there is a good understanding among people as to why we're going to war, and I think that's a really bad idea. That's one of the things that made Vietnam such a mess; soldiers were going over there without any real clear idea of why, and people at home were protesting it, and when they came back a lot of them had really bad emotional scars, and people weren't thankful of their having fought because no one understood why we were there. I really don't want to see this turn into another Vietnam.:(
I really appreciate your comments, lithorose. They're well thought-out and heartfelt. I stand corrected about my generalization about terrorism in the Middle East, but I still feel our fears are justified.

"gonna shoot me some dune coons!".. I missed that my first time around. That was REALLY rude.

I'm still holding my opinions about France. Now don't get me wrong.. I'm not going to stop watching Moulin Rouge and I don't hate French people, I just strongly disagree with Jacques Churac or whatever his name is. And I disagree with France as a country, and their "morals".

I was only a small kid when the Gulf War happened, and I was more concerned with moving to a whole new state than War. In fact, I don't think I even knew what the war was until 4 or so years ago. Too recent to be in history books, too old to be talked about extensively in the news.

But I don't think this will turn into another Vietnam. Our soldiers know why they're going, and they're eager and excited, albeit scared. I'm in direct correspondence with several, one whose base was the main target of the missiles launched at Kuwait a few days ago. Plus they've done away with the draft.. no one has to go that doesn't want to.

Moregan:
Oh right. The problems are because some countries have crazy leaders. And US America doesn't?
No, we don't. I really don't appreciate that comment about our President, who's perfectly sane. Drawing parallels between Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong il, and President Bush is entirely inappropriate, and I wonder just how much you know about him. Do you draw your opinions based on other opinions or based on fact? Does President Bush tortute us? Rape us? Use poisonous gas on us? Do we have to have a portrait of him on every street corner? Does he forbid us to speak against him? Do we "vote" in elections that only have his name on the ballot. Are our lives and our families' lives threatened if we DON'T vote for him?
So are we to imply from that that being able to consume American cultural products is getting a 'real' look at the world? I don't think that's what Rivenlas meant.. perhaps her comment could have been worded better. The point is, they're isolating their citizens.. not letting them experience the rest of the world, forcing this enclosed life on people who should be free to decide what they want to do.

Ravenclaw:
Also, America is just one big collage of multiple cultures! Like New York, for example. There are so many ethnic groups in that city alone... You can't persecute one group of people because you THINK they're dangerous just because of their background or ethnicity.
But most Americans aren't "persecuting" that group of people, we're just wary of them. Actually acting like that against them based on their race is wrong. I have a friend who's from India.. and he's harmless. So is his family, they're all very nice. But I reserve the right to feel a little nervous when I see a bearded Middle Eastern man at the airport. I'm not gonna call the police or anything. ;) It may be useless paranoia, but so is arachnaphobia, claustraphobia, agoraphobia.... ;)

OK, first of all, America has always had the "right" to stick its nose into other people's business. It's been doing that for two hundred years.
Why has America had the right? What has America done that's so amazing that they can stick their noses in?
Not to mention France, England, etc were doing it hundreds - if not thousands - of years before us. War wasn't invented by America, you know.
sorry, Colli, I know you would never ever say anything like that
:hug: I know you know that, it's all right. MOST Americans
wouldn't say that, actually. You all just aren't seeing a proportional cross section of the country.

Amen, Maz.

Chiana, I appreciate that you are giving your opinion, I just wish you'd get a little more informed before you do so.

I apologize for not responding to all the comments... there just isn't TIME. (Need one of those time turners ;)). I hope I've expressed my feelings as strongly as I feel them.. and still not offended anyone. But the truth is, I'm offended by some of the comments. Diversity isn't all it's cracked up to be. :(

:hug: everyone. I really don't think this war will last long..

(edit)
Hmmmm. Well, I'm in England, and I'm ashamed to say that here, in my experience, we still have racism, despite a LOT of education to combat it - and yes, children are offenders too. As much as they are about ... oh, what would the word be ... homosexualism? Anyway, prejudiced against same sex relationships.
I don't believe in homosexuality. I don't believe it's right, and I don't want to see it. But I'll be hanged before someone calls me a racist because I think it's wrong. That's not prejudice, that's believing something is wrong. Prejudice would be something like "I don't like her BECAUSE she's a homosexual". And most kids aren't like that.

Ravenclaw

03-20-2003, 06:06 PM

Homosexuality, Moregan. ;)

Yeah, Children are predjudice, when they're old enough to form opinions. But what I mean is, people don't want to kill ALL Iraqis (well, not most of them anyway) and especially not the children. I think one thing Elfea and I agree on is that no one is totally innocent, but a child is as close to innocence as you can get in this race.

And :hug:s Colli! I'm sorry I offended you! :(

ANother :hug: for good measure!

Good luck all!

(edit)

Oh dear, so soon after I apologized, I have to pick on Colli again!

:hug: beforehand!

Now I can't condemn you for how you feel and I consider you a friend. But I can say that there are a lot of people like that. Kids on my bus said they'd disown their son if he told them he was gay. Said they'd break their friendship with someone who was gay. And I in turn said I would break my friendship with someone who broke their friendship with a homosexual.

OK, enough said.

:hug: Colli, I'm so sorry!

Colli

03-20-2003, 06:09 PM

:hug: You weren't one of them. At least, I don't think. It takes so long to read it all that I can't really remember who said what. ;)

And I know I've probably offended people, but I guess that's just that. :hug: to any of you that I've bothered.

lithorose

03-20-2003, 06:18 PM

Rav, 'Charge of the Light Brigade' is Tennyson. (Gotta love the Norton Anthology;))

A lot of people expect teenagers to be stupid and ill-informed. But it's simply not true. True, a lot of teenagers don't care about politics and religion and such, but a lot of them do. I did. Most of my friends in high school did. Just because you are under 18 doesn't mean you can't express yourself intelligently and articulately. Not having practical experience isn't the same as not being able to think through the issues.

I really don't think any country (or a collection of countries) has the right to come in and remove its leaders just because it doesn't like them. It has always bothered me about the way the US has done this over the years. I will make an exception if that leader is trying to take over other countries, like Hitler, or killing its own people, again like Hitler, or a couple other cases of extreme oppression, where the people don't have enough voice to cry out for help. But other than that I believe it is up to each country to take its fate in its own hands. And it bothers me how the US will pick a single target, and let twenty others slip right on by.

I was only a small kid when the Gulf War happened, and I was more concerned with moving to a whole new state than War. In fact, I don't think I even knew what the war was until 4 or so years ago. Too recent to be in history books, too old to be talked about extensively in the news.That's how the 80's are for me. Iran-Contra and some of the other political things I don't have a very good understanding of. I asked my parents once and they were shocked that we didn't learn it in school. Well, for one it's too recent to be in the books, and for another, we usually ended up a little behind. I think I've only had one history class in my entire life (college included) that covered anything after WW2.

I dont think people over here look at it that way, their just people to be destroyed becuase their from Iraq. They dont care that they are people, they just want them dead.I think the # of people who actually believe this is very small. They just make their presence felt more than others, and most people's silence makes it seem like they agree.

And, those twelve year old girls have every right to be scared, and the reality is that they aren't safe. We (Americans) just think we're safe because most of the wars we're involved in are in far off countries. We only know about war through the same medium that brings us our entertainment. (I know, I know, I'm beating this into the ground)

War is not some morbid sort of entertainment; we can't just sit back and assume it won't reach us on a very real level someday. I get kinda sick of people suddenly reacting badly to something like 911, saying that, suddenly it's real, now that it's in our back yards. Well, it's always been in someone's backyard and it's always been real to the people wherever it's happening. I would hope that experiencing it on that personal level would make Americans (and yes I'm generalizing) have some sympathy for other countries who have had to experience it for years, and be slower to inflict suffering on others, having to do some of its own suffering.

Ravenclaw

03-20-2003, 06:30 PM

originally posted by litherose
A lot of people expect teenagers to be stupid and ill-informed. But it's simply not true. True, a lot of teenagers don't care about politics and religion and such, but a lot of them do. I did. Most of my friends in high school did. Just because you are under 18 doesn't mean you can't express yourself intelligently and articulately. Not having practical experience isn't the same as not being able to think through the issues.

Here here! :clap: Well traveled AND pretty well-informed teenager here!

And thanx for the CotLB answer. I was too lazy to go up and get my English Lit book to find out.

You make some good points.

Elfëa

03-20-2003, 07:07 PM

I really don't think any country (or a collection of countries) has the right to come in and remove its leaders just because it doesn't like them. It has always bothered me about the way the US has done this over the years. I will make an exception if that leader is trying to take over other countries, like Hitler, or killing its own people, again like Hitler, or a couple other cases of extreme oppression, where the people don't have enough voice to cry out for help.

I agree with lithrose here, and I'd like to voice a question - has Iraq's people voiced cry for help?

And also, not everything Hitler did was wrong - there were German troops fighting in Finland, beside the freedom fighters when Finland had is civil war (which started by removing Russian troops from Finland... Long story.)

I get kinda sick of people suddenly reacting badly to something like 911, saying that, suddenly it's real, now that it's in our back yards. Well, it's always been in someone's backyard and it's always been real to the people wherever it's happening.

Great great great point. But because it's America, I think the nation's pride has been attacked - America didn't take part to WW2 before it's own ships were attacked! Also, this is, probably the first time America is the first to step in the crisis... (France was in Vietnam before USA, and North Korea/South Korea goes down to Soviet Union crises...)

forcing this enclosed life on people who should be free to decide what they want to do.

I think this was by Colli (loads to read when I came online tonight) - I'm asking now, who are we, who am I, to decide what other people's life is supposed to be like? It's psychologically tested that people like following orders. Read (gah, can't remember, but will check my lecture notes for tomorrow.) - American psychologist, who tested people, how long they could go causing pain to a fellow human being.
1/3 would have given electronical shock that could have killed. Only because following someone elses orders. Only few stopped - and when asked who was responsible for the pain, they blamed no one else, but themselves. (Note, talking on the people who stopped the shocks). Those who went till the end, were either blaming the orders they were given, or did not see anything wrong in their actions.

I think children prejustce before they have really have formed their opinions - I'm just really starting to have a base of opinions myself. When you're kid, you go by the crowd, by the norms you learn at home.

Also, :hug: to everyone I might have offended. Some of the posts have already offended my opinions. As I don't believe in God in the manner of the religions have made it to be.
Question, by which I hope I won't offend anyone who believes in the Bible: How can you believe in book that has have to editions? Who says that man is worthy of changing the "word of God"?
That's why I see most of Christianity as hypocrite - because Bible is but a book among other books. It's translated, by scholars yes, but the scholars, in the end of the day are human. Can you take it and live by their words?
The Bible tells the woman to be quiet in the church and not interfere mens business - yet this has been "forgotten" by many Christians today. Will this happen to the homosexuality issue, in the future? I hope.

The author's work is hardly ever read as the author intended, and it's never possible to get author's true intentions. And anything you want, can be read from a text. The thing is to prove it.

:hug:

Colli, it's Chirac. :) (The French President.) And, I personally dislike America, but not the people. :p

Rivenlas

03-20-2003, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Colli
I'm still holding my opinions about France. Now don't get me wrong.. I'm not going to stop watching Moulin Rouge and I don't hate French people, I just strongly disagree with Jacques Churac or whatever his name is. And I disagree with France as a country, and their "morals".

Moregan:

No, we don't. I really don't appreciate that comment about our President, who's perfectly sane. Drawing parallels between Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong il, and President Bush is entirely inappropriate, and I wonder just how much you know about him. Do you draw your opinions based on other opinions or based on fact? Does President Bush tortute us? Rape us? Use poisonous gas on us? Do we have to have a portrait of him on every street corner? Does he forbid us to speak against him? Do we "vote" in elections that only have his name on the ballot. Are our lives and our families' lives threatened if we DON'T vote for him?
I don't think that's what Rivenlas meant.. perhaps her comment could have been worded better. The point is, they're isolating their citizens.. not letting them experience the rest of the world, forcing this enclosed life on people who should be free to decide what they want to do.

Ravenclaw:

But most Americans aren't "persecuting" that group of people, we're just wary of them. Actually acting like that against them based on their race is wrong. I have a friend who's from India.. and he's harmless. So is his family, they're all very nice. But I reserve the right to feel a little nervous when I see a bearded Middle Eastern man at the airport. I'm not gonna call the police or anything. ;) It may be useless paranoia, but so is arachnaphobia, claustraphobia, agoraphobia.... ;)

Not to mention France, England, etc were doing it hundreds - if not thousands - of years before us. War wasn't invented by America, you know.

:hug: I know you know that, it's all right. MOST Americans
wouldn't say that, actually. You all just aren't seeing a proportional cross section of the country.

Amen, Maz.

Chiana, I appreciate that you are giving your opinion, I just wish you'd get a little more informed before you do so.

I apologize for not responding to all the comments... there just isn't TIME. (Need one of those time turners ;)). I hope I've expressed my feelings as strongly as I feel them.. and still not offended anyone. But the truth is, I'm offended by some of the comments. Diversity isn't all it's cracked up to be. :(

:hug: everyone. I really don't think this war will last long..

(edit)

I don't believe in homosexuality. I don't believe it's right, and I don't want to see it. But I'll be hanged before someone calls me a racist because I think it's wrong. That's not prejudice, that's believing something is wrong. Prejudice would be something like "I don't like her BECAUSE she's a homosexual". And most kids aren't like that.

Wow--I agreed with a lot of points you made here!!

1. I don't like some of the things France is doing, but I'm not boycotting French fries or spitting on the Statue of Liberty. I think countries, like people, should have their own opinion, but, not to make France sound like a dog or anything because it is a great country, but they should be a bit loyal. I believe if someone was threatening France we would help them--wouldn't you think so? I mean, we did in WWII. I certainly think they should return the favor. Power shifts between countries--Britian used to have every place around them by the tail, and so did Rome. It might have seemed like America, Britain, and a few other countries, but now it seems like power is trying to shift and we're going to stop it. Which needs to be done because I feel like the leadership of most powerful countries in the world is fairly good right now and we should try to keep it that way. whew.

2. President Bush is not at all like Kim Jong il or Saddam Hussein. I totally agree--President Bush does not rape or subject us to torture. He does not ship us off to prison camps for no reason. And is our country so malnourished that our people have to join the army to get a decent meal?

3. You're right--I didn't mean that someone had to have American products if they are to be free. I should have worded it better. And I left out one significant detail: the wines (from all around the world (not just America), the films (the ones he likes are American) and the internet are all things Kim Wong il is addicted to. And he denies his people the same rights. Sure, he's the leader, he'll get special privledges, but doesn't that sound a tad hypocritical to some of you? And the only reason his people are reveling in their country is because they don't know any better.

4. I surely am not going to turn someone away because of their religion or how they look and I am American! Some people are stupid about it, yes, and will persecute them. Remember: we're not going to war to hurt the Iraqi people--we're going to war to get Saddam Hussein.

5. I also agree with you about homosexuality. I too believe it is wrong, but I'm not going to go out of my way to dislike someone just because they practice something I personally don't believe in.

Other things:

Let the Iraqis and who we have kept in the past keep their culture! I am not for Americanizing Iraq--I am for getting rid of the Hussein family, setting up a stable government for them, and letting them keep their large supplies of oil for their own good.
BTW, I'm not for Americanizing any other place, either. I love to travel, and where would the fun be if every place I visited was just like the place I left? Boooo-ring! Diversity is good.

The United States became the so-called "Policeman of the World" after a failed isolationism policy resulting in an attack on Pearl Harbor. Being the big guy the little guy can run to is sort of our thing because it worked for us up until 9/11. Seriously, though, think about it (Hold on, I'm going to use a pathetic comparison).
If you see a someone getting picked on, wouldn't you hope someone would step in and help them out? I feel Iraqis and North Koreans are like those people, and their own leaders are the ones doing it. Would you feel better leaving that person alone to be hurt worse? I wouldn't.

Hmmmm...dunno if I like that Policeman of the world thing. Don't get on too well with policemen. :D

Anyway :hug: everyone. This is a great thread for expressing our opinions--I know everyone is respecting everyone else's opinions, and I don't mind if you question mine (or I question yours) as long as we're doing it maturely. Which we are. It's nice to have an intelligent debate once in a while.

lithorose

03-20-2003, 08:19 PM

Those are really hard questions, Elfea. You won't get Christians to agree on them either. That's why there are now so many denominations, some over even smaller questions than these. I'll try to answer them as I see them:

No, it's not possible to express exactly what you mean. We are in finite bodies and are bound by the physical world, which twists our understanding (through what our senses receive), and limits our actions (we can't be everywhere at once, for instance). But I do think it's possible to get very close to the truth, and I think it's our responsibility, whatever your religion or philosophy, to get as close as possible to it.

I'm not sure what you meant by the Bible having 'editions'. Did you mean the difference between the Jewish Bible and the Christian, or between 'Catholic' and 'Protestant', with the Apocrypha? Or something else?

The Bible tells the woman to be quiet in the church and not interfere mens business - yet this has been "forgotten" by many Christians today. Will this happen to the homosexuality issue, in the future? I hope. Some still believe that. I can remember people in my own church believing that women should not be pastors. Involved in Ministry, yes, but not ordained pastors, because women shouldn't be in positions of leadership. There are different ways of interpreting the scriptures. Does the Bible contain 'mistakes'? Is it 'literally' true? I don't know that I would call anything in the Bible a 'mistake', but I don't think everything's meant to be absolutely, literally taken word-for-word. But then I also don't think it can all be interpreted away either. Different people draw lines in different places, depending on what they want to take from it. That can be used to support 'Law' rather than 'Spirit', which is what the early christians were trying to get away from. 'Spirit' comes first, 'Law' follows as an outgrowth of 'Spirit'. Meaning that right actions will follow out of a right spirit (that of being totally devoted to God). Christians forget this all the time but it's just as true whether people follow it or not.

As for homosexuality, I'm honestly not sure where I stand yet. Are you born gay, is it an 'unnatural' behavior? I think that for some it may be hardwired into their brainchemistry, but that fact alone doesn't necessarily excuse it. Some people are naturally predisposed to be alcoholics (to pick one of many examples), that doesn't make it okay for them to drink. All I can say I guess is that you are not ruled by your physical desires, which you don't always choose. But I don't see it as that big of an issue in regards of dealing with human beings. Sexuality is only a small part of being a human being, and I personally think it's more important to get people listening to God for themselves first, and then sort out the problem later. That's all the help I can give right now, I don't mean to offend anyone but that's what I believe.

Elfëa

03-20-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Rivenlas
I think countries, like people, should have their own opinion, but, not to make France sound like a dog or anything because it is a great country, but they should be a bit loyal. I believe if someone was threatening France we would help them--wouldn't you think so? I mean, we did in WWII.

But not after you were attacked. Before that, you were sending help yes - but not soldiers. One thing that USA should see is invasion.

now it seems like power is trying to shift and we're going to stop it. Which needs to be done because I feel like the leadership of most powerful countries in the world is fairly good right now and we should try to keep it that way.

The powershifts have been normal in the course of history -

And is our country so malnourished that our people have to join the army to get a decent meal?

Hmm... wonder about the beggars in your major towns and the students who have to join in army in order to get education?

Remember: we're not going to war to hurt the Iraqi people--we're going to war to get Saddam Hussein.

Then why is the war against Iraqi needed? Why can't CIA or US Army kill of Saddamn?

I also agree with you about homosexuality. I too believe it is wrong, but I'm not going to go out of my way to dislike someone just because they practice something I personally don't believe in.

So, you don't dislike Saddamn Hussein?
I try not to prejudice, but even being non-prejudiced is just one way to prejudice.

setting up a stable government for them,

You said this is not Americanism, but the society doesn't always have to be democratic to work. Who are we say that our method of goverment is better than the one they have?

Also, seeing lith answered while I've been typing... :hug: My questions are weird - I keep asking them, even if I disagree with them.

:hug: to all. I try not to be offensive, but, sometimes I just cannot understand. And some questions need to be asked.

Rivenlas

03-20-2003, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Elfëa
But not after you were attacked. Before that, you were sending help yes - but not soldiers. One thing that USA should see is invasion.

The powershifts have been normal in the course of history -

Hmm... wonder about the beggars in your major towns and the students who have to join in army in order to get education?

[/b]

Then why is the war against Iraqi needed? Why can't CIA or US Army kill of Saddamn?

[/b]

So, you don't dislike Saddamn Hussein?
I try not to prejudice, but even being non-prejudiced is just one way to prejudice.

[/b]

You said this is not Americanism, but the society doesn't always have to be democratic to work. Who are we say that our method of goverment is better than the one they have?

Also, seeing lith answered while I've been typing... :hug: My questions are weird - I keep asking them, even if I disagree with them.

:hug: to all. I try not to be offensive, but, sometimes I just cannot understand. And some questions need to be asked. [/B]

No, I still think that Saddam should be overthrown. If someone is homosexual, they aren't killing, torturing, and raping. Some things are worse than others.

I hope the US never sees invasion. I know we did only send soldiers after we were attacked, but I think we learned our lesson.

Some people go into the army to get an education, yes, but not food. You can be well-fed and work at a job that doesn't require college. College does get a head start for people but there are some others that end up gazillionaires without trying. Not saying that everyone is like that, but for a hard worker it is still possible to make a good living living without college. My basic point is that people don't join the army for the sole purpose of getting food.

Edit: BTW, the democratic system does have its faults. But it is better than the dictatorship that Iraq had.

I always thought monarchys (sp?) were cool. Why doesn't everyone just revert to that? ;)

Colli

03-20-2003, 10:36 PM

:hug: Raven. It's ok.. that being said, I wouldn't break a friendship with a homosexual. Well, most of my RL good friends I tend to agree with about a ton of stuff, so I can see us drifting apart, but I wouldn't shun that friend because they're a homosexual. I just think homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuals are still people, as I said way back in the Hufflepuff thread.

by lith
I really don't think any country (or a collection of countries) has the right to come in and remove its leaders just because it doesn't like them. It has always bothered me about the way the US has done this over the years. I will make an exception if that leader is trying to take over other countries, like Hitler, or killing its own people, again like Hitler, or a couple other cases of extreme oppression, where the people don't have enough voice to cry out for help. But other than that I believe it is up to each country to take its fate in its own hands. And it bothers me how the US will pick a single target, and let twenty others slip right on by.
Good grief. If we removed every leader we didn't like, Chirac (thanks Elfea ;)) would already be dead. We don't just "dislike" Saddam. He's evil, he's evil to his people, and he's a threat. I think we've established that. Saddam IS killing his own people. Didn't you read my posts on the first page. He's stealing UN money from his own people. Their food money. They're living on bare rations. The sports teams would be imprisone or killed if they lost matches. He rapes the women. Tortures men. They DON'T have a voice. (That's also in answer to Elfea's "has Iraq's people voiced cry for help?")

Elfea, this point confuses me. What are you trying to say?
But because it's America, I think the nation's pride has been attacked - America didn't take part to WW2 before it's own ships were attacked! Also, this is, probably the first time America is the first to step in the crisis...
So are we being criticized for waiting to enter WWII? At the same time we're being criticized now for war mongering? It seems like Europe is never going to be happy with what we do.

Elfea, you're making generalizations about Christians in general. I personally am a member of a much smaller portion of these so called "Christians". Don't worry about offending me at this point on religion, over the past few months I've gotten used to it. ;) I don't use "editions" of the Bible. I don't use creeds or handbooks, I study the Holy Bible, the one and only. Not the book of Mormon, not the Catholic bible. The Bible. Now there are different versions - translations. But they all say the same thing, just in slightly different words.
In my church, women are quiet. Women don't preach, women don't read scripture in front of the congregation, women don't serve at the Lord's Supper, women don't lead prayer. We can speak up in class, teach children's classes, and sing (naturally), but we follow the Bible. Being called a hypocrite offends me. And I don't think you know as much about the Bible as you think you do, I don't like being judged by it when you're not fully learned of it.

The point with the Bible is it can't be "proven", not enough to appease scientists and skeptics. Some people will never be happy, but they're the same people that will never believe. And that makes me sad. :( An in-depth study of the Bible shows how it all fits together.. how it was written over such a LOOONG period of time and how prophecies came true. And how men were still taught. But you have to want to believe.. if you read not caring, not having any faith, you're going to be able to find "reasons" it "can't" be true.

Rivenlas: Spitting on the Statue of Liberty? I hadn't heard that one yet. ;)

Elfea: Joining the army to be able to eat and joining the army to go to college are two entirely different things. Oops.. Rivenlas already said so. ;)

:hug:

Moregan

03-21-2003, 05:34 AM

Bother oh bother :( because I really don't have time to respond to everything and there are some wonderful points made here (:hug: to all) And SO MUCH I'd like to respond to :)

But I will respond to this one, because it is directed at me.
Colli said:
No, we don't. I really don't appreciate that comment about our President, who's perfectly sane. Drawing parallels between Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong il, and President Bush is entirely inappropriate, and I wonder just how much you know about him. The point that I was making was that an inference from Rivenlas's post could have been that interfering with other countries is valid and justified because their leaders are 'crazy'. Sorry, but I think that that is a dangerous route to go down, for a number of reasons, amongst which is simple binarism ... ie they are crazy - we are not. As we're talking about prejudice in this thread now, I think it's worth while pointing out that prejudices are based on such reductive binarisms.

And also, significantly, it is a US citizen who started a thread over on CoE questioning Bush's sanity. There are some most interesting comments over there :)

You are offended if you think I am suggesting that President Bush is crazy - yet I am sure that other countries (Rivenlas for example states that North Korea love their leader ... :)) might be equally offended if the US suggests that their leaders are crazy.

You can wonder just how much I know about President Bush, Colli, and about your country, but at the same time I can wonder just how much the average US citizen knows about the rest of the world. Or questions her or his own values. From anecdotal evidence and that not just here it does seem to me that US citizens who travel abroad do undergo quite a revelation about the rest of the world and how it views the US.

(Is it too naughty of me to suggest that an interesting intellectual experiment might be to apply this comment from you, Colli :hug: to the US?The point is, they're isolating their citizens.. not letting them experience the rest of the world, forcing this enclosed life on people who should be free to decide what they want to do.Just to see if maybe there's any evidence that might support that? Just a thought. Perhaps I am being naughty :trout: :D)

And can I just register that I find this comment from you, Colli rather disturbing And I disagree with France as a country, and their "morals".
And finally - yes, absolutely everyone is entitled to hold an opinion. It's my opinion that it's a good thing that people do :) But at the same time I think it is incumbent upon all of us, every one, constantly to question our opinions and on what those opinions are based. Which is, of course, why I'm here. I am happy to say I learn a lot from these discussions. :)

Ravenclaw

03-21-2003, 06:45 AM

Uh... I think it was Rivenlas who said...
I believe if someone was threatening France we would help them--wouldn't you think so? I mean, we did in WWII. I certainly think they should return the favor.

*Cough*French&IndianWar*Cough.*--> In a way, WE were returning the favor. But, yes, I agree with what you're saying. Allies help each other.

Of course, you can also understand France's possition. Can't you? OK, let's put it in simple terms.

Pretend you're back in grade school and your friend wanted to go beat up this big bully and wanted your help. You would be hesitent, wouldn't you?... Come to think of it, this isn't a very good analogy because that depends on the kind of friend you are...

Argh, I guess I don't understand France as much as I thought I did.

Can I ask a question? I understand what some of you are saying, how you don't like homosexuality and you don't think it's good, but you wouldn't condemn a person for being a homosexual. But I'm just wondering (and I mean it in the nicest way possible) what makes you think it's wrong? Just a question, because I'm genuinely curious.

OK, also, people have said that if this war is about killing Saddam, then why are we bombing the country, yeah?

As I've said before, you can't just KILL Saddam Hussein, or even try, and get away with it. It's happened before. You gotta be really sneaky if you want to get him. Or, as Bush sees it, raid the whole country to do it.

As to the Bible thing, well, there are so many views on that... There are always radicals, in every religion, who interpret the Bible differently and more passionately than others, and this includes the Muslim suicide bombers and the Ku Klux Klan all those years ago. The Bible means many different things to many different people. To some, it helps explain the inexplicable. Or it's a form of comfort. Some believe in it word for word, others take it in a more light and not so literal sense... Since I wouldn't really call myself Christian, I don't know how I personally would interpret it. But I agree, it's a walking contradiction. But when you think about it, humans are just a bunch of hypocrites. Every last one of us, even our personalities.

Melkor

03-21-2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Ravenclaw
*Cough*French&IndianWar*Cough.*--> In a way, WE were returning the favor. But, yes, I agree with what you're saying. Allies help each other.

Of course, you can also understand France's possition. Can't you? OK, let's put it in simple terms.

Pretend you're back in grade school and your friend wanted to go beat up this big bully and wanted your help. You would be hesitent, wouldn't you?... Come to think of it, this isn't a very good analogy because that depends on the kind of friend you are...

Argh, I guess I don't understand France as much as I thought I did.

Hmmmm, France is as entitled to it's views as any other political system. They undoubtably have reasons for their actions and it could well take many decades to find out exactly why they have acted the way they have these last few years.

Can I ask a question? I understand what some of you are saying, how you don't like homosexuality and you don't think it's good, but you wouldn't condemn a person for being a homosexual. But I'm just wondering (and I mean it in the nicest way possible) what makes you think it's wrong? Just a question, because I'm genuinely curious.

I would think it is people affraid of what they don't understand, which is very normal and understandable. Once educated to exactly who and what homosexuals are 90% seee them no different that others. The remaining 10% I would classifiy as devote reliogous bigots or just ignorant bigots. ( sorry if I offend, but look up the word before you flame me ;) )

OK, also, people have said that if this war is about killing Saddam, then why are we bombing the country, yeah?

As I've said before, you can't just KILL Saddam Hussein, or even try, and get away with it. It's happened before. You gotta be really sneaky if you want to get him. Or, as Bush sees it, raid the whole country to do it.

They did try to take SH out in the first hours of the war, since this is a dictatorship if they remove him and his top cronies the war would be over before it starts.

As to the Bible thing, well, there are so many views on that... There are always radicals, in every religion, who interpret the Bible differently and more passionately than others, and this includes the Muslim suicide bombers and the Ku Klux Klan all those years ago. The Bible means many different things to many different people. To some, it helps explain the inexplicable. Or it's a form of comfort. Some believe in it word for word, others take it in a more light and not so literal sense... Since I wouldn't really call myself Christian, I don't know how I personally would interpret it. But I agree, it's a walking contradiction. But when you think about it, humans are just a bunch of hypocrites. Every last one of us, even our personalities.

There are many religons out there. To condeme them all based on just the most popular is like hating all music because of the boy bands.

As for your last two sentences I totaly disagree. If this is what you are used to I suggest you get out more or change the people you hang out with. I am not a hypocrite, a bastard maybe, but not a hypocrite. But I'd be a bastard for that reason, I will not belittle myself or my friends by being a hypocrite.

it's a complex world out there, there are no simple answers.

Ravenclaw

03-21-2003, 01:56 PM

OK, I generalized on the last bit... But I still think mostly, it's true.

I'm not condemning anything. When it comes to religion, I am very openminded and find many of them interesting. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddism, Hinduism, Wicca... what have you. All I meant was people take the Bible or the Koran or whatever 'good book' a little over the top... There are some in every religion. But again, I'm generalizing, and I hate generalizing.

Now, I wouldn't call some of these people bigots... I'm just curious as to what they see is wrong about homosexuality. Because, frankly, I don't see a big problem with it. I just want to know what you think about it, that's all.

It could be they fear it cause they don't understand it, but I dunnno... Colli? Rivenlas?

Colli

03-21-2003, 04:51 PM

I was going to stay away from this thread over the weekend.. just too clear my head. But oh well. ;)

About homosexuality, religion, and the Bible: (I'm skipping war comments today)
I don't know what you mean by "go over the top" about the Bible. Are Christians going over the top if we believe that the Bible is the absolute word of God and we are to follow it (the New Law at least... the Old Law (Testament) is there as an example and as history and prophecy) to the letter. It's my Constitution, so to speak, except there aren't any Amendments. And so if the Bible says I must always tell the truth, then when I don't, it's a sin. And if the Bible says that homosexuality is evil, I believe it is evil. And if Melkor thinks that makes me a bigot, then I guess I'm a bigot. I'm not afraid of homosexuality.. most people aren't. They just have a set of personal morals that says it's wrong, just like some people think drinking excessive alcohol is wrong, just like some people think lying is wrong.

Moregan, :hug:. I think I understood what you meant. And I kind of do see how the rest of the world sees America, I just choose to ignore it... because for all it's faults, I still love this country. And when the national anthem plays, I feel proud.

Fleurdelacour

03-21-2003, 05:12 PM

I'm staying away from war stuff too, just cant handle the shock....

And if the Bible says that homosexuality is evil, I believe it is evil.

If the bible told you to sacrifice your daughter (thats if you had one of course), would you do it? If the bible told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?

The bible cant surely dictate your whole life. I'm not condeming you, but I don't understand it. It is an old book, written by men!

Does that make me evil then? For being Bi? Are my feelings for my friend? Are they evil?

I've been raised as a Christian, I go to a convent school, but I stopped believing in God because 1. Sorry to sound probaly melodramatic, but my childhood wasn't great, people have had worse, yes, i know obviously, but for me, it was hell. 2. 9/11 proved to me personally,t here was no god. if there was a god, then that evil wouldn't have happened...

Ravenclaw

03-21-2003, 05:13 PM

OK, I get what your saying, thanks (though I still don't agree). That was actually interesting. That makes a lot of sense.

Taking the Bible or any other religious thing "Too far" is when you... well, become a radical, I guess. No, what you said is not taking it too far, it's just taking it quite seriously, which is fine. Radicals are scary. I don't like things like that.

Colli

03-21-2003, 05:25 PM

FleurD, do you remember the story about Abraham? God told him to sacrifice his son Isaac.. his only son, the son he and his wife had waited FOREVER to get. Abraham went to the altar and was ready to do it when God stopped him. "Normal" man says that's foolish, they say that's not loving your son. But God sent Jesus to the world to die.. and He loved Him. Obedience is obedience, and the Bible isn't telling me to sacrifice my daughter.

The bible cant surely dictate your whole life.
Except it does. It might be hard for you to understand, but it does. My life is in service to God, it's only fair I follow (or try to follow) His rules.

It really makes me sad that you blame God for 9-11. It was an awful thing, but it wasn't God's fault. God created the world and set things in motion... and sometimes He lets things happen. Not because He doesn't love us, but all things happen for a reason. Maybe we just haven't found out what that is yet.

12 or so years ago my dad was fired from his job.. my parents were devastated. They could've asked God "Why?".. they probably did. But life went on, and we moved here to Ohio. Since we moved to Ohio, my brother learned about the college he ended up going to and met his wife there. Maybe that was the reason. Maybe there's some other reason that my dad was fired, that we still haven't found out. There was a reason for 9-11... it was Satan's fault. It was Al Qaeda's fault.. it wasn't God's. If He stopped all bad things from happening, what kind of world would that be? A perfect world.. the kind of world He created in the first place. Before Adam and Eve brought sin into the world.

FleurD.. I'm not calling you evil. But homosexuality is. As are abortion, murder, fornication (sex outside of marriage).

Nyliram

03-21-2003, 05:30 PM

I've seen several posts here questioning if the Iraqi people want help and/or want SH out of power. I'm in the US, but I've been watching a Canadian TV news station (CBC's NWI cable station) so I can get a different point of view. In the past two days I've seen them interview several Iraqi citizens that are now living in Canada, the US and Britain. They have all said that they want SH and his regime out of power. They said they and their families still in Iraq do not fear the Americans. They fear SH and his regime.

edit

I just saw (on another station people) in southern Iraq celebrating the American coaltion's presence.

Elfëa

03-21-2003, 06:04 PM

They just have a set of personal morals that says it's wrong, just like some people think drinking excessive alcohol is wrong, just like some people think lying is wrong.

FleurD.. I'm not calling you evil. But homosexuality is. As are abortion, murder, fornication (sex outside of marriage).

And everyone who commits any of those - or just is plainly humanly jealous is evil? I fail to understand. :(

Can you explain WHY these things are wrong? Because, I fail to believe in a Book that is just a book among others. Book that's written for people who lived 2000 years ago, in a different enviroment.
Oh, and drinking alcohol is not wrong according Bible. (translation from Finnish) "Drink some wine for your stomach," is a quote from Bible. New Testament, I believe. (But, it's been a while since I've read my Bible.)

Morals are taught us by society. Norms define how we behave in certains situations, morals are taught in stories we hear as kids, and later in life straightly. But, there are many places when faced with moral dilemma- to steal or not to steal when your family is starving?
Which set of morals you choose? The one presented in Bible: love every one as you love yourself - steal for your starving kids, because you love them?
Or the other one, also presented in Bible - Do not steal.
(bad example, but it's from the top of my head.)

Obedience is obedience,

Yes. And most people (I'm making generalization here, I know. But it's also generalization made by psychologists.) rather obey than take responsibility of their actions.
Like under the reign of Hitler, many people justified their actions by "I just follow my orders". Even if the orders were to put people in gaschambers.
(I really need to remember to check the names of the psychologists... and read the book.)

the kind of world He created in the first place. Before Adam and Eve brought sin into the world.

This is a paradox, as God created Adam to be (translating from Finnish Bible now, sorry) "his picture." To be like him. So - how can Adam and Eve bring the sin, as they're picture of God, unless God has sin in him/herself as well?

And Colli, you stated I haven't probably studied Bible as much I should have. Well, I've read the whole New Testament, of Finnish translation of Bible - edition from 1992. Lutheran reading of the Bible - I've been confirmated to Lutheran church 5 years ago. I have also read many parts, of Old Testament, but as it's not seen as important we did not study it as much as we perhaps should have.
Yes, I believed in God once. But, most people I saw in church, in the confirmation camp were fake. And I've come to understand myself and the see the world in much much clearer way. (to me. No intention to offend.)

And if there is a God that is as Almighty as Christianity sees God, why are there other religions then?

I believe, if there is a God - which is possible, I can't know everything - there is ONE God, and every religion is only a way to get to him/her/it.

And, just out of curiousty, I looked up word 'bigot' from Oxford English Dictionary Online:
1. a. A hypocritical professor of religion, a hypocrite. b. A superstitious adherent of religion.
2. A person obstinately and unreasonably wedded to a particular religious creed, opinion, or ritual.

(I just love using OED ;))

Moregan:
The point that I was making was that an inference from Rivenlas's post could have been that interfering with other countries is valid and justified because their leaders are 'crazy'. Sorry, but I think that that is a dangerous route to go down, for a number of reasons, amongst which is simple binarism ... ie they are crazy - we are not. As we're talking about prejudice in this thread now, I think it's worth while pointing out that prejudices are based on such reductive binarisms.

...

You are offended if you think I am suggesting that President Bush is crazy - yet I am sure that other countries (Rivenlas for example states that North Korea love their leader ... ) might be equally offended if the US suggests that their leaders are crazy.

and
Melkor
Hmmmm, France is as entitled to it's views as any other political system. They undoubtably have reasons for their actions and it could well take many decades to find out exactly why they have acted the way they have these last few years.
There are many religons out there. To condeme them all based on just the most popular is like hating all music because of the boy bands.

:clap: :notworthy
I totally agree.

And I guess this sums it up.
Melkor:
it's a complex world out there, there are no simple answers.

And that's why there are so many ways. But, who are you or me to say my way is the only right way? :)

Rivenlas

03-21-2003, 07:04 PM

Nyliram, I saw today on the news in a small town where the people where out dancing and laughing with American soldiers and were tearing Saddam's picture on the wall and hitting it in the face with a shoe or something. They were soooo happy to be free of his rule!

I am a Lutheran and take the Bible very seriously. Like Colli, I believe everything in it, and I only believe in one edition. There are different versions of that edition, yes, but as Colli said the words are basically the same.

No, the Bible doesn't say drinking is wrong but I think drinking too much so that you become an alcoholic and abuse your family and life is definitely one. God turned water into wine, so he surely isn't condemning responsible drinking. I'm not sure, but I think Colli was saying that only too much drinking is a sin.

I do think homosexuality is wrong, but I don't dislike someone who is. I am a sinner, and I know I do things wrong too and so do the people I hang out with. I have good friends who drink waaay too much but I'm still friends with them. Just because you disapprove of someone's lifestyle is no reason not to be friends with them. I'm sure people disapprove of what I think and do, but no one has ever blantantly said they didn't like me because of it and I will never do that either. I hope that because I have said I disapprove of it no one will hold it against me--maybe I am a bigot, but that's what I believe and I hold to my opinions.

:hug: everyone. Hope I didn't say anything too offensive but that is what I believe.

Moregan

03-21-2003, 09:11 PM

Colli said:
I still love this country. And when the national anthem plays, I feel proud. I think that's really nice :hug: :)

[Mogs in silly mode]Ravenclaw said:
Radicals are scary. I don't like things like that. Boo! :D My secular thinking is super-radical feminist :eek:

(which, btw, doesn't mean I hate men .. :D)

[/Mogs in silly mode]

Colli

03-21-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Rivenlas
[B]Nyliram, I saw today on the news in a small town where the people where out dancing and laughing with American soldiers and were tearing Saddam's picture on the wall and hitting it in the face with a shoe or something. They were soooo happy to be free of his rule!
I saw that earlier.. I nearly cried I was so happy for them. I think we're going to have a relatively easy time.. at least until we get to Bagdad.. that is, if Saddam is still alive by the time our ground troops get there.

Rivenlas, thanks for basically saying what I was going to say. :D :hug: the Christian bigot ;)

I believe, if there is a God - which is possible, I can't know everything - there is ONE God, and every religion is only a way to get to him/her/it.
Elfea, when you read the New Testament, do you remember reading the book of Matthews, part of which which is called the "Sermon on the Mount"? Chapter 5 or 6 says that the way is narrow which leads to salvation, and the way is broad which leads to destruction. Few will find the way to salvation, and many will go to way of destruction. Notice way is singular. There's ONE way. Christ said "I am the way, the truth, and life." And his way is following his teaching... doing what the Bible said. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Christ is the Word.

(edit) Forgot this:
I think that's really nice :hug:
:) Thanks. Another beautiful song by Lee Greenwood, God Bless the USA. Our band played it at football games after 9-11 last year.

If tomorrow all the things were gone,
I’d worked for all my life.
And I had to start again,
with just my children and my wife.

I’d thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.

And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

From the lakes of Minnesota,
to the hills of Tennessee.
Across the plains of Texas,
From sea to shining sea.

From Detroit down to Houston,
and New York to L.A.
Well there's pride in every American heart,
and its time we stand and say.

That I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

And I’m proud to be and American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

Elfëa

03-21-2003, 09:35 PM

In reply to Colli-

Yes, I remember chapter you're refering to. (:p took me sometime, as they tend to translate things weirdly. Don't know what language they're translating from :confused: )

But why doens't God accept all the men - His creations? And were there only one God, how can there be ways to Other Gods then? :confused:

I really hope this war won't turn like all the wars before that have been said "it'll only take few weeks/days"... and end up going on for years.

Colli - you're happy for the war? And I thought Bible said Do Not Kill. Sorry, getting me little confused here... :o

edit: Colli, however beautiful that song is, it distrubs me how it says: "That I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free" in a manner that there are no other places in world which are free.

I come from a country, which is FREE, and this kind of thingin offendes me. :( But, I know you didn't mean it offend ;) :hug:
And I hope my anti-Biblical thoughts don't offend those who disagree with me. (How many times you've seen me and glae agree? It's rare, and we get along fine :p)

Colli

03-21-2003, 09:45 PM

God loves man, yes, but He wishes to (and deserves to be, seeing as He put us here) be obeyed. He hasn't been shy about punishing those who don't obey Him.

There aren't ways to other gods... the only other gods are the creations of men, false gods, idols.

The Bible says "Do not kill"

But kill is interpreted as "murder"... David was a man after God's own heart, and he was also a war hero, by God's command. I feel like I'm repeating myself...

Elfëa

03-21-2003, 09:51 PM

But, here's the thing - it can be interpreted as kill in general. How can you say your reading is the right reading of Bible? :confused:

There aren't ways to other gods... the only other gods are the creations of men, false gods, idols.

But why does every religion claim that their God(s) is(are) the only true one(s) then? And, what says yours is better? What says only your God is true?
That is the reason why I cannot believe in on religion.

Colli

03-21-2003, 10:00 PM

About the God Bless the USA comment (which I didn't see earlier): that phrase isn't meant to imply other countries aren't.. it's just bringing out that aspect of America, that we are free, and that we fought to be so.

But, here's the thing - it can be interpreted as kill in general. How can you say your reading is the right reading of Bible?
Because if my reading is the WRONG interpretation, then David was a murderer. But he wasn't, because he pleased God.

But why does every religion claim that their God(s) is(are) the only true one(s) then? And, what says yours is better? What says only your God is true?
That is the reason why I cannot believe in on religion.
You're still assuming that each individual religion is right. Each isn't.. and each religion believes it, and its god, is right.

Think about it. Is someone going to be a member of religion and say "but I don't believe in my religion's god"?

My God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, David, Paul, Peter, and today. My God is the God described in the Bible, the one and only. Any other god is an invention of mankind or a misinterpretation of what the Bible says.

glaelia

03-21-2003, 10:17 PM

have to agree with elfea i'm afraid colli, because what you're saying is that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. right? you're saying that your god is the only god, the real god, and all other religioins are made up, misinterpretations, rubbish basically?? that's basically what you're saying after all... that in my view is very narrow-minded. i believe you have a right to believe in your god, in your interpretation of the bible, but i believe that everyone has that right. in my opinion the point of religion, of worship is to have something to believe in, to have a reason to live and the hope that there is something after death. because if we couldn't have that hope, then i think most people would find life very difficult indeed.

everybody has the right to believe in whatever god they choose, and whatever religion that choose. be that christianity, catholocism... protestants, hindus, sikhs, buddists, muslims, pagans, scientologists, mormons, jews, satanists. everybody has the right to believe exactly what they choose. and to them it is the truth, it is the only way, to each individual. their way is the right way. that's fine, it's fine to think it, to believe it. but to tell others that their way is wrong or indeed as some people say, that they will go to 'hell' for not following a certain way??? that's rubbish, that's stupid, that's how wars start.

i was brought up a methodist, but i made a decision to move away from the church at a very young age due to things that happened to me within and outside the church. i don't believe in god, any god, or in satan, or in heaven and hell. but that's my opinion and as such i would never press it on others. if you believe that there is a god, a satan, a heaven and hell, fine, because to you that is the truth. that is what you believe and at the end of the day, the truth is only what you believe it to be. but i think preaching is unnecessary, believing that people are inferior to you or are going to go to hell or are sinners because they chose not to believe the same things as you, that's wrong, that's where the problems start, that's how wars start.

rant over.

i am one of the most open-minded people you are ever likely to meet, as elfea will agree on ;), but the one thing i cannot stand is those who are determined that everybody has to believe the same as them.

in a sense we are all free people, we are given minds and conscious thought, i don't know who by ;) but not a god, as i don't believe in one ;), and as such we are all, at least to an extent (considering those under dictatorships) capable of making our own decisions, our own choses, our own opinions.

but :hug: to you all, this isn't a flame .... and not directed at anyone in particular. just my opinion, as is my right to express ;)

that person who cannot formulate their own, original opinion, that person is only half a person....

Melkor

03-21-2003, 10:50 PM

Very strange thread I have stumbled on here :)

I am a briggand, look for the root of that one :p

The goddess led me to my wife, a lady just beginning her journey of understanding.

I had terminal liver cancer. The doctors said I was going to die in the summer of 2000. My lady and I worked very hard, prayed for guidance and were "shown" a way to be together. The goddess answered our prayers and my life was spared. ( I say she did it as the doctors could not explain how or why the cancer went into remission) If I was a practising christian I would be patted on the back and told that "god" had spared me and that would prove to them miracles still happen.

As I am not a christian they come up with all sorts of things to say, but none of them give credit to the goddess. :p

I'd never say to them that they were full of bunk for following their path. Why must they think I am going to hell, a thing that doesn't exisit in my religion, for believing in the magic that is the goddess's gift to me?

To those who have looked around and think there is no "god" I would say keep looking, but she wears a dress and doesn't have a beard. ;) I don't mean that to put any other religion down either. If what you are following works for you then by all means keep going with it. :)

I've seen threads like this in the past degenerate into name calling and flaming. I hope that this site set's the standard for all others to follow. Let us engage each other in peace and love, let us try to be understanding of others and not think ill of them just because they are different.

glaelia

03-21-2003, 10:56 PM

*glae :hug: s melkor for such a beautiful post...

Colli

03-22-2003, 12:02 AM

:hug: everyone. I'm really pleased that we've managed to stay so polite considering the plethora of viewpoints..

Glae, perhaps I've been a little confusing. I believe the Bible is the only way anyone can get to heaven. I believe that the new law (the New Testament) describes one and only one way to get to heaven. I believe that only people who recognize that way and GO that way will get to heaven.

That being said, I believe I am on that way, because I'm doing what the Bible says. I believe there are people who are doing partly what the Bible says, but who skip a few steps, who add a few steps, who distort a few steps. Well-intentioned as they are, they still aren't doing what it says.

Call me narrow-minded, I don't care anymore. It's your choice not to believe in God, and in all sincerity, I'll pray for your soul.

Religion isn't just something to try to help you "get through life". Religion -- true religion -- IS one's life.

Sure, everyone can believe whatever they want. I can't physically force them to believe differently.

Non-believers aren't inferior to me.. they're humans, and they sin, as I sin. Whether or not they've done what the Bible says to do to achieve salvation is another matter. I'm not going to sugarcoat what I believe. But to be called stupid, closed-minded, ignorant, whatever you all think, because I stick to a firm belief system I find seriously offensive. Especially when there are people running around believing nothing.

I'm sorry you can't stand me for believable in the Bible as the absolute word.

that person who cannot formulate their own, original opinion, that person is only half a person....
I totally disagree... am I only half a person for believing in what Jesus Christ, DEITY, who was there when the world was created, said? "There is no new thing under the sun"... nothing is original.

:hug:

glaelia

03-22-2003, 12:05 AM

thanks colli :hug: but my souls just fine and dandy

Rivenlas

03-22-2003, 04:06 AM

Colli, I have to say I share your opinions.

I, too, believe strongly in the Bible and what it says. I also believe their is only one way--but the one way is through Christianity, which I believe is being a Lutheran, Methodist, Congregational, Catholic, Baptist--these are places I have been and found them to generally worship the same god and believe in the same things.

Some people I know will not be converted and I feel that forcing them to do what I wish will make them hate me and my God even more. All I can do is let them know what I believe and hope, through time, they might come to believe it too.

I think others religions have a basis in something--they just may have it a little confused. I think a lot of the religions make beautiful stories, but I can't believe them and do not know how people could. For example, the gods and goddesses of greece and rome.

And I have my own opinion: I believe in God and I know I am a full person for it.

Rivenlas's interesting fact: Charles Darwin threw away his theories and became a Christian.

:hug: everyone. Thanks for respecting my opinions.

Ravenclaw

03-22-2003, 06:33 AM

OK, is anyone here Muslim? Because I find that religion facsinating.

:hug: Melkor!

After studdying many different religions, I would like to just say I don't think I will be Christian again. There are too many things in that religion that bug me and that I don't agree with. Other people agreeing with them is fine, I just find it not for me.

Also, many RELIGIUS radicals have stated that all other non-christians are going to hell, when the Bible clearly states otherwise. An example:

A Christian Speaks of Wicca and Witchcraft
by James Clement Taylor

I am a Christian and not a Wiccan. A Christian is one who has been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and who has made a personal, free-will decision to commit himself and all his or her life to our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Both of these things are true of me. I am a member of St. Mary's Eastern Orthodox Church, Calhan, Colorado. In this paper, I am not speaking as agent for any church, but I am, entirely on my own responsibility, speaking the truth in love, as we Christians are supposed to do.

A Situation of Strife and Shame:

There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion, a Pagan, proclaimed:

"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)

If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)

"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew 7:2)

"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)

"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:36-38)

Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things, will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace, which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either. The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works, nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right church. Rather, it is faith in God, and in His mercy:

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)

But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them Satan-worshippers are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it should. In the Bible we find the following:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, The One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)

The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!

For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1). You will find that, while the power manifested there may be less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is clearly the power of God.

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, these people of Wicca have been terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan, which they do not. We have persecuted them, and God will hold us accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)

Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our sins.

OK I'm done for now.

lithorose

03-22-2003, 06:43 AM

(haven't had time to read Rav's post yet):
I think others religions have a basis in something--they just may have it a little confused.I think this is a good point and what I believe as well. But of course the adherents of said other religions will also view you this way. So, then, how do we tell? Two people both calling each other liars (or both claiming that their way is the only way to God) isn't going to get you anywhere, it won't help you to find the Truth. So strip everything down to a few basic questions:

How did we get here?
Why are we here?

How did we get here? Did time start, or has it always been, forever and ever, like a mobius strip? The idea that time did not start has no meaning for me; because I cannot get anywhere I will not eventually end back up at. I don't like the idea that I can't get anywhere in the long run. So then I believe time had a start.

Was it started by a being, God, or by some other non-personal means (as in Pantheism)? The idea that there is a spirit that is not a personality also has no meaning for me. How did personalities develop from non-personalities? I think this is called consciousness in some circles; but I'm unclear what is meant by that so I call it personality. When I cry out for understanding, I cannot handle the answer that there is no one to answer back, no understanding to be had. I also cannot see where this desire has come from if there is no answer. So then I believe there must be a personality to answer for our own personalities. God.

Is God good? Does God care and how can he/she allow injustice? First off, on a side note I do not believe God has gender. He has traditionally been assigned male for reasons I won't get into. I believe God must be good, because the world that is created is so intricate I think it can only be a work of love, which is good. On the same basis I believe God cares. (Not that I don't have periods of doubt, but that's another matter)

Then how can God allow injustice? Well, there's no easy answer for that one. The entire book of Job is dedicated to that question, and God never explains his actions to him. Big injustices, like 911 or the Holocaust, are no more excuseable than little ones. We do wrong to each other all the time, it is in our very beings, and towards animals (God's creation). Animals wrong each other, the Earth wrongs us through natural disasters. Our very being and breathing means the death of some of God's Creation; we must eat either animals or plants to live. So injustice (even apart from man's 'Fall') simply is. But how can God sit up there from on high and impose this on us? Is that not also an injustice? Well, (as Christianity believes) he didn't, but assumed the form of man, confining himself as one of his own creations, suffered with us and died. So it is an answer and not an answer, but it's the best I've found.

Where was I? (getting dizzy, I hope I'm not losing you guys;)) Oh, I think that wraps up the how and part of the why we are here. Maybe I should take a breather;) If anyone sees any holes in this, please ask:)

edit: in direct response to the article posted by Ravenclaw
I agree with quite a few of the points he made, but not all:
For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1). You will find that, while the power manifested there may be less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is clearly the power of God. But the rest of the passage states: "...Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God." It's so easy to make any point you want to by taking excerpts from the Bible that I don't usually like doing it. But ultimate judgement is God's, that message is repeated over and over through the Bible. We can't go around saying who is and isn't a Christian, who is and isn't going to Hell. And what is Hell? That's going to take a whole nother post, if anyone's interested:o

Moregan

03-22-2003, 07:16 AM

And Moregan, who is a strange one, happens to know ... about both. :) And there are many forms of knowing, btw, not just intellectual knowing, but, for example, feeling knowing. :)

Melkor, I loved your post. For the goddess - I have discovered a freedom without bounds, something that is far beyond such things as division and judgementalism, and I have come to know a holism of openness, happiness that is both joy and a contentment, gentleness and acceptance, and a beauty that never could I even have thought before. For me I find that words can't easily capture what is here ... simply because so much of this is beyond what words can speak. And it is beautful.

And for Christianity? Ah, I am fortunate to have also a very good orthodox (not quite the word, but there is none better) teacher in this, who has shown me what God is, and the meaning of Jesus, in a way that I have never found in the organised churches here. By so doing he has taken away all shadows and fears and I have discovered joy, a never-ending love, a guide, and, and I do say this meaning it, a miracle beyond all knowing and that is in everything, everywhere, today.

So what am I? Who knows. And I'm sure that there are those who say ... I have to decide, I can't be one thing and the other at the same time.

And to them I say ... I'm not. And nor, by the way, do I think any path is as good as another. But what I will say is that I am still learning. I will learn for the rest of my life (and ... :D). I'd like to think we all will.

'And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.'

Good ol' Shakespeare ... :D

*
Edit .. just seen loads of other posts come in while I tapped out this one :) ... but I don't think they change what I was saying because I'm coming more from an experiential perspective :)

Ravenclaw

03-22-2003, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Rivenlas
I think others religions have a basis in something--they just may have it a little confused.

Originally Posted by lithrose
I think this is a good point and what I believe as well. But of course the adherents of said other religions will also view you this way. So, then, how do we tell? Two people both calling each other liars (or both claiming that their way is the only way to God) isn't going to get you anywhere, it won't help you to find the Truth.

I agree with part lithrose's response, and I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with Rivenlas.

I think each religion has incredible similarties, whether they are polythesic or monothesic, including the Greeks and Romans and Mesopatamians. To call these religions confused is beyond me. I don't think that word says it. Every person on this earth sees things differently. Even within the Christian community, people may agree with their fellow Christians on somethings, but disagree on others. And people in the Ancient world, like the early Africans or the Greeks and Romans, were just looking for explinations. And almost every organized religion has some form of "Supreme Being" even the polythistic ones. Zeus, for instanse, born of Chronus and Rhea. And in a way, by breaking down one God into many, they are still worshiping the same God that those of the monothesic religions are. For when a Greek sailor wished for safe passage across the Mediterranian, he prayed to Posseidon to protect him. And a Christian sailor might pray to God to protect him. So though using different names and aspects, weren't they in a way the same as modern Christians? And by praying to one God each time, perhaps you are indeed praying to many. I don't know. Even their myths share similarities to some Biblical tales.

I believe every religion is right about somethings, and wrong about others. Every last one of them. I like the Islamic Five Pillars, I like the Ten Commandments of Christianity, which also hold similarities. I like the ties with nature in religions such as Wicca or Hindi. And to say that one is correct and the others are "confused..."

Moregan

03-22-2003, 11:43 AM

Yes, of course there will be lots of similarities. That's because, after all, we are all human and there are certain big similarities between every single one of us because of that humanity. That's in both biological and pyschological ways. Yes, of course cultural differences run very very deeply, and thereby we express ourselves in different ways, but essentially, in my view, we are accessing the same problems ... how to survive, how to make sense of things and so on ad infinitum.

I have to say that I find it immensely tempting to think that all religions are right about some things and wrong about others. Actually I don't. One of the problems there I suppose comes from defining exactly what we are measuring 'rightness' and 'wrongness' against. To be a little contentious here, and to give some examples .... if we were measuring high levels of consumption by the standards of the religion of capitalism (and in my view that is a religion) then those levels would be right and we should be aiming for more. Or, if we were using the religion (yes, I think it is) of science to measure 'ethnic cleansing' (which I happen to think is a disgusting phrase, btw, trying to conceal what I think is total atrocity behind words) then maybe we'd think, in the interests of strengthening particular desired characteristics, exterminating other peoples and cultures was a good thing.

I appreciate the way lithorose is working around things :) And Colli has a very valid point in saying ...each religion believes it, and its god, is right. Think about it. Is someone going to be a member of religion and say "but I don't believe in my religion's god"?Of course this is going to be the case. My opinion is that the problems arise when we use the standards of one religion to judge the standards of another. Just as much as problems arise when we use the standards of one country to judge another or one set of morals to judge another.

And having said that, I will repeat that I don't believe all ways are equally valid.

Ravenclaw

03-22-2003, 01:53 PM

When I said "right and wrong" about things, I meant in my own opinion. I wouldn't call myself an athiest because... Well, there are some things in some religions that I consider could be true and other things that I, personally, don't believe in, or don't WANT to believe in. I believe that the Christian and Jewish God is the same as the Muslim's Allah, as the Koran states, for instance. And I think that ties those religions closer together than some may at first assume. Therefor, I've adopted all religions, in a way, and am openminded about each.

But otherwise, I agree to a lot you just said, Moregan. About how someone measures what's right and what isn't, and about the similarities between human beings and their psyches. I also agree that one shouldn't judge another or their religion based on the standards of ones own. Overall, I agreed with that post.

Colli

03-22-2003, 03:22 PM

I'm going to address some things, I'm going to ignore some others. I sat in tears last night because I'm pouring out my heart doing what I truly think is right, and getting severely insulted in doing so.

1st point: The 10 Commandments are not Christian. They're in the Bible we study, but they're in the Old Testament. So while 9 of them are generally good rules for living and CAN be found in the New Testament, they aren't our creed. The 10 Commandments are Jewish.

2nd point: We do not all have the same God. Christians (most of them... this differents in the different denominations) believe that God is three persons: The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. All three were present at Jesus' baptism, but they're all three God. Jews don't believe Christ is God, they don't believe he was the Savior that had been prophesied for thousands of years. They are in fact still waiting for that Savior.

Ravenclaw, I disagree with just about that entire article. Saying you can obey certain mere sentences in the Bible and be able to go to heaven is like saying you can obey certain laws and be a perfect law-abiding citizen. Acts 2:38. The article didn't mention that one. Mark 16:15-16.. didn't mention that one either. Convenient, eh?

StarGazr

03-22-2003, 03:49 PM

I got a phone call from a friend of mine from Chicago... a mutual friend of ours whom we've known for over a decade was in Chicago the day that 500 people got arrested on Lake Shore Drive for the war protests. Our friend had been lucky, and did not have to spend the night in county lock up. When I got that phone call, I realized how much our friend had changed because of this war. The girl I grew up with would have never travelled into the city to protest a war and nearly get arrested... so much has changed.
I've witnessed eight-, nine-, and ten-year-olds mature over night. For those of you who don't know me personally, I work in a daycare, and spend most of my weeks with that age group. I sat down with about six of them and had a real discussion about the war. One of the things we talked about was the possiblilty of another 9/11 tragedy. While I wanted to tell them that they were perfectly safe and that nothing like that could ever happen again, I knew that I had a group of extremely intelligent children in front of me and admitted openly that I did not know what the future held for us.
I wholeheartedly support this war because of these children. I support this war because I want the people who have forced these children to fear other people to be brought to justice. I support this war because I want Saddam Hussein dead for the fear he's inflicted on his people and the American people. I support this war because of my future children who don't deserve to grow up in a world where they have to live in fear of weapons of mass destruction. I support this war because I don't want to have to look over my shoulder anymore fearing that some building might explode. I support this war because I believe that all people have the right to be free... and if America is going to step up to the challenge of freeing the people of Iraq... then I support that. Someone commented earlier that America doesn't have the right to step in and "free Iraq." Why not? Don't they deserve to have a chance to live their lives free of war, terrorism, and fear? Why shouldn't someone help them?
I'm proud to say that I'm an American... and I support this war because I believe that Iraq has been given enough time to turn over those weapons that they should have never had. Bush said that this was a last resort... it is.. and I support our President wholeheartedly...
Honestly.. if I have offended any of you, I am sorry... but I'm not sorry for what I've said... even if it is just rambling and ranting.

Fleurdelacour

03-22-2003, 04:10 PM

First and foremost, in response to Colli's earlier post:

FleurD.. I'm not calling you evil. But homosexuality is. As are abortion, murder, fornication (sex outside of marriage).

Define evil. Evil comes in many forms. Murder and abortion are evil. (I'm against abortion for personal reasons) and murder, well that's obvious :rolleyes: But for you to say homosexuality and pre-marital sex is evil is not just, it cannot be justified. They're completely different things! That I don't understand, how you can group murder and homosexuality in the same group of evil. Even if it's in the Bible, it can't seem right...

*

I've spent the last 45 mins reading all your wonderful posts, :hug: but it'd would take me another 45 mins to say "Oh I agree." or "I disagree" when others have already said the same, it'd just be boring and repetitive.

*

If you think God created the world, then why are there fossils and dinosaur bones?

I believe in the whole Big Bag theroy being a science girl, I believe in the fact a load of atoms decided to merge together explode and create the Universe. ;) I could be wrong on how it happened exactly, I can't quite remember and haven't revised that yet.

*

I'm going to address some things, I'm going to ignore some others. I sat in tears last night because I'm pouring out my heart doing what I truly think is right, and getting severely insulted in doing so.

I don't think (and I hope not) I'm not insulting you :( I think you're a funny wonderful person, I disagree with your views, and will question them. I really don't want to upset you :( :hug:

Moregan

03-22-2003, 05:55 PM

For Stargazr - That's a nice post about your views, I think. And I think you have given a great justification for why you hold your views. :)

The only thing I would very gently say is that it's worth keeping on learning. Not everyone will share your views of course, and it's quite interesting to see what the foreign press (ie foreign to the US) says about these things. Thankfully we all have the internet, so it's possible to access quite a bit of stuff ... although not all of us have loads of time ... :)

With regard to terrorism ... well, of course that's a hot question about who are terrorists and who aren't. There's an interesting article here We're their allies - so why aren't they ours? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,893757,00.html) from one of our newspapers (don't be put off by the first couple of paragraphs :D) I'm not going to go into debate on this, but I just put it here for interest's sake, and especially because it mentions the French people, who have been referenced on this thread :)

And for Colli - look, big :hug: for you. Nobody, I am sure, would want you ever to be so upset over things. I understand, I think, where you are coming from. In truth I don't have a problem with your views, but I do think it's always important to state that they are your views, or what you've learnt from eg your Bible study group, rather than some absolute prescription (even if you believe, from what you have learnt, that they are absolute :) ) That's just because we are such a diverse community here :)

It isn't easy when beliefs are questioned. The great thing about that is that questions and challenges do provide a good opportunity for learning more, and indeed, very often, for strengthening a faith. Perhaps if you looked at it that way it would help? :) And another :hug: for you, just in case :)

Elfëa

03-22-2003, 06:09 PM

I'm going to address some things, I'm going to ignore some others. I sat in tears last night because I'm pouring out my heart doing what I truly think is right, and getting severely insulted in doing so.

That's one reason I have avoided Politics and Religious discussion, because we cannot agree on them, with everyone. And that will eventually hurt people, which I dislike.
:hug: Remember, even if we don't agree with your opinions, we do like you, as you've said with you opinions on homosexuals :) Be friends, even if you disagree.

:hug: glaelia made point ages ago, which I agree with (hmm... must be third time I agree with her... ;))

stargzr
Someone commented earlier that America doesn't have the right to step in and "free Iraq." Why not? Don't they deserve to have a chance to live their lives free of war, terrorism, and fear? Why shouldn't someone help them?

I'd like to quote poster over different forum, but I don't think it's right.
But I think it's the same thing as with religion - freedom is a western value, are we allowed to force feed people values we think as righteus? Would you be happy if Chinese (random example) would invade your country and force feed you their values which they consider the only right ones?
We are used to the idea of freedom, but it's western concept. (From France, actually, even if America fought for it first. :p But it was generally influenced by the French first.)

Question: I was reading my Bible today, just out of curiousity, I checked where my bookmarks were. (It has been ages, I don't think I've changed my bookmarks since confirmation!)
One of my book marks in on the Sermon of the Mount (I think that's the translation), where Jesus says even considering to kill someone is wrong.
Doesn't this make wanting to kill Saddamn Hussein wrong?

Oh, and Why Iraq shouldn't be allowed to have the weapons?
It's independent country. Yes, it has invaded other countries, but what country hasn't? Even my own small country, Finland, has invaded (Russia! For Goodness Sake, I can't understand what possesses people... ;)) Saddamn hasn't attacked America, as Osama did.

I spend loads time reading your posts :hug: but I can't spend all night answering them.

To quote Milton's Paradise Lost (book 1, 254-55)

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n."

Moregan

03-22-2003, 08:01 PM

Just as a complete aside ... Elfea, your current custom status has sent me into fits of giggles! :D :D :D

Sorry, everyone. Please do carry on :) :D

Rivenlas

03-22-2003, 11:01 PM

Umm, Saddam was behind the first WTC bombing.

I think that Wiccan article did have some good points, and I think it is good that Wiccans worship the same God as I, even if they don't know it.

BTW, another random factoid: did you all know that it is generally believed by muslims (including American muslims) that the muslims who died attacking the trade center went to heaven, or whatever they call it?

:hug: everyone. It is wonderful that we can respect each others opinions.

:hug: Colli. We all love ya. (and I wholeheartedly agree with your opinions!)

Colli

03-22-2003, 11:18 PM

You know the American soldier who went into his own camp and threw grenades at people? (everyone's ok.. injured, but ok). The main suspect is Muslim-American. I'm not going to stop being friends with Ashish (my Indian friend from school)... because he's awesome. But until I get to know Middle Eastern people, I reserve the right to be wary. Just as I'd be wary of white people who fit the description of what the mid-90s called "punks".

FleurD, it takes more faith to believe in the big bang theory than in God. Look at your hand. Look at the way it moves... the intricate design of your skeleton. Look at flowers in the spring... look at the clouds in the sky.

A random smashing together of atoms created that?

StarGazr, :hug:. See, spending all day with those kids isn't so bad. ;)

Elfea, Saddam played a very big part in helping Osama attack America. I heard it explained once... can't exactly remember what the whole story was.

By the way, I love how peace demonstraters flood the streets and block major roadways and break the law and attack police officers to try to oppose war. :rolleyes:

Be friends, even if you disagree.
Well goodness you think I'm going to disown you all? ;) I couldn't leave this place if I tried... and I have tried. I tried last August. :D Was back by September.

Elfea, no one collects weapons of mass destruction for the fun of it. And I'd rather not let Saddam have his "rights" if he means he might try to blow up my country some day.

:hug: Rivenlas, too, because it's always fun when someone actually agrees with you. ;)

Rivenlas

03-22-2003, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by Colli

FleurD, it takes more faith to believe in the big bang theory than in God. Look at your hand. Look at the way it moves... the intricate design of your skeleton. Look at flowers in the spring... look at the clouds in the sky.

Wow. This sounds so familiar--when my dad is talking about proof of whether God exists, he tells me to look at a feather and asks if that could have been randomly created. Really, this applies to anything.

Elfëa

03-23-2003, 07:09 AM

And Why would Saddamn blow up your country Colli? He must have a reason for it... Maybe he sees America as threat? As America sees Iraq..

and, according to Etela-Suomen Sanomat (source according it: STT-Reuters)

Yhdysvaltain joukot eivät ole löytäneet merkkejä epäillyistä kemiallisista tai biologisista aseista, vaikka Irakin väitetyt massatuhoaseet olivat Yhdysvaltain aloittaman sodan syy. Asiasta kertoi yhdysvaltalainen kenraali lauantaina.
Irak on moneen otteeseen kertonut tuhonneensa kaikki kemialliset ja biologiset aseensa.
Presidentti George W. Bush ja Britannian pääministeri Tony Blair syyttävät Irakia YK:n päätöslauselman rikkomisesta. YK:n päätöslauselmat kieltävät Irakilta Scud-ohjusten, kemiallisten ja biologisten aseiden lisäksi ydinaseet.

(Sorry, I know it's Finnish, but I translate :))

USA's troops haven't found any signs of suspected chemical or biological weapons, even if Iraq's claimed weapon's of mass destruction were the reason of the war started by USA. This was told by a American general on Saturday. (sorry, might have gotten the general wrong... I can't remember which is the same equal value in America... gah, I don't even know them in Finnish...)
Iraq has already told many times it has destroyed its all chemical and biological weapons.
President George W. Bush and Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair blame Iraq for breaking UN's resolution. UN's resolutions deny Iraq having besides Scud-missiles, chemical and biological weapons and also nuclear weapons.

Hmm... I find that piece of information interesting, do you?

glaelia

03-23-2003, 09:26 AM

lol elfea agrees with me!! :jawdrop:

oooh! wow!

lol, hope i haven't annoyed anyone either :hug: to one and all, but i'm perfectly happy with my 'lack of faith' and i'm happy for everyone else to have faith... i guess we all agree to disagree!

i do agree with fleurd though ;) i'm a 'big BANG' girl too... as for feathers... i study feathers a lot, i'm doing a zoology degree... and lol feathers haven't been randomly created, they've evolved over thousands, millions of years and different species of birds have evolved by convergent evolution to use very similar designs in feathers for different things. ie eagles use their wing tip feather for soaring, penguins are desined to repel water and to be used as flippers.... evolution fanciates me, and whether or not the world was originally created by a 'god' or by an explosion and a ball of gas and noxious fumes... i mean we're never going to prove either one are we... evolution defiantely exists... that we do have proof of.... and while i know some of you believe that the proof of god is that there is no proof... to my mind i need proof to believe something, and therefore i believe the big bang theory, because we do have proof for that, we have fossils, evolution, and we have watched evolution, there are species of butterfly that have evolved in the kakamega rainforest in kenya over the last hundred years that are only found in that rainforest, evolution happening under our very noses......

i respect all beliefs because i believe everyone has the freedom to believe what they will and want. but mine are stuck fast and they aren't going to change.

StarGazr

03-23-2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Elfëa
Oh, and Why Iraq shouldn't be allowed to have the weapons?
It's independent country. Yes, it has invaded other countries, but what country hasn't? Even my own small country, Finland, has invaded (Russia! For Goodness Sake, I can't understand what possesses people... ;)) Saddamn hasn't attacked America, as Osama did.

I wasn't going to reply to this because I didn't have anything to say... but then I thought, even if I couldn't come up with anything eloquant... I still came up with something...
How do you feel about having weapons pointed at your head. Everyone does, for the most part. All these nukes all over the world... no one really knows how many of them are unaccounted for. I certainly don't like the idea of having Iraqi weapons pointed toward American cities... especially given the fact that I live within twenty miles of one of the largest cities in the nation!
No one should have these weapons... but Iraq poses a threat to the United States right now, and I personally want them out of Iraq. Bush gave Hussein the chance to turn them over, and that offer was refused...

glaelia

03-23-2003, 11:52 AM

iraq doesn't just pose a threat to america, saddam poses a threat to the world, including europe and indeed england. many of the troups out there at the moment are british, if not most of them. this war is affecting britain as much if not more so than america. we're closer after all, easier to hit... more within range...

but lets face it, with the combined power of britain and america, there aren't going to be any planes or bombs leaving iraq to head in either direction... do you really think they'd get very far???

Ravenclaw

03-23-2003, 12:01 PM

OK, WOW, this is a popular thread... I'd be here all night if I wanted to read EVERYTHING thoroughly and REPLY to everything thoroughly... and I need my sleep.

Colli: First off, :hug:! Gosh, I don't want to have you in tears! Aw, feeling bad now... I respect your opinions, and most of all, I respect you for having the courage to voice them. Luv ya!

Also, you said this:

Ravenclaw, I disagree with just about that entire article. Saying you can obey certain mere sentences in the Bible and be able to go to heaven is like saying you can obey certain laws and be a perfect law-abiding citizen. Acts 2:38. The article didn't mention that one. Mark 16:15-16.. didn't mention that one either. Convenient, eh?

Surprisingly enough, I agree with you on that. Hehe. No, cause it's like I've been saying. Everyone interprets the Bible differently because it says exactly what you want it to say when you're looking for something to prove your point. You just gotta know where in the book you have to look. Which is what leads me to think that it's a tad bit contradictory. You can use it as a justification for many things, including things on the opposite side. Sorry bout the commandment things, you're right :o. It's been a while since I've studdied the Christian Bible... And there are so many differences from the Old Testiment and the New Testiment. Like I think in the Old Testiment it says that Eye for an Eye thing, and in the New Testiment it tells you to "turn the other cheek." Now, if you really wanted to justify, oh I don't know, let's bring up another controvertial subject such as capital punnishment, you could quote the old testiment with the "eye for an eye" thing. And yet, people against capital punishment could also quote the New Testiment. Catch my drift?

That's part of the reason I'm not into organized religion... It causes too many excuses for people, when really that wasn't what it was made for.

Oh, and you all were talking about evolution versus God created all. Well, I have a problem with both theories. Semmetry is easily a coincidental chemical thing that happens at the atomic level... I have what I want to say in my head, but it's too hard to put into words. Also, has anyone ever seen the movie pi (as in 3.14....)? Because that is a fascinating psychological thriller adressing this very question: Why is there semmetry? Why is there perfect swirls and spirals and circles in nature? Why is pi 3.14157...? Why that specific number? It's very interesting, I reccomend it to people who like those kinds of movies. Talks about religion and science and... I just like it.

And to the Big Bang, FleurD, as a 'science girl,' and you too, glaelia, you know that most reactions require a catalyst of some sort. If the universe was uncreated for so many eons that didn't really pass (??? still not clear on the time not existing thing), what cause this big bang? Was it a chemical reaction that happened at the atomic level? Or, perhaps religion is right and it was sparked by some other being who wanted to create the universe.

I think what Colli's trying to say is that just because we have fossils and dinasaur bones doesn't mean God didn't create the world and all that live on it. It also doesn't nessissarily mean that evolution didn't happen. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but I'm trying to see both sides. I think that some people believe that God created the fundamentals (and perhaps the catalyst in the Big Bang) in order for animals to evolve on their own, especially Christians who happen to be scientists (watched Stigmata with the scientific priest... I understand religious scientists, but not scientific priests... I can explain that, but later). I mean, where does matter come from anyway? How much do we know of the evolution of atoms?

Someone on here said they considered science a religion (sorry forget who). I actually think that's true.

"How big is the universe?"
"Infinate."
"How do you know?"
"Because all our data and research indicates that."
"But you don't KNOW because it hasn't been proven."
"No, but..."
"You just have to believe it."

The above quote, from A Beautiful Mind, tells me how science and religion are similar to each other. There are many 'theories' scientists have, the size of the universe being one of them. ANd they just BELIEVE it based on the proof they have. And that's what religions do. They don't have any concrete PROOF that there is a God, they just have 'data' and 'theories' and 'research' indicating to these religious scientists that there IS a God. Though some interpret these theories and data and research differently, thus creating different religions, and, of course, the religion of science being one of them.

Oh, and Colli, actually the 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in Catholocism and other branches of Christianity is still the same as the Jewish and Muslim God, though they don't have a 'Son' persay (Unless you count Mohammed for Islam, but he was just a prophet) or a Holy Spirit. They all have the same roots. It's like what I said about polytheism in comparison to monotheism. Just because you worship more than one God and someone else worships only one, isn't it possible that you both could be praying to the same source? Whether He/She/It/They is (are) one or more than one, isn't the principle basically the same? Look to my previous posts for details, but it's kinda confusing...

OK, my third, no, FOURTH movie reference in the post is to that film "Oh God!" I liked the answers they tried to provide for the questions many of people ask. One of the questions they tried to answer as mere men was "If there is a God, then how could He let all this terrible sin and destruction happen?" And the answer was: "I did not make human beings to be puppets. You have your own free will. You do what you please on this world, and though the pain you cause each other saddens me, you have no one to blame but yourselves." Other questions such as "Can you see the future?" were answered as well and "Why were Adam and Eve so foolish if they were made in your form, and can you not forgive them now?" So many interesting takes... But again, it's all about interpretation.

Now, I may get flamed for posting THIS particular reference of religion in movies, but what about "Dogma"? Of course, these movies aren't made to be right, they are made for entertainment, but all I'm saying is, if you consider some of the explinations in these movies, they seem quite plausible. In Dogma, they keep referring to God as different things. Chris Rock says He's black, Salma Hayek says he's a she, Alan Rickman says he/she has a sense of humor... And in the end, Chris Rock tells Linda Fiorentino that "God really isn't a woman. He... isn't really anything. He just... is." Which backs up what someone ELSE said eariler (gosh, my memory ain't what it used to be.) Along with other interesting theories (that I don't nessissarily agree on) from the movie, and others, I think Christianity in movies is interesting because you can see what the writers think of the Christian God.

(Note: Another theory would be in "Signs," but we're not going into that... does anyone else here think I watch too many movies?)

Also: StarGazr: Beautiful post you had a while back. And whether I support this war or not I am never ashamed, and always proud to be an American.

http://tribute.web.aol.com/images/flag.gif

Colli

03-23-2003, 02:33 PM

FleurD: You walk into a kitchen.. it's completely empty as far as you can see, but you look in the pantry and there's a bunch of food and other cookies supplies. You close the pantry door and leave. A few hours later you come back and there's a cake sitting on the table. Now, did the food in the pantry come together randomly to make that cake or did someone come along and create it?

I'm not even going to comment on your mention of Dogma, Raven. :D Alan Rickman was the ONLY good thing about that movie... most of the movie I found seriously offensive, even if it was talking more about Catholics than other Christians. (speaking of Alan, did you think he kinda looked vampirish in Dogma? I just think he'd make a good vampire potions master. :p ;))

Oh, and Colli, actually the 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in Catholocism and other branches of Christianity is still the same as the Jewish and Muslim God, though they don't have a 'Son' persay (Unless you count Mohammed for Islam, but he was just a prophet) or a Holy Spirit. They all have the same roots. It's like what I said about polytheism in comparison to monotheism. Just because you worship more than one God and someone else worships only one, isn't it possible that you both could be praying to the same source? Whether He/She/It/They is (are) one or more than one, isn't the principle basically the same? Look to my previous posts for details, but it's kinda confusing...
I disagree. It is NOT the same God! Christians believe in Father, Son (Christ), Holy Spirit. Jews believe in Father and maybe Holy Spirit, they don't believe Jesus is God. Muslims believe Muhammed was a god, he's their highest prophet, at least. He brought the Koran to Muslims. They don't believe Jesus is God.

Roots or not, that's not the same God. My brothers and I share the same roots but we're not the same people. Now, the differents gods may share similar characteristics, but they aren't the same. Muslims pray to a god that they believe welcomed the 9-11 hijackers into heaven. That is NOT my God. :hug:

I agree that science is a type of religion. Just the word "theory" proves that.

Ravenclaw

03-23-2003, 03:35 PM

Muslims pray to a god that they believe welcomed the 9-11 hijackers into heaven. That is NOT my God.

Please, oh please, oh PLEASE do not make that stereotypical assumption! As I've said before, I hate generalizations (though I use them often). The Muslim people are not like that at all, believe me, I live with them every day! What on earth gave you the idea that they supported 9/11???? No, no, no! Oh, dear, no those hijacker terrorists went against everything the Koran stood for, despite what they said! It's like those irritating Christian biggots (and these are the 'radicals' I am opposed to) who kill inncocent Muslims because they think that they're religion is 'wrong' and all in the name of Jesus Christ! Now, as I said, I am not Christian, but if there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit as you say, do you really think they wanted that to happen? No, no, the Islamic religion is totally and entirely peaceful. There is not a scornful word in their scriptures... It's those darn crazy people that give it a bad name! Please, don't think that!

Um... OK. You disagree. But your Father is the same Jewish Father, or am I wrong? And He is the same Father or Allah of Islam, or am I wrong? This is what I was taught, anyway. These are the three "People of the Book." Argh, I dunno, perhaps I'm wrong.

Argh, yes, sorry about the Dogma statement, and sorry you found the movie offensive. Told you people wouldn't like me saying that... :o

:hug:

Hope I haven't hurt you. OK, I'm gonna stop picking on you now, cause I feel bad...

sirius2004

03-23-2003, 05:25 PM

Muslims DO believe in the same God as Christians AND Jews. Yes there are differences in the beliefs but the Father is the same loving, compassionate, forgiving God. Mahmoud was NOT a God. he was a prophet, like Isiah.
I saw a wonderful analogy on the west wing after sept 11.
Muslim is to Terrorist
as
Christian is to KKK.
Do the people of the KKK BELIEVE they are doing the right thing? Yes. Do they believe in teh same God as Christians, YES.
Did the terrorists of 9-11 BELIEVE they were charged by Alah to do what they did? YES!!! They were wrong, and don't get me wrong, i am in no way defending terrorism. I hate it, i wish as much as any of you that had never happened, but it did and all we can do now is move on.
who are we to judge what's right and wrong? becuase he threatens the nation (more than that. if u really think about it, he threatens the very grounds that civilzation is built on) as a whole, Saddam is considered wrong and must be dealt with accordingly. if that means that we have to go to iraq and kill him, and in doing so cause a war, then go for it. Kill him, it's just a matter of time before he uses the weapons of mass destruction he's hiding and unleashes Pandora's Box on the globe. It is just a matter of time before billions of innocent people die, all we can do is put that off as long as possible.

Kinda scary....from the bible (did know if EVERYONE would want to read it:)
"Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet and I heard a voice coming from the [four] horns of the gold alter before God, telling the sixth angel who held the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the banks of the great river Euphrates (located in [southern??] Iraq)." So the four angels were released, who were prepared for this hour, day, month and year to kill a third of the human race. The number of cavalry troops was two hundred million; I heard their number."

Remus

03-23-2003, 06:29 PM

I agree with both sirius2004 and Ravenclaw, the Gods of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all one. Though the beliefs have seperated over many thousands of years, particularly regarding whether or not Jesus was the messiah, the core ideals of who God is and what He stands for remain the same in all three religions. Most Muslims, like Christians and Jews do not believe God condoned the actions of 9/11, the God they pray to stands for the same things as you pray to, Colli, though I understand you may not see this that way.

I was looking at a few posts about creation, I believe that the Big Bang was how it all began, BUT I leave myself room to accept that it could have been God, because I have no way of truly knowing either way if it was or wasn't because of Him. But, from my knowledge of the design argument (and I can't go into this in too much depth in such a small amount of space - I wrote a 5, 500 word essay on it), it cannot be attributed to the God of Classical Theism (however, that's not to say it isn't, just that it can't be demonstrated because it looks like we have been designed). If I take an extract from my essay:
"Even if there is a designer, it does not prove that the designer is the God of theistic belief. The design argument, like the Cosmological argument, sets out to demonstrate the existence of what is known as the God of theistic thought. Hume points out that, for all we know, a team of gods could have constructed the universe. He demonstrated this by stating that, “a great number of men join in building a house or ship . . . why may not several deities combine in contriving and framing a world.” Therefore, just by looking at the world there is no evidence to suggest that only one God made the universe and that that God is the God of theistic religion.

(This is based on Hume's argument from "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion".)

I know that many disagree with this, I would like to say that I don't mean to offend at all, and I do respect all of your views, even if I do not necessarily agree with them :) :hug:

sirius2004

03-23-2003, 06:44 PM

maybe there is more than one god...but in a sort of way that there is still one. I guess like what we (chrisitans) believe....that there is one god, but He is made up of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Maybe, there are many gods that together make up one God...just a thought.

why is religion so myserious? why can't God (or whoever) just tell us EVERYTHING?!?! why would he leave us searching, confused, blind, and ignorant? why does he leave us here lost, and alone to suffer while he watches? would it have killed him to intervine in time of war? or to limit our free-choice? We don't want the people we love to suffer, so why doesn't God DO something? With freedom comes responsibility, it is his responisiblity to see that we don't destroy everything we've worked so hard to build.
he created us, and he gave us the power to kill one another. There will never be world peace. it is an illusion. Cain envyed able, so cain killed able, there will always be war, there's no way of going around it, and all because people (in general..i know i know bad generalizaion:trout: s self) are too ignorant to see that everyone needs everyone else, and too close-minded to see that just because someone has a different color skin or believes in a different God that they are still PEOPLE and need to be respected as such!!! who's to say that the Buddists are not right and the chrisitans are wrong, the muslims are right and the jews are wrong. OR vice versa!!!! there's no proof either way, so no one has teh right to say "no, you're wrong" it is no living person's place to criticize the beliefs of others just becuase they're different (that's not to say that if someone believes that the laws of gravity are a joke and jumps off a building, you can't say "HA LOOK you WERE wrong..."
why can't people just understand that no one's right and no one's wrong unless PROVEN otherwise!

[edit: btw...Remus, You WROTE that??? wow...that's really good..i wish i could write like that.]

Colli

03-23-2003, 06:58 PM

Ok, the Jews worship the Father, I worship the Father. But the Father is only one person in the Godhead, he's only ONE part of it. I'm sorry, but no religion who does not believe Christ was the Son of God and thus God Himself worships the same God I do. They may worship the same Father, but they do not worship the same God. That's like making two salads (into food analogies today ;)), one with lettuce, carrots, and tomatoes; and one with lettuce only, and saying they're both the same salad.

Wow. Never in my life, nowhere I've been, have I met ANYONE who believed in the Big Bang theory until here. :o But I can't even respect that opinion.. because it's so ludicrous. Not even my crazy Biology teacher from freshman year believes in the Big Bang... he generally considered it "debunk".

:hug: I think I misrepresented what I was feeling in that initial tears post... I guess I didn't feel as insulted as I felt... sad. It's hard to explain when you all don't even believe in God.

sirius2004

03-23-2003, 07:05 PM

What is so ludicrous about answering the age old questions of the human race with modern science??? There is more evidence to back up the Big bang then the one chapter in genesis that says "let there be light" how do YOU account for the wonders of the scientifically known universe? do you think that God just decieded "ok lets make pretty colors for the silly people on that tiny unimportant planet, Earth, to look and wonder at" something about that doesn't seem quite right. If God just CREATED the world and all its inhabitants out of nothing they why did he bother to create anything else? why bother w/ the tiny details of galaxies, quasars, black holes, dark matter, other planets, other stars, nebulae, globular clusters, the list goes on and ON!!! how do you account for those???

[edit: no offence or anything but who are you to say that our beliefs are wrong?? sorry if ^ that sounds harsh, but that's just how I see things, i'm not saying that you're wrong for believeing that, i just can't understand why you think we're wrong for believing that. there are major problems in the world, not just today, but there always have been...people are not willing to RESPECT other's ideas/opinions...its those kind of beliefs and thoughts that cause wars and hatred. consider.]

Fleurdelacour

03-23-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Colli
FleurD: You walk into a kitchen.. it's completely empty as far as you can see, but you look in the pantry and there's a bunch of food and other cookies supplies. You close the pantry door and leave. A few hours later you come back and there's a cake sitting on the table. Now, did the food in the pantry come together randomly to make that cake or did someone come along and create it?

I'm not quite sure what a pantry is exactly, but I presume its a cupboard or something ;)

Well, if I walked back into the kitchen seeing a cake put together, I'd 1. wet myself with fright. 2. I'd ask myself "Is there someone here?" or "Did it make it by itself?" Either way, I'd be dying of fright!

If some one had made it, I'd get a knief in the kitchen, go around the house waiting for someone to pounce on me, then it'd turn out it was my mum who baked a cake or something and left it as a treat ;)

But that question is un-scientific :p. What about the dinosaurs? You never answered. And evolution, you tell me to look at my skelton, and how the design is so intrecate. But that's evolution, we've adapted, science is an amazing thing (I wish I was doing it at a-level, but my career isn't going to be scienctific...)

*

Today, a Dixie Chick song came on in the car, and my mum said to my dad "I'm suprised it wasn't banned!" I then asked "Why?"

She replied, saying (these are her words, not mine, before you trout me!) "In America you are not alloud to speak out against your president, you'd be considered a traitor."

But if that's the case, then what gives America the right to liberate Iraqis (es we've had this, but this is another angle, I think...) If someone speaks out againsy Bush Stateside, you'd be stoned (not literally, metaphorically...)

*

16 Britons (not including the ITN War Correspondant :( ) Have been killed, not even in action!

The ITN Reporter was killed by coalition forces! His jeep had TV written on it in bold letters on all sides. So, what's that all about? :(

edit:

A few people have posted whist I've been tapping away, and get got this from Colli

I think I misrepresented what I was feeling in that initial tears post... I guess I didn't feel as insulted as I felt... sad. It's hard to explain when you all don't even believe in God.

I'm sure we all have our own personal reasons for not believing, but it's our choice, and it shouldn't make you sad :( :hug: