Order of the Phoenix: reactions, speculations and discussion. SPOILERS !!! [Archive]

Pengi

06-22-2003, 05:25 AM

Well, I finished the book yesterday. Here goes (definately spoilers here, will be mentioning who dies etc)...

I think the death seems to have affected me more than anyone else I've talked to. I loved the Sirius character development through the book, especially Hermione's comment that he was living through Harry. I began seeing here that Sirius wasn't a perfect godfather like I imagined. Sirius had been one of my favourite characters beforehand, but this definately sealed it for me. So needless to say, I wasn't too happy when he died. Actually, I started crying after Harry had the dream, because I was sure he was going to die. Actually afterwards I thought I should have realised before that, because of all the character development he was getting. I can't even put into words how it really makes me feel that he's dead. I keep rereading this and it looks like I'm just lightly commenting on it. But I feel like someone real who I actually knew is dead.

I was disappointed with Lupin, I was expecting him to make a kind of triumphant return, being a serious Lupin fan (hehehe ... puns). But he didn't really say much, do much, or develop much. Or seem to care when Sirius snuffed it. I mean, this is his only other childhood friend here! I'm not saying he didn't go off and mourn somewhere else, but I was hoping he'd talk to Harry about it.

Okay, Snape's Worst Memory. Loved, loved, loved this chapter. I was looking forward to it since I saw the chapter name, and it didn't disappoint me. Finding out that James was well, a bullying git, was an eye-opener. And even though I'm not a huge Snape fan it was satisfying to see that he'd been more or less right all these years. This made me like him a lot more. I better not start liking him too much though, or JK will have to kill him off. I also thought all the younger versions of MWPP were great, especially Sirius. Oh, and Lupin! "One: he's sitting on my chair. Two: he's wearing my clothes. Three: his name's Remus Lupin." :D Reading things like this makes me wish JK would write the MWPP years at Hogwarts.

Umbridge I don't really want to go into too much, but suffice to say that I began punching things and yelling whenever she gave Harry another weeks worth of detentions for breathing. I really, really hated her. In my opinion, she went a bit over the top later on.

Quiddich. I had big hopes, but once Ron joined the team it kind of became a big joke. The "Weasley is our king" song was excellent though.

Not enough raging hormones for me. Only Harry kissing Cho and finding out she was an idiot after all. Not even any Ron and Hermione! After Hermione kissed Ron on the cheek, I was sure something was going to happen. But no. Well, at least I can pretend Sirius and Lupin were shacking up. Well, why was Lupin in Sirius's house when Harry wanted to talk to Sirius? :D (If this was actually answered, which is likely, you don't have to tell me.)

Ron and Hermione being prefects was cool, although nothing much was made of it later. Oh well.

The prophecy? Didn't really get it, perhaps because my mind was on other things (Sirius). I will go back and re-read when I've re-read Snape's Worst Memory at least ten more times (soon).

Some random thoughts:

Umbridge's hand coming out of the fire and grasping for Sirius's head was quite a scary image.

I missed Hagrid. Yes, he was there, but didn't seem to do much.

Percy. What was up with him? And how does he know Ron is "still seeing a lot of Harry Potter"?

Well done Fred and George. I would have got out of there as quickly as possible too.

End of term feast. Missed seeing that, even though if I was Harry I would have skipped it too.

I have no idea what the next two books are going to be like without Sirius. They'll never be the same.

mallorniphredil

06-22-2003, 06:28 AM

Finished it in one afternoon.... too excited, i guess..... :D

This book is really 'darker'. I tried to read Goblet of Fire immediately afterward and felt the whole-heartedness of the whole thing.

Very mild stuff but to be safe....

Angry Harry got on my nerves after a while, and whenever I saw some text that was all-caps, I just skimmed and skipped it. :D

Umbridge :p .... Long Live the Twins and their patch of swamp! :p

I agree, if Mr. Weasley had died suddenly, it would have had more impact on mine than Sirius'. Spells and curses flying everywhere from both sides, someone has to die.

Since Harry and Cho don't look like they'll be getting together anytime soon, may I suggest Harry and Luna Lovegood? :p

Moxie

06-22-2003, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by Pengi
I began seeing here that Sirius wasn't a perfect godfather like I imagined...Finding out that James was well, a bullying git, was an eye-opener. And even though I'm not a huge Snape fan it was satisfying to see that he'd been more or less right all these years. This made me like him a lot more. I better not start liking him too much though, or JK will have to kill him off.
It didn't occur to me until several hours (including some long-needed sleep ;)) later how similar James' and Sirius' Snape-tormenting was to the Death Eaters playing with the Muggle family at the Quidditch World Cup during GoF. I don't think this is a concidence (is anything in the Potterverse?) and am glad to see that Harry empathized with Snape as he did with the Muggles; hopefully Snape will someday find out that his assumption Harry would laugh along with his father and godfather's bullying was wrong.(Could it be that Harry's eyes are symbolic of his being, despite looking mostly like James, more like Lily who stood against such actions no matter who perpetrated them?)
And if JKR must kill off Our Favorite Potions Master :eek: it had better not be before Book 7, and it had better be the hero's end he seems to deserve more the more we learn of him.

Elwen

06-22-2003, 08:35 AM

Please, people!

This thread has a spoiler warning IN THE TITLE and there are spoiler boxes.

Could we perhaps start discussing this properly? It is the point of the warnings that those who have read the books can speak freely in this thread. If someone who has not read the book comes in and reads the spoilers it is perhaps because they want to.

Anyway - can you please stop being so cryptical that even people who have read the book find it hard to follow?

Well, here's mine - spoilers and all!

Well, I really loved the book - although not for the reasons I would have expected. Very odd.

I usually hate the bits at the Dursley's - I find the caricature very crude - but this tiume round was interesting. I loved Primula's reaction. Very interesting and I'd like to see where this is going. :)

I *loved* the bit where Harry finds himself in the surreal position to talk about Voldemort and Dementors in the presence of the Dursleys (I live in a world that my parents don't at all understand and I find the rare crossovers very odd, too - although the contrast isn't quite as crass ;) )

I like angry Harry - high time he raved against his fate. But I like that he is less ranting against his fate per se, but rather against people who are trying to be overprotective. :)

Good call.

It is so great that Harry is actually thinking about passing on his experience. Those DA classes are a great thing - I'd like to have seen more. I love that Neville seems to come into his own. Harry is clearly a good teacher!

I agree with Pengi about a strange absence of hormones in the whole thing - but it is very unfair on Cho to call her an idiot. I don't think I'd have reacted much differently. She is older than Harry - and at this age boys tend to be a bit behind emotionally anyway so it is bound to be tricky. I like Cho, though - she is a nice girl and she cares for Harry. I hope they get together.

I loved Hermione's advice to Harry :) 'You should have said that you don't like me because you find me ugly' indeed - that girl is truly a good friend.

And I love how she teaches herself to say Voldemort. That's great.

I think Ron is great, too - he really is growing on me and I was so afraid that he would die. Very scared till the last moment. And in the end I hoped that Sirius would die, as long as Ron didn't.

And the Twins rock! YAY! :D

Snape: very interesting indeed. I SO hope that he learned from seeing Harry's memories as Harry learned from seeing his. If he has any will to think about Harry he must have seen that Harry will never be like his father. Very interesting twist to see Harry's father as a bully.... Snape also doesn't turn out to be like Malfoy. I was just curious - would Snape be on Sirius' family tree as well or is he mixed blood as well? Would be interesting to get more of his background. (but this time the sorting hat says Slytherin only takes pure blooded pupils? Why was Tom Riddle in Slytherin then?).

But so far we have been made to think that the parallel James Potter/Snape and Harry/Draco worked. Now we see that actually, that isn't right at all. Seems that Draco and James are the bullies!!!

What's Draco's role in all this, I wonder.....?
Why is he a prefect? Why doesn't Snape see that he is the bully?

There are things I didn't like or care for - Hagrid and the giant sub-plot is tedious I find. I like Hagrid but it always boils down to the same thing. I also never cared as much about the order of the Phoenix than I am probably expected to. I just don't care.
The Quidditch sub-plot also didn't really get anywhere for me - except, perhaps, that Ron is no longer jealous of Harry. Which is an improvement.

Strangely, I was looking forward to Dumbledore's talk to Harry... and then I really wasn't all that taken by it. Perhaps I'll have to revisit it. So what's new? I felt disappointed by it: not that much new information, really. At least he apologized. But Harry still has reason to feel angry. Dunbedore isn't treating him as he deserves, IMHO.

As I have already said - I was less affected by Sirius' death than I might have been - I guess I didn't care for his character development during the book. Will Harry, by the way, ever think about the implication of that mirror he never unpacked and that would have given him a chance to talk to Sirius and save him that way?

The prophecy:
I guess I expected that at some point or other Harry will have a final show-down with Voldemort. Would be great, though, if in the end it wasn't Harry who killed him.... I am curious what the knowledge will do to Harry. The idea about the animals who are only visible to those who have seen death is rather a good one, I found. It made me sad to think of that, and it was interesting how Harry was affected by this. And now he has a future murder (or his own death as alternative) on his conscience, whether it will happen in the end or not. That is quite something :eek:

I wonder where Neville will be in all this. And I also wonder about that Luna... these were the three people singled out in this way. And Luna is rather odd, in a way.
If anything about the prophecy surprised me it was that Neville (and perhaps others, too?) could be at the centre of it. That's a great idea.

Re. the whole stuff about Umbridge, the Daily Prophet and the Ministry....
Lots of interesting thoughts on the role of the press and public opinion - I like a message like this in a book for children and adults in days like these. And I guess the book was more or less conceived long before the last war and the press distortions on both sides of the argument. Good call, JK!!
I liked the 'revolution' in the school (Yay for the Twins!) and the way information travels.
The ministerial edicts reminded me of animal farm :D

I liked that part of the plot, though. Including its 'message' - because I find the message important.

All in all, I liked it. But I think my fav is still book 3.

By the way: Do you think the films had an impact on the books? Was it me or is Snape now described like Alan Rickman's veryion?

And At some point Ron has a 'mental, I tell you, mental' moment - that reminded me of the film so much. Also, Ron seems to be getting very tall and thin - like the guy who plays him at the moment (and who is now a head taller than the guy who plays Harry) :D

Do you think the films had an impact on the books?
Do you think other books had an impact?
Do you think that fan reactions had an impact?

Elwen

ChianaWeasley

06-22-2003, 11:21 AM

there are moments in the book where it seems she tried to clean up all the fans questions and speculations. For example; Ginny no longer has feelings for harry. BUT since Cho seems to be out of his system...I still think there is a very big chance for the two of them.

And as far as I'm concerned Siriius isn't dead. I still cried though, especially at the part with the mirror he gave Harry. But Im certain they are not dead.

Elwen

06-22-2003, 12:21 PM

hmmmmmmmm..... I am not so sure. Do you think JKR lied when she said that she cried because she had to kill him off (she always said it was a he, so I won't consider that spoiler box worthy)?

Interesting theory anyway.

And I really don't see why CHo should be out of Harry's system. But then, I like her :)

I like how Ginny dresses Harry down at some point. She is no longer the young girl who just admires him and that makde her interesting to me (for the first time).

I love when she said something like 'well, unlike you I have ben posessed by Voldemort before so let me tell you what it is like' :D

Good call, Ginny.

The Weasleys really got a big boost in this one (apart from Percy, of course)

I also guess that they were planning to leak the story about the character who would die. I got a real shock in the scene where Mrs. Weasley sees Ron dead :eek: because she can't deal with that Boggart in the Black house....

Elwen

susanna

06-22-2003, 12:27 PM

Well, I think spoiler boxes tedious, so I will try only to say things that are no spoilers.

The book is too long. (From one who spent her weekend reading it and decided not to read the showdown but enjoy the fine wheather.

Likes:

Harry and his friends growing up. I wonder what ten-years think of it, but I like it.

Ron becoming more independent of Harry - Quiddich goalkeeper and prefect - this is no longer the ugly little duckling story with Harry being the best in everything that counts as in volume 1 - it's a story about complicated friendships

All those parts about being alone and the agony of having noone to talk to - or thinking you have noone to talk to

Harry realizing that his father was not perfect. The first volume was about a child finding his true family (ugly duckling again) this volume is about his discovering that his father is not perfect and about becoming someone for himself, not just a younger copy of James.

The realistic description of school matters.

Dislikes:

Too much fat - too much indulgence in subplot and cameos of old characters as Lockhart and Firenze and too much indulgence in descriptions of this and that

I was not really interested in the end. I am far more interested whether Dolores Umbridge was "only" working for the ministry or for Voldemort himself.

And another question: What about the results of their OWLs? Will Harry be able to take up all the subjects he needs to be an auror?

ChianaWeasley

06-22-2003, 01:07 PM

And another question: What about the results of their OWLs? Will Harry be able to take up all the subjects he needs to be an auror?

Well, I wonder if they'll have to be discredited (at least the Defense Against The Darks arts exam anyway) due to the...difficulties within the classroom. My guess is they all pass, and like McGonnagall said Harry's past credits in DADA classes were very high. The only thing that will keep him back is potions, but I guess thats pretty obvious huh;)

I miss them being together all the time, I know it has to happen, but it was as if half the book when they were together Harry was just plain being nasty to them. As Hermione finallyasks him to stop biting their heads off.

I loathe Umbridge with the depths of my soul, I dont think I've ever hated a character as much as I hated the woman!!:mad: What she did was just....oh!....I need to go wash something.
And all of those new decrees she kept posting, you get really sick of them popping up, really makes it predictable. and she can put that evil quill right up her you know what :D

I do love how Neville is finally starting to come out of his shell, and he's getting really good at DADA. His efforts are paying off, and I still strongly feel he's going to play a big role in the upcoming books. He was the last baring with Harry at the end, which I liked alot, compared to him lying on the commonroom floor stiff as a board. :)

And my question is: Where was the snogging between Ron and Hermione? ;)

lizz

06-22-2003, 03:02 PM

I loved it
the worst:
worst for me was sirius death. I feared that one, somehow it feels a person I love is dead, I cant remember when I last had this reaction by the death of a book character. I really really loved him, I´m going to miss him very much.
Someone - sorry forgot who and I´m not checking with the spoiler boxes - pointed out he wasnt a perfect godfather for Harry. Well for me he has never been, he was an impulsive, reckless, thoughtless - in the way of not considering the consequences of his actions - guy but perfect in the way he cares for Harry. And I like his descpition in OoTP. Very realistic, he must have gone mad always being kept in that house. And his story just makes me very sad. Being brought up in such a family, spending 12 years in Azkaban, 2 years in hiding before being killed in a battle. a small consolation is as Lupin or Dumbledore, dont remember who said he would have preferred being killed to being imprisoned all the time. I guess he is right. And in answer to however ponited out Lupin didnt seem to care, I think Lupin did care for his death, his voice was breaking, but the first priority was keeping harry back.
Sirius details:
Hermione saying if he thinks its a good idea maybe it really isnt is just hilarious.
First I was pretty mad at Harry for not thinking about the mirrors, but honestly Sirius had him there for days and didnt care to explain, not even when Harrys head appeared in the fire. he should have said next time use the mirros or something like that. so blame that on yourself.

to the Dursleys
I really loved hearing Petunia taking about Dementors. Hilarious. How much does she know about the wizarding world? and I too would have loved to know dudleys worst fear.

thr order:
I loved them, they are great, nice characters. But they really should have been more plain about their actions. And Ms Figg being a squib was great, I would have bet she was a witch.

the weasleys.
:notworthy to Fred and George, I loved their exit from the school and obviosly the shop is doing well, but I missed a reaction from Mrs.Wealsy. Rons reaction to Harrys confession about the money was great and unexpectet. ´Great, then ists your fault´. No jelousy about the money.
Arthurs muggles cures and stiches - hilarious. I really feared he would be the one who died. And brutally I would have preferred his death over sirius death, I like Arthur very much but i dont love him like sirius.
Ginny:
Great development there. Telling Harry off. :clap: thats way better than being afraid to speak in his presence. I still want the two of them to pair up. And did you notice, ron too, he looks at Harry and is disapointet when she says she is going out with Dean. And coming up with the name Dumbledores army.
Percy is interesting. I dont like his development but somehow I´m impressed that he has broken up with his family. totally wrong choice but at least he is honest about it. i didnt think he would be. Interesting to watch for the future.
Mrs. Weasley.
Not much to say here, partly I liked her bickering with sirius, partly they were getting on my nerve.
Ron:
that was great, finally not in the shadow any more. Not jelious any more, at least not obviosly. And it did much good to his friendship with Harry. And I still want to know how prefects are being chosen

Harry:
I really liked him in this one, he was much more of a character, I loved his anger. he has a right to be angry. And how he is struggling with his anger.

marauders.
when and where did harry get his map back? dumbeldore allows harry a lot, but giving this back?
I liked the glimpses back, Sirius and James behaviour against Snape is unbelievable. I do understand harrys shock. and snapes aversion. What do you think, was Snapes going into the shrieking shack bevor or after this ´incident ´ Somehow I do believe it was after.
what do you think about sirius and snapes aversion. do you think its because of their similar background? After all sirius said snape knew more than anyone about the dark arts and was obsessed by them. I guess sirius knew a lot about that too, with his background. But he chose to be against the dark arts and snape for them.
Sirius and Snape surely were conceited, snape describes it very well with strutting about the school putting up with Peters obvious bootlicking. Really mad of them.
I want to know more about their story.
But Snape not being able to make a difference between harry and James. what James did isnt harrys fault. His favoring of Malfoy looks like he wants harry to be treated like he was treated by james. And stopping harry teaching something so important because of that? He should have been able to grow out of that.:rolleyes:

The prophesy:
I´m feeling like talking the matrix here :rolleyes: Principally I like it better than the idea about they heirs. But I´m not sure how I feel about it. got to think about that one a little more.

Dumbledore:
I was a bit mad with him, but his appearance in the fight was impressive.

Luna:
I liked her, good addition. I think she really liked Ron

hermione
great, clever ressortful as ever, I was expecting a bit more by all that talk about her lightneing up even more and I was really surprised she skissed ron, and I´m curious about her relationship with Krum.

Cho:
Poor girl, but it was difficult for her. But its not a good idea for a sixteen year old girl to date a fifteen year old boy. Espesialy if she is goint through a difficult time. I see no future for them and I´m glad Harry is over this crush. I do bleieve him when he says he is

And that is my longest post ever. ;) I´m looking forward to the discussion with you :) sorry for the typos

Estel Lomëwen

06-22-2003, 03:43 PM

:LOL: @ susanna! Nah, people do that in Georgia too. I mean the state of the US, not the country I've never been to. But I think cutesy suburban life is universal. :p

I finished yesterday morning but somehow couldn't get into the site yesterday. (???) But I'm here now, so I have to react.
Harry's hormone attacks are driving me insane! He's so grumpy... lashing out at everyone... jeeze. :rolleyes: I thought you were supposed to do that around age 13, not 15. Cho also drove me a bit nuts but at least she's out of the picture now.

Fred and George are my heroes! :clap: I've often wanted to just walk out of school (or fly out) and never come back. Especially now that I'm of legal age to do so. I also loved how all the teachers responded to their tricks and rebellion! (McGonagall, Flitwick & Co., I mean.) It amuses me to no end to see teachers rebelling like that. I loved McGonagall in this book.

Umbridge truly freaked me out. I have to say I read all the stuff saying the books were getting far more "adult", but I never thought by that they meant "sadistic"! A lot of little kids are gonna be scarred for life here.

The Percy thing is so depressing. That was a great plot twist, but I feel so bad for his parents... it's hard to commend a writer for something like that when the characters it's hurting seem so real to you.

I love how she pulled Neville into the middle of it with the prophecy. He's been sitting on the sidelines the whole time but I always kinda felt like there was something special about him. Maybe it's just a 'sticking up for the underdog' thing but I really love Neville. I was very proud of him toward the end. ;)

I will be crying over Sirius for the next month. By the time I read it yesterday morning I was too tired to know what was going on, but now it's hit me and I am very upset. :( But then, the book wouldn't have the same impact if they all lived happily ever after, I guess.... but wah!!!

Fleurdelacour

06-22-2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by ChianaWeasley
And my question is: Where was the snogging between Ron and Hermione? ;)

Snogging? lol, Americans dont use that word do they? :p

I have to say, I giggled manically when Harry and Cho kissed, I really need to grow up, or maybe it's because I was so shocked to see Harry grow up and have his first snog...

The OWLS brought dreadful memories backt o me, as OWLS are the wixarding equililent on GCSES ;) All the revision, sick of revision... The History Of Magic exam, was how I went through my History exam, very strange...

I think I might kill JKR for making me cry so much in the space of 14 hours... I cried when, well EVERY Ron bit, and oviously the death... (I'll put into spoilers just in case, and I know Ravenclaw has fun highlighting them :p)

I was so happy for Ron when he was made prefect, oh I cried with glee! lol I am HOPELESS!! But I love my Ron...

In Mrs Weasley's Woes, when Harry saw Ron 'dead' I cried... I didnt want to read anymore, I really thought my Ron was dead... Silent tears ran down my face...

I cried when Ron was made Keeper, and I cried when that Weasley is OurKing song was sung by the Slytherins... My hopelessness runs deep...

I was just so happy for him, and then the awful Slytherins were putting him down:mad: so you can only just imagine how much I cried when Gryffindor won the cup!!

I also cried, when my much loved Sirius was killed... I refused to believe that he had died.. I've only just finished, so I'm still in shock, my eyes are still wet... It still hasn't registered with me, that Sirius is... dead...

Well, half of me was relieved when it was Sirius dead and not my Ron or my Hermione (though, I must say, when Hermione passed out like that, I was sure it was her, because at about 1am this morning, I got a call from someone, it was a witheld number saying "HERMIONE DIES!"

Insert-Swear-Word-Here...

Umbridge... Oh that woman made my blood boil!!! :mad: I've never hated a woman so much in my entire life! I'm convinced, JKR must have had my old Headteacher Mrs Scanlan once... The woman was, just so, (cant find a wod strong enough to discribe her... ) UGH! Hated her, so much... I was so fustrated, just hoping Dumbledore would do something... But no, he leaves!!!

I did love the DA though, that's the sort of thing I'd come up with if one of our old teachers was, well lacklustre ;)

Fred and George - I salute you!!! :D I'll miss them..

I was right about Percy though! :D Only Weasley I've ever hated...

The Prophecy... Hmmm.... was a bit weird, I dont know, I dont think my brain could cope with it after

I think I'll shut up now... My head is literally pounding like Harry's scarSirius's death... Someone said that... sorry cant remember who, I've a headache, so dont kill me!

I was awfully disipointed that nothing appeared to happen between Ron and Hermione, apart from Hermione kissing him on the cheek, and Ron then rubbing his cheek in shock... Harry's head was a bit messed up, so maybe we didn't see much of Ron because of this...

I also felt something was missing from the books... I dont know what, maybe it was the fact I read the book nonstop (literally... I feel asleep on my windowsill for a few hours...) and had a dreadful headache... Maybe, I had such high expectations of the book, and I felt as though, they weren't really fulfilled...

It's so strange, after waiting three years, I've finished, however, I still keep on thinking (rather guiltily...) "like a rushed fan fiction."

I'm a bit miffed at that... I feel as though there's nothing really left to explain... *sigh* I don't know... I need to eat and sleep right now...

However, I did get VERY excited when Mr Weasley was mentioning places all over London, like Elephant and Castle, which contains the very ugly bright red, shopping centre, which I happen to live quite close too... OK, I squealed a lot...

Colli

06-22-2003, 04:31 PM

:eek:

I'm in shock.... still in tears actually.. my face is red and splotchy and I have mascara running down my face.

Anyway, I don't really know where to start so I'll just ramble:

The Death:
Just about every time throughout the course of the book when someone would get hurt I thought they were going to die. I even thought Katie Bell was going to bleed to death there for a while. ;) But somewhere in the middle of the book, the way Sirius was acting, I KNEW he was going to die. It was this dread in the back of my mind.. I just knew it was coming. And I cried and I cried and I cried and I'm STILL crying.

Oh, and I thought we weren't supposed to learn about ghosts until book 6?

Percy: Not surprised in the slightest!!!! I mean, we all knew he was going to act nutters, right? His ambition far exceeds his love toward his family. I'm mainly curious as to how he's gonna to act toward his family now that Fudge has admitted that Voldemort has returned.

McGonagall: Is it just me, or has she become one of the coolest teachers ever?

Tonks: I really like her! For some reason she reminds me of Dory from Finding Nemo...

The Prophecy: Once again, not surprised in the slightest. You can't allow us to speculate for 3 years and then hope that we haven't guessed it. So Harry and Voldie have to fight to the death... poor Harry.

Snape: First of all, was anyone else TERRIBLY upset that we had to read about 300 pages before he got a mention? I mean, he was mentioned being at Order headquarters.. but he didn't really get any "screentime" until much much much later. I hate that Umbridge woman, but I hate her even more for kind of taking Snape's place.

The flashback scene didn't really surprise me either... fan fiction fans know Snape was picked on as a kid. ;) But James' actions really shocked me.

Snape wearing grey underpants?!?!?!?!?! I could swear he wore boxers with little snakes on them. :D

Umm... Dumbledore next: I was really bothered by Harry's point of view on this... it was awful that Dumbledore wouldn't talk to him! But when he sat down and told Harry "everything" (more on that later), I started to love him again. Admitting he has faults, makes mistakes.

Harry: I don't blame him in the slightest for acting the way he did, nor do I find it annoying or offensive. It was about time he blew up and yelled at people for his situation, and taking it out on his friends is a perfectly normal reaction. And then he started getting shadowed by everyone... Ron and Hermione being prefects, etc. And even though he was acting like a baby, it was natural.

Prefects: There seems to be a lot of confusion on this matter. It appears that prefects are chosen by Dumbledore himself, not the heads of house. I always thought they were chosen based on grades, but I guess not. :) And when Dumbledore actually cried for Harry, awww. :hug: So the big question is: why on earth did Dumbledore choose Draco? I guess he figured Draco would bully the prefect into doing whatever he wanted, anyway.

Dumbledore telling Harry "everything": I loved this part, but in my opinion, it was terribly disappointing. I was hoping a full account of his parents' history... what their home lives were like, what his grandparents did for a living, where the Potters got all that money, full details of the Potters going into hiding, etc. I am satisfied with what information we were given.. but it's hardly "everything"!!!!!

Neville: I've never been a huge Neville fan, but I've got to say that this book really improved his image. Seeing him at St Mungo's with his parents, him joining Dumbledore's Army, it was all very cool. Him helping Harry fight (interesting that they were the only two left based on what Dumbledore later told Harry) was very very cool, even if he couldn't help much. Go Neville!

Peter Pettigrew: Where was he? The fact that he was only mentioned in discussions about MWPP, and is never mentioned in reference to the Death Eaters and Voldemort I find VERY suspicious. How'd he manage to escape an 860 page book?

Hagrid: You know, now I kinda wish his character had died (rather than Sirius!!!!!!!). Because the giants storyline kinda bugged me, and Hagrid got really annoying.

Centaurs: hits self in the head. You know, I can't BELIEVE I didn't pick up on the "Mars is bright tonight" stuff in The Sorceror's Stone. Mars... god of war. DUH Colli! I kinda wish they'd murdered Umbridge, that horrible woman.

Umbridge: Well, see above. ;) But she was really well-written... IMO more sinister and evil than Voldie himself. Because while Voldie is hateful and menacing.. she's creepy! With her honeyed voice and overkind demeanor, I dunno, it seems 10 times more unnerving than Snape seething pure hate everywhere or Voldie's henchmen yelling "Avada Kedavra!".

Did anyone else pick up that there was a character near the beginning of the book with the surname of Evans? I wonder!

There was a character named Inigo! Cool! (A 17-year old Harry Potter slowly approaches Lord Voldemort, his wand outstreched. "Hello" he says. "My name is Harry Potter. You killed my father. Prepare to die.")

I think if Harry ends up in Potions next year I'll die laughing. There's no way he managed an outstanding, but then again, what will our precious Potions master do if he doesn't have little James -er, Harry- in his class?

Seamus: That part of the story came as a slap in the face. I never expected one of Harry's friends (or "mates", as Rowling has suddenly taken to calling them ;)) to act like that. It was like dumping a cold bucket of water over my head.

Thestrals: Way cool creatures, bravo Rowling!

Luna Lovegood: I really like her... although I can't place why.

Dumbledore means "bumblebee".. I always wondered why. Then I read the phrase "Dumbledore's flight" and all of a sudden I burst out laughing.. Flight of the Bumblebee!! Etymology is too cool.

Fred and George rock. I don't really think I need to explain that one.

I loved the book, naturally, but I'm afraid that my love was only driven by the thirst for new information. It will take several re-reads for me to determine the drive of the plot, like how the plot drives PoA and GoF.

But it really lacked some Snape lovin'. *sigh*... back to the fan fiction world I guess.

Cedric

06-22-2003, 05:45 PM

Woah woah woah.... Just to let you know, I haven't read any of this topic. But has anyone here really finished yet??? I'm like 5 or 6 chapters through (I donno, what the number of "the order of the phoenix"?)

Oh well...

-Cedric

ChianaWeasley

06-22-2003, 05:58 PM

LOL, yeah Cedric. I finished it yesterday :)
Didn't really go to bed after I bought it....
didn't do much the next day either.....

Dont worry Colli, I'll just say this.
Not dead.

And dont feel bad, I was driven by finding out who died, I sat on the couch saying in my head 'muct know, gotta finish'

but I loved it all the same

Swendula

06-22-2003, 06:47 PM

Anybody remember me?? ;)

*hugs Ced and Fleurd and Colli and all the new people I haven't met yet*

And I thank you muchly for the spoiler spaces. Cause I was too lazy for the past six months to go reserve myself a copy and now every single store in the northeast Ohio area has sold out *pout* To make matters worse, I've got three people who are waiting for me to quickly finish it (heh, like that will be a problem) once I get it so they can read it as well.

Once I finish I'll be back to chat!! :)

cheers!!
Swen

susanna

06-22-2003, 07:11 PM

Detention with Dolores Umbridge - one of the scariest scenes of all.

Yeah, McGonagall is quite cool. I love that career advice scene. First telling Harry that only the best get chosen to be Aurors - and then getting down to rather mundane questions, as to what subjects he should take when he wants to be an auror.

There are some things I don't like about the book. For example it seems the main storyline is about Umbridge, not about Voldemort...
Sirius' death: Completely unnecessary. She gets rid of one of the most fascinating characters and of a character who could be of great help for Harry to become a responsible grown-up, even if he himself does not always act in a responsible way. I'd preferred him to stay alive and reform.

The only reason why he had to die seems to me that J.K. Rowling wanted someone to die to make the story really dark - and it had to be a well-beloved character.

Mirdan

06-22-2003, 08:06 PM

well, there's not much left for me to say in here, especially since most of the reactions that everyone has already mentioned were the same as mine :D, but just some (redundant) thoughts on a couple of things in the book...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh! Sirius's death completely threw me off course! i knew JKR was going to kill someone off, i just never thought it was going to be Sirius! why now?! we hardly knew anything about him, apart from the fact that he's verging on the manic depressive side, but still! he was one of my favorite characters, and now he's gone! gone! i started bawling like a baby when Lestrange got him on the chest :( but what was really strange was that arch...anyone have any idea what that is? Luna seem to hint that it was some kind of portal where the spirits of the dead go...? if so, then does that mean Harry's parents are in it too? and Cedric? i don't have the book with me anymore (sister pilfered it off my hands as soon as i was finished), but what is that place? there were voices in it. and then there was that little bit with Headless Nick. what did he mean by being afraid of death? is that why he's still haunting Hogwarts? don't really know anything about this...i've been avoiding any OotP spoilers since GoF. heh, this is beginning to sound like the Matrix thread in C-o-E ;)

Dumbledore -- i was a little disappointed that his presence wasn't as "pronounced" as it have been in the last few books. and i can somehow understand Harry's attitude throughout the book, him being sort of in the dark while the rest of the people around him seemed to know more that they ought to. i was kind of bewildered in the scene when Dumbledore confronted Voldemort...i wanted the Professor to finish him off right then and there! surprised at what Voldemort did to Harry right before he left the Ministry, but i'm glad that idiot Fudge finally saw Voldemort with his own eyes. but going back to Dumbledore...so we finally saw what he's capable of doing. yikes! don't want to get in his way! i felt awful too when he cried. didn't expect to see that, either :(

Umbridge: hem hem, that little *bleep*...wonder what the Centaurs really did to her :p

am very happy about the way Neville and Ginny turned out, though i really wished there was also more of them throughout the book. really happy to read about a more assertive and expressive Ginny, no more shy and hesitant Ginny. i'm kinda worried about Neville though...even though he's finally come around in this book, what Dumbledore said about the prophecy and about how Neville could've been the marked one really bother me. i have a bad feeling that something horrible will happen to Neville in the last book (that is, if he survives in the sixth book), but really though...talk about luck of the draw! this book series could have very well been "Neville Longbottom and..." ;)

so the prophecy says that Harry and Voldie fight each other to death. i get the feeling Dumbledore will have a go at Voldie sometime in the next two books. since Harry seems to be the only one that can kill Voldie, guess this means Dumbledore will be one of the casualties in the Second War :(

Arthur Weasley...sob! i got a little upset when i was reading through that part, too. and about the Order of the Phoenix...wish there was also more of it in the story. Tonks and Kingsley sound really cool, and has anyone ever wondered what exactly Molly Weasley does for the Order? and Percy! for awhile i thought he was under the Imperious Curse, but for him to completely disown his own family seemed extreme. felt really bad for Mrs. Weasley when Percy gave back the Weasley sweater :mad:

and last, but not the least...i want to join Dumbledore's Army!!!

hehehe...if you had detention in Hogwarts, which one of the two would you pick: Umbridge or Snape? :D

anyone else feel a little shortchanged, though? like something else was missing in the story of this book, or maybe that it felt a little rushed towards the end?

Elwen

06-22-2003, 09:32 PM

Interesting reactions.... :)

this thread is reallyt getting a good read,. with a lot of food for thought.

i have been thinking a bit more, and looking at a few passages which I didn't perhaps appreciate enough in the first rushed read-through....

Am I the only one who feels reminded of Orwell, and his Animal \farm in particular?
Since I think the message that JKR communicates in this book I like it. But the influence seems pretty clear.

While we are at influences: if we get Sirius or the Potters appear to Harry as ghosts any more I am going to scream. Enough Star Wars already!!!

While we are at things I don't like: Am I the only one who finds Filch tiring? He is so exaggerated, I find.... JKR does evil very well (Umbridge is really scary, I find) but Filch is just tedious.

I agree with some who have said above that the detention with Umbridge was intense. Spine-chilling, really. What a horrible thing to do.

And she released the Dementors on Harry! To be sure, even an overzealous ministry person would not go that far without good reason? She must have other motivees, it can't just be a ministry thing, I can't help thinking.

I loved the teachers' rebellion @Prof. Sprout gave Gryffindor 20 points when Harrry passed her a watering can' LOL! And I love that part of the Twins' swamp is here to stay because Professor flitwick left a bit of it. :D

The most scary and dark moment for me was the point where Umbridge is trying to use the cruciatus curse on Harry. This is connected with an earlier scene which I also found pretty impressive - where they are discussing what weapon Voldemort might be looking for - and Harry points out that with Avra kedavra and the cruciatus curse he has enough (until they think of what is plainly a 'weapon of mass destruction' :eek: ... did you realise that we never hear what this might be? - or have I missed something?)

Anyway, it made me remember that Harry is one of the few people around on the 'good side' (I suppose) who has been under the cruciatus curse already, and weho has seen the avra kedavra curse used on someone (and had it used on him once, and nearly used another time).

I need reminding of this fact now and then, I guess. But having Harry there with this woman who is supposed to be his headmaster considering to use this second-worst illegal torture curse on him, that was cruel.

I am still not sure what to make of it all. I would have liked to get more of the background story. We clearly haven't been told all (as rumours had it, a little implausibly).

Well, I suppose we can just hope that she hurries up a bit with the next two!

Elwen

Colli

06-22-2003, 09:41 PM

Oy, I'm answering post-by-post.

Cedric: I didn't sleep... just read. :D Hurry up so you can talk to us and speculate on book 6: Harry Potter and Snape's actually IN IT! (well, more :p)

Chiana: What makes you think that character is still alive? (i'm asking, not accusing :))
I know Rowling likes to play with our minds a little bit, but he's really dead. Lupin and Dumbledore know he's dead. Harry has to let himself accept he's dead. Nearly Headless Nick, who's dead himself, knows he's dead and won't choose to live the life of a ghost (which I think is a really interesting thing! That wizards can CHOOSE to stick around, none of that silly "unfinished business" stuff. Makes me wonder why Moaning Myrtle stuck around, unless it was to haunt Olive Hornby. ;) But I digress.) I think we're going to find out more about that portal thingy, but he's really died. Rowling said she was sobbing as she wrote it, she wouldn't be that sad if she was going to bring him back.

Swen!!!!!! Missed ya! :hug: Come down to southern Ohio, we have plenty. ;)

Susanna: Detention was CREEPY! The main focus of the storyline kinda bugged me too... but I think we'll find out more about Umbridge in book 6. She has to be more than a manic Ministry official.
The way she set Dementors on Harry... the way she was willing to use the Cruciatus Curse.
The Death:
I disagree that it was unnecessary. You don't know Rowling's motives... the famous "I cried when I wrote it" interview is proof that her motives seem deeper than making the story dark. It was already dark. When her husband saw her crying, he simply told her not to kill that character. But she said she had to, it was necessary to the plotline. So even if it's something we don't know or understand yet, we'll find out. But I miss him. :(

Mirdan: It seems like Nick became a ghost because he was afraid to die, yeah. Hmm.

I really kinda wish the centaurs would've ripped Umbridge to shreds. "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!"

About Molly, I was kinda under the impression that she was one of the people who took turns standing guard.

And I'd pick Snape. :D I'd pick Snape over anyone, actually. Even if he did hate me. Maybe he'd let me wash his hair and paint his nails and sing him silly songs...

More stuff about Snape:
I REALLY wish we would've found out more about Snape's history. She gave us NOTHIN' that we couldn't've figured out on our own!! We don't know 1) why he joined the death eaters in the first place (although we can assume it had to do with gaining power) 2) Why he returned to the good side BEFORE Voldie fell 3) How he came to be a Hogwarts teacher 4) Why he continually applies for the DADA job, even though he's the best darned Potions Master I've ever seen and 5) What exactly he's doing to spy on Voldemort. This is not a happy Colli.

You know Trelawney's first real prediction, and the Death Eater that heard fragments of it? I think it was Snape. :) Maybe. I just got a feeling.

isa

06-22-2003, 10:13 PM

Okay, so I received the book yesterday at 12:30pm and could not stop reading it until I finished (6:30am), this morning... Yup, I'm exhausted, but I just couldn't put the book down.

This is my first post, but seeing how I am the first among my friends to read it (I preordered it) anyways I'm busting at the seems to talk to someone about my theories..

The Prophecy. That took me by surprise indeed it did. I can't quite put my finger on it but "... at the Solstice will come a new... said the figure of an old bearded man..... "and none will come after..." this was said as one the glass orbs brook as they are all trying to flee the Death Eaters in Chapter 35, this leads me to believe that there is someone else aside from Harry.

I think Harry and Neville are going to play a big role in fighting Voldemore. Harry and Neville were both born at the end of July very close to the Solstice (if I'm not mistaken); did a bit research when the solstice is although there is a summer one and a winter one (does anyone know when Ron was born?)...

Anyways I truly feel there is someone else aside from Harry that will play a major role (like Harry) in getting rid of Voldemort.

And I have this sense of dread that Harry will die. [/S]

Colli

06-22-2003, 10:25 PM

Welcome, isa!!!!! :hug: Feel free to stick around for as long as you like, we're horrible prone to picking every detail apart, you should enjoy it. :D

Ron's birthday is March 1st... Hermione's is September 19th.

The Prophecy I'll need to reread before I can fully analyze it.. but I found the Neville thing really surprising.

About Harry dying... I haven't come to a decision yet whether I think he will or not; Jo doesn't seem afraid of killing him off though.

At this point, with the information we've just received, I can't see Harry losing in the final duel with Voldemort. Jo has imagination and writing skills that I can never dream of having, but I can't really see her ending a series with the bad guy still at large and no one having the power to defeat him.

Unless Neville DOES come to play a larger role in it. :)

Thanks for your thoughts!!!

Fleurdelacour

06-22-2003, 10:28 PM

Ron was born on March the First, a Piecis (i cant spell...) if I'm not mistaken!

Welcome by th way isa! :)

Swendula!!! :D :hug: We've missed you around here!!

Umbridge or Snape... Well... Snape, I really HATE writing out lines for one thing, but that quill... Jesus... :eek: that's just demented.. I hope they dont have that at college...

Sirius's death has now sunk in... I've not just reilised he's, dead... And I'm getting really teary now... I think I'll start a thread...

Colli

06-22-2003, 10:34 PM

LOL FleurD! I was just thinking about starting a thread myself... entitled "The Death of ______ (spoilers)" or something to that effect. ;) But you go ahead. :D

Fleurdelacour

06-22-2003, 10:47 PM

lol! thats creepy, well, you know what they say... great minds and all that!

Ooh Hermione was born in the 19th September?! I swear that's when I first registered back in 2000... Ooh that's creepy... lol!

Oh we'll be anylysing everything, but at least this time, we can compare what she's said pre-ootp and she did she trick us etc, and what she'll say post-ootp regarding book 6... hmmm, I'm looking forward to this now :)

Just hope we dont have to wait three years!

Peregrinning Took

06-23-2003, 12:54 AM

I have LOTS of comments about the book, but when I reread it I'll take notes. But two things stick out in my mind:

The Prophecy:

Dumbledore says that both Harry & Neville were contenders for the prophecy, and I know that it definitely IS Harry. But an interesting thought that I had--what if Voldemort had chosen Neville, not Harry? Would Neville survived the attack from Voldy (because since Voldy's kind of seeing him as his equal, he's MAKING Neville the one the prophecy refers to)? And so Neville grows up to be the heroic, Harry-type person, and Harry growns up to be a Neville-type person...

I know this is stretching it a bit far, but it's just an idea.

The Death:

I HATED JKR FOR THIS!!! While this didn't have the shock value of Cedric's death (we knew that someone was going to die, what with the spells flashing around...Someone was definitely doomed.) But this did affect me more, simply because I have dearly loved Sirius since the 3rd book. Cedric really didn't develope for me enough to really mourn him.

Right, well, I will be back after I finish rereading it (which will be sometime in the middle of July, unfortunately, because I'm saving it to reread on vacation.)

EDIT: Sorry, Fleur, I took your Gred and Forge thing in your sig and put something like it in mine. I'll take it out if you want me too!

mallorniphredil

06-23-2003, 10:24 AM

I've started re-reading the book again and have gathered some of my muddled thoughts: :D

I had to LOL at the scene where Hermione 'appealing' to Ron reminded Harry of Mrs. Weasley and Mr. Weasley, and Lupin's characteristics of a werewolf. :p

Harry, I realize, has to move on from being the good little hero and have his own angsty moments, but sometimes I just wanted to whack him gently on the head... :D

Can't see JKR killing off Harry in the end. It would be a shame to let all the prophecies and predictions go to waste.

Tami of Ithilien

06-23-2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Colli

The Death:
I disagree that it was unnecessary. You don't know Rowling's motives... the famous "I cried when I wrote it" interview is proof that her motives seem deeper than making the story dark. It was already dark. When her husband saw her crying, he simply told her not to kill that character. But she said she had to, it was necessary to the plotline. So even if it's something we don't know or understand yet, we'll find out. But I miss him. :(

[/s]

Agree with that - I'm sure JKR will come up with some reason why it's vital to the plot, but one reason could be that it would provide motivation for Harry to kill Voldemort. Remember when Harry tries to curse Bellatrix with the cruciatus curse? She tells him that to use an unforgiveable curse you need to really mean it : "You need to mean them.....you need to really want to cause pain... righteous anger won't hurt me for long". When Harry finally faces Voldemort and has to kill him, Sirius's death could be what enables him to do it. ok, he's angry about his parents' murder but he didn't really knowthem. Sirius is someone he's loved and lost.

Not got a lot to say at the moment, having read the book fairly quickly (am now taking a more leisurely stroll through it) as well as being rather busy right now, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Loved most of the new characters, and particularly liked the character development regarding Neville and Ginny. Also liked the bit with the Dursleys - although we knew that somehow they were essential to Harry's safety, as characters they were starting to become a bit superfluous to the the whole thing imo. Can see a bit of development there now, esp re. Petunia.

Hope the spoiler thingy works ok - it looks ok in preview, but I've never used them before! :)

katzpotter

06-23-2003, 07:38 PM

Right. I finished it early Sunday morning, and raved about it later. I was so mad at J.K. To me, the book seemed like a piece of tacky fanfiction. And I know that it isn't, it's the real canon, but... that's how it seemed.

I liked Mrs. Figg, she was one of the cool characters. Dung (Mundungus) was funny. As for Tonks... way cool. I loved the pink hair. Petunia... she surprised me, really. I'd never think that she'd care about Harry.

Kreacher was just an annoying little prick. Sirius, I loved him, in a purely platonic way, but I loved him nonetheless. I loved the little fight he and Mrs. Weasley had over Harry. I can't believe Sirius is related to Draco and Narcissa. This will be changing several fanfics.

Harry really did seem like the typical angsty teenager. I really do feel bad for him, though. As for Hermione and Ron, they seemed the typical caring teenage friends.

Umbridge... I'll just say that I called her the worst names I could think of and threw my teddy in anger at her. I got really freaked when she almost got Sirius. Stupid Ministry.

As for Snape, I felt really bad during his worst memory. Then I got mad at him for throwing poor Harry around. And not teaching him Occlumency.

Fred and George... gosh, I love them! They are so spiffy! :notworthy :notworthy Those pranks they pulled were the highlight of the book.

The D.A. was really cool, and I'm glad that Harry went on with it. :notworthy Praise Dobby!

The teachers... loved McGonagall and Sprout. Everyone hated Umbridge and her stupid plot for power (besides Draco and the rest of that Slytherin lot), and everyone kind of wanted to rebel.

When Sirius died, I cried for ten minutes straight. Ever since he died, I've fumed at J.K. I have kicked so many things in anger.... I really feel bad for Harry. He's lost both parents and the closest thing to a parent he might ever have.

The prophecy seemed unreal... really kind of tacky....

Anyways, got really mad at Dumbledore for not telling Harry. But will not go into that.

Everyone has made some excellent points, and Elwen, in particular: the weapon. I think that perhaps Harry was right. Perhaps he IS the weapon. I mean, with the prophecy and everything, it just makes me think that.

It really was okay, but I just don't know how life--in both the books and in fanfiction--will go on after his death.

Hail the Lost Marauder!

Colli

06-23-2003, 08:28 PM

It's really not Rowling's fault that some fan fiction stories are messed up... besides, which is more important? Fan fiction or the real thing?

It's not her fault either that some fan fiction authors guessed wrong and got the stories messed up.

Life goes on. :)

(edit)

OOOOH the Sorting Hat's song!
"For were there such friends anywhere as Slytherin and Gryffindor?"
How many people were completely caught off guard by that?

I also thought it was interesting that
it wasn't just Slytherin's desire to only accept pure bloods that caused him to leave and the school to remain divided, but that "The Houses ... turned upon each other and, divided, sought to rule ... what with dueling and with fighting and the clash of friend on friend"

I was always under the impression that Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw got on fine and Slytherin was the troublemaker, but that doesn't really seem the case...

lithorose

06-23-2003, 10:11 PM

The sorting hat did take me off guard. Before I just skimmed lightly over it, as poetry usually bores me. But it was really interesting! I wonder if the sorting actually means much, though. I mean, how does it get the students divided equally (or nearly so) every year? And it seems to place them where they want if that's what they want, like how Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw and Neville in Hufflepuff. And some of the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs would make just as good Gryffindors as the Gryffindors do.

Well, have finished as of 1 pm today. Wasn't planning to take it so fast but I figured the secret would leak out if I didn't. How do you guys manage to read so fast? Must need new glasses or something.

Wow! Don't know where to start, but feel like I could write pages! But also don't feel like writing pages.:(

I don't think the book is 'fat'. I can't think of anything I would throw out. But I do think it would have been good to split it into two books, even if it had cliff-hangers. Publish it serially or something. I don't know how JK plans to fit a whole war into two books, and only covering two year's time!

I cried the whole way through the book, so when Sirius finally died it didn't wasn't as bad as it could have been. Basically, by the first few pages of the book I'd narrowed it down to two main possibilities. Hagrid or Sirius. I wanted it to be Hagrid, even though I like him, because Sirius was #1 on my DON'T KILL list. But Hagrid's death wouldn't have have had the impact of Sirius's. Not on Harry, and certainly not on the readers. I don't think his death was pointless at all, though it made me cry all night and now I have a headache. It seemed like Sirius had unfinished business, and his role wasn't finished in life whereas Hagrid's more or less was. But death is usually like that.

And I think Harry now has a major defense against Voldemort. If he hadn't died, I don't think Harry would have been able to get Voldemort out of his head, and I think that will become important in later books.

I don't think Sirius is coming back. I don't think it's realistic, as tough as it is.

Course, I also thought every other character was gonna die the minute something happened to them. I especially thought Hermione had died when that purple thing went through her, even though JK said she wasn't gonna die.

And though I honestly hoped it would be Hagrid, his late entrance in the books made me realize how much a part he was of making Hogwart's feel like Hogwart's.

ChianaWeasley

06-23-2003, 10:13 PM

Fan fiction or the real thing?

Thats a good question really...

Im so spoiled by the fanfictions, when I read the book I liked it ...but yet I wanted the fanfiction Im used to reading. And her writing style has changed slightly so that made a differance as well.

Had to get my fill of good snoggin' R/Hr fanfic last night
:D
:rolleyes:

Mirdan

06-23-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Colli
OOOOH the Sorting Hat's song!
"For were there such friends anywhere as Slytherin and Gryffindor?"
How many people were completely caught off guard by that?

I also thought it was interesting that
it wasn't just Slytherin's desire to only accept pure bloods that caused him to leave and the school to remain divided, but that "The Houses ... turned upon each other and, divided, sought to rule ... what with dueling and with fighting and the clash of friend on friend"

I was always under the impression that Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw got on fine and Slytherin was the troublemaker, but that doesn't really seem the case...
yeah, that and the scene with Snape's memory in the Pensieve! i didn't see any of those coming at all. but the thing is, what exactly did the Sorting Hat mean by the Houses being at odds with one another? it would seem to me that each of the Houses had different opinions when it comes to choosing their pupils. so i suppose it wasn't just Slytherin who disagreed with the policy, but all the rest of the Houses!

ElfTBD

06-24-2003, 12:25 AM

Ok...just finished about an hour ago, and all I can say right this second is WOW! I think I'm going to have to read it again just to get everything straight...

let me tell you, I'm glad this thread is here...I'm going to go bonkers for a few days since no one else I know has finished the book yet (ack!) and I've been forbidden to talk about it at home until everyone's caught up...so...

One big thing:

as much as the death was really sad, what really got me all teary eyed was the, er, conversation between Harry and Dumbledore after...it shows a side of Dumbledore that Harry really needed to see...I really think that Dumbledore is as much Harry's surrogate father as Sirius...

I also loved Luna...very cool...and the whole veil thing just tickled the pagan in me....:)

And where did Ron and Hermione kiss? Did I miss something, or was it someone's fleeting thought? I am kind of glad Harry gave up on Cho though....

Arrgghh...so much tot hink about, and no one in the house is caught up yet...ack!:eek:

Colli

06-24-2003, 12:29 AM

Man, I LOVED Dumbledore's convo with Harry at the end. That single tear...

I also liked where Harry said that he wasn't bothered by Cho's having another boyfriend.. because that seemed like a different part of his life. That was very cool, and very true. It's like Neo in the Matrix: once he found out that he was The One, his former life became nothing to him. Harry's got this burden on him, and there will still be romance, and there will still be fun, but he's matured a lot.

ElfTBD

06-24-2003, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by Colli
Man, I LOVED Dumbledore's convo with Harry at the end. That single tear...

Oh, man, I nearly lost it at that part, but as I said, I'm banned from giving *anything* away at my house till everyone catches up, so I had to suck it up....ack!

I also liked where Harry said that he wasn't bothered by Cho's having another boyfriend.. because that seemed like a different part of his life. That was very cool, and very true. It's like Neo in the Matrix: once he found out that he was The One, his former life became nothing to him. Harry's got this burden on him, and there will still be romance, and there will still be fun, but he's matured a lot.

YES!!!!!!!!! Exactly!!!! Thanks for putting that into words for me Colli....I was thinking when I put the book down that I had to read it again, just like I had to watch Reloaded again...

I don't know about the rest of you, but personally, I thought OoTP was pretty intense...I mean, really it didn't stop once you got past the first few pages....

phew...now I'm going to go catch up on the sleep I missed last night...;)

Colli

06-24-2003, 01:11 AM

Not a problem. :D I know how awful it is when you can't express something in words. :)

OotP *was* really intense, but not as intense as GoF, I don't think. GoF, every time I read it I get an upset stomach, literally, I'm just so nervous for them all. OotP, well, in my opinion isn't as dangerous as GoF was. Harry seemed in much more peril in GoF, and that made OotP less intense for me. As was said before, Umbridge seemed like the main antagonist in this one, and she was plain creepy, but I never really thought of her as a danger.

I'll have to read it again and see what I think.. because the first time I was really just driven to find out who dies, and to get the plot.

Still mad about the lack of info on Severus...

Pilgrim Grey

06-24-2003, 04:21 AM

I've just finished reading it (me and me mam :D had to take it in turns to read) and I don't really know what to think about it. I really liked the Umbridge parts, they seemed VERY true to life to me, and her "hem, hem"s to McGonnagal (sp?) were classic. I also really liked the changes in the twins and Phrcy. Percy's change was hinted at at the end of GOF, but I never thought he'd denounce his family. The twins were also brilliant, but I want to know what Mrs Wealey thought about their leaving and setting up the joke shop. I also want to know what's going to happen with their new-found wealth. I also really liked the darker parts of the book, especially St Mungo's. That was the best part of the book for me - with the lolly-wrapper and Lockhart's joined-up writing (go I hate him) - because that's what happens to people, and JKR didn't try to soften it.

Now, onto the Death:
When I read it, I really couldn't understand why JKR said she cried. It wasn't particularly sad, and the full effects of it weren't felt at all IMO (and I'm pissed off that Harry didn't realise what the mirror was REALLY for). I also want to know what was behind the veil, and why it killed Sirius. I get that it was meant to be a link between life and death (so the dead can communicate with us) but why would that kill anyone who went through the veil, and why was Harry drawn to it?
I also didn't like that Sirius hadn't really completed his "character arc" when he died - he was still thought of as a mass-murderer by pretty much all of the wizard population, and he hadn't squared things away with Harry about his and his father's childhood. This lack of completion, IMO, should have been enough to make Sirius want to come back as a ghost (although Nick kinda implies that you have to be too afraid of death and not want to leave the real world to become one) and I have to admit that I thought, reading the last chapter, (Which is kinda mistitled IMO - The Second War Begins? Doesn't really relate to what happens in the chapter) that Sirius would come back in ghost-form as the DADA teacher for next year (which will probably be in three years time ;))

And doesn't it say in POA that Fred and George scraped a handful of OWLs each? So shouldn't the fifth-years have gotten their OWL results at the end of the year? And shouldn't Harry have noticed the Thestrals at the end of Fourth year when they were going down to the train, because the carriages are used to ferry people down to the train (it says so in GOF) and it's not something you could really overlook.

Elwen

06-24-2003, 07:51 AM

First:
as long as we have to use spoiler boxes...

LITHOROSE, could you please use some in your post as well?!

I don't like spoiler boxes but since this is an agreement we should all stick to it, I think. :) Thanks.

Well, there are still more things I have to think about here.

1) What is it that actually kills Sirius? Is it the curse that hits him or is it really that you die once you walk through that arch? To be sure, we will need more on this.

Is this connected to the Thestrals? It seems that only Harry and Luna could hear the voices, if I remember correctly.

will there be a connection to Voldemort's fear of death? Now that was an interesting bit of conversation between Dumbledore and Voldemort (note that D. calls V. 'Tom' :D ) - about deat not being the worst thing - and Voldemort doesn't get it. Very interesting.

Does the name 'Death Eaters' have anything to do with this?

2) The unforgivable curses.
Am I right in thinking that using those curses can get you a sentence in Azkaban? I have been saying how shocked I was about Harry being subjected to the cruciatus curse. But somehow I missed (!!) the shocking fact that he actually tried to use it himself and that it nearly worked. Now most curses, jinxes, spells and charms you have to practice hard. How come that Harry manages to produce a cruciatus curse that is technically right (even if lack of 'attitude' makes it a bit ineffective)?

Isn't it absolutely shocking how much these kids know about this? It is like teaching pupils in a school how to torture and kill people. :eek:

Just how much evil will Harry have to adopt himself in order to get through this? (one might think of Barty Crouch senior who clearly had the best intentions but committed some pretty serious evil actions in the name of a good cause).
How will this affect Harry? Once I realised this I found Dumbledore's worries and his tear more moving than it was already.

It is quite heart-wrenching to see anyone having to go down that route :eek:

3) Still on Harry - yes he is angry because he is stuck at Privet Drive in the beginning - but revisiting the end of GoF I was rather shocked how they could just send him off without giving him much chance to deal with what happened to him. And surely, what happened is traumatic in the worst way. I know that this is fiction, but it is supposed to be set in our world. Wizards may have a few advantages over Muggles but they sure have no idea abvout psychology! :D
Poor Harry. It is an absolute miracle that he isn't totally screwed up!!

4) in the end we hear that the Dementors have changed sides and so on - but so far there is no real effect of that... it seems weird that Voldemort doesn't strike now that he knows he can't get the prophecy....

I am very curious how the Ministry is going to handle this - there nearly has to be a split within the Minsitry: some people must have been on Voldemort's side, even if they weren't Death Eaters (cf. Umbridge).
I am very curious to see what path Percy is going to take.

5) The wizarding world is getting stranger and stranger.... It is so small and a certain group all seem to know each other and so on: a bit ike a small village. It is really hard to get into that (especially for outsiders like Hermione, of course, and even worse for Harry because the insiders know him and he doesn't know anything about that world). All that insider knowledge. Very scary. But I wonder. How many wizards are there, actually? There aren't that many schools - and Hogwarts has perhaps 60-80 pupils annually.... still, that's quite a few. So what's up with the few wizard families that are all related (including the surprising idea that some of the poshest families are related to the Weasleys!!).

Interesting ....

Elwen

Colli

06-24-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Elwen
Is this connected to the Thestrals? It seems that only Harry and Luna could hear the voices, if I remember correctly.
Maybe you only hear voices on the other side if there's someone there to talk to you... so yeah, it would be a thestral-type thing. If that were true. :)

2) The unforgivable curses.
Yeah, using any one of them can land you in Azkaban for life. It really freaked me out that Harry wanted to use one, he's really going to need to learn how to control his anger or he's going to get into a lot of trouble. Probably another plan of Voldemort's...

4) in the end we hear that the Dementors have changed sides and so on - but so far there is no real effect of that... it seems weird that Voldemort doesn't strike now that he knows he can't get the prophecy....
:) It takes time to plan and come up with strategy, why would he attack again immediately? From what we've seen of him in TSS, CoS, GoF, and OotP, he doesn't seem to mind waiting to achieve his ends.

How many wizards are there, actually?
Take into account the thousands and thousands (and thousands) of people that went to watch the Quidditch World Cup, and then add on whatever percent of the wizarding world a) wouldn't care or b) couldn't afford it. ;-)

You also have to take into account that there are wizards and witches in America, Africa, etc.

Elwen

06-24-2003, 11:34 AM

Colli, thanks for your thoughts... Always great to talk to a true expert (I am not, you see)... :)

Originally posted by Colli
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Elwen

Is this connected to the Thestrals? It seems that only Harry and Luna could hear the voices, if I remember correctly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe you only hear voices on the other side if there's someone there to talk to you... so yeah, it would be a thestral-type thing. If that were true.

That is a very interesting take on this. Gosh - I am sure whe haven't seen the last of that room in the Minisitry, don#t nyou think?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) The unforgivable curses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, using any one of them can land you in Azkaban for life. It really freaked me out that Harry wanted to use one, he's really going to need to learn how to control his anger or he's going to get into a lot of trouble. Probably another plan of Voldemort's...

Yeah, I had not thought of that! That could be the case. Especially, now that I think of it, because they were actually taught all these curses by the false Moody (actually Crouch jr.) ... although Dumbledore requested it. So what's up with that??

There is an interesting theme here, in addition to many others in the books. How well do you have to know evil to fight it - and how far should you keep (be kept) off it?
(think of the different attitude to private ownership of guns in different countries, for example).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) in the end we hear that the Dementors have changed sides and so on - but so far there is no real effect of that... it seems weird that Voldemort doesn't strike now that he knows he can't get the prophecy....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It takes time to plan and come up with strategy, why would he attack again immediately? From what we've seen of him in TSS, CoS, GoF, and OotP, he doesn't seem to mind waiting to achieve his ends.

Hmmmmm...
I am not sure... at that point he had to wait to get an opportunity to get his body back, or however we might want to put this. But now?!

But I take your point. I wonder whether Harry is going to try and watch the muggle news again over summer ... and whether he'll see something this time. How would the Dursleys react? To be sure, if Voldemort starts going for Muggles the Dursleys should start to appreciate having a wizard in the family a bit more than before? I am curious about that!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many wizards are there, actually?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take into account the thousands and thousands (and thousands) of people that went to watch the Quidditch World Cup, and then add on whatever percent of the wizarding world a) wouldn't care or b) couldn't afford it. ;-)

You also have to take into account that there are wizards and witches in America, Africa, etc.

That's what I thought. There must, therefore, be quite a few wizards who aren't part of that apparently tightly-knit community where everyone knows everyone else! But we don't get to see much of this world.

Of course, Hogwarts is some sort of hub for the wizarding community in England, so that accounts for many people knowing each other. Still, the whole thing doesn't quite add up, in a way.

I *love* to speculate. :D Does it show? :)

Elwen

ElfTBD

06-24-2003, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Elwen
But I take your point. I wonder whether Harry is going to try and watch the muggle news again over summer ... and whether he'll see something this time. How would the Dursleys react? To be sure, if Voldemort starts going for Muggles the Dursleys should start to appreciate having a wizard in the family a bit more than before? I am curious about that!

Well, I'm sure he'll be able to watch news and stuff given what Moody and Co. tell the Dursleys...speaking of that, does anyone think that they'll behave?? Personally, I don't know about Vernon, but I bet Petunia will....

Elwen

06-24-2003, 11:52 AM

I am *so* curious to find out more about Petunia. She must know quite a bit about the wizarding world, I would guess! I am just thinking about the sort of news that Hermione's parents get (she gets the Daily Prophet at home, and she sends owls, so her parents have to know how to deal with owl post!).

Also - isn't it a bit surprising that Lily should have talked of Dementors while she was still at home? Azkaban isn't exactly a topic of conversation even in the wizarding world (not without good reason anyway).

So what's up there?

Perhaps I am just overreacting! I am just shocked that i am suddenly interested in the Dursleys of all people! :D

Elwen

Colli

06-24-2003, 01:29 PM

:) No one I know personally is finished. I'm so glad you guys are here! :hug: ;)

Elwen.. I'm hardly an expert! :D

It's interesting that you brought up Moody (Crouch Jr) teaching them the Unforgivable curses.. I hadn't actually made that connection. Moody SAID that Dumbledore had requested it, but how do we know that "Moody" didn't advise Dumbledore to have the curses taught? It's interesting how it took a year and a half and a new book for me to notice that. :D Voldemort, Voldemort, Voldemort. Something makes me think that teaching the kids what the curses "look like" wasn't just Dumbly-door's idea.

With Voldie on the loose, it's going to be interesting to see the Restriction for Underage Wizardry staying in effect.
I know *I* wouldn't want to be told "You can't use magic" if he were running around free with a pack of Dementors and Death Eaters (as soon as they get released/escape from Azkaban, since there's no one to guard them!).

Also, I mentioned this in my very first post in this thread, but I don't think anyone commented on it. And I think it's a significant point. :)

Peter Pettigrew: Where was he? The fact that he was only mentioned in discussions about MWPP (Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs), and is never mentioned in reference to the Death Eaters and Voldemort I find VERY suspicious. How'd he manage to escape an 860 page book? Is Voldemort just ignoring him now that he has the rest of his henchmen back?

(edit) Aha!
I KNEW I saw the surname "Evans" somewhere. In chapter one, Harry says that he knew Dudley had beaten up a kid named Mark Evans 2 weeks ago.

It hardly seems a coincidence that his last name is Evans... do you think he's related to them all? Rowling wouldn't randomly pick a last name to use for a minor character that was also the maiden name of Petunia and Lily, would she?

Elwen

06-24-2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Colli
:) No one I know personally is finished. I'm so glad you guys are here! :hug: ;)

Elwen.. I'm hardly an expert! :D

Well, compared to me you are!

It's interesting that you brought up Moody (Crouch Jr) teaching them the Unforgivable curses.. I hadn't actually made that connection. Moody SAID that Dumbledore had requested it, but how do we know that "Moody" didn't advise Dumbledore to have the curses taught? It's interesting how it took a year and a half and a new book for me to notice that. :D Voldemort, Voldemort, Voldemort. Something makes me think that teaching the kids what the curses "look like" wasn't just Dumbly-door's idea.

I didn't remember that it was actually Crouch (as Moody) who tells them this. Good call!
So yes, it might be Voldemort behind all this.

Scary thought.

I certainly felt uncomfortable when I saw just how familiar Harry gets with the unforgivable curses :eek: ... I mean, if I had been subjected to all of them (well, Avra kedavra as near misses) as often as Harry I would perhaps react like this, too. But the temptation and the ability to do so came from Crouch (<Voldemort?). Interesting and scary.

Well, that connection between Voldemort and Harry might be taken further!

With Voldie on the loose, it's going to be interesting to see the Restriction for Underage Wizardry staying in effect.
I know *I* wouldn't want to be told "You can't use magic" if he were running around free with a pack of Dementors and Death Eaters (as soon as they get released/escape from Azkaban, since there's no one to guard them!).

Well, there is already an exception for the case of danger so that should be OK? But we haven#t yet seen what way the Ministry is going to turn! :eek:

Also, I mentioned this in my very first post in this thread, but I don't think anyone commented on it. And I think it's a significant point. :)

Peter Pettigrew: Where was he? The fact that he was only mentioned in discussions about MWPP (Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs), and is never mentioned in reference to the Death Eaters and Voldemort I find VERY suspicious. How'd he manage to escape an 860 page book? Is Voldemort just ignoring him now that he has the rest of his henchmen back?

Interesting. I guess your last quote might be right. Voldemort treated Pettigrew with utmost contempt in GoF - because he thought that his people in Azkaban were his really loyal followers. I am surprised that he is still treating Malfoy and the others who got away with some respect - weren't they also traitors (in V's eyes) so they could stay out of Azkaban?

Anyway - I am sure we'll hear about Pettigrew and his fate! :eek:

(edit) Aha!
I KNEW I saw the surname "Evans" somewhere. In chapter one, Harry says that he knew Dudley had beaten up a kid named Mark Evans 2 weeks ago.

It hardly seems a coincidence that his last name is Evans... do you think he's related to them all? Rowling wouldn't randomly pick a last name to use for a minor character that was also the maiden name of Petunia and Lily, would she?

Hmmmmm... I hope this is right. The name appears in Snapes' worst memory, I think!
Interesting 'coincidence'.... well... wouldn't Dursley have said something if it had been a cousin or something? Weird. Of course, Evans isn't exactly a rare name!

Further speculation...

I wonder whether Harry is going to make progress in occlumency and legillimency(sp?) - nsurely that is a crucial skill? A lot could become of this. Or nothing, of course!

If I understand the book rightly, though, the connection (and Voldemort's way into Harry's brain) is not yet blocked! - so I actually don't quite undertstand why Dumbledore dares to talk to Harry so openly as he does in the penultimate chapter? Or have I missed something?

Elwen

ChianaWeasley

06-24-2003, 02:52 PM

Gah, its very hard to keep up with all of these spoiler boxes :(
But i know we have to use them so sticks chin up in the air Ishall do my best!!

After reading the book I've had these mini realizations. For one last night I realized that when the pseudo Moody used the Crustacious curse on Neville he was doing in revenge of the dark lord! Because Neville's parents and all, he was doing it for the Lestrange party who loyally awaited the dark lords arrival in Azkaban. How I HATE that women!!!

Mirdan

06-24-2003, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Pilgrim Grey
Percy's change was hinted at at the end of GOF, but I never thought he'd denounce his family.
i forget which book it was mentioned, but Ron did say that he wasn't entirely sure himself if Percy would "pull a Crouch" on any of the Weasleys. interesting to see that Percy in OotP is just about ready to take that path...guess what Ron said about Percy's ambitiousness should've been a foreshadowing to the path that Percy took in OotP :(

Now, onto the Death:
When I read it, I really couldn't understand why JKR said she cried. It wasn't particularly sad, and the full effects of it weren't felt at all IMO (and I'm pissed off that Harry didn't realise what the mirror was REALLY for). I also want to know what was behind the veil, and why it killed Sirius.

I get that it was meant to be a link between life and death (so the dead can communicate with us) but why would that kill anyone who went through the veil, and why was Harry drawn to it?
i think the lack of any corporeal evidence regarding Sirius's death is what really puzzles me. where did it go?! behind the veil, yeah, but then, what lies behind that veil? and what kind of spell did Bellatrix hit Sirius with? i have always had the impression that the only killing spell that would really do the trick would be the Avada Kedavra spell, and if so, then Sirius must've just been given a nasty hex. no green light or anything. or maybe there are other ways to kill wizards and witches, other spells that are lethal enough to finish them off. i wish JKR did say what it was that got Sirius. would've helped with the "closure" of his death.

Originally posted by Elwen
I wonder whether Harry is going to try and watch the muggle news again over summer ... and whether he'll see something this time. How would the Dursleys react? To be sure, if Voldemort starts going for Muggles the Dursleys should start to appreciate having a wizard in the family a bit more than before? I am curious about that!i wonder if Harry will finally be allowed to use Dudley's computer to surf the Internet! ;) if Voldemort starts to terrorize Muggles, surely Vernon would be a little more appreciative of Harry. he might still regard Harry as a "freak," but for his sake, Vernon might be a little grateful of Harry. but i do wonder at the extent of Petunia's knowledge regarding the wizarding world. she's played witness to a similar situation before (supposing that Voldemort's reign of terror was in effect during Lily's time in Hogwarts), and her reaction after Dumbledore's Howler was very interesting. she seemed very resolute, even business-like. speaking of which, what did the Dmbledore mean by the message? "Remember my last, Petunia!" or something to that effect. what does that mean?

i've been thinking about wizard populations too...there aren't any Blacks left, and there's aren't any living members in the Couch family either. Susan Bones' family was also targeted by the Death Eaters, the McKinnons were also attacked, and there's also the Potters who apparently have all been killed. there are many other wizarding families that have been wiped out, thanks to Voldemort and his Death Eaters, but that incident is only relative in Britain's wizarding world. there's still the rest of the world to consider, and someone also mentioned the other wizarding populations, as seen in the Quidditch Cup. think you that these witches and wizards will show up in the last two books? would make sense though, especially since everyone knows about the Dark Lord. it'd be like the wizarding world's version of a world war, hence the Second War.

Colli

06-24-2003, 04:12 PM

I think in an interview one time, Rowling was asked if we'd see much of witches and wizards in America, and she said "No, Voldemort's concentrating on dominating Europe right now" or something like that. Actually, let me find you a direct quote.

Q: How does the Dark Lord affect American wizards and witches?
A: He affects everyone, but his plan is European domination first.

And then there was this:
Q: Will we ever see Harry in America?
A: Unlikely. The battleground is Britain at the moment. I got asked the other day, "Given the huge success of your books in America, are you going to be introducing American characters?" And I thought, you're an idiot. I am not about to throw away 10 years' meticulous planning in the hope that I will buck up to a few more readers. American kids have no need to see a token American character. This is another instance of people grossly underestimating children.

Bravo! :D

Athelas

06-24-2003, 05:01 PM

For those of you in the US, I thought they let a few more Britishisms (I just made up that word:D ) in with this book, especially compared to Book 1.

Colli- I definitely think Evans is not a name you pick randomly, but what will it mean? Time to speculate!

And do we KNOW that Petunia has no powers? Could she have just made a choice not to go into that world?

Colli

06-24-2003, 05:14 PM

Athelas, I definitely agree! (on both points)

Were the editors previously "translating" the word "mate" into "friend" or "pal" or something? Because I really don't remember seeing it in the first 4 books, and it was really used a lot this time. I can't remember any others off the top of my head, but I know there were more. There was once instance I saw a "Merry Christmas".. but then "Happy Christmas" was used in almost the same paragraph. :confused: Do Britains exclusively use "Happy" or do you all use both?

Ahh.. Petunia, what a huge mystery. I don't have any speculation for the time being. ;)

But onto one seriously overlooked Potions Master! It seems I haven't given him my undivided attention. :D
When Umbridge was going to sit in on his class, I knew we were in for a treat. She asked him about the DADA job, and obviously hit a nerve.

"And you have applied regularly for the DADA post since you first joined the school, I believe?" (FOURTEEN years!)

"Yes," said Snape quietly, barely moving his lips. He looked very angry.
Unfortunately, that messes up a lot of assumptions I had made. I had always assumed that Snape was perfectly happy teaching Potions, and that the DADA thing was just a rumor circulated by students.

But then why would he apply for it year after year? Especially when he's such an awesome Potions Master, and seems to really love his job? And why wouldn't Dumbledore appoint him? Because it's "cursed"? ;)

Mirdan

06-24-2003, 05:23 PM

so no American wizards, eh? no problem :D since Voldemort's out to conquer Europe first, i suppose the people from Beauxbatons and Durmstrang would either join the resistance or join the agressor?

Originally posted by Athelas
And do we KNOW that Petunia has no powers? Could she have just made a choice not to go into that world? wouldn't that then imply that the Evans were a wizarding family? (and that Petunia's a Squib by choice! :p) by the way, what did happen to Lily and Petunia's parents? i can't remember reading anything about them anywhere.

Athelas

06-24-2003, 05:31 PM

Britishisms:
Please- could someone tell me exactly what "mickey" means? Also,"git", although I think I've figured it out 'from the context' as my old Eng. teacher would say.

ChianaWeasley

06-24-2003, 06:09 PM

How very interesting....Petunia a squib....
jealousy can be a strong catalyst towards her hate of Harry but, I would never have geussed she would heed Dumbledore's reminder in the Howler like she did.

My sister Din just finished the part where the twins make their leave, absolutley priceless!!! The twins were spectacular in OoTP, they made me laugh out loud so many times
:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy
that much ^ is owed to them I think
so many times when I've hated or argued with a teacher I wanted to just leave like they did :D

lithorose

06-24-2003, 07:21 PM

Elwen: Sorry! I thought we were going no-boxes! Are we just coding MAJOR spoilers?

I don't think the Evans kid is related. Otherwise Petunia wouldn't be the last one, right?

alqua

06-24-2003, 08:20 PM

I wonder if I'm being paranoid or if I have too wild an imagination, but I had the funniest feeling when Harry and co were in the Hog's Head that the barman might be Dumbledore's brother Aberforth. I'm probably crazy, but something in the description just brought the idea into my mind:

"He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long grey hair and beard. he was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry."

Elwen

06-24-2003, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Athelas
Britishisms:
Please- could someone tell me exactly what "mickey" means? Also,"git", although I think I've figured it out 'from the context' as my old Eng. teacher would say.

mickey? this is the short form of Michael, as everywhere else. I can't remember - is the phrase 'taking the mickey' used? that means pullimng someone's leg, having someone on....

and git - well. I am sure you get the drift. I am not sure whether it has an original rude meaning, but it is a mild(ish) swearword for people. A bit like 'idiot' - but less formal.

Lithorose,

I am sorry... I was originally intending to have this thread without spoiler boxes (hence the warning in the title) but then everyone was so keen on them. I'll drop them as soon as we can. Is Amberion ever around here? I'd like to have a moderator's imput here.

Or perhaps people here could tell me what they think. I'd like to drop spoiler boxes!!

alqua, I hadn't thought of Aberforth - but both Dumbledore and Moody make odd comments about him - so what's up there? Well spotted, I wouldn't have thought of him any more...

And can one be a squib by choice? I am not so sure (given what happened to Harry when Hagrid fetched him to Hogwarts! He couldn't help doing magic, in a way....

Elwen

Colli

06-24-2003, 09:33 PM

Alqua, good eyes!!! I'll have to go back and reread that. :)

ChianaWeasley

06-24-2003, 09:44 PM

Hey shes right! Perhaps it is Dumbledore's father...scratches chin

Maybe the hogs head sign is spelled wrong. Remember Aberforth couldn't read...or well at least Albus didn't think he could

ElfTBD

06-24-2003, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by Athelas
And do we KNOW that Petunia has no powers? Could she have just made a choice not to go into that world?

You know, I thought that too...or maybe she's a Squib? We don't really know much about Harry's Grandparents on either side, do we?

celendil

06-24-2003, 11:14 PM

all rite...wanna get my two cents worth in here...

I LOVE GINNY!! in CoS, you get this feeling that she is a really timid girl...in love with harry, and then later she is this poor victim of voldie...in OotP, you learn that she can lie w/ a straight face and act, well...like Fred and George. she is sooo cool!! and, about the propecy, does ne one remember that in PoA, Dumbledore is talking to Harry about Prof. Trewlany and says "that brings her total true predictions up to two"...or something to that effect. obviously this was the first one...
and i also loved Fred and George (or Gred and Forge)!! and how Flitwick left a piece of the swamp under the window...:rotfl:

Athelas

06-24-2003, 11:50 PM

Thanks for the translations, Elwen, and yes, I believe it was 'taking the mickey'. Just love learning foreign languages;)

alqua--we know JKR doesn't throw those things in and have them mean nothing--I think you could be right!

susanna

06-25-2003, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by celendil
and, about the propecy, does ne one remember that in PoA, Dumbledore is talking to Harry about Prof. Trewlany and says "that brings her total true predictions up to two"...or something to that effect. obviously this was the first one...
I remember, but I was too lazy to look it up!

I am for abandoning spoiler boxes. It says spoilers at the beginning of the thread, and it's so tiring to read them.

Elwen

06-25-2003, 04:25 AM

Actually, Susanna, you just need to hit control-A and the whole page gets selected. That way you can read spoiler boxes with zero effort. But I don't like them, either.

I like the little snippet about Trelawney's second prediction. That's pretty cool.... I didn't remember that :)

And does this mean that she was really just kept on because of her (originally one) prediction? and the pupils were put through all the crap because of this? At times I do think that Dumbledore is a little irresponsible! Mind you, I don't think I'd like to be taught by Firenze, either :rolleyes:

Elwen

susanna

06-25-2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Elwen
Actually, Susanna, you just need to hit control-A and the whole page gets selected. That way you can read spoiler boxes with zero effort. But I don't like them, either.
Thanks. I always got problems with scrolling.

Originally posted by Elwen

And does this mean that she was really just kept on because of her (originally one) prediction? and the pupils were put through all the crap because of this? At times I do think that Dumbledore is a little irresponsible! Mind you, I don't think I'd like to be taught by Firenze, either :rolleyes:
On the other hand side: Divination is voluntary. And he does not believe in it at all.

Though this is no reason not to get a good divination teacher.

Elwen

06-25-2003, 07:56 AM

I think that Hermione still made the best choice concerning Divination. I like the scene in HP 3 (is it?) when she just storms out.

Great stuff! :) I couldn't believe that I'd ever actually *like* Trelawney, but in HP 5 she sort of grows on you, I think.

Susanna - problems with scrolling? Someone else mentioned this, too. What is the problem? Because I don't have it.... Mind you, I tend to scroll with the cursor-down or page-down keys because my computer goes all funny when I try to scroll with my touchpad... :rolleyes:

I hope we can get rid of the spoiler boxes soon. I hate them!!

Elwen

susanna

06-25-2003, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by Elwen

Susanna - problems with scrolling? Someone else mentioned this, too. What is the problem? Because I don't have it.... Mind you, I tend to scroll with the cursor-down or page-down keys because my computer goes all funny when I try to scroll with my touchpad... :rolleyes:

That's the problem. Normally I use the scrollhbar on the right side, and if I accidentally click on the area next to the scrollbar, the box is not highlighted any more. So I can work with big spoiler boxes, when I am careful.

But I don't like them, especially not the long ones.

Amberion

06-25-2003, 10:57 AM

I am here at least once and usually twice a day

As there does not seem to be any objections, we can do away with spoiler boxes.

I was just waiting to see if anyone wanted to keep them

Colli

06-25-2003, 11:23 AM

Yay! :clap:

Ah, Umbridge. She could make anyone grow on you. ;)

Lady Haleth

06-25-2003, 11:25 AM

First time posting over here. ( :wave: to everyone from COE.) I read OotP in 4 days, only putting it down when RL interrupted. My opinion is that it is the best so far, I liked it even better than book 3, which had been my favorite.

Spoiler boxes or no? Well, maybe just regarding The Death.

Some thoughts:
Sirius's death saddened me, since he was the only adult quasi-family member Harry had left. But it seems to me that this is why he died. Jo wants Harry to continue to be independent and not hide behind the robes of a father figure. He needs to grow in strength and confidence before the final confrontation with Voldemort. We can see that he is becoming confident enough to start mouthing back to people. Go Harry! You are nobody's whipping boy! Also, much as I loved Sirius, by hinting that he only saw Harry as a James clone, we can wonder if he actually would have been a good guardian.

Loved, LOVED the fact that James and his gang were a bunch of arrogant bullies. Snape is the most intriguing, complex character in the series. Just whose side is he on? We won't know until the end.

Loved that we finally found out why Harry has to continue to live with the Dursleys, rather than being fostered by another wizard family. Petunia still has a role to play. Yay that the Dursleys are intimidated by Harry's powerful friends.

Terrific angle... Harry or Neville? I just wish that the question had not been resolved. Or maybe it will come up again. Hmmm.

I too wonder what the centaurs did to Umbridge. (Hee!) Maybe she can share the ward with Lockhart now since a bed opened up.

And I'm positive Harry will end up with Ginny.

I was surprised we didn't get to see Ron's quiddich victory first hand. He didn't seem too disappointed that his best friends missed it.

Fred and George, we'll miss them and their antics at Hogwarts next year.

Elwen

06-25-2003, 11:33 AM

Amberion, thanks!! :) :notworthy

:)

I know why you set up the spoiler box rule - but I am trying to get more people to discuss the books here (instead of various places in te Pony) and many said they hated te spoiler boxes and didn't want to come because of that. So I was hoping we could change that soon. :)

Thanks. :)

Concerning Sirius and James Potter - yes, I was a little disturbed by his reaction to Harry's caution.... Harry is, it seems to me, so much more mature than his father at the same age (in spite of his teenage rage thing) - no wonder, really, with all the dangerous situations he has been through. Surely, Harry can tell the difference between danger and adventure like few people could at his age!

So in a way I was shocked about that conversation they had through the fire where Sirius seemed to daunt Harry because he wasn't as 'brave' (or foolhardy) as James Potter....

I hadn't thought of the implications of that :)

Elwen

Colli

06-25-2003, 11:37 AM

Hey!! :hug: Welcome!

Ah, Quidditch. Was severely disappointed by it this book. I mean, it was a great twist with Harry and Gred and Forge being kicked off the team, and allowing some new guys to get some practice (because there will be 5 empty slots next year... assuming Katie Bell and Alicia were 7th years along with Angelina) but really, not that interesting. And no matter how good of a Keeper Ron became, I can't really see how Gryffindor managed to win the Quidditch cup when in Book 3 they BARELY got it. Hm. :) Good for Ron though.

That's a good point about the death, LadyHaleth (LadyH? I'm not around the CoE much anymore ;)). We're all deeply deeply DEEPLY sad by this, and angry that Rowling did it, but you're right.... he did tend to be a bit irrational at times and probably wouldn't've made the best guardian for Harry, no matter how much he loved him.

As for Fred and George, we haven't seen the last of them. ;) Their merchandise will be all over Hogwarts next year. :D

Petunia is REALLY intriguing.. I reread the first 3 chapters last night and am more perplexed than ever. She says that she heard James telling Lily about Azkaban, but that was more than 14 years ago. How much else does she remember?

susanna

06-25-2003, 11:51 AM

The Quidditch team... one of the plotholes of HP1: There are house teams, but as it seems there is no place where the people who don't belong to the house teams play Quidditch so that maybe one day they will be good enough for the house team. Good Quidditch players don't grow on trees.

It's no real problem in HP1 of course which is a children's book and where the only important thing is that the Harry gets compensation for everything he went through at home.

But in HP5 she has to be a bit more realistic - Ron plays with his brothers. I don't know about Ginny. Was she allowed to play with her brothers?

Athelas

06-25-2003, 11:57 AM

People whose backstories I can't wait to know more about in books 6 & 7:

James & Lily
Lupin
Snape
Neville & family
Petunia
Dumbledore's family
Avery (who IS he?)

Characters I hope to see evolve:
Ginny
Luna
Pettigrew

When is book 6 coming out? She's already started writing it, right? RIGHT?

Elwen

06-25-2003, 12:00 PM

Susanna, I can't quite remember this but I think this is mentioned in the book somewhere - something along the lines that the Twins and/or Ron are talking about this and one is saying that they didn't let her play, but then it is revealed that she did play at home after all... :D

But I can't remember the exact gist of it. :)

BTW: I also like how Ginny refers to her family... 'you can't grow up with Fred and George without thinking that aynthing can be done..' (or some such)... I like the way the Weasley family works - there are a loot of disagreements, and some siblings get on better than others... but all in all they are very close (I just hope that percy comes to his senses in the end. He is such a silly git!).

@athelas (posts crossed, so this is an edit)
I think she said that she has already started. :) And that book 6 may be shorter than book 5 (with book 7 VERY long)....
And she also said that she took a long time with HP 5 because so much was changing in her life....

I wouldn't expect the next to early - but perhaps she manages sooner than in 3 yars? That would be great! :)

Elwen

Mirdan

06-25-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Athelas
Avery (who IS he?)
wasn't Avery a Death Eater? i can't be too sure, but i think he was the Death Eater who was once suspected by the Ministry to be one of Voldemort's cohorts, but charges against him were cleared up because Avery claimed that he was under the Imperius Curse. it's either that, or it must've been someone else :D

i'm really interested in knowing more about Snape and Petunia. these two characters have been the bane of Harry's existence. neither one of them can stand the sight of Harry, yet both Snape and Petunia play key roles in Harry's very safety. how ironic :cool:

i'm just wondering...how many people here have a feeling Wormtail will "pull a Grima" and switch allegiance towards the end?

Colli

06-25-2003, 03:15 PM

Mirdan, you should see my Peter Pettigrew/Judas Iscariot theories in the Questions that Need Answering thread. ;) I don't think Wormtail will stay completely loyal to Voldemort, his complete absence in OotP is an interesting sign.

Athelas

06-25-2003, 06:19 PM

I think Pettigrew will be a big factor by the end. And I agree that his absence MEANS something. (But what?)

I couldn't find Avery before he was called back in the graveyard. If anyone can refer me to something, I'd be forever grateful. I don't know why he sticks in my head!:confused:

Elwen--I wish I grew up with the Weasleys!

Moxie

06-25-2003, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Athelas
I couldn't find Avery before he was called back in the graveyard. If anyone can refer me to something, I'd be forever grateful. I don't know why he sticks in my head!:confused:

It's because Sirius mentioned him in GoF (p. 531, US edition):
Rosier and Wilkes - they were both killed by Aurors... The Lestranges... they're in Azkaban. Avery - from what I've heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he'd been acting under the Imperius Curse - he's still at large. But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater...

Mirdan, Grima didn't quite choose to renounce evil - he merely wanted revenge on Saruman for all his ill treatment. I can't recall a single case in Middle Earth history of someone actively working for evil, then consciously choosing to renounce it and trying to make up for past damage done... Snape appears to be unlike anyone Tolkien ever wrote in that respect (though in some ways he can be regarded as a reverse of Saruman).

I don't get how Gryffindor managed to win the Quidditch Cup either - unless Harry and the others got banned very late in the season, the team must have had a really lousy record in which case they's be unlikely to qualify for the final match.

There is mention of activities other than the varsity Quidditch teams (for the first time other than the short-lived Dueling Club) - one candidate for the Gryffindor team is rule out due to her involvement with a Charms club, as I recall. Given this, I expect there could very well be intra-House games or Flying clubs for those who don't make House teams.

As for the Divination teachers, I expect true prophecies are rare enough that Trelawney and Firenze are better than most Divination teachers, even if one's a flake 99.9% of the time and the other's firmly convinced his students can't learn what he has to teach... and as I've said elsewhere, I suspect Sibyll's first prophecy isn't as clear-cut as everyone (at least in the books) seems to think.

lithorose

06-25-2003, 07:09 PM

Also, there was no real way of knowing Trelawney wouldn't prophesy again at any moment. And Voldemort would have been after her, so Dumbledore couldn't let her go.

On a completely different note I loved how Hermione jinxed that list, and how she led Umbridge off into the Forbidden Forest. Clever girl!:cool:

Elwen

06-25-2003, 07:22 PM

Re. Pettigrew - I can't see him change sides again. I can sort of see him run away from (perhaps even do damage to) the cause of Voldemort. But somehow he seems a nit like the tool that gets thrown away or broken after use - I guess he won't survive book 7 and he will be killed by Voldemort's side.

Snape and Sirius' guess quoted above.... well, given Snapes' Death Eater tatoo he clearly did sign up to the club. Clearly Sirius didn't know all.... I *really* want to know how this all happened. There is no question, in any case, that Snape really has to be good at occlumency to get away with it!!! A pity Harry never got more of his mind to see some of those memories!

Good call on the Prophecy, Moxie.... I guess it will be true but we will find that it needs a different interpretation after all.

What's your guess?

Elwen

Amberion

06-25-2003, 07:25 PM

On Quidditch

I thought it said Ginny had been playing with her brothers

Also I dont think there will be so many spots available as Ginny said she was going to tryout for Chaser next year and mentions that three names including Angelina were leaving

Kids will go out and play football without a formal game and just for fun - wizarding kids would be the same I think

alqua

06-25-2003, 07:44 PM

I wonder if we'll see Neville taking up Quidditch next year. Not very likely, I suppose, after seeing his first flying lesson, but then, he's been evolving a lot.

jesuisalleeaujardin

06-25-2003, 08:16 PM

i haven't finished the book, but i'd like to contribute early on _ please feel free to react... i've been bursting with thoughts and ickle long sentences and unreigned, corny prose since the first 300 pages... haven't read any of your posts yet... thus: for your spoiling pleasure _

the divinity teacher

isn't it interesting that a centaur is teaching divinity right now? firenze replaced professor trelawney when professor umbridge fired her. firenze says that everything that trelawney taught them so far is rubbish because it comes from a human point of view _ fortune telling. it's not a human failing, that all that trelawney had to offer were her own experiences of it.

firenze isn't there to bash trelawney. he said he was there to teach them divinity the way the centaurs do _ "impersonal and impartial." he says they use herbs and the stars. and then he says that students and centaur alike shouldn't rely too much on this coz it's so easy to misread the stars and the herbs. and i'm thinking... what's the point... hehehe. ...

harry's guard

isn't it interesting that when harry was pulled from privet drive, he had an escort of the best aurors the order of the phoenix had to offer and yet when he was travelling between grimmauld place and school, the ministry of magic and elsewhere, that he only had at best one person with him? when they took the knight bus back to hogwarts, he was permitted alone with ron at the back of the bus! :-D i think it's inconsistently brillant! hahaha... and i don't know what that means. need to continue reading. ...

the prefects around harry

i think it's strategically brilliant that ron and hermione were appointed gryffindor prefects _ better to guard harry! it's so obvious _ prefects have power to round up the first years and other underclassmen, discipline, and know the ins and outs of the way things are run at school now, even if their authority is undermined by the high inquisitor squad _ lovely installers of martial law at hogwarts, hahaha. ...

but with teen angst, busyness, self-centeredness and frankness between friends, this could only mean more responsibility for ron and herminone. ;-) which brings me to my next thought _

growing up

inevitable... way too fast... too confusing... too burdensome... and if you are no longer a teenager you wonder how in the world to protect them... how in the world to break it to them... and suddenly you have a deep appreciation for those who've somehow made it passed 15 and 50 and 60 and know... they suddenly become repositories of wisdom, and you are so glad they are there.

suddenly, as well, when hermione declared, "when you don't trust dumbledore, you can't trust anyone," you wonder about what hinges on authority... you begin to understand the true meaning of the word, along with responsibility... wisdom... courage... fortitude... bravery. dumbledore later tells mcgonagall that he does stand alone for hogwarts needs her. and then you realize the meaning of the words friendship, loyalty, faith, hope. "some things are worth dying for," sirus says, and you remember samwise gamgee in peter jackson's rendition of lord of the rings: the fellowship of the ring _ sam plunges right into the river knowing he can't swim, knowing it is ice cold and that he will drown... and then you look around, look up from you pages, and wonder if there are such causes worthy in circa 2003. ...

snape says _ teacher and student

to be tutored by the teachers that you hate most _ i love these scenes with them! :-) so intimiate... mirrors the way j.k. rowling writes about the exchanges of loneliness between harry and his godfather, sirus... what would you give to have your most hated teacher read your mind, and teach you how to block him? teach you how to surpass him?

in creative settings, this happens all the time _ you must learn how to finish each other's sentences and understand the first complaints, because the faster you fix, the faster you move on, the more ground you cover. in creative settings, there is endless earth to plow, endless journeys to take, endless experiments to conduct, that you don't really have time to dwell in petty thoughts... petty thoughts become your tools.

anyways. if you had a teacher who could read your mind, who taught you how to block him, who taught you how to surpass him, that the only way you will learn is if you are doing what he does, and better... what would you do? :-) i can see a strong bond of loyalty forming between these two. i am on that chapter right now. teacher and student. maybe that's why sirus so jealously fought to be in the same room as snape when he first broke the news to harry. dumbledore assigned this task to both harry and snape. i can't wait to get back to my book. ...

snape is getting impatient that after 2 weeks of lessons, harry still isn't getting it right. then snape says that there is nothing special about him _ that it isn't harry's job to find voldermort, it is snape's. if i remember it right, we're not told how snape reacted to this bit of info, only how harry did, and that snape only made to move to continue the lesson but for an interruption. how would you react if a teacher told you so? how would you react if you found out what teachers really thought of you? naturally negatively, i think, like phineas, who says he loathes teaching... which brings me to my next point.

friends

if harry is totally ordinary, what makes him special?

it's obvious that harry is totally ordinary _ the only special thing about him is that he's killed voldermort when no one else could. i think that everyone is gifted with at least one talent they could weild with confidence and skill _ and for harry, it sounds like defense against the dark arts skills.

so if harry is your normal 15-year-old, what makes him special?

his friends. the people who stick to him because of who he is. the people who want to spend time with him, who feel comfortable hanging out with him. ;-)

my sister has already finished the book. she was crying throughout the last few pages. i was typing like insane at a message board, waiting for her to finish. she was red in the face, depressed for days on end, lethargic, lazy and just wanted to watch TV and post online. i am avoiding the message board she is on, full of spoilers and mad ramblings like this!!! i want to figure things out for myself, not have 'em shown to me by spoilers like this!!! ;-) :-D

but the quality that i really like about the harry potter books is that it is about a non-special boy surrounded by special people. it reminds me that my life is like his, ordinary made special by the people that surround me. NOW BACK TO MY BOOK. ...

http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies3/koso.gif

jardin

ChianaWeasley

06-25-2003, 08:56 PM

I was really glad Ginny replaced Harry as Seeker, not only because she's Ginny. And I've come to like her as she matured. Also I think that might be interesting to tie into their maybe relationship. Hey, a girl replaced him. Ginny replaced him. It may urke him till he realizes why he's so jealous that she replaced him. And its interesting his maybe to be girlfriend replaced him. He does have a thing for gals who can use their brooms :D

Rivenlas

06-25-2003, 09:23 PM

***Forgive the long post, I was two days without computer!
My thoughts without spoiler boxes:

Starting at the beginning?
What if Petunia isn't a squib and isn't a muggle-born? What if *gasp* she is a witch and got expelled? Her sudden knowledge is just too...cement to not be the slightest bit interested in the wizarding world!
When she talks about the dementors guarding the wizard prison *beware of major speculation* but it almost seems she is reliving something, as her thoughts are not at all on the present, and her story of simply 'overhearing' James and Lily on the subject seems somewhat unnatural. However, could be totally off here...

Now in no particular order

Percy, Percy, Percy. If you ever come crawling back, how will your family know you're for real, or just a spy for the lovely Voldie? I wouldn't trust him.
Mrs. Weasley was a bit hard on Sirius, but the reader ends up feeling sorry for her after her boggart...also, sometimes I get the idea that she loves Harry too much--that he's a son to her, yes, but sometimes I kind of think she undermines her own children for him. It's nice to have a mother figure, but really, she already has seven children...
Fred and George are beautiful. Wonderful. Great. Someone finally able to control Peeves in their own particular way. And now they wear dragonskin, which I'm sure looks great on them. What presence, what an exit, what presence after the exit...who wants to bet that Harry becomes rich after seventh year because the twins owed him a share in Weasley's Wizard Wheezes?
I really loved Ginny's character in this book. She is so much easier to like when she isn't sloppy in love with Harry! I'm glad we got to find out a) her great sense of humor b) her great power as a witch c) her talent on the quidditch field. In the end, I wasn't as interested in hearing how Ron did as how Ginny did. Hey, how come there is no "Weasley is our Queen" song?
Ron was soooo much more likable now that he is over his jealousy...thank the lord he was grown out of it, I was getting a little tired of it last book for all that I loved him.

About the Quidditch Cup:

Gryffindor won, in my opinion, because they beat Slytherin, their really important match, and the points just 'happened' to go their way, which happens a lot in real life sporting events and just really isnt fair a lot of the time. (can you say wild card?) Anyway, one other reason may be Ginny and the fact that the other teams, worried with the going-ons inside the school (and maybe some unmentioned bannings) didn't perform well either. Gryffindor really would have lost if they hadn't play Slytherin first thing.

Umbridge was terrible. Her dentention is sick--I wonder if Dumbledore didn't interfere because he knew the students would need to learn valuable lessons in the future and knew they would deal in pain?
All the teachers were awesome with her. I began to actually like Professor T, loved Professor McGonagall, and loved Snape even more. And Flitwick--wasn't sure he had the "authority!" :rotfl:

Keeping Grawp tied up is cruel. At least with the giants he had free will! Still, he saved Harry and "hermy" so not complaining...

Okay, everyone has finally come to terms with Jame's strutting...but is James dangling him upside-down to show off his gray underpants worse than Harry enjoying Draco's being bounced as a ferret? No doubt Harry would have done it himself if a) he would have had the power and b) he knew he wouldn't be in trouble...so maybe James is just a little braver about things, and a little more unkind, or maybe people just don't know both sides of the tale yet...I have yet to believe that James is that arrogant without reason. If Snape acted as badly as Draco (and yes, I love Draco, and yes, I love Snape *flinches* Don't kill me, Colli! ;)) and Harry had done the same thing that James did to Snape to Draco, then we would have been laughing it as much as the ferret bouncing. Is there two sides to this story? And has Snape's memory of this day changed as the time lenghtened to put himself completely in the right while MWPP gets the bad rap? If so, I think that's a good sign, one that shows that Snape is definitely not attached to Voldemort, who knows no right and wrong. I'm not ready, quite yet, to think either Snape or James was in the right.

Anyone else notice, that on the Knight bus Madam Marsh got off right before Harry? Anyone notice the SAME WITCH gets off in the third book, right before Harry? Any bets that she is a ministry spy?

I cried twice during this book--once, when Harry was banned from Quidditch (I knew what it meant--I would DIE if I was ever banned from volleyball! Oh, the suffering!) And one serious weeping fit from the time Sirius died til the very end.

Intermission: My sister came up the stairs and is bawling her head off. She just finished the book. I must say I understand completely.

Anyway, what if that wasn't Sirius? Maybe that was Pettigrew taking polyjuice potion, trying to tempt Harry into being reckless, into being more like James? Maybe Sirius is prisoner somewhere, and Peter (or someone else) is just pushing Voldemort's dirty work for him? I pray this is the explanation...I'm almost dying with grief! Far-fetched, I know, but no body, no ghost, no...anything, no death! *Please let me be right, please let me be right...* Or maybe...which has been brought up before...maybe Sirius isn't dead. Why couldn't Harry have used the mirror? Yeah, I'd be feelign guilty too...

Anyway, my thoughts. Enjoy.
:D

ChianaWeasley

06-25-2003, 09:37 PM

Ah! Percy has sprung up into our conversation....

this is my official People From OoTP I Loathe list

1. Professor Umbridge
2. Draco Malfoy
3. Kreacher
4. Lucius Malfoy
5. Peter Pettigrew
6. Lord Voldemort
7. Percy Weasley
8. Seamus (but only in the beginning)
9. Bellatrix Lestrange
10. Crabbe and Goyle
11. Millicent bulstrode
12. Marcus Flint
13. Cornelius Fudge

Athelas

06-25-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Rivenlas

Anyway, what if that wasn't Sirius? Maybe that was Pettigrew taking polyjuice potion, trying to tempt Harry into being reckless, into being more like James? Maybe Sirius is prisoner somewhere, and Peter (or someone else) is just pushing Voldemort's dirty work for him? I pray this is the explanation

Well, that would explain why we didn't see Wormy in this book!

Moxie

06-25-2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Rivenlas
Okay, everyone has finally come to terms with Jame's strutting...but is James dangling him upside-down to show off his gray underpants worse...? I have yet to believe that James is that arrogant without reason... Is there two sides to this story? And has Snape's memory of this day changed as the time lenghtened to put himself completely in the right while MWPP gets the bad rap? If so, I think that's a good sign, one that shows that Snape is definitely not attached to Voldemort, who knows no right and wrong. I'm not ready, quite yet, to think either Snape or James was in the right.

I find it quite significant that what James and Sirius did to Snape is pretty much exactly what the Death Eaters did to the Muggle campground owners at the Quidditch World Cup; seems to me there isn't much difference between one band of bullies and the other, besides choice of targets (and note that while Snape at least can wield magic, he was outnumbered and surprised by James and Sirius. Nice show of Gryffindor chivalry, those two. :rolleyes: ) As for Snape's memory changing, Harry saw this incident not within Snape's mind but within the Pensieve, which shows events exactly as they happened... though of course there probably were other Snape/Marauder interactions we and Harry haven't seen yet, and they may well show that as you say neither side was exactly in the right, the Pensieve revelations combined with the first Shrieking Shack incident (Snape could easily have been killed or infected with lycanthropy, and Lupin probably would have been executed or at the very least expelled and exiled from wizarding society in either case... far from a harmless prank!) tend to support Snape's position.

Since Snape is alphabetically after all four Marauders' surnames, I wonder if their conflict started before arrival at Hogwarts and perhaps young Severus, seeing where all four of his adversaries had Sorted to, pleaded with the Hat "Not Gryffindor..."?

PhoenixSong1031

06-25-2003, 11:46 PM

Hello everybody! ;) Even though I finished the book a few days (Saturday night) ago .. it took me a while to find the time to think over the book and write what I felt about the book... So here goes.

Characters:
Harry - I wasn't too annoyed with the anger in the slightest. I think that if JKR hadn't made Harry vent with frustration and anger over his little knowledge of something he was very much involved in, I would have been upset because he was made to seem too perfect. No one could have withstanded that type of frustration and annoyance without exploding eventually. Even his explosion at Dumbledore was reasonable considering the fact that even Dumbledore said that Harry had been ready to find this out years ago, but thought better of it because he was too young. Wasn't that the same reason he was screaming at Ron & Hermione - because he knew nothing and thought they did? And the same reason he wanted to know the truth from those in the Order -- Because he had a right to know.
About the DA - That was just extraordinary. Seeing Harry perform like that and teaching his "students" all he knew... Almost reminds me of what Fred, George and Lee were saying about Moody in GoF - "He knows man ... what it's like to be out there, doing it...." ;) And then it got even better when the group of them went to the Ministry on the rescue mission - Harry wasn't standing alone this time!

Hermione - AWESOME!!!!! I enjoyed her being "mini-Mrs.Weasley" and her new insights were a wonderful addition - and trying to keep angry Harry in check all at the same time!

Ron - I can't believe he was made a prefect -- finally coming out from Harry's shadow... It's about time!! It's wonderful to see him be the Gyffindor keeper - something else that now he & Harry can share. Even though those two get into some heated arguements, they will always be there for each other. It's like Harry having the relationship he never had with Dudley.

Fred & George - THEY ROCK!!!!!! :notworthy I absolutely LOVED their exit!!!! And the last words to Peeves were just spectacular!! Peeves did a wonderful job "seeing Prof.Umbridge out" I must say!! I can't believe Flitwick leaving a portion of the swamp in the corridor -- like a shrine to their greatness! :D

Snape - I still can't get over the fact that he seemed to be more like Harry than like Draco when he was at school!! One question: Then why does he prefer Malfoy over Harry???
I greatly appreciate that JKR took some time to elaborate a little on the insight to Snape's past ... but now we need more of course!! We still didn't get any on the supposed Death Eater dispute - and what he's doing for the Order.

Marauders - The fact that James & Sirius used to bully Snape bothered me because I always envisioned James like Harry. Though I can see how you'd make the connection between the ferret and the tree-hanging, Rivenlas. Sirius I didn't have a problem seeing as a troublemaker though. He always seemed to me as that type of person - just as Hermione pointed out to both Harry and Ron... about how Sirius thinks that Harry = James and that he has his best friend back again (or something to that extent). And Lupin being a prefect?! That was awesome! I like how Dumbledore expected him to "keep his friends in check". :D But surprisingly no mention of Pettigrew almost anywhere in this whole book.... That seems a little strange to me too.

Neville - ROCKED!! It's great to see him start to "avenge" his mother & father. He really improved and I can't believe that he was the other person who could've been in the prophesy. That was a nice added touch by JKR... something I wouldn't have expected. :)

Ginny - Glad to see her finally stand up for herself. Actually getting over Harry was a good thing for her. I loved when she told him that she was the only one who could understand about being possessed by Voldemort. Another point by Chiana about how Ginny replacing Harry on the Quidditch field could pose for some interesting complications... :cool: I would love to see them end up together!

Cho - Happy that she is out of the picture. Can't really imagine her trying to like Harry while just trying to get over Cedric at the same time. Was that her only motive - to find out what really happened to him? Or was Harry just as good as Cedric in her eyes so she thought she "try him out"??

Petunia - IS she the one that will come to magic late in life?? Or does she already have it?? Wow, this is tough for me to comprehend. But of course either suggestion could lead off to explanations of her bitterness of Harry & Lily, her refusal to talk of her sister, and the reason that she might be hiding it all in the first place. OR was it taken away??

Sirius' Death - Saved this for last.. I have to say that I was hurt and disheartened when he was killed off (yes, I do think that he is dead...). I didn't cry because at that point I really didn't think that he had died - it took me a minutes to realize what had actually happened. When the battle raged in the Ministry I had a suspicion that someone was getting killed either intentionally or perphaps by a stray jet of green light.... :eek: But fortunately for us, the latter was not the case. Instead, the Sirius fans get to loathe Bellatrix for killing Sirius and depriving Harry the only father-figure (apart from Mr.Weasley perphaps and Dumbledore) he had ever known. I believe, and I know that someone said this somewhere, that JKR killed off Sirius as a way of giving Harry reasons to fight and kill Voldie in the end... The outcome of the prophecy.

Sorry that was so long - had to get it out or I would scream ... no one I knew has finished yet! :beer:

~Phoenix

ElfTBD

06-26-2003, 12:00 AM

You know, what I'd like to know is what Dumbledore was really doing behind the scenes (besides avoiding Harry) since he didn't seem to be paying much attention to Umbridge when he *knew* she was going to pull something in the name of the ministry...I think he knew when she commented on the Patronus Harry talked about at his trial....

That conversation Harry has with (or rather, shouting match) with Dumbledore after still really gets me....

Monkfish

06-26-2003, 01:56 AM

How do I rate OOTP?

As Ron would say: "Brilliant!"

:notworthy :cool:

Fimbrethil

06-26-2003, 05:48 AM

Hi, everyone! :wave: Just wandered in to gripe after reading the 5th book! It was fab of course... not a dull page but...
AAARRRGGGGHH!!!
Does she really have to kill Sirius off!?! :( It may make Harry more independant but he's lost sooooo much already. Seeing that already he lives a sad and daunting life (thanks to the prophecy), can't he at least keep his godfather?!? :mad:
Not to be a blubber but I was sobbing like mad during the last few chapters after his parting... sorry... *grins sheepishly* Sirius is my favourite character...

Other than that, I thought that the Fred & George was wonderful! Their crazy antics really got me through the book faster! I especially liked the part about their fireworks and swamp and the teachers refusing to help the 'hem hem' witch about it! :D Their ideas for the joke shop are priceless. I really think that they're gonna do very well in the future and eventually make Mrs Weasley proud! :)

The teachers were great around Umbridge! Remember the part where Prof Sprout awarded Gryffindor 20 points just because Harry passed her a watering can?
Or the one about Prof Trelawney predicting that Harry'll live to a ripe 'ol age, become Minister for Magic and have 12 kids!! I think I'm beginning to like her... ;)

What is it with using Umbridge's fireplace to talk to Sirius? Can't Harry have used the mirror he gave him? :rolleyes:
Though I do liked the way Ron and the rest blasted Malfoy's troops to get to Harry. Nose-bogey bats indeed!

And I liked the way Harry charmed Prof Tofty with his DADA skills at his practical...
I was really happy when they formed the DA. It really seemed to me that it was a good opportunity for Harry to have more friends. They may not be totally loyal (read Mariette) but at least he'll have some people on his side for a change. Hermione's spell for snitches was awesome! Dobby is beginning to grow on me as well!

Did anyone shed a tear for Neville when Harry & co met him and his gran at St Mungo's? It was so touching when he kept the sweet wrapper from his mum. I'll bet he keeps every single thing that was given to him... :(
His trust in Harry is so sweet!

I loved Luna and Tonks too! It's just something about them that stands out. I hope we get to see more of them in future...

About the prediction, do you think that the reason Prof Trelawney always predicted that Harry'll die all the time has to do with her being not confident that he'll be able to overcome Voldermort? :eek:

Ron & Hermione being prefects. Wow! It's sad for Harry to be left out but I've always seen Harry as more of a Quidditch captain than a head boy so..... It's also good that since they're his 2 best mates, they'll be able to protect him. With the twins gone, I hope Ron'll be able to hold his side of the job well and not bug Hermione so much!

And Percy... WHAT A HUMONGOUS GIT HE IS! I would understand if he stopped talking to Harry for the sake of his job but his family as well!?! *sigh* I guess there'll always be one black sheep in every family, huh? And to think Mrs Weasley weeped for him too when she faced the Boggart!

And last but not least. I really can't wait to see the movie for this one! Don't trout me but Sirius sounds really good in his teenage years! :o Torturing Snape aside, I thought that James & his gang are just trying to show off in front of the girls. Typical teenage behaviour. They're not neccesarily bad. I mean, they did eventually grew out of it.
I'm really thankful that Harry seems to be more mature at their age... Nicer... maybe it has to do with his harsh upbringing.
(I really think that Dumbledore did the right thing when he sent Harry to the Dursleys. At least he didn't spend his childhood around his worhippers which would definitely kill his character...)

Oh, Wow! Sorry for yakking non-stop but I had to! Just felt terribly excited after I've read the book after 2 long years of waiting!

susanna

06-26-2003, 06:49 AM

it's not typical teenage behaviour. Most teenagers don't behave like that.

Did they really grow out of it? Remember Sirius' comment on his "trick" on Snape in Prisoner of Azkaban? I have mislaid my copy, so I quote by memory: He deserved it, greasy oily git that he was.

Not understanding that nothing that Snape was or did could justify bringing him into mortal danger...

And behaviour like the one shown by Sirius and James is utterly destructive for the victim. Not feeling safe at school, not being allowed behave freely but feeling that whatever one says might be considered wrong - it will turn a person into a complete introvert, someone without any spontaneity, it will prevent a person from learning so-called so social competences. The victim will learn that he/she is only safe if he/she behaves very very carefully, thinking more of what he/she can do without getting bullied again than thinking about what he/she wants to do.

And I think that fifteen year olds should know enough about good and evil to know that what they do is bad. There is no excuse for behaviour like this, especially if they don't seem to repent as grown-ups.

I think some of the blames should be on the grown-ups. It's the duty of grown-ups to see that all the kids feel safe. But most of them don't do this.

Here it's again Dumbledore... he just says: Some wounds don't heal, instead of asking himself what he could have done to help Snape that the wounds can heal.

There seems to be a culture that says that it is okay to bully a strange child. Maybe you should visit the thread Do you suffer from neurotypical syndrome (http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4266), take the test and have a look at the last question. There seems to be an attitude that says that the child who gets bullied brought it on himself/herself. Blaming the victim. Grown-ups seem to think that it is easier to try and teach the victim to behave in a way that does not make it a victim than to deal with the bully. And there is a culture among young people that says that it is wrong to call to grown-ups for help.

Sorry for rambling. And yes, I was one of the victims. And I think there is no excuse for what Sirius or James do, not even that they are only fifteen.

Persephine

06-26-2003, 09:14 AM

Well, I've finished a long time ago and am now concentrating on rereading it.

I liked the fact that Mrs Figg is a squib. I knew something like this was bound to happen! Of course, ol' Dung just had to leave and get Harry into trouble. Bah.

I can't believe Petuina has some knowledge of the wizarding world! I can't believe she actually knows about the dementors and REMEMBERED them!!!

I don't know about you all, but I loved Nymphadora Tonks. She is just so cool!

Okay, Harry's changing emotions and temper. He seems angry half the time. But I like it! He's probably at an age where everything in the world doesn't agree with him. I really pity him. I mean, he's so sweet when Ron got the prefect badge and he didn't! He just thought it over! Teehee...seeing him dismantling Dumbledore's office was quite saddening but funny at the same time. I couldn't help thinking that Dumbledore would feel quite awful. But Harry's grief seemed to overpower him! Poor darling. I just wanted to hug him.

I loved Harry's sarcasm in this book! Is it just me or did he grow meaner? As in more sarcastic? But I loved his sense of humour! And Sirius's too. Hermione saying something about Ron having the emotional thingy as large as a teaspoon was pretty funny too.

Sirius.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo.. ......

I loved him. He can't die just like that. And Harry was so upset. :(

Bah...I cried during the Morror part. I cried when Dumbledore told him why he didn't make him a prefect. I'm a wreck.

I loved the fighting scene among the DA members and the death eaters. They have really great potential in pretecting themselves! Honestly, they have managed to suivive twelve death-eaters. Whoa...

Yikes, long rant. Still am too upset about Sirius. Will be back soon. Seeyall. :(

Athelas

06-26-2003, 09:37 AM

I think JKR takes that kind of bullying quite seriously, and put it in so Harry and the readers would take it seriously also. However, I think she will show that stupid->awful behavior in your teenage years doesn't mean you can't become a good adult and feel shame over things you did to hurt others (including your parents!remembering my own teen years )

Prof. Trelawny: I don't think she is aware of her only 2 'real' predictions. But it would be VERY interesting if Wormtail was the person who overheard the 1st one.

Elwen

06-26-2003, 10:40 AM

The bullying issue is definitely taken seriously, I have to agree.... but does everyone among her readers take it seriously? Doing it to impress the girls isn't a mitigating circumstance, it actually makes it worse, IMHO.

Hey, I have been on the receiving end of bullying as well and I know what it feels like. I think this is why I sympathise with Harry and this is why my opinion of Snape has changed so much.

I was shocked that Sirius clearly hadn't understood that what they did was a bad idea - so some peopel don't get it. Of course, his unfortunate life and his batchelor lifestyle weren't exactly helpful in understanding things like this. SOmeone who suffers so much is bound to think back of their youth as a wonderful time where everything was just all right.

I'd love to see more of Lily Evans and her influence on James Potter!! Perhaps James Potter changed his mind? Not as far as we hear from Snape, of course.

What I find shocking is that Snape doesn't have a problem with supporting the terrible bully Malfoy and with bullying Harry, and even worse, Neville.

As someone who has been bullied (and who got through it with enough self-confidence to be able to speak out most of the time) I hope I am not doing this to people - I certainly give some thought to my behaviour in this respect. And I think I am good at spotting people bullying others and if I can I'll try to do something about it.

Why doesn't Snape do that? Given his own experience I find his behaviour as a teacher (and as a person more in general) quite inacceptable.

I think we yet have to hear more about Snape's attitude to Malfoy... is he trying to keep Draco out of trouble (i.e. away from the Death Eaters)? I just don't get what drives Snape's attitude and behaviour there. I can understand why he doesn't like Harry (even if it is unfair, he isn't the only one who thinks that Harry has to be like his father just because he looks like him) but there has to be something about the Malfoys and Snape!!

Wjhat would Lucius Malfoy think about Snape? Doesn't he know that Snape has betrayed Voldemort? Or does he think Snape is V's man in Hogwarts? V clearly knows that Snape has left him (cf. V's remarks about the missing Death Eaters in GoF - one has left him for ever - this I think is Snape, and one is on the run - the headmaster of Durmstrang, unless I am mistaken!).

Hmmmmmmm.....

I also like the idea that Dumbledore saw Lupin as the responsible one among that crowd around James Potter. :) Lupin's life is perhaps closest to Harry's in a way - weighed down by a very difficult situation he just tries to get across that he is normal, compassionate and a good friend. How did he feel that the others turned his condition into something like a joke? Of course it must have been great not to be so alone with it any more, but then he must have been worried, too.

I loved Lupin as DADA teacher and I so hope we'll get a LOT more of him!! :)
I'd love him to take on the responsibility for Harry - as the last one left of these friends (not counting Pettigrew, of course) he might do that, perhaps. :)

Elwen

Lady Haleth

06-26-2003, 11:01 AM

Then why does he prefer Malfoy over Harry???
After being the victim as a child Snape finds himself in a position of power, admired by the current crop of bullies, and able to exact a limited revenge on the (look-a-like) son of one of his tormentors. I doubt he likes Malfoy any better than he does Harry, but he can use Malfoy as a tool for keeping Harry off balance. Snape is the most interesting and complex character in the series.

Does she really have to kill Sirius off!?! It may make Harry more independant but he's lost sooooo much already. Seeing that already he lives a sad and daunting life (thanks to the prophecy), can't he at least keep his godfather?!?
No, he can't. Harry was already starting to rely too much on what Sirius would say/do when problems arose. He has to learn to trust in his own instincts and abilities, and not look to any of the adults around him (including Dumbledore) for rescuing if he is going to face Voldemort alone in a final confrontation. The DA shows that he is starting to gain confidence. And as for the mirror, Harry didn't open it until after Sirius died and he realized that if he had used it, he would have known that Sirius had not been captured. Guilt on top of anger.

Petunia... what if we find out that she is a witch and left Hogwarts of her own accord? Maybe something happened (crush on James?) that caused her to renounce her heritage and become estranged from her sister? Wouldn't Vernon be shocked?
:jawdrop: :LOL:

Snape, Petunia, James, Sirius... no more black and white characterizations (for the adults, anyway), but lots of shades of grey. (And this is still considered a children's book?)

BTW, the current issue of Time Magazine has a glowing review of OotP.

Elwen

06-26-2003, 11:11 AM

I think it should be the mark of every good childrens' book that there is no such thing a sblack and white. I love that. Even Harry has his dark sides, so do Dumbledore, Hermione, Ron... and so on. Very good.

Back to Snape: I agree with Lady Haleth on his motives for bullying Harry ... but why is he bullying Neville who really should remind him of himself?

Do you think there is some sort of vendetta going on here as well - SNape nearly has to know Neville's parents, they must be about the same generation, and then there are Snape's death eater days....

Still, I can deal with his treatment of Harry (even apart from the good story lines it makes for) but his attitude to Nevile is rather shocking....

Elwen

Master Samwise

06-26-2003, 11:28 AM

Well, I'm nearly through it, about 150 more pages to go, and its got a big thumbs up from me...

I hate that woman. HATE her. People that obtuse really annoy me.

I think I've figured out why Dumbledore hasn't looked Harry in the eyes, although it hasn't been made explicit yet...

I'm getting a bit tired of the trio though. Its just constant sniping between them, and although its good fun for four books, not for the fifth. When are they going to havea serious conversation where they actually finish sentences?

:D

Fred and George, wow :D

And the scene in Dumbledore's office :D WOW! Great cinema there.

Overall though, I cannot for the life of me see how they are going to turn this into a movie. Where do you cut it? What can be left out?

But Snape is Alan Rickman, as Elwen said earlier, MacGonnigle is yer woman (I've forgotten her name), and I cannot wait ti see who they find for Sirius (who is the best character in the book I do believe...) and Lupin.

Did anyone like the little cameo of Gilderoy Lockheart in the Hospital? :D He can write joint up now ;) And why doesn't Umbridge try to question Hermione, Ron, the other Weasley's for Sirius' location, just as she tried to do with Harry??? :confused:

susanna

06-26-2003, 02:55 PM

Why does Snape support Malfoy and bullies Neville and Harry?

Lady Haleth gave one possible explanation, I have another one:

He might be ashamed of being a victim, and so he tries to forget it and to forget how he felt about it... or some part of him took side with the bullies, blaming the victim, as a lot of people do, believing that the victim brought it on himself, even though he was the victim. You can brainwash people to believe this, even in situations that are worse than schoolyard bulllying, say taking a person as a hostage (Stockholm syndrome) or abuse it as a child who depends on you.

It's a way to survive in situations where you are powerless. But you survive as a traumatized person, not in touch with yourself.

Elwen, as it seems, managed to stay in touch with the child she used to be, I at least managed to stay in touch with it rationally, though it is difficult for me to relate to it emotionally because it hurts. Snape as it seems did not manage to stay in touch. If he had done so he might have been able to talk to Harry about what he saw in the pensieve.

I think that J.K. Rowling takes bullying very seriously, as seriously as the big discussions about good and evil her books are about. I cannot say the same about grown-up Sirius.

katzpotter

06-26-2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Master Samwise
But Snape is Alan Rickman, as Elwen said earlier, MacGonnigle is yer woman (I've forgotten her name), and I cannot wait ti see who they find for Sirius (who is the best character in the book I do believe...) and Lupin.

Ah. Gary Oldman is playing Sirius (I saw pics. He loks like a Sirius. I was hoping for Viggo Mortenson, but... no such luck. :D David Thewlis is playing Lupin, and Timothy Spal plays the evil Pettigrew.... Dame Maggie Smith plays McGonagall.

What is it with using Umbridge's fireplace to talk to Sirius? Can't Harry have used the mirror he gave him?

That's a good point. He probably could have, but was so freaked out by that time that he didn't even think about it.

Plus, if Harry had used the mirror, he probably would have reached Sirius and that bloody Kreacher wouldn't have interfered. Of course, this would have led to no fight in the DoM, no Harry learning about the prophecy, and no Sirius dying. Hmmmm.

ChianaWeasley

06-26-2003, 03:32 PM

Well Snape for more reasons than one bullies Harry, but i cannot think of a reason why he bullies Neville so much. He isnt at his best in potions class of course, but poor Neville, how he tries:)

Where can we find pics of Gary Oldman Katz?

katzpotter

06-26-2003, 03:43 PM

Pics of Gary Oldman can be found here (http://www.csh.rit.edu/~halle/oldman/images.html).

I couldn't find pics of David Thewlis or Timothy Spal.

(And that IS a good point... why DOES Snape bully poor Neville?)

Elwen

06-26-2003, 03:44 PM

Chiana,

Just go to IMDB (http://uk.imdb.com/Title?0304141) - I have linked the page for prisoner of Azkaban - just scroll down through the cast list and you'll get pictures for most of te actors. I think Oldman is a GREAT choice. The right mixture between cool, funny, nice, and totally warped (if he wants to).

I also *love* the choice for Pettigrew. :D
You have to look at his pictures to understand. :rotfl:

Spot-on! :D

Susanna,
I can understand your concerns with the issue but I think I understand Sirius' stance as well. I guess often bulies don't understand just what they are doing to other people. Don't get me wrong, I guess most will know that what they are doing isn't exactly nice, but they wouldn't understand the effects.

So for them it was 'a bit of fun' - especially for someone like Sirius for whom the memories of his youth - including those 'bits of fun' were the only thing to hold on to in the long dark years after.

Not an excuse but something to think about anyway.

I am still disturbed about Snapes' treatement of Neville... in the real world this would need to be stopped ASAP.

Since this is a book I obviously won't throw about my ideas about education (we are getting a little too serious here, IMHO) but I rather wonder what it is between Snape and Neville? By now I speculate that there is something behind this, beyond Neville's being in the wrong House and a little clumsy on top of that.

Elwen

ChianaWeasley

06-26-2003, 03:53 PM

Well I kno what Oldman looks like, I thought there were pictures of him in costume :(

But Pettigrew really is spot on for the part!

susanna

06-26-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Elwen
Since this is a book I obviously won't throw about my ideas about education (we are getting a little too serious here, IMHO) Indeed. I think it was me - though I have this other thread "Questions to teenagers."

We can open a new thread about education as well! I would join! J.K. Rowling is great in her description of how a school works.

And I just had a look at your link. Oldman looks to fine to play Sirius. But then I saw that he was Dracula in the version with Keanu Reeves, and he tempted Winona Ryder to leave Keanu Reeves for his sake, and I could understand Winona Ryder - perfect choice.

Keanu Reeves: :swoon:

Lady Haleth

06-26-2003, 03:59 PM

Good point about the motive for Snape vs Neville. In addition to knowing the Longbottoms, Snape is likely related to them somehow, if what Sirius said is true about them all intermarrying. (Snape is pure wizard, isn't he? He certainly acts that way. It would also make him related to the Blacks. Hmm.)

I did a major woo HOO when I heard that Gary Oldman had been cast as Sirius. My two very favorite sinister bad guy actors (Alan Rickman being the other) in the same movie. :clap: :clap:

Oh, one more thing that I've been thinking about. If Snape has such horrible memories of Hogwarts and is not terribly fond of children, why in the world would he become a teacher?

lithorose

06-26-2003, 04:50 PM

Does it seem to anyone else like Snape's just adopted the philosophy that life is tough and unfair and you just have to learn to take it?

Also, part of Sirius' dislike of Snape may be Snape's attitude towards mudbloods. Sirius may have lumped him in with all the people in his family that he detested. Did Sirius know Snape was working for Dumbledore? If not, his dislike of him would just grow after what happened to the Potters, and have 12 years in prison to make it all that much stronger.

Oldman and Thewlis will both rock in the movies!

AldureLusiha

06-26-2003, 05:19 PM

Hello everyone -

This is my first time posting in well over a year, when the site was connected to the Council of Elrond. I've been reading thorugh this thread (it's a very interesting discussion) for the past few days while I was having a few issues with my registration. I hope this post goes alright.

That being said, I think the observation regarding Snape's treatmeant of Harry and Neville is fascinating. I think that being at Hogwarts as a teacher, and being able to bully around the students, has given him the confidence and the power that he never had while he was a student. Now he has the authority and the respect that he always wanted, even though bullying is the only way he could receive it in the end. As much as it hurt him as a youth, he never really healed from what he suffered and thus now inflicts it on others. It reminds me of how children who are abused are more likely to become abusers themselves. It's sad but true - it's what they're exposed to and sometimes they don't know how to handle situations any other way. Neville might anger him because in a way (whether Snape realizes it or not) Neville seems a bit like he was at Hogwarts: always made fun of, not very popular, and completely hopeless. That is a past that Snape appears to be trying to forget, and probably why the Death Eaters and the power they offered was so appealing to him.

On a different note, I may have missed the answer to this somewhere earlier in the posts, but I know there was alot of discussion about Petunia being a squib. I thought that in CoS Tom made the point to Harry that they were similar - both halfbloods. In the Pensieve, Snape makes a point to remind Lily of her muggle background. Doesn't this suggest that Petunia is not a squib but merely a muggle like her parents? I was under the impression that James was of a wizarding family. I may be wrong here, so please corrections or comments are very welcome.

t3h Qster

06-26-2003, 05:50 PM

well I finished it, and I was sad to hear that he had toreturn home, but with that ''blood shield'' dumbledore spoke of, anyone would be a fool not to wanna be safe for 2 months worry free, and besides after all the fighting the trio had in this book, perhaps some time away from each other was what they will need

I am curious as to what they got on their owls.....hope hermione did well on her arithmancy :)

jesuisalleeaujardin

06-26-2003, 06:30 PM

:mad:

for those who don't have a lot of time to read long, rambling posts, suffice it to say that i'm mad. i'm angry at rowling for having killed off sirus.

but if you have time, please read on. :D

i suppose after anger comes resignation, and then resignation despair. not done angry yet coz i'm still hoping sirus comes back somehow. but if he does, it will most likely be for harry again, and at risk to himself again. i just want harry to send off his godfather properly, but that might do more harm to harry than good _ don't think it's right that harry will have to go through loosing his godfather all over again.

i just finished the book oh, about 12 hours ago. nine hours ago i finally fell asleep, four hours ago i woke up so that i can finally face my day... i work at night, so my job isn't really affected, haha... anyways, i didn't cry during the last few chapters, but i didn't want to stop reading _ i wanted to skip harry and her friends getting lost in the department of mysteries. it was sounding way too fishy to me even then _ i hated the suspense, hated the descriptions of the wonderful department. hated the fact that it smelled like a trap to me. hated harry's heroism. why didn't he go to snape after umbridge was carried off by the centaurs? why didn't hermione think of this? why didn't snape see them flying off on thestrals to london?!

a strange thing happened to me _ i didn't cry. it made me wonder about my relationship to books _ they always were too real to me in the past. but i didn't have long to wait before the reality of it all hit me. harry and his friends separated. hermione cursed in the heart. neville rendered almost mute, ron insane. luna who shouldn't even be there, and ginny who is nursing a broken ankle. what if all of this were real? would they turn out like their parents, a generation wasted? and... where were the adults, anyway?

when i did cry, i wondered what in the world i was doing, why wasn't it making sense, and then i started writing in my online journal... until something clicked... and i guess that's why i didn't feel a thing at first _ i was shocked, maybe that i couldn't relate, or knew exactly how harry was feeling, wondered if i was too thick to understand what was really going on... and then it was 6:30 a.m. and i knew i needed to get some sleep coz my life, unfortunately unlike harry and sirus, would not understand if i had to take a few days off so i can mourn over non-existent characters printed by a publishing company that primarily specializes in children's books. i learned that if i try to reread the first four books again, i would never see book 5 coz my two other sisters would have torn it to shreds already between them... this is why we have multiple copies of tokien. rowling is threatening to get rich via my family's appetite for her words.

whew.

anyways, here's another excerpt from my insane ramblings this morning. before writing it i went back to book three and reread that harry was able to produce a patronus only after thinking that he was moving away from the dursleys to live with sirus. i'd like to add that like most parents on sept. 11, they died leaving children, and without a body for relatives to bury.

the new harry potter book is a brilliant piece of writing set in the post-sept. 11 world. no wonder rowling inscribed a copy to the new york city public library, "to the residents of the city of new york _ with admiration," or something to that extent.

this book is written for those who have lost someone. it speaks to those who are aching for their return. it echoes the need for the departed to come back, speak, fill up the hole they've so suddenly left.

it seemed to take sirus an age to fall. he body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch. ...

and harry saw the look of mingled fear and suprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though a high wind and then fell back into place.

... sirus had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second. ...

but sirus did not reappear.

... "he can't come back, harry," said lupin, his voice breaking as he struggled to contain harry. "he can't come back because he's d---"

"HE - IS - NOT - DEAD!" roared harry. "SIRUS!"

jardin

Halbarad

06-26-2003, 08:25 PM

I'm another COE transfer... good discussion here.

I though Dumbledore would be the death, and I was wrong. What I like about killing the most powerful good guy off is the need for development of the lesser stars... a la Gandalf and Obi Wan dying in those stories.

I was a little disappointed that McGonagal was not expanded more... what she did was great, but I wonder why she is not even stronger in the OotP.

That Ginny was not in Mrs. Weasley's Boggart fear cast bothered me...

I suspect that the `blood magic' issue does imply a connection between Petunia, Tom Riddle, and Lily. I was surprised that Sirius' family tree did not have a connection to James Potter.

all the best, the real Halbarad

t3h Qster

06-26-2003, 08:43 PM

COE? what is that........sorry for the small post....but I was curious....I hate acronyms that I dont know :(

Moxie

06-26-2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by t3h Qster
COE? what is that........sorry for the small post....but I was curious....I hate acronyms that I dont know :(

It's the Council of Elrond, which you can find a link to on the Muggle Informer's top Forums page; MI started out as one Harry Potter thread in the Prancing Pony before getting its own forum and finally its own domain name.

Hal, I got the impression Harry walked in on the middle of Molly's Boggart problem, in which case the Boggart could have taken Ginny's form before Ron's - which makes sense to me as Molly would likely feel especially protective about her youngest child and only daughter. James would probably have been burned off the Black tapestry as a 'blood traitor' when he married Lily; Snape might be (or have been) on there somewhere too, though Harry probably didn't think to look for him.

j (do you have a common shortened version of that name of yours yet?), I didn't cry over Sirius' death either - but that's because I read fast and was (and am, I suppose) still fuming over learning what a vicious bully he was. Oldbies here know my sympathy was with Snape anyway, but after suffering through bullying through much of grade school (with nothing done about it by adults - who says Hogwarts isn't realistic? :rolleyes: ) myself I'm all the more firmly in Snape's corner now.

As for Snape's motivation for ill-treating his students, he may well be going overboard proving "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" - note that after making potions in Snape's class for five years, the pressure of the Potions OWL seems like nothing to Harry and the others. I doubt Harry, Ron, or of course Hermione got anything less than the O they all need to continue into advanced Potions classes and even Neville probably did far better than one might expect based on his everyday performance in Snape's class. (I hope he did; I'm rooting for Neville to go into mediwizarding research, for which he would presumably need a strong background in Potions as well as in Herbology.)

Elwen

06-26-2003, 10:07 PM

Susanna,
aren't you just a little to serious? I know the topic is important to you, but (compared to the school I remember very vividly) Hogwarts is a caricature, not a good portrayal and, as far as I am concerned, that is a good thing because it is a caricature that still allows people to find their own nieche for personal concerns and so on. But it is a caricature nevertheless (even as far as the Uk public (=private) school system is concerned.....

In fact, compared to my school I find Hogwarts scary and not a very co genial place to be at all. It is fun to read about it but I would hate to be there!

A school that has competition built into its system as this school hjas (especially when individual punishments and rewards are part of the equation) is just so wrong in RL.

But it makes for fun literature. And in my dreams I like thinking about being in Hogwarts myself. :)
That is why I think discussing this on a 'real' level doesn't make much sense!

Nice to meet you, AldureLusiha and t3h Qster... :)

Aldure, I think you are on to something with Lily's muggle family. I for one think that petunia is 100% muggle - but her parents were so proud of Lily therefore i assume that the family (just like Hermione's parents, resumably) got to hear about it quite a bit.

and Qster,
Are you really co ncerned about Hermione's marks? That's the only thing I am not worried about! :)

I do wonder whether Harry manages to get good marks for all the subjects he is supposed to be studying the next year! I can't see that happening in potions, although apparently it went better than Harry had expected....

Elwen

PS: did someone mention Keanu Reeves? :swoon:

jesuisalleeaujardin

06-26-2003, 10:39 PM

woohoo! CoE people rule. let's beef this board up! :p

just wanted to respond to posts _ i wanted to do this earlier but my crazy anger is now slowly being replaced by inacceptance, :LOL: ... i guess swinging between disbelief and resignation is normal... i hope. anyways:

lady haleth _ my guess is that snape prolly still taught coz deep down he really liked school, liked learning, and that coming from a violent home, hogwarts was the only real home he had. i'm not sure why he can't let go of his hatred for james. him and sirius and james are all the same, i tell ya: only human :p according to sirius, james out grew it, but i guess he and snape hadn't yet. have to reread what lupin thinks of this whole party in book 3. ...

as for the need to kill of sirius... to be honest, i don't think it's needed _ but i can see how dumbledore thought that it would be best to leave harry with a muggle family for the time being, and not only because for his protection against the big V. i think the quality that harry developed with sirius, being the one person he was really open to, was very special and to have it taken from him at this age _ not only because also he now knows about the prophecy _ is just... tragic. but we can also say that harry, at 15, has already matured that we know he can handle anything thrown at him. he has the support of the most esteemed wizards, the loathing of the same _ a huge compliment. but i hope he learns how and where to ask for help because i don't want his temper or his loneliness overwhelm him :) . ...

fimbrethil and persephine _ let's all pause for a moment of silence and share a :hug: . yea, sirius should have been left alone. yanno? he shoulda grabbed the edge of the arch or something... the veil... he was suprised before he died... prolly didn't realize how rusty his skills were... hadn't dueled in a long time... was still too overconfident... ahh well _ can't remember if lupin ever told him off at the shrieking shack the last time or since... ya, he's my fave character too. rowling made him so endearing to both harry and his dad. "if it bothers you," my arshe. but yes _ there will be people you know you will hate all your life, and people you know you won't all your life :). ...

phoenix _ the exit of the twins hahaha _ i knew they just couldn't leave hogwarts the same way they trotted in to it. love the way rowling said that now the whole school wants to take over the post of Troublemaker-in-Chief. i'm going to miss their antics at school. (as if i went to hogwarts!!! hahahaha)

as for mcgonagall having bit parts _ ya, i agree! i thought she would take a more prominent role here _ but she did already, right, in book 4? and she was rendered useless with 4 stuns!... but i think again, rowling did this to show the lack of enough adults to help out kids _ a statement to adults everywhere... it's depressing if not a bit... i dunno, out there? that's what struck me most about this book _ while it is told from the point of view of a 15-year-old, adults seem to be outnumbered 20 to 1 or so... does that mean that we don't communicate well with the kids around us? does that mean that when you grow up... you totally move on to this separate world... haha reminds me of philip pullman's his dark materials (http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1091). ...

as for james being the bully _ i dunno. if he was best buddies with sirius, who already struck me as the adventurous, reckless type, i kinna expected it. teachers remembered them as troublemakers like the weasley twins. if anything, i was a little shocked to learn that it was sirius who was the mellow one. james had the bravado but sirius had the style, both talented and well-liked. sheesh _ no wonder snape hated them. on top of being like that, they bullied him! :p

that's why, moxie, i agree with you with regards to snape. :) i tried making friends with one of the girls we pestered, and when an opportunity came she was all stiff to me, haha _ that was in high school. can't blame her. i was more like sirius without the suave and style, contributing from the sidelines, hahaha. ...

and, well, i've been going about as jardin at CoE :). ...

jardin

Elwen

06-26-2003, 10:49 PM

Uhmm, jardin.... in the light of what susanna said about bullying just a few posts up I should think your last paragraph isn't exactly tactful about this :eek: Do you really think this issue is warrants a 'hahaha'?

Give that we have been discussing this for about half a page I am wondering whether you couldn't be a little more thoughtful about this issue (and considerate about the not inconsiderable number of people who are or were on the receiving end of such 'pestering')?

:(

Elwen

Colli

06-26-2003, 11:01 PM

Number one, we have a movies forum to discuss the cast members, you know. ;) ;)

Welcome to all the new and not-so-new members!!!!! :hug:

AldureLusiha, I think you're right about Petunia, for more of my thoughts see the "Dursleys" thread. :)

About Sirius' death being "needed" or not, we can't really judge that until we read books 6 and 7, can we? Plus Rowling said it WAS necessary when her husband just told her to let him live.

About bullying.. I don't know. I wasn't the most liked kid in grade school, and I suffered a lot of teasing, but I never was really bullied, like the kind in OotP, or the kind you see on tv. It just isn't really common in this area. Thankfully. But I'm surprised 15-year olds would still act that way, most of my problems stopped when I was 14 or so. But I don't blame poor Severus at all. :( I just wish he and Harry would have that "moment."

jesuisalleeaujardin

06-27-2003, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by Elwen
Uhmm, jardin.... in the light of what susanna said about bullying just a few posts up I should think your last paragraph isn't exactly tactful about this :eek: Do you really think this issue is warrants a 'hahaha'?

Give that we have been discussing this for about half a page I am wondering whether you couldn't be a little more thoughtful about this issue (and considerate about the not inconsiderable number of people who are or were on the receiving end of such 'pestering')? :(

Elwen

don't really know what happed to her after i saw her again that summer. that's the last time i saw her coz, on short notice, my family and i moved away from that city since. but i remember that while my friends taunted, she didn't even respond half the time, so we let her be. we weren't physical like james _ we wouldn't dare. we had too many teachers looking on. her revenge was to ignore us. :)

i think i've grown a thick skin since starting working _ i barely get offended about anything, and i think the others feel the same way too. :eek: but thanks for checking, elwen :).

but just so you all know... those who've been on the receiving end _ the taunts are usually just games. they're never meant to be serious. when we taunted, it was usually to show the receiver the error of their ways, according to our standards. :) you're always more than welcome to fight back. it's embarrasing, but i think we deserved all the stony looks and silent treatments. our class was never physical with anyone, but if anyone came running at us with a baseball bat, i for one would know exactly why.

a teacher always resolved things. if parents came in the way, well _ there's an unsolvable crime, coz now it's between one family's word against another, and that's never welcome. but teachers were usually the most effective peacemakers in my day. i think the taunts stopped at 12 or 13 for me. :) ya, 15 is kinna extreme, actually _ 15 was a time for gossip ripping, much worse and dangerous, if you ask me. ...

as for sirius being killed, ah well _ like i said, it's a great post-sept. 11 book. while running errands this morning, i thought of how lucky harry is that he's got someone to mourn about like that _ horrible it is to think that way.

but part of him realized, even as he fought to break free from lupin, that sirius had never kept him from waiting before ... sirius had risked everything, always, to see harry, to help him... if sirius was not reappearing out of that archway when harry was yelling for him as though his life depended on it, the only possible explanation was that he could not come back... that he really was... page 808. (no, sirius was not page 808! i got that from page 808! gosh. ... ;) )

and then later on he meets luna lovegood who's also lost someone close to her, and things are somehow lighter. :)

jardin

Mirdan

06-27-2003, 02:02 AM

i've been on the receiving end of these so-called not-so-serious taunts. and i didn't like it. no matter if these taunts were meant to be light-hearted, i saw no humor in them since people had a good laugh at my expense. as far as age goes, i'm afraid that some people never seem to grow out of them. i've even been bullied by one of my math teachers in high school, so that should say something. specifics aside, no one should ever feel they have the right to put down others, at all. that is one thing i can never understand, the need for a person to put down others, but for the sake of what? to criticize for the betterment of our well-being? right. call me soft, but i don't see how bullying is suppose to help any of us. it may help us grow a thicker skin, but at what cost? it obviously varies from one person to another, but the psychological ramifications could ruin someone's life in the long run. i can truly see why Snape hated James and Sirius. to be humiliated in front of everyone as seen in the Pensieve was something even i have a hard time forgetting. it was uncalled for and irrational.

tauntings leave a mark on everyone, whether you're the one doing the taunting or the one receiving it. it's not a visible scar, but it's always going to haunt those involved in it, especially those who were victims of it :(

susanna

06-27-2003, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by jesuisalleeaujardin

[color=orange]don't really know what happed to her after i saw her again that summer. that's the last time i saw her coz, on short notice, my family and i moved away from that city since. but i remember that while my friends taunted, she didn't even respond half the time, so we let her be. we weren't physical like james _ we wouldn't dare. we had too many teachers looking on. her revenge was to ignore us. :)
That's not revenge. That's the last resort of someone who is powerless. Trying to appear dead. "Pretend you don't notice" - one of the advice those on the receiving end get from adults who feel powerless.
Originally posted by jesuisalleeaujardin

i think i've grown a thick skin since starting working _ i barely get offended about anything, and i think the others feel the same way too. :eek: but thanks for checking, elwen :).
Are you sure a thick skin is a good thing? It prevents you from feeling - and maybe not only the taunts but as well the kind thoughts. Originally posted by jesuisalleeaujardin

but just so you all know... those who've been on the receiving end _ the taunts are usually just games. they're never meant to be serious. when we taunted, it was usually to show the receiver the error of their ways, according to our standards. :) you're always more than welcome to fight back. it's embarrasing, but i think we deserved all the stony looks and silent treatments. our class was never physical with anyone, but if anyone came running at us with a baseball bat, i for one would know exactly why.
I agree to Mirdan: This is not helpful. Being cruel "just as a game" is no excuse at all, it's not helpful either. What about: We torture you, but it's only a game? I think it should be the bullies who should try to develop some empathy for the victims, not the other way round. Victims are busy trying to understand the bullies, just in order to find a way to make them stop.

And why do you think that you have the right to show someone the error of their ways? Why do you think you know the right way? Why do you think you have the right to bully one who does not follow your way?

Princess Aurora

06-27-2003, 04:16 AM

Erm, it appears I've stumbled upon this thread as it's beginning to take a different turn, but I finally finished the book today (after giving up my valiant attempt at reading slowly so as to enjoy it longer ;)) and Colli practically forced me to post here. :D After I finished the book, I came online, and IMed her almost straight away, it went something like this:
PA: omg
Colli: did you finish?
PA: just now :eek:
Colli: awww
Colli: *hugs*
PA: *cries*

I've not had time to read the whole thread, but I wanted to post my two cents...

I assume we don't have to use spoiler boxes anymore?

Anywho, where to start...

The Death - I can't believe she took Sirius. :( He was fast becoming a favorite character of mine, and I'd always secretly hoped like Harry that they'd be able to live together. I was also quite shocked about the abruptness of it.. One minute I was sitting there, laughing as Sirius mocked Bellatrix, and then he was gone and all I could think was "WHAAAAAAAAA?"

So I didn't get sad immediately because there was still so much going on and it hadn't sunk in yet, just like I imagine it'd be if it were real life. But when Dumbledore talked about Harry having lost his father and mother, and now the closest thing he'd ever known to a real parent... oh dear. I cried, and did so many more times at intervals throughout... including when Harry finds the mirror. :( Reminders of the person always get me.

Also, he's not coming back. Plus, as much as I'd love to see him back, as well as James and Lily, I rather hope they don't, because that'd make their deaths too trivial, IMO.

Dumbledore - was sad that he didn't have as much page time throughout the whole book, since his moments with Harry are some of my favorite in the past books. But he made up for it with his speech! Not so much the prophecy part, but when he talked about how much he had come to care for Harry, even against his will... *sniff*! And then of course the One Tear.

Angsty Harry - unnerved me a little in the beginning, but I realized he's definitely entitled to it... and his reaction to the death was, IMO, perfect. He didn't want to believe it at first, would do anything not to cement its truthfulness, and then he blamed himself, blamed anyone he could, and he raged. Very natural emotions, I think.

McGonagall - brilliant. Especially when she jumped up and said she's help Harry become an Auror if it was the last thing she did! Loved that. And her reaction to Umbridge. Mwahaha.

Speaking of... Umbridge - JK is stellar at making you completely LOATHE a character in a book. And the description of her "personality like poisoned honey" on the book jacket was dead on. Ugh, that hem hem made me want to rip out her throat. :eek: :D

Fred and George - Holy man, I love these two. I thought one of them would kick the bucket this time around, because that'd have been so tragically sad.. can you imagine the other one.. left alone? Okay, but that didn't happen, so moving right along. I've adored their comic relief since book one, it's brilliant, I always find myself laughing out loud. They're perfect. And their big shabang as they left was awesome. After they left, JK says that people in the school seemed to be vying for the now-vacant title of school troublemaker or whatever... seemed very sad to me, because I'll miss F&G in the books now, they were supreme troublemakers and IMO no one can replace them.

And finally, The Prophecy - I must say I was not much impressed with the "big revelation", although that probably has even more to do with the fact that when I first read the prophecy, I thought it said something like "neither can live if the other is not alive"... so I thought, if Voldy baby dies, then Harry does too. Which, you have to admit, would have made it sooo much more interesting, and more of a blow for Harry. But I'm kinda glad it didn't turn out that way after all. :D

I'm sure there was more, but I think I've said enough to satiate myself for now.

Elwen

06-27-2003, 05:59 AM

PA,

That is a great review. :)
and a big hug from me, too.....

For some reason I find you really sum up the reaction to the Death by your "WHAAAAAAAAA?"

I can't say why but that sums it up. I guess because it sums up the mixture of shock, surprise and 'what has just happened here?!!'

I am just thinking back of Umbridghe here. Was I the only one who was completely freaked out by the kitten theme of the decorations in her office? That is so freakish. I wonder whether the kittens move (as photographs do).

Poisened honey indeed.

I keep thinking what a good observer JKR is.

Those scenes in class where she forces the pupils to have their hand in the air when they speak. And every time they try to talk back she just ignores them and lets someone else speak. The kids handle it well by throwing their colleague's argument back at her - but she is the epitome of a teacher who abuses power.

And the interesting thing is that she is a caricature, but she isn't too exaggerated so it remains scary and recogniseable.

And her quill for lines at detention made my blood run cold. I still can't believe that Harry didn't tell anyone. I know that this makes sense in the book and probably it also makes sense for someone his age.

I always try to imagine what it must be like not to be able to go home to your parents and tell them!
Harry often decides not to tell anyone about worrying things although he sort of knows he should - that of course makes sense for the story - but it also makes me sad for Harry. After all, he grew up being used to not telling anyone about worries and so on...

Elwen

Master Samwise

06-27-2003, 08:13 AM

The kittens did move! :D I remember Harry at one point going into the office, refusing to look at her, and seeing the kittens bouncing about all over the plates.

But that detention punishment: damn, it was scary. It was so malevolent, so unexpected. Was there a reference at one point to it writing something on his forehead? And then Harry sees another pupil getting the same treatment, so it wasn't just for him! Besides the horror however of that particular scene, it contrasts really well with Dumbledore - he wouldn't let Umbridge shake Marietta, or even touch her, Dolores happily let the pupils draw blood.

Very very sinister.

And what do you think of Neville? One of the most touching moments, for me, was him pocketing the bubblegum wrapper his mother gave him in hospital. That was a tough chapter to read...

Ministry of secrets: how complex is that? Why do we not see Ron getting his brain meddled with? I know she needed Harry and Neville to be side by side, but to see Ron take the fall in the defence of Harry would have been a pleasant touch. Did anyone think Moody was dead when they read he was lieing on the ground, bleeding from his head?

And Fawkes, :D I love Fawkes, just like Sirius. If I had to have anything from the entire world of Harry Potter, it'd be that Phoenix. Theres bigger and better things in store for him.

Gary Oldman for Sirius though...he'd do in a pinch, but he's spoilt for me, by having done too many bad guy roles...

One last chapter to read...

Pilgrim Grey

06-27-2003, 09:00 AM

I thought McGonagall was gonna die when she was hit with all those spells. I'm not sure whether it was Maggie Smith in the movie or just how McGonagall was written in this book (or a combination of both), but I really liked how she was portrayed.

I don't really get the prophecy though, it says that only one of them can live, but they're both alive right then! I get that it's supposed to mean that one of them will kill the other, but I think that JKR could've written it better.

And on the prophecy, I think it kinda spoiled the suspense of whether or not Harry will die at the end of the 7th book. Obviously Harry can't die now, because as the books are written from his perspective (we only hear what he's thinking etc) he would have to die at the very end, and if he died Voldy would live, and we would never have a conclusion. So unless Voldy is killed in book 6 and Harry gets killed some other way (which would be a bit anti-climactic IMO) I don't see Harry dying. Hmm, maybe he gets crucio-ed into madness by the Death Eaters like the Longbottom's... that'd be a striking image to end the series on, the three of them all lying in Mungo's, with NEville watching over his parents and Ron, Hermione and Dumbledore watching over Harry...

alqua

06-27-2003, 09:23 AM

But the Phropecy still doesn't rule out that someone else could kill Harry. I can quite easily see it happening so that Harry battles Voldemort, defeats him, drops his guard for a while right after the battle and gets hit with an Avada Kedavra coming from a desperate Death Eater trying to avenge their Master.

Elwen

06-27-2003, 09:46 AM

Samwise -thatnks for bringing up that scene in the hospital. Heart-wrenching to see Neville with his parents. And his reaction to being seen by his friends was moving as well.

Poor Neville.

I was very happy to see his reaction to Draco's mockery....

I had the feeling that Draco didn't quite know what he had actually done - but do you reckon he might know about Neville's parents? :eek:

Elwen

Colli

06-27-2003, 11:56 AM

Hey PA! :hug:

The absolutely hilarious thing is that I don't think we'd talked for weeks--if not months-- before that conversation. ;) Ah.. Harry Potter.

Excellent comments.. and "WHAAAAAA" is absolutely right. :) *sniff* :(

Lady Haleth

06-27-2003, 01:22 PM

Speaking of Neville, I kept getting the feeling that his plant would somehow become relevant. Maybe when it matures it can be used as an antidote to cure his parents?

Pengi

06-27-2003, 01:56 PM

Oh yes, Neville's plant - to be honest, I thought it was going to turn out like the thing that killed Bole (did a plant kill Bole? I don't have the book with me.) and try and strangle Neville. :p But that antidote idea is a great one. It'd be wonderful for Neville to be able to talk to his parents again.

Halbarad

06-27-2003, 01:59 PM

Moxie, thanks, good explanation that Harry interrupted Mrs. Weasley before she envisioned a wounded Ginny.

I suppose the family tree will remain there for future use, although now who remains to interpret the burnouts? Kreacher?

Nice Webcast of JKR at Albert Hall... google brought it right up (search
on Royal Albert Hall Potter).

She explains that you don't see thestrals until a death really penetrates your consciousness, so Harry's parents deaths did not do prior to Cedric's.

all the best, Halbarad

Princess Aurora

06-27-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Colli
The absolutely hilarious thing is that I don't think we'd talked for weeks--if not months-- before that conversation. ;) Ah.. Harry Potter.
Hehe, indeed... nothing brings people together like good ol' Harry... :D
Originally posted by Pilgrim Grey
I don't really get the prophecy though, it says that only one of them can live, but they're both alive right then! I get that it's supposed to mean that one of them will kill the other, but I think that JKR could've written it better.
I took it to mean that neither can really live while the other survives... for example, Harry can't live a normal life while Mr. V is around, what with the strange dreams, the scar, not to mention all the people that are after him. Similarly, Voldy will not rest until Harry is dead.

Also, I agree with you on the idea of how observant JKR is, Elwen. She really knows what she's writing about, and makes the school environment and the student lives seem so realistic, even in such a fantastical setting.

EDIT: A question - I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread already, and I don't think they covered it in the book... what do you think will happen with the "publicity" of Sirius' death in the general wizarding world? Will the Ministry and others finally see that he was not a Death Eater, and instead show his death as heroic? It seems like they have to mention the fact that one of the most wanted "criminals" in their world is now dead, so do you think everyone will realize he was actually a good guy?

Kristin

06-27-2003, 11:16 PM

It's really hard for me to figure out what I think of OotP right now, given that I feel so negative. I just can't reconcile myself to Sirius' death. (He has been my *favorite* character since PoA.) :( I thought the book was great until the end, but I'm having a hard time forgiving JKR at the moment.

Some thoughts:

Did anybody notice this? -- They say that James Potter wasn't a prefect. But in PS/SS Hagrid tells Harry that James and Lily were Head Boy and Girl. :confused: Doesn't make sense to me.

Also, how did Harry get the Marauders' Map back?

D.A. -- Very cool. I really admire Harry's talent.

Ron/Quidditch -- I'm glad Ron redeemed himself. I would've been mad if he continued to be a bad player.

Dolores Umbridge -- Makes Snape seem like Harry's best friend. Haha. :p What a twisted woman! :mad:

Remus Lupin -- Not nearly enough of him.

Ginny -- I never liked her that much before (not that I disliked her, I just didn't care much). Now, she's so cool! :cool:

Neville -- I'm so proud of him. He's not just a characature anymore. He's showing real progress. I thought it was awesome how well he did in D.A.

Fred/George -- Excellent! :notworthy What are we going to do without them in the next books?

McGonagall -- I've been liking her more each book. And she's even better in this one. Love how she stands up to Umbridge.

Sprout/Flitwick -- Love how they stand up to Umbridge, too. 'Specially Flitwick! It's like the teachers vs. Lockhart atmosphere only better!

Order of the Phoenix -- Too cool! I loved the new characters.

Room of Requirement -- I love this! Very imaginative on JKR's part! :)

The Prophecy -- Didn't do it for me. It seemed very anticlimactic. Voldy wants to kill Harry because it was prophesied that Harry would kill him? There's just not much to it. What about the whole Lily's eyes thing? Sure, I can understand why V would want to kill H because of the prophecy. But it's not very interesting. And I agree that the whole "chosen one" concept is a bit overdone.

The Death -- No! I'm not dealing well with this one. :( I was crying in the break room at work! It's too cruel! Sirius never got to have his life back! Harry never got to have much of a relationship with Sirius.

Snape -- I do feel sorry for him (especially the pensieve scene). But that doesn't excuse his behavior toward Harry. He did the good-guy thing quite well in this book, though. But the transcript from the event has JKR saying we shouldn't think he's too nice and should keep an eye on him. Hmm...

Funniest moment -- F/G notwithstanding, it has to be: "Better wizards than you have lost buttocks!" "Who do you know who's lost a buttock?" :rotfl:

Elwen

06-28-2003, 04:10 AM

Kristin, :hug:

You are definitely not alone in your grief for Sirius... :(

Interesting observations! Especially the one about james Potter not being prefect.... hmmmmmmmm ... very odd indeed! But we don't know whether you have to be prefect to be head boy/girl, do we? Who knows perhaps something happened to Lupin so Potter got the top job? :confused:

It is certainly weird.

Am I the only one who felt that the 'room of requirement' was like something out of the Matrix? When it appeared equipped with everything I imagined it a bit like the room that Neo and Morpeus use for practice in the original Matrix :D

It took me a long time to work this out but yes, to me that room looks vaguely Asian, with this particular lighting :D

It is really weird how these influences work. :)

Elwen

Tiger Louie

06-28-2003, 09:36 AM

Just been reading the entire thread - a marathon already!

I've been thinking a lot about the Snape thing, and one reason for his behaviour which no-one has touched on yet is the fact that Snape is actually playing a double game.

Only Dumbledore and a few others know that Snape is not a dark wizard. Given the stuff he's going off and doing for Dumbledore is dangerous (as we are told in GoF) he would be very foolish to be anything other than very nasty to both Harry and Neville (prophesy, and parentage considerations here), particularly in the presence of the offspring of so many death eaters still at large, don't you think?

In addition Snape has obviously been scarred to a great depth by his appalling childhood experiences both at home and at school. If you don't get help dealing with these things - they can leave you crippled for life. From the snapshot we get of his homelife, doesn't look like he could talk to his parents about being bullied does it? At school if he's being bullied he's just going to 'shut down' and certainly won't talk about what's going on at home - for reasons of shame, loyalty, fear...

Snape can't get beyond his emotions as a child - I feel like he's an unexploded bomb around the place, and I'm convinced that he is going to become more and more significant. We need more back story on him, that's for sure!

I'll doubtless have more to add on all the other characters, and maybe more on Snape - but I want to go and think it out before I post.

cheers

Tiger

Elwen

06-28-2003, 09:43 AM

:clap:

Tiger, great that you came over to join us!! :)

That is a great observation about Snape - that he has to appear evil to keep his disguise.... A sad and shocking notion, I suppose... but perhaps the whole thing has become a habit as well.

Of course, as someone who managed to betray the Dark Lord he must be so used to control his emotions and reactions (I wonder how much Alan Rickman was told of this - JKR apparently did tell some of the actors more about their characters than was in the books so far) - I find the film Snape fits that image so well!

There is just one thing: as far as I understand Voldemort's remarks about absent Death Eaters in GoF he knows that Snape has left them for ever, as a traitor.

So who is Snape still trying to fool?

And Tiger, I look forward to further views from you! :) )

Elwen

Moxie

06-28-2003, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Elwen
That is a great observation about Snape - that he has to appear evil to keep his disguise... who is Snape still trying to fool?

Voldemort didn't mention the coward or the traitor by name, so it's possible the Death Eaters present don't know who he was talking about. Perhaps if Snape is still spying, it's by what hackers used to call "social engineering" - trying to trick information out of Death Eater parents and/or their equally nasty children in the course of seemingly-normal business conversations. His students and their parents would be much more inclined to talk to a teacher who appeared to have some degree of sympathy for their cause, and the Malfoys are the most promising source of information due to Lucius' closeness to Voldemort and relative openness about it with his son (who doesn't always know when to shut up).

Pilgrim Grey

06-28-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Elwen
Interesting observations! Especially the one about james Potter not being prefect.... hmmmmmmmm ... very odd indeed! But we don't know whether you have to be prefect to be head boy/girl, do we? Who knows perhaps something happened to Lupin so Potter got the top job? :confused:
Elwen
Doesn't Percy say something like this in his letter to Ron? I daon't have my book with me (loaned it to a mate) but I'm pretty sure he says something like "this is the path to becoming head boy"... so unless something actually DID happen to Lupin, I can't see how James could've got Head Boy (hem hem JK! After all those months going over the book so we didn't tear it to pieces and find bloopers, we've still been able to find quite a few!)

Tiger Louie

06-28-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Elwen

There is just one thing: as far as I understand Voldemort's remarks about absent Death Eaters in GoF he knows that Snape has left them for ever, as a traitor.

So who is Snape still trying to fool?

I haven't yet squared the circle on Snape - but as only Voldemort knows the identities of all the death eaters (some of the DE's do know each other but not all - otherwise why masked when they gather together?), Snape does go among the other death eaters presumably. If the other death eathers all know each other there is no way that Snape would be safe, even as a teacher at Hogwarts.

At the same time, we do know that Hogwarts is a safe-haven for those rejected by their own kind (latest example Firenze, but also Hagrid and Lupin in the past) - whether that's just because of Dumbledore or not we can only speculate at the moment.

JKR has a back story about the death eaters (interview shown recently on BBC in UK) and I want to read it!!!

Tiger

Lady Haleth

06-28-2003, 11:15 AM

Interesting speculation that Snape may be acting as a double agent, trying to ferret ( :LOL: ) information out of Draco. I find it hard to believe that Voldemort wouldn't have told Lucius that Snape had betrayed them, but that seems to be the case (unless in fact, Snape is still working for the Dark Side as a triple agent :rolleyes: ). Have we ever had a scene where Snape and Lucius have interacted?

Pippin

06-28-2003, 01:01 PM

To put it very mildly, it´s KILLING me that we learn so little about what Snape is really doing at the moment.

Excellent thoughts everyone. I´m dying to talk more about Snape but doesn´t that guy deserve his own thread for character discussions? Shall we make one to discuss this further over there? :)

EDIT to say, there is a Snape character discussion thread in the void, here it is: Snape thread. (http://www.muggleinformer.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=692&highlight=Snape) I´m dragging it up again and taking some of your comments there if I may.

by Elwen
Am I the only one who felt that the 'room of requirement' was like something out of the Matrix? Erm, yes, you must be. No idea where you got that from. :D

"Free your mind, Harry." :eek: :D

There was more out of the Matrix, Elwen, if you want to see it. The brains in the vat, for example. A scary image of a philosophical idea that is also at the roots of the “Matrix” concept. (Of course, we don´t know what the brain in the tank meant in OotP, but there must be some reason for this image.)

I won´t give you a list of all my likes and dislikes, but a list of my questions about OotP. There are many, more than I ever had about another HP book before. Well, every book raised questions that “would be answered later” but this one raises questions that make me feel I don´t understand the book.

1. The veil.

What was that about? How exactly did Sirius die? Where is his body?

2. The prophecy.

Since when has Dumbledore believed so much in prophecies and fate and Chosen Ones? “It´s our choices, far more than our abilities, that make us who we are”, I wanted to remind him! I really dislike the notion that the books will end like they will because it was Harry´s fate. It just doesn´t fit in with what JKR (through Dumbledore) has been telling and teching us so far what life is about!

3. So what exactly has turned Harry´s world upside down, like the text on the back cover promised? The fact that his parents and his hero Sirius weren´t flawless? That Dumbledore could make mistakes? I mean that´s surely a part of growing up but turning the world upside down, I´m not sure.

4. Voldemort.

So what´s he doing, entering Harry´s mind? How is he doing it? Is this different to Giny´s being “possessed” by him back in CoS? If yes, what is it? What´s the link between the two? Won´t Voldemort keep giving Harry visions and hallucinations now to drive him mad, now he knows he can? Or will Harry be able to look into Voldemort´s mind at some point?

5. Umbridge

Much as I loathe that old hag I really want to know Umbridge´s motives for acting like she did. I mean her general behaviour as High Inquisitor was probably in accordance with the Ministry´s aims (or maybe she just succeeded bullying Fudge into signing everything she suggested), but setting the Dementors on him she tried to kill Harry! Or worse! Why?

Was she working for Voldemort? Of her own free will, or under the Imperius curse? Or did she really have Fudge´s best interests (and her career along with it) at heart? Or was she working towards some yet unknown end of her own

Iceray

06-28-2003, 04:09 PM

Hi, I'm new here. :)

I was thinking about the detention and couldn't help wondering if this might have an aftermath in the next book, because

think about all the blood Umbrigde must have collected (on the parchments)! I bet that a person's blood is an essential ingredient for a lot of potions and so on. If I were Harry, I'd feel uneasy about such a person having a store of my blood! :eek: If it turns out she was working for Voldemort, don't you think they're going to use this for a nasty surprise in one of the next books?

Colli

06-28-2003, 08:14 PM

Hey Iceray! :wave:

Yeah, I wondered about Umbridge and her lovely idea of detentions.. and whether or not she had some sick ulterior motive. The blood thing is an interesting point... after Harry had what? 3 or 4 weeks of detention, plus Lee Jordan.. who knows. ::shudder::

Elwen, things are reminding me of the Matrix, but not the room. :D

I think it was here (maybe? I went to post in the Snape thread first) someone mentioned Dumbledore and fate... and how they didn't like Book 7 being determined by fate. But who says that Harry is going to fulfill the prophecy? Rowling wouldn't have given us that information if it was going to determine, one way or another, the end of the story. I'm interested to see what twists she ends up taking. :)

Irys

06-28-2003, 11:37 PM

Has anyone yet thought about the access numbers for the Ministry of Magic?

6-24-42, I believe. Could that perhaps be Voldy's birthdate? It also equals 666, which would corespond well with Voldemort.

Colli

06-28-2003, 11:50 PM

Hi! :hug: I hadn't thought about the numbers yet... you've got me interested though. :D

That's an interesting observation about the 666 thing, but that couldn't be his birthday.

Chamber of Secrets takes place in 1992, based on all the information we have. And since the chamber had been opened 50 years earlier, it would have been opened in 1942. How late does term usually go at Hogwarts? Is that too late for it to have been the day Moaning Myrtle died? June 24, 1942. But that's silly, she's British. Wouldn't she have written it 24-6-42? Hey, that's a palindrome. :p :D

Wait, tons of WWII stuff was going on then, right? She HAS compared Voldie before to Hitler. :devil: But no major events happened on that day, although the Battle of Midway was a few weeks before. Um, says online that there was a HUGE earthquake in New Zealand that day.

Plus, the answer is 42. ;) :LOL:

(edit) Once again, we're thinking too much. Someone at another HP site pointed out that if you type "M-A-G-I-C" into a phone, you dial 62442. *hits self* Doh.

Misty

06-29-2003, 09:08 AM

Hello, everyone! :wave:

Colli, we both have the Dashwoods in our siggy. Quite a coincidence, eh? :)(EDIT:*sigh*, meaning my CoE siggy...)

Have you any idea why a PM from Pippin which I read and answered back in March chose to appear as a new PM right now when I logged on to the Muggle Informer? :confused:
And why I have my old siggies here and why no avatar?
Sorry if I´m being clueless once more...

I´m currently on page 489 of Phoenix (and Harry and Cho are SO cute!) and there´s something I wonder about:
Harry couldn´t see the Thestrals in any year before. Only people who have seen death can see the Thestrals. He has seen Cedric die, and now he can see them.
But he has seen his parents die, hasn´t he? So why couldn´t he see the animals before? It seems a bit weird to me. :confused:

It´s really sad about Sirius, isn´t it? No wonder JKR cried like mad (as rumour has it, and since I know how attached you can become to characters you´ve invented for a story I believe it is true) when she wrote that...

I grow really agitated when I read about Dolores Umbridge. I keep thinking, "let her set up another educational decree and I´ll - stupefy! Expelliarmus!"

IMO, Umbridge can´t be under the Imperius Curse, would be too obvious.

Amberion

06-29-2003, 09:27 AM

Hi Misty

I think Thestrals can only be seen if the death is actually witnessed. Harry is actually there as Cedric dies, but with his parents he is not old enough to realise what is happening

Hope that does not seem too silly.

I have no idea why that would happen with the PM.

Anyone here a fan of Babylon5?
Umbridge makes me want to do what Londo did for Vir a la Morden.

Put his head on a pike so Vir could wave him goodbye

Elwen

06-29-2003, 10:00 AM

Hi, Misty - good to see you around but beware of this thread as long as you haven't finished because it will relentlessly spoil the story for you!!

Anyway, concerning the Thestrals, we have an answer from JKR herself:
Royal Albert Hall interview (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkr-royalalbert.shtml)

Stephen Fry (gets handed an e-mail):
This is from a Jessica Wells, originally from Australia, now living in London and this is her question: Harry saw his parents die, so why hasn't he been able to see the Thestrals before?

JK Rowling:
At the end of Goblet of Fire, we sent Harry home more depressed than he had ever been leaving Hogwarts. Now I knew that the Thestrals were coming and I can prove that because they are in the book that I produced for comic relief, "Fantastic Beasts and where to find them" These unlucky black winged horses. However if Harry had seen them then and we hadn't explained them then, I thought that would be rather a cheat on the reader in that Harry suddenly sees these monsters but we don't go anywhere with them, so to explain to myself I said that you had to have seen the death and allowed it to sink in a little bit before slowly these creatures became solid in front of you, so that's how I am going to sneak past that one.

Concerning your account: At some point the MI and CoE were separated - at this point all existing users were copied over (everyone who signed up after has to register), and their accounts here became separated from the accounts over there from that point. Your account here should mirror what you had over in CoE when this happened (except the post-count, which was put to zero).

I certainly still had my avatar when I came over, and my old sig, all COE settings and the COE pms that were in my mailbox then.

Perhaps that answers it?

Elwen

Athelas

06-29-2003, 12:07 PM

Misty-

At the time they were separated, I didn't have an avatar, so I had to wait until I had 50 posts here to get one over here.

(But I still picked the king!)

Kristin

06-29-2003, 04:02 PM

I don't think Umbridge is in league with Voldemort or under the Imperius curse, etc.

My husband and I were discussing the Ministry of Magic. He said he thought Fudge and Percy were or would be on Voldemort's side. And I said, "The point is that they aren't *bad.* They're just misguided. And everything isn't black or white. They're bad because they're working against the good guys. But they aren't really evil or anything."

Umbridge takes Fudge's misguidedness to a psychotic extreme. She's a dangerous person. But that doesn't mean that she's working *for* the bad side; she's just working *against* the good side.

Scytale

06-29-2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Irys
Has anyone yet thought about the access numbers for the Ministry of Magic?

6-24-42, I believe. Could that perhaps be Voldy's birthdate? It also equals 666, which would corespond well with Voldemort.

I just thought it was JKR taking the mick out of the fundamentalists who think she's a satanist. :p

I'll be dissappointed if Umbridge turned out to be working for Voldemort, it's more interesting having her as a bad guy without having to be on his side.

StarGazr

06-29-2003, 05:33 PM

I really liked this book! It took me exactly one week to read it, and now I'm disappointed that I read it so fast. I don't want to bore anyone with my play-by-play account of what I liked and didn't like, so I'll just hit the highlights.
Harry- could he BE anymore annoying? There was something that just irked me the wrong way with him in this book. Yeah, I get that he's 15 and that he's going through so much... and I live with a brooding 16 year-old boy so I know he was accurately portrayed... but... ack, there was something annoying about him. Yeah, and the same goes for Cho. She was the only reason that I wanted to hug Harry in this whole book. She sooo used him!! I have zero respect for her now, and probably won't ever like her again. :p
Hermione- I have always loved her character, and now I love her even more! She's just so awesome!! You can feel her getting older and maturing through the books. She's become such a strong character and I love that about her... she doesn't need the boys, but she's there for them none the less. And she's so darned smart!!! I loved how she used Rita like that... so awesome.
New Characters- my new favorite character is by far Luna Lovegood! From the moment I first read about her on the Hogwarts Express, I loved her! She's so great! I like Tonks too.. I wish she had been in it more. This books needs more strong females. (not that McGonagall isn't just the most awesome witch ever! She totally earned my respect!)
The Department of Mysteries- I want to have an orb in the Department of Mysteries! I wish someone would have a prophesy about me!
Snape- My favorite character and the biggest disappointment in the book. Don't get my wrong... I really like the stuff on Occlumency and 'Snape's Worst Memory' (OK, didn't LIKE what happened, but it was a good chapter!)... but I felt cheated. I mean, where's the explaination of where he went for Dumbledore. There was a mention of him giving info about the Death Eaters... but no details. I'm hoping for something REALLY good in the next book!
Originally posted by Kristin
My husband and I were discussing the Ministry of Magic. He said he thought Fudge and Percy were or would be on Voldemort's side. And I said, "The point is that they aren't *bad.* They're just misguided. And everything isn't black or white. They're bad because they're working against the good guys. But they aren't really evil or anything."
I TOTALLY agree with this. Percy is so power hungry, that he's willing to go anything to get it, even if it means going against the wishes of those who love him most. We saw the beginnings of this in GoF... I just didn't totally expect it to go this far.. it's kinda sad :(
Misc.- Fred and George are my heros!!... I wish there had been more Lupin in this. He's probably my favorite secondary character... I have much more respect for Neville now... How much do you love Lockhart!?... I hate Umbridge; she reminds me of my high school freshman year science teacher... Harry better get his broom back!
And Finally...
Sirius- *sigh* What do I say... I was upset cuz he was one of my favorites... but I guess I'm holding out for a miracle in that he's still alive. That black veil is mysterious... hence it being in the Department of Mysteries!! ahh.. I didn't feel like the reader was given time to mourn his death. It happened... Harry freaked out, Lupin didn't really grieve (which he SHOULD have)... then it was business (almost) as usual. There was no grieving... *shrugs* I guess I just don't know how to feel about it because it happened so fast.
OK... so that wasn't just the highlights... it was some detail... was I totally boring??? :hug:s to all

one.elven.girl

06-29-2003, 09:30 PM

Oh dear me... there's so much to say, and dificult to say it all without boring you all to tears! Might as well start at the beginning:

Harry was so changed in this book. All the anger he had pent up, of which there was plenty, really started to bubble up. In the previous books, he wasn't placid, by far, but he rarely exploded at people - at his friends. I was acutally a bit surprised at his behavior, although with all he's had to endure, it was perfectly understandable. It also showed thet he really isn't perfect-little-Potter. He too could be unreasonable, misled, overly heroic, a bit mean, and even posessed by evil, wanting to hurt some of the very intrinsically good characters.
I loved that Ron got to beat Harry at some things. They both needed that. And, of sourse, I loved Hermione as much as I always have.
I was pretty bummed that Harry couldn't play Quiddich, and was amazed that there was nothing he could do about, and at how little he protested, and Prof. McGonagall and the twins. Actually, I was surprised at how very little seemed to occur at Hogwarts. The school sorta became a subplot.
I loved Ginny's character developement. she really became GINNY in this book, versus Ron's-little-sister-who-has-a-crush-on-Harry.
Another thing that made me a little upset was the very small amount of Hagrid we saw this time 'round.
I really liked The Order as well, and the new characters that it introduced.
I absolutely loved Snape's Worst Memory... To see tham as fifteen year olds was great. You can't really hate Snape entirely, since he's dupposed;y on the good side, but he's still pretty evil.
I have also decided that the Weasleys are my favorite people ever, especially Fred and George. Percy just made me rather angry (git). But I think he'll be rather apologetic in book six. he was ambitious to a fault. I know that if Dumbledore was Minister of Magic, Percy would have had no problem beliving him.
Umbridge... all that needs to be said is AARGH!!!! What a wretched human being.
Oh... Sirius'death really hit me hard. It saddened me greatly (I sniffled all over my book!). It was for me as though one of the very few people Harry could depend on entirely was Sirius, and now... And Harry was so angry through his grief, which made me even sadder.
Dumbledore was wonderful at the end there. He has such a profound understanding of people's actions, including his own. he lets Harry be angry, realizing that it's what Harry needs. And how he handles everything so calmly, even Voldemort! He really is very wise, although he makes mistakes too, which reminds us that, really, he is only human. However, the Prophecy kinda dissapointed me. I thought it was gonna be something like, "Harry, Voldemort is you father." or, "Harry, to overcome Voldemort, you must become as evil as him." ... Oh well...

I was a bit miffed about some stuff, but all in all I absolutely loved it, of course. As though I could not do so... :eek: :D

Reba

06-29-2003, 11:23 PM

why aren't there any funerals ever? :confused: You'd think there would be some sort of memorial or something!

just wondering...

StarGazr

06-30-2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by Reba
why aren't there any funerals ever? :confused: You'd think there would be some sort of memorial or something!

You know, I thought the same thing!! I mean... the reader doesn't get time to mourn him cuz we're being whisked off somewhere else! And we don't even really go back to it except when Harry goes off on Dumbledore... than all of a sudden they're on the Hogwarts Express then talking to the Dursleys and then it's... over!! :p

Marchwarden

06-30-2003, 01:22 AM

Most of my impressions (about Umbridge, Cho, Angry Harry etc.) would amount to little more than "Me, too"s of earlier posts, but what did people think of:

- New Dumbledore? He used to be the placid, imperturbable, all-knowing old master who set everything in motion behind the scenes. In OotP, we see his fallibility (which he has the good grace to admit) and, more spectacularly, we see him in action. We also see him referring to Lord Voldemort as Tom, which must really have gotten up Riddle's nose.

- Bellatrix Lestrange? Since Harry is destined to fight Voldemort and we have two more books to get through, the Dark Lord needed a lieutenant. I'm guessing that Bellatrix will either be the principal antagonist in book 6, or else will become the nemesis of one of the other heroes so that they can have their climactic battle while Harry squares off with Voldemort. Perhaps Neville or Remus. She's delightfully mad and wicked, and if I recall she killed Sirius, knocked out Tonks and possibly got one or more of the D.A.. She also deflected one of Dumbledore's attacks. That's formidable. Also, she's Sirius' cousin, which adds extra piquancy. Umbridge may be a tyrannical and odious harridan, but Bellatrix is flipping fierce. Incidentally, her name means "warrioress". Of course, she seems to take orders from Lucius (albeit reluctantly), but that is probably because Malfoy is subtler and saner and the Dark Lord knows this. Still, Malfoy is probably not as scary in a fight as Bellatrix.

- The epic running fight scene? Previously, the only long-running action scenes were the quidditch games - even the GoF graveyard scene was mostly suspenseful build-up; the actual duel was fairly brief. JKL doesn't set herself an easy task, either; everyone splitting up and running through a labyrinth while fighting. I found that I had to pay close attention to keep track of who'd gone which way, who was up and who was down, but the hectic style of the passage wasn't irritating; it simply enhanced the atmosphere of chaos which Harry must surely have been feeling.

- The arsenal of magic the D.A. mastered so quickly? It seems only yesterday that the kids had little more than Expelliarmus!, now even Neville is a capable duellist. Harry even used an Unforgiveable Curse! Then again, they had the resources, they had the talent and they had the motivation to learn quickly. Duels used to feel like schoolyard shoving matches; now they're more like pitched battles. Too sudden, too soon? Or just in time?

- Is Draco becoming obsolete? As Harry himself points out, after going toe-to-toe with Voldemort, Bellatrix and the rest of the Death Eaters, Draco and his two teenage goons really aren't very threatening. The D.A. aren't just pulling ahead in individual skill; they're on a war footing, and unlikely to be caught alone or off guard.

- Finally, "Weasley is Our King": cute, or highly annoying?

AldureLusiha

06-30-2003, 01:32 AM

Clearly a lot of people have been discussing the death - it hit all of the fans very hard. One thing that I've noticed though is that throughout the posts is a theme of "how abrupt" it was and also how everyone (besides Harry) seemed not be greatly affected, especially Lupin. However, I feel it important to say that the characters were affected by his death, but we as the readers see the book only through Harry's point of view, who is a 15-year-old boy. Not only do we not have the opportunity to see most of the others, but he is also still quite young. Lupin, for example, on the other hand, is a 40-year-old man... I'm sure that he was devastated, but breaking down sobbing while he was supposed to be protecting Harry from the veil would have been irresponsible. Additionally, characters such as he and Dumbledore whom were in the Order before are much more accustomed to the loss of loved ones. Sudden deaths like that often induce shock too, which I think many of us as readers are feeling as well! Note the many people still holding onto the hope that he will be back (and there's nothing wrong with that hope, either!)

BloodFire

06-30-2003, 01:34 AM

My overall take on book 5? Bloody brilliant! :D

The Death
It wasn't the fact Sirius died, nor Harry's reaction, that choked me up. It was Phineas's reaction. Totally unexpected, because he acted like he could care less about him.

The Prophecies
Note the plural. The Sorting Hat's and Trewlaney's are included. Personally I think Harry AND Neville are going to defeat Moldy Voldy together! VIVA LA TEAMWORK!!

Neville
JKR did a really good job with this, because Neville started becoming more independent and strong at the beginning of the book. He didn't suddenly grow a backbone out of nowhere. She built up his courage, over the years even, if you look back at the other books.

Hagrid
He's got a brother! I'm so happy for him! "WHERE HAGGER, HERMY?" Awwwwwwwwwww!! Totally sweet! And he wasn't around much in CoS because of his unfortunate visit to Askaban, so it's not like Harry's hasn't gone through part of a year without Hagrid, before! Sheesh!

The Twins
Yay! cuddles George

Percy
Quit dissin' him! Now that the Ministry is aknowledging Moldy Voldy, he's sure to admit he was wrong and come back!

Umbridge
What can I say that hasn't already been said. Evil, evil woman.

Overall
Illistrates that evil is in everyone and that nobody's perfect.

And that's all I gots to say on that!

Irys

06-30-2003, 01:44 AM

Arggh, I realized the MAGIC=6-24-42 after I posted. I also wondered about Brit date writing and if the numbers might have been changed in the different editions, like Philosopher/Sorceror. So much for that theory.:o

Kristin

06-30-2003, 01:56 AM

Excellent comments, Marchwarden! :)

The New Dumbledore is very interesting. As JKR adds layers to his character, he becomes more and more fascinating! (I think that's why I always loved Sirius so much, because there were so many aspects to his character. But I digress.) Just a little snippet, but I LOVED the bit when the O.W.L.s examiner said when she tested Dumbledore she saw him do things she'd never seen before. Lovely piece of information with loads of room to imagine just how talented Dumbledore is! :) But it's also nice to see that he does have failings.

Bellatrix makes me almost like Umbridge. She's so evil! But I find it interesting that both Harry and Neville have cause to seek vengeance against her. Will Neville avenge his parents? Will Harry avenge Sirius? Hmmm....

The D.A. *did* learn rather quickly, now that you mention it. And such a big deal is made of Harry producing a corporeal patronus that I found it rather cheapened that talent when suddenly everybody could do them.

Elwen

06-30-2003, 05:12 AM

Wait, I can't remember them being able to do this as well? OK, I read it rather quickly and I suppose I have to read it again...

After discussing this with a friend in RL I am still disturbed about Harry using one of the unforgiveable curses. This is supposed to get you life in Azkaban and no-one even talked to Harry about it?

My RL friend pointed out that he didn't manage to get it right - but he managed enough to get a response out of Bellatrix and she surely was trying to daunt him, too....

How far will Harry go? Will he use the avra kedavra curse?

How much evoil does one have to accept in ordfer to fight evil?

I had the feeling that Bellatrix was rather chuffed about Harry using the cruciatus curse, and I think that this is the point behind it... perhaps she thinks that whoever defeats Voldemort will have to be so evil that it won't make that much of a difference :eek:

I wonder where this will lead...

Elwen

Reba

06-30-2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Kristin
The D.A. *did* learn rather quickly, now that you mention it. And such a big deal is made of Harry producing a corporeal patronus that I found it rather cheapened that talent when suddenly everybody could do them.

I look at that as probably that Hogwarts has been training their witches and wizards too slowly over the generations. Some kids will be more talented than others for various reasons. Harry because his parents were both talented, and because Voldemort gave him a lot of his talents and abilities. Hermione because she studies as hard as she does, and Neville because he's got reason to. Whose to say that earlier students hadn't also figured out how to make a corporeal patrones, just the teachers never found out about it until they took their NEWTS?

Harry's class was also taught a couple of years earlier than usual, in the previous book right? I think Umbridge mentions that the previous professor of Defense Against the Dark Arts went too far too early. Harry had already produced his stag then, I dunno why it was such a surprise in OoTP.

Drastic times call for drastic measures. If the students can produce corporeal patroneses (and I think it was unfair that only Harry was given opportunity for extra credit on that!) then all the better for them, because its quite obvious that if you hang around with Harry Potter, you'll probably need it!

;)

Marchwarden

06-30-2003, 11:47 AM

Teasers I'd noticed upon second reading:

Dumbledore has a brother! And he's considered odd by Moody's standards...are we due to meet the Mycroft Holmes of the wizarding world?

Neville's plant is bound to be significant.

Harry used an Unforgiveable Curse, as has been mentioned. The only witness was Bellatrix, and he proved himself insufficiently evil to pull it off properly, but you have to wonder what consequences this may in time entail. And notice which curse he used: Imperious could have forced a surrender, Avada Kedavra probably wouldn't have killed her because Harry's not Dark enough, but might have caused some instant damage or stunning (unlike a Stunning charm, AK is undeflectable except by ancient magic), but Harry used the Torture Curse. Ominous.

With Dumbledore back in charge and a (hopefully) better DADA teacher in place, the D.A. will lose it's original raison d'etre. Will it merely disband, or will it evolve into something else?

AldureLusiha

06-30-2003, 01:08 PM

Regarding the Patronus Charm, not only the gravity of the situation should be taken into account but also the age difference. Harry was only in the beginning of his third year when he produced the charm (even partially) with Professor Lupin. His young age was the most surprising aspect of him being able to produce it. Most of the kids in D.A. are now in their 5th year (and some like Cho in their 6th). Two years can be alot when you're in school. Granted, Ginny and Luna are 4th-years, but I'm not sure that it even stated that all of the kids produced a full Patronus (not just a silvery cloud).

susanna

06-30-2003, 01:31 PM

My copy of PoA is still missing, but as far as I remember the problem was not to produce a patronus, but to keep it when there was a Dementor of a Boggart around.

Elwen

06-30-2003, 01:44 PM

I think this is part of the problem.... but it seems hard in any case to get this right!

I just realise just how interested Umbridge was in this fact (wasn't it her asking about it at the 'trial' ?)

I am sure she was angry that Harry could deflect the dementors she had sent. Is that her main reason to 'dumb down' teaching at Hogwarts?

Or perhaps I am just very slow to notice something that's obvious!

Elwen

Kristin

06-30-2003, 07:25 PM

It was Amelia Bones who was interested in Harry's patronus. Umbridge is the one who scoffed at Dumbledore's insinuation that the dementors attacked on ministry orders.

This bit from the Royal Albert Hall interview has me all a-quiver with anticipation:
I had to put in some things because of what's coming in 6 and 7 and I didn't want anyone to say to me "what a cheat; you never gave us clues." Because if I didn't mention certain things that happen in Order of the Phoenix I think you could have said to me "well you sprang that on us" whereas I want you to be able to get them if you've got your wits about you. There are a few surprises coming.
I wonder what she's referring to.... :)

Princess Aurora

06-30-2003, 07:50 PM

On the Patronus:

1. It only mentioned Hermione (the smarty-pants) and Cho (the 6th year) being able to produce corporeal patronuses.

2. Harry mentions that it's a whole different story to conjure one when you're in a real danger situation, such as when a dementor is around. On a side note, Cho calls him a "killjoy" when he says this. ;)

Marchwarden

06-30-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Princess Aurora

2. Harry mentions that it's a whole different story to conjure one when you're in a real danger situation, such as when a dementor is around. On a side note, Cho calls him a "killjoy" when he says this. ;)

Some nerve, coming from the human faucet...

jesuisalleeaujardin

07-01-2003, 01:36 AM

i haven't yet read everything in this thread, but i just want to backtrack a bit to the responses regarding my stint as a teenage bully. c'mon, y'alls are thinkin bout it already _ let's get it out in the open. :)

susanna totally ignored my bit about the teachers, or about what someone else wrote about bullies not really knowing how their actions affect their victims. mirdan just went off and remembered her angst. thanks for your thoughts. but i think it would be best to go back to the people who attacked you in the first place rather than spilling it all on me, who had nothing to do with it, or on an anonymous thread, in front of hundreds of anonymous young people. :)

i'll stop right there. i have my own share of unforgivable moments; don't need to add to those any more. :)

marchwarden _ you mentioned that the DA might dissolve with the hiring of a new DADA teacher _ i hope not! :) and i hope LUPIN will come to the rescue! :clap:

and, ya, totally loved the bit about harry using the cruiactus (sp?! haha) curse, but no one knowing about it but bellatrix. i have to reread the book again, but i think he stopped for a moment before firing off the curse? as if to reconsider? coz i get the impression that in wizarding world even to attempt that curse on a human is equivalent to attempted murder _ and to want to kill someone is, um, bad, no matter if we think they deserve it. hm! it raises questions about the death penalty to me! haha _ anyways _ i need to stop plugging in real life to books. i think i should do it the other way around! :p

jardin

Telchar II

07-01-2003, 02:06 AM

First, a question: why did Lupin think that nobody else knew what Harry's Patronus was when Harry produced it at the Quidditch match and sent it flying towards the Malfoy-Goyle-Crabbe "dementor"? It was definitely corporeal at that point, b/c Lupin is somewhat stunned (to see that it's Prongs) and says "that was some Patronus." Hundreds of people were watching.

Second, note that one of the twins says that Ginny is getting really powerful: "Size is no guarantee of power. Look at Ginny." And Harry asks what the twin means, and the twin says "Have you ever been at the receiving end of one of her [bat-something] hexes?"

Third, Neville never had his own wand; he was always using his father's. Presumably he will get his own wand soon, and become a much better wizard as a result.

Fourth, is it possible that Snape's worst memory is a planted memory? In other words, a memory modification? Now why would that be, you ask? Well, perhaps because Dumbledore or Lilly (her wand was good for charms, and memory work is a charm) wanted it to seem to all Occlumens who looked into Snape's mind that Snape had very good reasons to dislike James (and therefore Harry). Snape might even have consented to this memory modification. It gives him an excellent motivation to hate Harry, which is a good cover for all the stuff he's doing for the Order -- some of which we assume is double-agent work.

Telchar II

07-01-2003, 02:50 AM

Perhaps I'm in denial -- I really like Sirius -- but I think there's a lot more going on in his death scene than meets the eye. In this I am partly inspired by "The Ultimate Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter," ostensibly written by Galadriel Waters and Mithrandir somebody-or-other, and put out by Wizarding World Press. That book has a wild speculation regarding books 1-4 (and I disagree with it). But my idea is only an imitation of their idea.

Anyway, here goes. As usual, I'm operating away from my book, so bear with me -- and correct me -- on the text if I garble it slightly. And I'm not sure whether I believe this idea myself. But I think it's a distinct possibility.

As the "Ultimate Guide" shows, JKR is excellent at establishing themes up front. Perhaps the first theme that she gives us in OOP is something left over from GoF: that we cannot assume that anyone is who he or she seems to be. We know that Polyjuice Potion is one means of impersonation. So JKR has Moody -- Polyjuice's biggest victim -- immediately wonder, on seeing Harry, whether it's the real Harry. But she establishes another means very quickly: Tonks is someone who can change her appearance -- and who, ahem, ahem, was _born_ with that ability. I'll come back to that.

Another point that is developed in a big way is that Sirius is intensely frustrated over not being able to help the Order in a way he would like. He is trying to be Harry's godfather, which means protecting him, and Harry is the one person in the world, as Dumbledore says at the end, that Sirius cares about most. Particularly after Snape and Mrs. Weasley basically taunt him for not having done enough for Harry, Sirius has a lot of time to think about how he might do more. Dumbledore is right to say that someone energetic and smart and talented, like Sirius, doesn't want to stay on the sidelines.

Remember also that Lupin says that James and Sirius were the best in their year [or even the school -- can't remember] at everything they did. This suggests that if Sirius had turned his mind to occlumency, he would have been an even better occlumens than Snape, whom Lupin calls "superb."

We also know that Sirius is rash, as Mrs. Weasley says. If he's going to try and help Harry in a big way, then it's going to be in a way even more daring and dangerous than Snape's.

Note also that somewhere in OOP, Harry notices that Bellatrix Black Lestrange and Sirius Black look alike. And they will doubtless share a lot of common memories from Azkaban.

Lastly, as the final preparatory clue, I think it's logical to assume from the Black family tree that this tapestry is kind of like the Marauder's Map: it has a mind of its own. When people get born, they magically appear on the tapestry, with their birth year filled in. Ditto when people marry into the family. Same when they die -- the death year appears. But note that because Sirius has been blasted off the tapestry, his death year will not show up there. We thus do not really know, except from two or three pages of narration, whether he is dead or not.

Now we need to focus on those pages closely. Note that Sirius first battles with a masked Death Eater, then with Dolohov, and then with Bellatrix. At some point, however, Harry loses sight of Sirius, because Kingsley moves across his field of vision. (And I think there's also the bit with Neville and Lucius and the prophecy getting broken here -- in the gap between Harry's last sight of Sirius before he dies and seeing Sirius actually die. This is, of course, about as big a distraction as JKR could come up with.) There seems to be a gap -- of about 30 seconds, maybe? -- during which Sirius and Bellatrix are having at it. And we don't see what's going on.

My theory, inspired by the Ultimate Guide's focus on Switching Spells, is that Sirius switches his body with Bellatrix's. [Heck, I'll just call her Bella. Although "bellatrix" in Latin means "female warrior," which is of course most suitable.]

Over the long term, this would enable Sirius to go deep cover as a Voldemort lieutenant and bring back even better information than Snape does. It will also enable Sirius, as Bella, to turn against Voldemort at a crucial point in book 6 or 7. It would also enable Sirius to conduct a counterintelligence effort against Kreacher, because Kreacher will talk to the woman he worships. There's no better way to plug that leak, and defend the Order's secrets, than to impersonate the person to whom Kreacher will be passing information.

Over the short term, during the "death scene," however, this switch means that when we see "Sirius" fall through the door, it's actually Bella falling through (and dying, I think we have to understand, although of course we don't know why yet). Whereas everything that "Bella" does is actually Sirius's doing.

This notion explains a lot of things.

First, Sirius's last words -- something like "Come on, is that really the best you can do?" -- strike me as out of character. Sirius is concentrating very seriously on saving Harry. This rather ironic and detached remark sounds much more like the taunting Bella from the Hall of Prophecy.

Second, remember that a wizard or witch can never do spellwork as well with another person's wand. Well, if we assume that this is a mind-wand connection and not a body-wand connection, then Sirius is using Bella's wand now, and Bella Sirius's. This explains why "Sirius"(Bella) mocks "Bella's"(Sirius's) spell with this taunt. It also explains why "Bella"(Sirius) doesn't seem terribly effective during the rest of the conflict in the Ministry of Magic: she (really he) keeps missing Harry, and she can't stop Dumbledore's statue of magical brethren from smothering her on the floor. (Or perhaps "she"/he doesn't _want_ to hurt Harry and _wants_ to be unable to help Voldemort fight Dumbledore.)

Third, it explains why she runs. Did you notice that little business about Sirius and Bella being the only couple -- an oddly intimate term, btw -- who "apparently" do not notice Dumbledore coming in the door? I think "Bella"/Sirius notices quite well, which is why "she"/he runs after killing off "Sirius"/Bella. "Bella"/Sirius will only be an effective spy if "she"/he can escape the Ministry of Magic.

Fourth, it explains why "Bella"/Sirius is almost _teaching_ Harry how to perform the Cruciatus Curse. I thought that was very odd.

Fifth, it explains Phineas Nigellus's reaction: "I don't believe it." Perhaps Phineas Nigellus knows somehow when his great-great-grandson dies -- and hasn't felt it yet.

Four wrapup comments.

First, the key clue will be if in book 6 or 7 we find that Bella's name has also been blasted off the family tree. The cover story will be that Kreacher (or perhaps someone else, somehow -- Lupin, who also lived at #12 Grimmauld Place?) blasted her off because she betrayed the family by killing Sirius. The _truth_ is that Sirius cannot afford to have that tapestry showing Bella as dead. (Another key clue might be if the house shows no signs of thinking that it has some other owner. JKR has been very vague about the wizarding inheritance laws -- we don't know what happened to the Crouch house, for instance.)

Second, the key assumption behind my theory is that Sirius must be an amazing Occlumens. He is going to have to convince Voldemort that he is the real Bella. Sirius will have memories from Azkaban and his own family to help him do this. But it's also possible that he decided to Switch with Bella only during their battle in the Death Chamber, when he realized that she is somewhat mad, that she projects strong emotions all the time, and that her mind therefore can easily be counterfeited, because Voldemort will never want to examine it too closely. However, remember that Sirius thinks risk-taking is fun. He doesn't have to think he will pull this off. He just has to think that he has a fighting chance.

Third, the key red herring: JKR could have been crying tears of laughter as she wrote this "death."

Fourth, the key denouement: Remember that being a Metamorphagus is something you're born with? This may mean it runs in families, and also that it is a "body" power more than a "mind" power. This may mean that Bella is a Metamorphagus too. If so, it is possible that Sirius, in control of Bella's body, will be able to reshape himself at the end of book 7 back into the Sirius we know and love. It would be a real downer, after all, if at the end we learn that Sirius is in Bella's body but can't get out!

Just a speculation. I'm not sure I believe it myself. But the tapestry will be a dead giveaway. Watch that Bellatrix spot!

susanna

07-01-2003, 03:23 AM

Jardin: i don't want to make you feel bad. Only to think a bit.

I think that fifteen year olds are not yet fully responsible at their age. Responsible, but not fully responsible. What made me really angry was the way you wrote about it now. Maybe my reaction was a bit over the top, but it was important for me not to let some things go through without answer. The "it's all a game" thing hurt me - it's not a game for the victim.

Try and look back at your old self in a loving way but not in a way that would excuse everything... like a good mother who loves her child but does not spoil it.

Elwen

07-01-2003, 04:02 AM

Originally posted by Kristin
It was Amelia Bones who was interested in Harry's patronus. Umbridge is the one who scoffed at Dumbledore's insinuation that the dementors attacked on ministry orders.

Doh! My bad. I am rereading now (not yet at the hearing) so perhaps I'll get better at it...

Telchar,

I love your theories ... I am especially interested in your idea that Snape's worst memory was a fake. The problem is just why should not Snape do this himself - perhaps it is easier to fake a memory once it is in the pensieve? That would explain why he made the 'mistake' of letting Harry seeing it. I am still very suspicious of this. There must be something behind Snape not taking Harry with him when he runs off... this is far too important for him to get it wrong.

As for the other theory: I love it as a piece of theory - but I have to admit that now Sirius is dead I'f find it a cheap cop-out if he came back in any shape. If the books want to tell something meaninful about death (as JKR seems to suggest) she should surely not suggest that it is that easy to come back (even if he was never gone, if you know what I mean).

Also: if what you suggest is possible (and the internal logic works wonderfully) pretty much anything could be suggested - who knows what magic can do? We have to draw the line somewhere. But also, if that scheme is possible JKR could think up about 100 others and it becomes impossible to secondguess her moves.

I'll still watch the tapestry, though!!! :D If we get to see the Black house again, that is...

BTW (slow me again)
Am I the only one who is amused by the description of the Aurors' office? A bit like some police headquarters in an American movie or TV series. I loved it :D

Elwen

Telchar II

07-01-2003, 09:35 AM

Thanks, Elwen!

I agree that almost anything is possible, which is why I'm trying to be creative in understanding what may be going on. But we've been given too much crazy magic to think that some of it is not being used in ways that we have not yet noticed. Whether JKR can make it all work is another question.

My theory may explain two more things:

Bellatrix does a lot of damage to Tonks, but Kingsley seems to recover very quickly. Or at least he doesn't need to go to St. Mungo's. Which suggests that it wasn't really Bella who zapped Kingsley.

Also, what's with this "Wotcher!" from Tonks all the time? Is this a real word, usable in this context? If not (and I've never heard it before), could it be short for "watch her"? And "her" is not Tonks herself, but actually Bella? (Not that Tonks realizes this, of course; this is JKR talking.)

Elwen, you're right to say that JKR is setting up some big lessons about death. I don't think my theory requires that Sirius survive book 6 or book 7. In other words, he could still die in another struggle, and for real. I'm not sure whether that makes the lessons work as well or not.

But I'll admit -- I'm basically in denial about Sirius. Very sad.

On Snape, if you modify your own memory (even if that's possible), how do you change your memory of modifying your memory? Or then change your memory of modifying your memory of modifying your memory? See what I mean? You'll always remember changing your own memory, unless some else adjusts your memory for you. Which is why I think that someone else may have planted a few memories in Snape. Perhaps with his permission. Perhaps not.

Lady Haleth

07-01-2003, 10:29 AM

Ow! Ow! Telchar, after reading your theories, my head hurts. (Anyone have Tylenol?) Very interesting ideas to ponder, but I don't see it happening. I do think Sirius's "Is that the best you can do?" or whatever as being very much in character, given Snape's memory. I believe Dumbledore would have known immediately if Sirius and Bella had switched appearances. (But I guess you are saying he did know and would gone along with the charade?) Good idea looking for clues on the tapestry. The veil will definitely be back in books 6 and 7 with more explanation. No, I think Neville will be given the task of avenging his parents, by battling and defeating Bella, while Harry takes on Voldemort. Now I'm going to go think about modifying memories of memory modification. (Ow, you sure you don't have any Tylenol?)

Pippin

07-01-2003, 01:29 PM

Posted by Marchwarden
- The epic running fight scene? Previously, the only long-running action scenes were the quidditch games - even the GoF graveyard scene was mostly suspenseful build-up; the actual duel was fairly brief. JKL doesn't set herself an easy task, either; everyone splitting up and running through a labyrinth while fighting. I found that I had to pay close attention to keep track of who'd gone which way, who was up and who was down, but the hectic style of the passage wasn't irritating; it simply enhanced the atmosphere of chaos which Harry must surely have been feeling.
Yes, that was one epic action scene alright! :notworthy
I haven´t yet tried to figure out whether it´s actually consistent what happens in the scene, I mean the layout of the rooms and who turns up where and when but I trust it is. This scene particularly showed, once again, that JKR writes in this very cinematic way. I love that about her writing style, you´ve really got a movie running through your head. Some people have criticised this as a flaw but I don’t think it is, I just love it. Someone (I think Master Samwise) has also said that Dumbledore´s Flight is “great cinema”, which is true, and for many other scenes in her books as well.

Marchwarden asked whether Draco was becoming obsolete with all the grown up DE to fight. Well, either he will have to grow up very quickly too or Draco will turn into someone (and serve a purpose, in terms of storytelling) nobody quite expects! The possibilities are endless (and I know there are people who believe he´ll go over to the good side, although I personally don´t).

Posted by Elwen
After discussing this with a friend in RL I am still disturbed about Harry using one of the unforgiveable curses. This is supposed to get you life in Azkaban and no-one even talked to Harry about it?
How far will Harry go? Will he use the avra kedavra curse?

How much evil does one have to accept in order to fight evil? Elwen, I do understand your concerns about this. Well, the use of unforgivable curses as a self-defense against a DE in the face of mortal danger must be excused (even by crude Ministry of Magic standards of justice and fair trial :eek: ) but it´s a little worrying that Harry decides to use the Cruciatus curse, of all. I don´t know whether Avada Kedavra works in the same way, whether you can only work it if you actually enjoy the act of killing, but there´s a good chance it doesn’t - but I still can´t see Harry using this one on Voldemort in the end, either. I think Voldemort will meet his end in a different way, in a way that somehow makes it his fault. A little like – don´t read if you haven´t read LOTR yet but are planning to - Gollum falling into the Cracks of Doom all by himself in the end. Involuntary suicide. But I can´t see Harry torturing anyone either. Even less. I think he´ll never be able to work that curse properly, which is a relief.

Posted by Telchar II
Third, Neville never had his own wand; he was always using his father's. Presumably he will get his own wand soon, and become a much better wizard as a result.
Great observation. I also keep thinking that Neville´s forgetfulness is a result of what happened to his family. Maybe he witnessed what Voldemort did to his parents :( and had his memory modified about the worst parts, so he´s still a little forgetful. It would have needed a strong charm to make him forget that.

It´s just occurred to me, if Neville was born in late July like Harry and in the same year, Neville must have been very young when Voldemort destroyed the Longbottom´s family life. OK so maybe he can´t have remembered how it happened even if he was there.

Fourth, is it possible that Snape's worst memory is a planted memory? In other words, a memory modification? Now why would that be, you ask? Well, perhaps because Dumbledore or Lilly wanted it to seem to all Occlumens who looked into Snape's mind that Snape had very good reasons to dislike James (and therefore Harry). Snape might even have consented to this memory modification. It gives him an excellent motivation to hate Harry, which is a good cover for all the stuff he's doing for the Order -- some of which we assume is double-agent work. Hmmm…. I don´t know if that´s how memory modification works. Obviously it wipes your mind blank of the memories you´re supposed to lose, but does it replace them? Is it possible to give someone a memory they never had? I don´t think that´s how it works. I do believe what Harry saw in the Pensieve of Snape´s school days is a real memory (look at Snape´s reaction when he catches Harry – that was real anger). What I do doubt is whether this is really Snape´s *worst* memory ever. That might be only Harry´s interpretation.

Telchar, I find your “major speculation” intriguing, but ´m not convinced. One, JKR has introduced the theme of “not being who you appear to be” but switching spells would have appeared or being talked about if she wants to introduce that. Two, we´d not only have to know that there is such a thing, we´d also have to know a little about how they work – does it only make you look/sound/move like the person you´ve switched into, or do you also feel and think like them? We´d need to know that if we were to interpret Sirius’ and Bella’s actions in the fight scene correctly. Three, wouldn´t it be terribly dangerous to do that sort of thing, switch into a DE´s body in the middle of a raging Auror-against-DE battle, with Dumbledore and Voldemort themselves on the premises? And four, if Sirius knows how to perform that spell, don´t all the other grown-up wizards know it too (at least know it exists), wouldn`t it have been used before for spying on each other and stuff? It would really be an “old joke” for them. Lastly, as you pointed out yourself, how is Sirius to get his body back if Bella is dead?

I don´t find Sirius’ “come on, you can do better than that” out of character at all. He was a reckless guy alright, and had become even more so over the last year trapped in the grim old place ;) – I got the impression that he was becoming rather suicidal, and probably got carried away in the fight, he was finally fighting for the sake of fighting (after 14 frustrating years of having every reason to beat the whatnot out of Voldemort´s supporters and never getting the chance), as Tolkien would say “the joy of battle was upon him”. In that context his taunting line is not out of character at all.

Get a life, guys. He´s dead.

(That doesn´t mean I don’t feel your pain. :( :hug: )

by Elwen
Am I the only one who is amused by the description of the Aurors' office? A bit like some police headquarters in an American movie or TV series. I loved it .

I loved it too. It´s a lot like Dirty Harry´s workplace. :D

I wanna be an Auror when I´m grown up! :cool:

Marchwarden

07-01-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Telchar II

Bellatrix does a lot of damage to Tonks, but Kingsley seems to recover very quickly. Or at least he doesn't need to go to St. Mungo's. Which suggests that it wasn't really Bella who zapped Kingsley.

Also, what's with this "Wotcher!" from Tonks all the time? Is this a real word, usable in this context? If not (and I've never heard it before), could it be short for "watch her"? And "her" is not Tonks herself, but actually Bella? (Not that Tonks realizes this, of course; this is JKR talking.)

Well, Tonks was stunned on a stone staircase, and tumbled down it.

"Wotcher" is a slang greeting. I believe (not too sure) that it's derived from "Wotcher doin'?"

Elwen

07-01-2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Telchar II

(...)
On Snape, if you modify your own memory (even if that's possible), how do you change your memory of modifying your memory? Or then change your memory of modifying your memory of modifying your memory? See what I mean? You'll always remember changing your own memory, unless some else adjusts your memory for you. Which is why I think that someone else may have planted a few memories in Snape. Perhaps with his permission. Perhaps not.

I am not sure... I would have thought that occumency allows you to hide some of your thoughts... Even if Snape lets his guard down one time.

I would not have suggested the idea that the memory was modified if Harry had not found it in the pensieve. How could he see memories of the modification there if only the modified memory had been deposited there?

Elwen

Tiger Louie

07-01-2003, 06:15 PM

Just a slight expansion on the Wotcher - explanation already given - wotcher is short for 'what're you doing?', and is used as a general all-purpose greeting - equivalent to 'how are you?'

Sorry if that sound's a bit po-faced. There are loads of these sorts of contractions littered throughout the english language, and used differently in different parts of the UK. Wotcher is cockney, if it's anything.

Tiger

Mirdan

07-01-2003, 07:41 PM

so that's what "wotcher" means! i've always wondered what Tonks meant about that...

nothing big or anything, but whose wand was Sirius using? it's curious how he was able to have a couple of duels with some of the Death Eaters with a wand of his own (?). but i don't remember about him buying one either, unless he's using someone else's, or someone got one for him...

anyways, i've always thought that the reason why Bellatrix resembles Sirius was because they were pureblood relatives...sort of like the Hapsburgs ;) maybe Tonks looks a little like them too, though i suspect that she takes after her Muggle father in looks.

i'm not too sure about the Bella-Sirius switch theory either. wouldn't it have been a pretty powerful spell for the switch to actually happen? from what i've gathered, both Bella and Sirius really seemed hell-bent on killing each other, irregardless of whether they're cousins or not. besides, with no body to switch back into, i can't imagine a Sirius inside Bella's body living happily ever after with Harry! :eek: that would be really creepy.

one.elven.girl

07-01-2003, 07:56 PM

Telchar II - I really liked your theory. Aside from being quite clever, it also gives me some hope. Maybe it's just cause I really can't get my mind around Sirius being gone, but nonetheless... Quite good... And it's quite possible, at any rate, if not probable.

Maybe I just want to believe it, but the logic behind it is very good!

Kristin

07-01-2003, 08:56 PM

Telchar -- Fascinating theory! :)

I want to believe Sirius isn't really dead -- but I just can't. I know he's dead. I would be very surprised if JKR brought him back. She seems to want to impart lessons on death and bringing a character back from the dead trivializes death.

If he comes back, death lacks the finality that is essential. Which brings me to the troubling thing: Sirius is dead, but the finality is lacking. His death is too unresolved. (The "WHAAA?" reaction someone else mentioned.) He didn't even seem to be killed outright but had the bad fortune to be hit with a spell (a stunner?) and fall backward through an archway that sucked him into the afterlife. That's a pretty lousy way to go. Plus there's no body.

So at once, the death is final *and* not final. It's tough to process.

Then there's the issue of *why* Sirius had to be killed. Will it have a greater purpose in the next books? Well, as much as I hate it, I must grudgingly admit that his death has already served a purpose (other than making fans grief-stricken)... When Voldemort was possessing Harry, it was Harry's thought that he would see Sirius again that made Voldemort let go of Harry. (Of course, JKR will need to justify Sirius's death more than that for me to be OK with it.)

Moxie

07-01-2003, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by Mirdan
maybe Tonks looks a little like them too, though i suspect that she takes after her Muggle father in looks.
Tonks, of course, takes after whoever she wants to in looks. ;)

Sirius' wand... probably not the one he used before the frame-up; I'd think that one's securely in Ministry custody... unless of course, the Ministry's custodian happened to be Shacklebolt Kingsley after the latter came up with some theory about how the wand could be used to trace its former owner. ;) Sounds like something he'd come up with too. (Can you tell I like that guy best of all the Book 5 newbies so far?)

The Switch Theory sounds far-fetched to me, but also sounds like the sort of red herring JKR loves... I'll be keeping a close eye out for mention of names (or, more to the point, lack of names) on the Black tapestry in the future. In any case, I agree with Mirdan that pureblood wizarding families, unless they're really diligent about avoiding it, are bound to end up... well, looking more alike than relatives usually do. :eek: Maybe Crabbe and Goyle are as stupid as they seem because of inbreeding?

Marchwarden

07-01-2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Moxie
Sirius' wand... probably not the one he used before the frame-up; I'd think that one's securely in Ministry custody... unless of course, the Ministry's custodian happened to be Shacklebolt Kingsley after the latter came up with some theory about how the wand could be used to trace its former owner. ;) Sounds like something he'd come up with too. (Can you tell I like that guy best of all the Book 5 newbies so far?)

Actually, it's Kingsley Shacklebolt:o , but yes, A senior Auror who works for the Order, plays it ever so slick and takes on Death Eaters two at a time is pretty cool.

The best part is that there are several big-name actors who could play him, and hearing any of them with a British accent would be worth the price of the dvd right there.:D

jesuisalleeaujardin

07-02-2003, 01:16 AM

thanks, susanna, but i really don't want to dwell in pasts where i can't change anything. :) it was part of growing up, and i'm sure all of us learned our lessons. my friends and i all turned out well-adjusted, if i say so myself, and with the circumstances that surrounded us.

originally posted by telchar II
Fourth, is it possible that Snape's worst memory is a planted memory? In other words, a memory modification? Now why would that be, you ask? Well, perhaps because Dumbledore or Lilly (her wand was good for charms, and memory work is a charm) wanted it to seem to all Occlumens who looked into Snape's mind that Snape had very good reasons to dislike James (and therefore Harry). Snape might even have consented to this memory modification. It gives him an excellent motivation to hate Harry, which is a good cover for all the stuff he's doing for the Order -- some of which we assume is double-agent work.

haven't read everyone's posts yet, but telchar II, that was some post haha _ i zoomed in on your memory modification theory. dude!!! hahaha _ i hope snape's not a double agent. i really would like to see how he changed from student to death eater to professor, and that he did it using normal means. but, but... maybe the reason why snape didn't see the kids fly off on thestrals to london was coz he was tipping off malfoy, that harry and party fell for it, and are headed full speed to the dept of mysteries... if snape saw them, i think it'd be easy for him to hop on his own broom and chase some students back to hogwarts. ...

i don't want him to become a double agent coz it will mean that even dumbledore can't be trusted. while old wizards make mistakes, it's cruel to remember them as the wizard/s who made the worst, most irredeemable mistake/s. ...

but if dumbledore turns out wrong, then someone else would have to come to the rescue... and so maybe that's where harry and co. come in. ;) ahahaha... i just posted an article about rowling hinting that harry might not make it to adulthood. now i'm thinking she's telling us, not merely hinting. ...

but i was thinking similar, about accuracy of memories in penseives... i was hoping while reading that bit when harry was watching snape's memories, that snape's memories had better be accurate!... when i first read about dumbledore, though, i took it that his were accurate _ it's dumblyyydooore after all... but this is hogwarts... i think there's a good chance that memories in penseives are accurate... further, if harry pursued that bit about his father, he might ask lupin for a peek into his memories, haha... to see if his and snape's memories are the same... thus showing us that memories preserved in penseives accurate... but i doubt harry would do that... he might ask, hehe. ...

jardin

Telchar II

07-02-2003, 04:01 AM

Thanks!

Marchwarden has a good point, though: Tonks did topple down stone stairs in a way that Kingsley didn't.

I'm not convinced myself. I just saw it as a possibility.

originally posted by Pippin
One, JKR has introduced the theme of “not being who you appear to be” but switching spells would have appeared or being talked about if she wants to introduce that. Two, we´d not only have to know that there is such a thing, we´d also have to know a little about how they work – does it only make you look/sound/move like the person you´ve switched into, or do you also feel and think like them? We´d need to know that if we were to interpret Sirius’ and Bella’s actions in the fight scene correctly. Three, wouldn´t it be terribly dangerous to do that sort of thing, switch into a DE´s body in the middle of a raging Auror-against-DE battle, with Dumbledore and Voldemort themselves on the premises? And four, if Sirius knows how to perform that spell, don´t all the other grown-up wizards know it too (at least know it exists), wouldn`t it have been used before for spying on each other and stuff? It would really be an “old joke” for them.

Here are my answers to these good questions.

1. We have seen Switching Spells mentioned, and often. It's just that JKR usually plays them for laughs. Which should make us suspicious! In GoF, McGonagall yells, "Longbottom, please do not let on in front of anyone from Durmstrang that you cannot perform a simple Switching Spell!" Or words to that effect.

2. We don't know anything about Switching Spells. Which I think is an odd combination (agreeing with the Ultimate Mysteries book on this point). JKR always talks about them but never explains them. Strange.....

3. Yes, dangerous, but Sirius is daring, and perhaps, as suggested above, even somewhat suicidal at this point. As for Dumbledore and Voldemort, my thinking is that Dumbledore did _not_ know because the Switch happened just before he showed up. And he didn't seem focused on the Sirius-Bella fight. Seemed to think that Sirius could take care of himself. (Sniff!) Voldemort, of course, was never in the Death Chamber to begin with. So fooling Voldemort depends on my key assumption -- that Sirius is an excellent Occlumens (and a good actor to boot).

4. It's not clear. Even though McGonagall describes switching spells as simple, JKR says that that very lesson was extremely difficult. Remember that transfiguration is some of the most difficult magic there is, and that only Hermione is up to mice by the end of the fifth year.

Elwen

07-02-2003, 05:45 AM

While I am thinking of it:

Would a switching spell be enough for exchanging two people well enough that it would work? What happens if one side dies?

I would say that in the long run you'd have to go for polyjuice potion - why else would Crouch jr have gone through all the trouble?

On wands: I keep thinking about this: Mr. Olivander makes so much of wands being compatible with wizards... is that a marketing gimmick? After all. neville never used his own and what of Ron's original wand - was that bought first hand?

They seem to make such a big deal of someone's want being broken by the minstry (think Hagrid in particular) but on the other hand, you can go and get another wand (Ron!, Neville and Sirius presumably).

I don't get it!

Clearly, Harry's wand really is special because of its Voldemort connection - but this intimate and unique connection between wizard and wand doesn't quite hold true for everyone, it seems....

Finally - filming OotP :)

So who could play Tonks? Now that will be a prostetics job!! (Theoden's healing several times over, and all matter-of-factly).

Generally - just as JKR said: it looks as if she were writing to keep special effects people pretty busy!!

Elwen

Telchar II

07-02-2003, 07:12 AM

Good question, Elwen. Perhaps Crouch Jr. is better at potions than at charms? Doubtful, though, as we hear his dad saying that he got a fistful of OWLs or NEWTs.

Although I'm glad you raised the example of Crouch Junior. Dumbledore's a Legilimens, but Crouch Junior managed somehow to fool him for an entire school year. Perhaps there's hope for "Bella"/Sirius after all?

Pilgrim Grey

07-02-2003, 08:34 AM

But Telchar, I don't think Dumbledore is in the business of screening all of his incoming teachers, so I don't think he would've bothered to use legilemency (sp?) on Moody/Crouch

Tiger Louie

07-02-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Marchwarden
The best part is that there are several big-name actors who could play him, and hearing any of them with a British accent would be worth the price of the dvd right there.:D

I kept imagining Samuel L Jackson as Kingsley as I was reading, although there is a british comedian, Lenny Henry who would probably be good (he's done dramatic roles as well as comedy).

Tiger

Telchar II

07-02-2003, 10:40 AM

And yet he is in the business of screening members of the Order during a mass battle with the Death Eaters?

I think JKR really played up Dumbledore's fallibility in this book. In fact, it started with him having Moody under his nose for a whole year in book 4. But we only learn about this at the end of book 4, so it established the theme nicely for book 5.

Pippin

07-02-2003, 12:02 PM

Argh, I don´t WANT Dumbledore to be fallible! But then, that´s part of growing up, finding out things like that.

I think we´re all taking Legilimency (sp?) and Occlumency far too lightly, like you only need to look at a person and read all their thoughts. Listen to Snape :D, that´s not how it works. It´s a very rare ability (and not very widely known anyway), and it makes you share your opponent´s feelings and memories rather than their actual conscious thoughts. It´s a battle of minds really. Crouch jr. probably knew how to avoid situations where Dumbledore might have been using these powers on him.

Telchar, thanks for elaborating on your theory... doesn´t Tonks tell Harry (in his bedroom, while they pack) that "most wizards need charms or potions to change their appearance"? Interesting.

Maybe you´re right? :eek:

(I´ll bet you ten galleons that you´re not, honestly. :D)

Elwen, on wands - I really don´t know where Sirius got his one from but on the whole, Mr Ollivander probably knows who he´s allowed to sell a wand to, and how they lost their previous one. And we heven´t heard yet what´s going to happen with Neville.

it looks as if she were writing to keep special effects people pretty busy!! And the great thing is, in the first book already there were things that would have been very hard to produce as special effects at the time they were written, but now it´s possible...

Halbarad

07-02-2003, 02:58 PM

Pippin, Telchar II, you're on to something that has bothered me... Dumbledore is so powerful that one wonders why, for example, he wasn't there earlier during the battle... having some fallability in him gives him some limitations I guess; otherwise he could fix everything up and there would be little story.

I started wondering if there was some swithching that had occurred between Harry and Neville... so much is similar between them... parents successfully opposing V 3 times, birthdates. I wonder if Neville has a mark that is not as obvious as Harry's, like forgetfulness.

The heart of this story seems to me to be related to the story of the Potter's and Longbottom's opposition period to V.. we learned very little about that in OotP.

I also wonder if Harry cannot kill V, just as V could not kill H. Of course, now that V has some of Harry's blood, maybe neither can kill the other, or both can...

all the best, Halbarad

katzpotter

07-02-2003, 05:44 PM

I don't know if it's just me, but.... Does it seem like Umbridge favors the Slytheins? Because she's always giving them points and... I dunno..... Maybe SHE was a Slytherin....

It's just a thought....

Tiger Louie

07-02-2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Pippin

Elwen, on wands - I really don´t know where Sirius got his one from but on the whole, Mr Ollivander probably knows who he´s allowed to sell a wand to, and how they lost their previous one.

I don't think it has been suggested yet, but a friend of mine suggested that perhaps Sirius still had his parents' wands. Couldn't he have been using one of those?

Tiger

Pippin

07-02-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Halbarad
I also wonder if Harry cannot kill V, just as V could not kill H. Of course, now that V has some of Harry's blood, maybe neither can kill the other, or both can... Interesting, Halb. Can we be sure that there´s no way Voldemort (are you afraid of saying his name or just too lazy to type it out? :p ;)) can kill Harry? OK, Harry got away every single time, but only the first time he was fully hit by a deadly curse and yet lived, because he had his mother´s love and sacrifice to protect him. I don´t know if this is still a perfect protection.

You just made me remember that strange momentary glint in Dumbledore´s eyes at the end of GoF, when he hears what happened with Harry´s blood at the graveyard. That hasn´t been explained in any way in OotP, has it?

All we get is a stupid Prophecy telling us what we all could have guessed anyway, and which might as well have long been overtaken by events (such as Harry´s survival as a baby, and Voldemorts return to a bodily form in GoF).

Halbarad

07-02-2003, 07:06 PM

Hi Pippin... I used V out of laziness and a an affinity for Thomas Pynchon and the V monologues...

ou just made me remember that strange momentary glint in Dumbledore´s eyes at the end of GoF, when he hears what happened with Harry´s blood at the graveyard. That hasn´t been explained in any way in OotP, has it?

Nope! I think that is really important. However, I wonder if V gets new powers over Harry out of the blood exchange...

All we get is a stupid Prophecy telling us what we all could have guessed anyway, and which might as well have long been overtaken by events (such as Harry´s survival as a baby, and Voldemorts return to a bodily form in GoF).

One possibility is that the prophecy has a hidden meaning that we are overlooking... got me thinking that Neville might be marked in a non-obvious way.

Kristin

07-02-2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Halbarad
The heart of this story seems to me to be related to the story of the Potter's and Longbottom's opposition period to V.. we learned very little about that in OotP.

I agree. Much is made out of the Potters and Longbottoms opposing or escaping Voldemort three times. I want to know more about that.

I was looking at SS again and found this quote of Hagrid's about Lily and James: "Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before ... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with the Dark Side." Interesting...

Also I'm not convinced that Harry was the only important figure. In PoA, they make reference to Wormtail wanting to "deliver the last Potter," which implies that Harry's parents were important even though the propecy seems to mean that only Harry was significan.

jesuisalleeaujardin

07-02-2003, 08:26 PM

hehe... just wanted to say that everyone seems to want sirius to be alive bad enough that we're hoping bella and sirius would have somehow switched places... but why? i mean... if you're so hell-bent on killing someone, you'd focus on spells and weapons that would blow them to smithereens... so why switch places with them? unless you uttered the wrong spell? but we can prolly take it that members of the prestigious black family would never make mistakes like that. ...

another deliciously annoying detail i found with the last 60 pages of the book are when harry and friends venture into the department of mysteries, charging after the big V who's supposedly torturing sirius (yep, V is for voldie, but his name's too cumbersome to type, haha, and my ideas might run away before i write them). ...

rowling took the time to describe their surroundings. while the writing is certainly engaging, it drove me up the wall coz i don't think even kids take time to absorb their surroundings if they're chasing something that their life hinged upon... but then again, entering the dept of mysteries is like going through a maze of sorts, and so the fastest way to go through one is to look for patterns, and for that, you need to be observant... just another one of my crazy musings :)... my co-worker enjoyed it, says it reinforces just how complex the magical world is... and to that extent, i agree. see, coz... with that arch... we dunno what's it about, so if there's voices, sirius isn't really dead ;). ...

jardin

Mirdan

07-02-2003, 09:02 PM

the thing is, the reason why i asked about wands was because i've always thought the Ministry broke Sirius's wand. sort of like what they did to Hagrid's, and even then Hagrid was just expelled from Hogwarts. Sirius was accused of killing Peter and 13 other Muggles, so i thought that just before Sirius was taken to Azkaban the authorities might've destroyed his wand as well. and if that was the case, then Sirius must've somehow acquired a new wand, be it from one of his parents, or a second-hand wand like Ron's and Neville's. unless Ollivander's in on the Order of the Phoenix, then it'd make a lot of sense that Sirius got a brand new one because didn't Ollivander say that wands also choose their owners, or something to that effect?

speaking of wands...why can't Fawkes just give a few more of his feathers?

another thing i thought was interesting was Harry's mindset after learning about the Prophecy. isn't it curious that Harry sees himself as a murderer if the Prophecy must be fulfilled? compare that attitude to Voldemort's, who has pretty much lost all sense of humanity. very interesting.

Persephine

07-03-2003, 08:26 AM

Ah...I liked, loved, in fact, Telchar's speculations!!!

Oi vay...I'm still in a shocked and sad state. I don't want to believe that my fav marauder is gone.

I'm off to read it again. But not before homework.

Limeth

07-03-2003, 09:29 AM

Well finally finished the book last night (although only got it on Monday, so not too bad :D ). Just a few thoughts -

Overall - really enjoyed it. Although think I will need to read it again, as realised I had missed a lot of points after reading this thread!

The death - wasn't expecting it to be that particular person, I was far more worried about the continued health of Ron & Hermione, particularly after Ron was wrapped up with the brain . I found Cedric's death far more affecting (I bawl every time I read it!), but this - meh.

The prophecy - again not as big as I was expecting. But think it will bring Harry & Neville closer together in 6 & 7.

Just another quick thought re. Elwen's comments waaaaay upthread about characters being described more like their film characters - I totally found this with Snape. Alan Rickman never looked anyhere near like how I had imagined Snape personally, but JKR seems to repeatedly talk now about his greasy black curtain hair! I also now can't seperate Hagrid and Robbie Coltrane - inspired piece of casting! :D

Mirdan

07-03-2003, 01:51 PM

i was reading PoA again the other night, and i noticed something a little strange when i got to that confrontational scene at the Shrieking Shack. isn't it a bit odd that rather than choosing Lupin as the alternate Secret Keeper, Sirius went for Peter? and then later on, Lupin even admits that he suspected Black of being a double agent even before the Fidelius Charm was cast on the Potters. i wonder if this has anything to do with their work for the Order. there must've been some point in time when something had happened between the Marauders to make them act suspicious of each other. what made Sirius choose Peter over Lupin in the first place? from what we've seen in OotP, it has always been James, Sirius, and Lupin who were closer to each other than they were to Peter. and again, in OotP, Lupin seemed to almost always be busy with something, though we don't really know exactly what it was that he did. Sirius would probably just the same if he wasn't on the wanted list of both the Muggle and wizarding world.

katzpotter

07-03-2003, 02:10 PM

A friend of mine, before OotP came out, suggested that Voldemort and Dumbledore were the same person.

She justified her theory by the 'triumphant' gleam in Dumbledore's eyes after Harry told him that Moldie Voldie (yes, he's a moldy old chap) could touch him, along with the fact that Dumbledore was never there when Harry came face to face with Moldie Voldie.

I, of course, told her that she was dead wrong and refused to listen to any more of her Potter theories. Voldie could only get to Harry when Dumbledore was away, or if he was acting under the influence of something or someone else, ergo, Voldie is not Dumbledore.

Hopefully she'll have read the book, and next time I see her, I'll tell her the truth: "I told you so."

You see, we see that Dumbledore and Moldie Voldie are not the same person because they fight each other. IN FRONT OF HARRY. So in your face, Janani!

On a lighter note, I still think Umbridge was a Slytherin. Ron said, "There isn't a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin." Or he said, "There isn't a witch or wizard in Slytherin that didn't go bad." (I can't rightly remember.)

Umbridge went bad. She went with Fudge. Ergo, bad. Yes.

Marchwarden

07-03-2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Mirdan
i was reading PoA again the other night, and i noticed something a little strange when i got to that confrontational scene at the Shrieking Shack. isn't it a bit odd that rather than choosing Lupin as the alternate Secret Keeper, Sirius went for Peter? and then later on, Lupin even admits that he suspected Black of being a double agent even before the Fidelius Charm was cast on the Potters. i wonder if this has anything to do with their work for the Order. there must've been some point in time when something had happened between the Marauders to make them act suspicious of each other. what made Sirius choose Peter over Lupin in the first place? from what we've seen in OotP, it has always been James, Sirius, and Lupin who were closer to each other than they were to Peter. and again, in OotP, Lupin seemed to almost always be busy with something, though we don't really know exactly what it was that he did. Sirius would probably just the same if he wasn't on the wanted list of both the Muggle and wizarding world.

Sirius and Lupin were both worthy of suspicion, to some degree. Sirius Black came from a long line of Dark wizards; his brother, cousin and two cousins-in-law were all Death Eaters.

Voldemort's "army of Dark creatures" undoubtedly contained many werewolves; it is likely that Voldemort promised them what he promised the Giants: free reign and an end to persecution.

I'm sure no one wanted to believe that either Sirius or Remus would betray the Order, but they knew that one of their trusted friends had turned coat. Would it be the scion of the dreadful house of Black, the struggling werewolf or the squeaky little sidekick?

Kristin

07-03-2003, 07:57 PM

Here's an aspect of OotP I was thinking about. Tell me what you think:

In the first four books, everyone makes a big deal about how much Harry is like James (looks, Quidditch, loyalty, etc.) There are many references by many characters to this. Almost to the extent that Harry is like James Part II.

Now, all of a sudden in OotP, much is made of how Harry is NOT so much like his father. Sirius comments on it. Harry finds it out in the pensieve. And I think there were other examples as well.

I wonder why? Why go from making a big deal about how Harry is like James and then switch and make a big deal about how Harry actually isn't that much like James?

Of course, maybe it's just part of the storytelling and has no bigger meaning.

Telchar II

07-03-2003, 08:19 PM

It's possible that JKR has some plot device in mind, but I think it's more a normal aspect of growing up: particularly in adolescence, we see our parents' flaws and want to be different from them. We have a much more critical attitude.

Also it's probably a function of Harry's orphanhood. He has cherished a noble memory (or image) of his parents, and now he is becoming slightly disabused. Again, I think that's part of Harry becoming more his own person.

swiftsnowmane

07-03-2003, 08:43 PM

I thought it was very fitting that in the beginning of OotP, when the advance guard comes for Harry, Mad-Eye says "Ok, lets disillusion him now" or something like that. I know he meant the Disillusionment charm itself, but its almost like that sets the tone for the rest of the book. Harry does become quite disillusioned in OotP, and not just with James, Lily, and Sirius. He also realizes the falibility of Dumbledore, and even sees Cho, whom he previously admired from afar, in a different light. He finds that these people are not neccessarily who he always thought they were...

PhoenixSong1031

07-03-2003, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by swiftsnowmane:
I know he meant the Disillusionment charm itself, but its almost like that sets the tone for the rest of the book. Harry does become quite disillusioned in OotP, and not just with James, Lily, and Sirius. He also realizes the falibility of Dumbledore, and even sees Cho, whom he previously admired from afar, in a different light. He finds that these people are not neccessarily who he always thought they were...
Very interesting thought... ;)
JKR put in the disillusionment of the characters to (as you said) let Harry see that they may not be who he thought they were. But there is also the added bonus of the fact that JKR lets the readers know at the same time that Harry is at a point in his life where he is developing a more keen sense of what is going on around him and he is growing up. I like this method much more than the adolescent mood-swings he has throughout the book - but at least we have both.
The charm being set by Moody makes me wonder though about during GoF, when he (or rather Crouch Jr.) was teaching them not only about the curses - but also of "Constant Vigilance". I don't know whether JKR is setting up her red herrings (as always) to point out that they must watch out for what will happen in the months/year to come, that they must watch those around them (aka Umbridge with the tea full of Veritaserum) to see whether they are the person they expected them to be (like Crouch Jr with Moody). I don't know if any of that even made any sense ... :confused: Maybe someone can add to these musings?? ;)

~Phoenix

Moxie

07-03-2003, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by katzpotter
...I still think Umbridge was a Slytherin. Ron said, "There isn't a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin."

Umbridge went bad. She went with Fudge. Ergo, bad. Yes.

Hagrid said it in the first book (the first phrasing you wrote was the correst one) - but he forgot that Sirius Black, accused of betraying the Potters and killing thirteen Muggles, was a Gryffindor (as was Peter Pettigrew, who actually did do so). One counterexample is enough to disprove Hagrid's general statement.

As for Slytherins, it's quite possible that Fudge and (even more so) Umbridge are both Slytherin alumni - but Snape appears to have been atoning for his evil past for many years now, and I have my suspicions that Kingsley Shacklebolt is also from that House. (Remember that Slyths are chosen for cunning as well as ambition; if Goyle and Crabbe, both too stupid to be really cunning, can make it in, so can a future Auror and Order of the Phoenix member capable of simultaneously leading/misdirecting the search for Black and being quick and sneaky enough to sabotage an informer in the investigation of Dumbledore's Army, whatever his level of ambition - unless he wasn't "pure" enough, in which case I'd guess he was a Ravenclaw.)

Kristin

07-04-2003, 12:35 AM

Along those lines, I find it interesting what the Sorting Hat said ... that Gryffindor and Slytherin were best friends!

It's kind of like the revelation that James and Sirius were best friends -- shocking at first, but then we found out that Sirius wasn't bad. Will we likewise find out that Slytherin (whether house or founder) isn't so bad?

jesuisalleeaujardin

07-04-2003, 12:48 AM

ya... there's a philosophical theory that good and bad only appear that way when put in a "lense," or a certain point of view... relativism i think it is... so while slytherin might have appeared secretive... he might be hiding something really important... and it is cruicial to keep it secret... else everything would be in chaos... ah, that's one more thing i forgot to add to my list of want i want to see in book 6 _ the history of the four hogwarts founders. ...

have a happy 4th, everyone! :) :beer:

jardin

Tiger Louie

07-04-2003, 03:59 AM

Originally posted by Moxie
Hagrid said it in the first book (the first phrasing you wrote was the correst one) - but he forgot that Sirius Black, accused of betraying the Potters and killing thirteen Muggles, was a Gryffindor (as was Peter Pettigrew, who actually did do so). One counterexample is enough to disprove Hagrid's general statement.

As for Slytherins, it's quite possible that Fudge and (even more so) Umbridge are both Slytherin alumni

Interesting food for thought here! I have to say, I can't see any evidence from the books so far that Sirius and Peter (or James or Lupin for that matter) were in Gryffindor! It's a point which has been bugging me for a while. At this point I actually think they were one from each house (Sirius in Slytherin, James in Ravenclaw, Peter in Hufflepuff and Lupin in Gryffindor). I'd be grateful if anyone can point to evidence as to which house they are in definitely cos it's driving me nuts!

I'd also have to say, as JKR is a great one for red herrings (and possibly overdid them in HP5) I would question the fact that all dark wizards are Slytherins - as we already know at least one Death Eater was a Durmstrang - so not at all a Slytherin - and perhaps it is only the ones who were either caught or accused who were in Slytherin.

Umbridge will have aligned with the Slytherins because she's aligned with Fudge. Fudge knows that the most consistent supporters of Dumbledore as headmaster are parents of students in G/R/H and the most consistent opponents (principally Lucius Malfoy) are in Slytherin. As Fudge has mistakenly assumed at the end of GoF that Dumbledore is going up against him I assume he will have told Umbridge to be wary, and that her best chance of support and loyalty in the school will be amongst the Slytherins. This would apply whatever house either Umbridge or Fudge was in at school.

Tiger

Mirdan

07-04-2003, 04:40 AM

mods, i swear that i haven't been post-slutting...i just happen to lurk here a lot today! :o

Originally posted by Tiger Louie
Interesting food for thought here! I have to say, I can't see any evidence from the books so far that Sirius and Peter (or James or Lupin for that matter) were in Gryffindor! It's a point which has been bugging me for a while. At this point I actually think they were one from each house (Sirius in Slytherin, James in Ravenclaw, Peter in Hufflepuff and Lupin in Gryffindor). I'd be grateful if anyone can point to evidence as to which house they are in definitely cos it's driving me nuts!
that's really interesting, Tiger Louie! i never thought of it that way before... but if i was the Sorting Hat i think i'd've put both James and Sirius in Gryffindor and Lupin would be in Ravenclaw, but slighty leaning towards Gryffindor-ishness :D dunno about Peter, though his later actions show him to be a little more Slytherin than anything else. James and Sirius might've chosen to be placed in Gryffindor (like Harry did)...it seemed that Sirius was already unhappy about his family history, with him running away at pretty young age. so i thought it would only make sense if Sirius chose not to have anything to do with the House that has the reputation similar to his own family.

can't remember whether JKR ever really specified which House/s the Marauders belonged to. i've always thought they were all Gryffindors, though. didn't Hagrid or Dumbledore, or anyone else tell Harry somewhere that his parents were also Gryffindors? i'm not sure if i even read that in the books!

both Fudge and Umbridge strike me as Hufflepuffs, with Umbridge leaning a little more towards Slytherin-ness :devil:

Halbarad

07-04-2003, 10:40 AM

Interesting thought, Tiger Louie. This page....

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/potter.html

(follow to James and Lily) seems to indicate that JKR gave an interview and implied James and Lily were Gryffindors.

On blood, I wonder if Voldemort magically refined out his muggle blood... resulting, in part, in his weird snakelike post-Riddle body and face.

And then, I wonder if Dumbledore knows that some kind of essential goodness comes from non-wizard blood, including muggles, giants, merpeople, werewolves, etc.

And then finally, perhaps Dumbledore was happy at the end of GoF to learn that some of Harry's blood got into Voldemort, because Dumbledore knows this will push V toward the good.

Helenia

07-04-2003, 11:24 AM

I believe I've read somewhere (an interview or something) that Lily and James were both in Gryffindor, but I'm not 100% sure.

That Umbridge was in Slytherin is also a very feasible idea, not just because of what Hagrid said, but the Sorting Hat's Song (can't remember which book, but it says it) "And power-hungry Slytherin/Loved those of great ambition." That just about sums her up!

About Pettigrew, when Hagrid said "There wasn't a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin," he didn't know that Pettigrew was bad. Still begs the question of Sirius though, but I'm sure he'd have told Harry by now if he'd been in Slytherin. I am still intrigued though, especially after having read "Snape's worst memory" as to why the Marauders bothered to be friends with him; it's clear that Sirius and James don't give a damn about the guy.

Hi Elwen, if you're around! I made it!

Pippin

07-04-2003, 11:27 AM

by Tiger Louie
I have to say, I can't see any evidence from the books so far that Sirius and Peter (or James or Lupin for that matter) were in Gryffindor! :eek:

I´ve never thought about that. I can´t believe it doesn´t say *anywhere* they were all in Gryffindor!!! Come on people, we all know the books by heart, can´t anyone come up with some proof about this?

by swiftsnowmane
I thought it was very fitting that in the beginning of OotP, when the advance guard comes for Harry, Mad-Eye says "Ok, lets disillusion him now" or something like that. I know he meant the Disillusionment charm itself, but its almost like that sets the tone for the rest of the book. That´s an excellent observation, Swifty. :) And by no means a coincidence, I should think!

by Kristin
In the first four books, everyone makes a big deal about how much Harry is like James (looks, Quidditch, loyalty, etc.) There are many references by many characters to this. Almost to the extent that Harry is like James Part II. I wonder why? Why go from making a big deal about how Harry is like James and then switch and make a big deal about how Harry actually isn't that much like James? Well, that´s what growing up is about, isn´t it, like Telchar said? Finding your own identity, being “Harry” instead of “James´ son”.

In books 1-4, the comparison is often quite superficial (looks, Quidditch, and in Snape´s eyes, arrogance). In book 5, we get more to the point who James was and who Harry is, and find out that Harry may appear to be James II, but isn´t. I see no contradiction there. :confused:

Katzpotter,

I´m sorry, but I don´t think that being in any of the houses guarantees or prevents or proves anything. Moxie has given some very good examples for that. And I´m glad that´s the case, because otherwise it would be too easy, “look, he´s in Slytherin, you can´t trust him”. Remember Dumbledore´s words, which house you´re in is, to a crucial degree, your own choice.

I see Fudge in Hufflepuff (not that I dislike the Hufflepuffs, he just seems to fit in there) – if he ever attended Hogwarts at all. My favourite theory, namely that he´s really a Squib, still stands – we haven´t seen him do any magic in OotP either, have we? :D

Mirdan
isn't it a bit odd that rather than choosing Lupin as the alternate Secret Keeper, Sirius went for Peter? and then later on, Lupin even admits that he suspected Black of being a double agent even before the Fidelius Charm was cast on the Potters. what made Sirius choose Peter over Lupin in the first place? Maybe it was a mere practicality – maybe Lupin was out of reach when Sirius had to decide very quickly to switch places with Peter.

Halb, interesting thoughts... well, who isn´t DYING to know what Harry´s blood did to Voldemort, to make Dumbledore´s eyes glitter like that? But I find it more likely that this has to do something with the ancient protective magic of Lily´s sacrifice rather than muggle blood or pure blood. What scares me that with whatever theory I can come up with concerning this blood exchange, they all go in favour of Voldemort becoming basically invincible! :eek:

EDIT - Hi Helenia, nice to see you - welcome to the MI! :wave:

ElfTBD

07-04-2003, 11:52 AM

I think Pippin is right about the house thing...The biggest thing being said is taht voldemort had spies everywhere, so to me that would be regardless of house....it just seems that the greatest majority of bad wizards hail from Slytherin....

Elwen

07-04-2003, 01:15 PM

I hope that there isn't such a clearcut definition of the houses (I actualy am a bit bugged by the current impression that everyone who is intereyting is Gryffindor and everyone who is bad is Slytherin....

I love Tiger's discovery and I would hope that we see a bit more diversity. Otherwise the whole thing reeks of afirmly determined line for people in these houses. And what would be the difference between 'giants are bad' and 'Slytherins are bad'? The criterion seems arbitrary in both cases - even if personal choice is somehow involved.

Remember why Harry chose Gryffindor? He was clueless but because he had been told that Slytherin was so bad (by Gryffindor sympathisers) he didn't want to be there. Not the most impressive basis for a choice, IMHO.

The whole house thing is a little fishy, IMHO. Not my favourite aspect of the book.

By the way, while we at determinism and stuff - Pippin: will you ever return to that fascinating prophecy thread of yours? :)

Helenia,

Great to see you here! And with 4 posts already! :)
Not very scary is it, will all these familiar faces around :)
Welcome to the MI :)

susanna

07-04-2003, 01:45 PM

Well, the first book was for children, and children often enjoy a clear world, where the good guys are in Gryffindor and the bad guys are in Slytherin, and where there is some kind of fight good against evil, and it is important that the house cup and the Quidditch cup go to Gryffindor. The good guys win... Older kids can cope with a more complex and a more complicated world.

Elwen

07-04-2003, 02:09 PM

Yes and no, Susanna.... in a way, the world has never been like this, although we are only slowly discovering this.

I don't think that the reason for this is the *audience* for the books. The reason is, IMHO, that we see the story through Harry's eyes - and he is slowly waking up to some facts that are difficult to grasp, even for adults:

- there is no absolute good and evil - there is just grey.
- there is no absolute truth - truth is in the eye of the beholder.... (cf. James Potter as seen by Sirius as opposed to James Potter as seen by Snape) - and apt shorthand description for the nature of history.

In that respect the simplified idea of 'Gryffindor good - SLytherin bad - Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff: who cares' works well. But Harry is growing up and it is time that we got a slightly more balanced view of the houses. I hoped for more than we got after what the SOrting hat sang on OoTP.

Elwen

lizz

07-04-2003, 02:44 PM

about the secretkeeper:

sirius said in PoA they knew there was a spy around and he suspected Lupin to be the spy, so of course they didnt ask him to be secretkeeper.

Halbarad

07-04-2003, 03:35 PM

On the houses, it often occured to me how sparse/economical the first two books were, in that Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw were hardly discussed... I'm not sure JKR even has mentioned (still) who the head of Ravenclaw house is. Elwen, I like the idea that we see/hear through Harry; if we saw/heard through Hermione, it would be a whole different story.

And Elwen, there is certainly one non-grey area of badness: membership in Slytherin. Although Snape has nudged toward a bit of goodness, being a member of the Order and also helping (well, *maybe* helping) Harry out with extra lessons.

Also Harry had an odd experience with Draco that led Harry to reject Slytherin.

The story would get richer with a sympathetic Slytherin, who could make one more aware of why purebloods feel they have a case. All the Slytherins (except maybe Snape) are so predictable. Also we know one non-pureblood who made Slytherin... Tom Riddle. There could be others and maybe even Muggle-borns in Slytherin. Oh yes... Gryffindors are not always perfectly good... they have at times been rather suspicious of Harry, after the dueling snake in CoS and also in OotP.

Back to blood... sure thing Pippin, we are all curious about H's blood in V. I'm wondering though whether Dumbledore's sympathy for mixed bloods, from Lupin to Hagrid to Centaurs, is not purely political correctness, but has some basis in magic itself. Blood can be permanently transformed... werewolves cannot be healed. Hagrid might well have special powers over magical creatures. Centaurs are very special. Maybe even Lily's blood connection was more than just motherly... James died for Harry too, but his blood did not protect Harry... maybe wizarding blood leans to evilness, but a bit of Muggle blood tilts back to goodness.

One thing that could resolve this stuff is some sort of `creation myth'. What led to wizards and muggles in the first place? Perhaps in the beginning there were only wizards, and then some wizards forsook magic as a sacrifice for good, and became muggles. Sounds a bit religious! But wizards do celebrate Christmas...

Pippin

07-04-2003, 04:40 PM

by Halb
I'm not sure JKR even has mentioned (still) who the head of Ravenclaw house is. I don´t think she has!

by Halb
there is certainly one non-grey area of badness: membership in Slytherin. Oh Halb, I disagree. You said it yourself, look at Snape. Snape is not the exemption that confirms the rule, he´s the living proof that there is not only black in Slytherin, and that it´s your choices that matter, because he chose to go over to the good side even though he was the classic Slytherin at school.

by HAlb
I'm wondering though whether Dumbledore's sympathy for mixed bloods, from Lupin to Hagrid to Centaurs, is not purely political correctness, but has some basis in magic itself. Well said Halb - political correctness indeed. :D I must say though that I don´t really like this "blood" stuff at all, it smells too much of predetermination to me, you know, you´re like this because of your blood, you can´t help it but you can´t change it either... I don´t like that. But wizards do celebrate Christmas... by singing "God rest ye, merry Hippogriffs", yeah right. :D

Well, JKR isn´t very clear on the religious background of the Wizarding World. Most of the wizarding traditions seem to have a rather pagan background. I think their Christmas and Easter is just a secular way of having a holiday and a feast - much like many muggles see it today.

by susanna
the first book was for children, and children often enjoy a clear world, where the good guys are in Gryffindor and the bad guys are in Slytherin, I´m more with Elwen here - even in the first book, the huge surprise in the end was that "not nice" is not the same as "evil". Of course there´s this superficial house rivalry but it´s still there even now. It doesn´t have anything to do with the age of the kids in the story, or of the readers. There´s always been both: JKR has always both used these clear-cut patterns and turned them upside down at the same time.

by Elwen
I hope that there isn't such a clearcut definition of the houses (I actualy am a bit bugged by the current impression that everyone who is intereyting is Gryffindor and everyone who is bad is Slytherin.... Well, that´s not what it´s like, is it? Particularly in book 5. I mean, the Slytherins are still a bit apart, but there´s lots of Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws in the DA, for example. by Elwen
The whole house thing is a little fishy, IMHO. Not my favourite aspect of the book. Nor mine. Another "predetermination" issue I have with the books. Talking of that, will you ever return to that fascinating prophecy thread of yours? yes, I will, thanks for reminding me. I wanted to re-read the Prophecy chapter first but my housemate has got hold of my copy and won´t let go of it - only to discuss her theories who will die (which I´m not allowed to give way) or do some sirius Sirius Swooning and Snape Bashing. Given my opposite preferences we´ve taken to glaring a lot at each other over the breakfast table lately. :D

Erm, where was I? :o Yes, the Prophecy. I´ll come back to it soon.

Mirdan

07-04-2003, 04:41 PM

thanks for that great link, Halbarad! i've never heard of it before, it's a gold mine! it's like the Harry Potter version of Middle Earth's Encyclopedia of Arda :cool:

Lupin being a werewolf doesn't necessarily mean he would automatically side with the Dark Wizards. i hardly think that his friendship with Sirius and James would not at all have been significant enough that Lupin would be held under suspicion just because he was a werewolf. why else would James and Sirius have risked being animagi, underaged and unregistered? for thrill's sake? maybe. but we don't really know what went on with the Marauders' lives after Hogwarts, but to be sure it was at this time that Voldemort's reign of terror was reaching its peak. granted that James was a lot more closer to Sirius than Lupin, but there's just that nagging voice in my head that keeps telling me that something must've happened other than Lupin's lycanthropy to made Sirius mistrust him. what is was, i can't even imagine at this point.

either that, or it's what lizz said...Lupin was just not around enough. might've been doing something for the Order, i suspect. probably out trying to get the other werewolves to side against Voldemort...

about Slytherin's reputation as a breeding ground of Dark Wizardry...it wasn't so much as generalizing all its members down to the level of becoming Dark Wizards/Witches, but you said it yourself, Elwen -- we see the stories unfold through Harry's eyes. most of the Slytherins that Harry has had a run-on have been quite spiteful, if not malicious (yes they were!), the Quidditch scenes and Malfoy being sterling examples of this group ( :rolleyes: ). we have yet to see a Slytherin that is civil enough towards Harry and his friends. and because of that we simply don't know enough about the rest of the Slytherins, other than its historical alumni and its current members, other than what we see through Harry.

susanna

07-04-2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Pippin

I´m more with Elwen here - even in the first book, the huge surprise in the end was that "not nice" is not the same as "evil". Of course there´s this superficial house rivalry but it´s still there even now. It doesn´t have anything to do with the age of the kids in the story, or of the readers. There´s always been both: JKR has always both used these clear-cut patterns and turned them upside down at the same time.

True - there is this surprise in the end.

I think that in the first book there are these clear-cut patterns - and there is the surprise in the end. There are rules - and there are occasions when the right thing to do is breaking them. There is the pattern - and the reversal.

In the later books the patterns get confused and dissolved. Suddenly there are three sides...

The house rivalry and the house cup still exist - but they are not important any more.

Tiger Louie

07-04-2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Tiger Louie
I'd also have to say, as JKR is a great one for red herrings (and possibly overdid them in HP5) I would question the fact that all dark wizards are Slytherins - as we already know at least one Death Eater was a Durmstrang - so not at all a Slytherin - and perhaps it is only the ones who were either caught or accused who were in Slytherin.

How dreadful! I'm now quoting myself - but I wanted to make a further point about the houses that the Marauders come from. If anything I think we do have some suggestive evidence that Sirius was in Slytherin! I need some help on this - but doesn't Hagrid (as well as Ron) say that all wizards who turn bad were Slytherin. At the time, Hagrid would have still believed that Sirius betrayed the Potters. Equally, there is a good chance that Ron would have heard from his parents if someone had disgraced the Gryffindor spirit and gone to the bad, don't you think?

I need to do a lot of re-reading here, but I'm hardly going to object :D

-------------------
On a different tack now, I remember reading earlier in the thread about the transformations achieved by the Marauders.

We know that Sirius and James were talented wizards and could probably choose freely what animals they could transform into. Peter could not have managed it without their help - I think the choice of animal was probably dictated by his relative lack of talent as an animagus, as well as the marauders' need for a smaller companion to give them access to the whomping willow. By the same token Rita Skeeter's choice of a beetle could have been dictated both by her personal inclination for surrepticious eavesdropping but also a relative lack of talent as a witch.

Tiger

1SmallHobbit

07-04-2003, 07:17 PM

I know that I am late in finishing. I don't have my own copy of OotP and had to borrow it from my friend and did not want to come here until I was finished. I'm going to jump in completely off topic and out of the blue, but I do see that recent conversation involves Sirius and that is the tangent I will go off of...(are we still spoilering??) well, just in case
I can't believe he's gone! He's dead and I can't deal with it!! I cried, well, that's an understatement, I bawled...and then to find that Harry had the mirror all along and it could have made life so much easier! I miss Sirius! The poor man. I'm glad that he was able to die in battle, he wouldn't have had it any other way, as Hagrid said, but he was my favorite character of all of them! I remember a year ago when we had all found out that someone was going to die and we were speculating on who it would likely be, and I said that I would not read any more HP books if it was Sirius, and now look:( - he's gone and dead and I can't believe it. I'm still in denial. I think about the good times we had at the last Yule Ball and it just starts me crying all over again.
Alright, I am quite worn out from that spew...I shall forever miss that character, but I have this feeling deep inside that it won't be the last we hear of him/her. It just can't be! O, I need a hug:(.

Elwen

07-04-2003, 07:43 PM

Oh, 1smallhobbit (is there a short form for your name that you prefer?) Here is a hug from me :hug:

You are not the only one who finds it hard to accept Sirius' death (we are not spoilering in threads with spoiler warnings in the title).

I hope you have seen the thread that is dedicated to discussing this very issue. :) :hug:

----------------------------

Concerning Slytherin : The point is again that we see it from Harry's PoV. Think of it from Draco's PoV.... wouldn't Gryffindor look just as bad from his PoV?

And I have to say I am not sure whether we should make so much of what Hagrid says - and even if we do it doesn't mean that ALL Slytherins are bad. It only says that all bad Wizards are Slytherin - which isn't the same thing.

I don't buy that, though! Not literally, anyway. It would make things far too easy.

Concerning Christmas and Easter - well, they are the winter solstice and the first full moon after spring equinox. No reason to see them as Christian. Neither mistletoe nor Christmas trees are Christian symbols originally.

And Tiger, I think that an animagus has ONE animal shape he can become - I don't think we know whether initially this can be chosen - but ultimately it is one shape. That is why the shape of Harry's patronus is so crucial. The stag is part of the essence of his father's being.

I keep wondering: Will Harry be able to become an animagus, too? :)

Elwen

swiftsnowmane

07-04-2003, 07:54 PM

And what animal would he be if he could? That is what really intrigues me.:)

Onesie! :hug: Head over to the thread dedicated to Sirius.....I know exactly how you feel, I still can't stop crying about it. :(

Pippin

07-05-2003, 04:57 AM

Hi Onesie! :wave: Believe me, there are lots of people here that share your grief. :( :)

In reply to Elwen and Tiger, about the houses: Maybe each Marauder was in a different house then, and in a way they stand for inter-house friendship. On the other hand, they´re all *not* "typical" representatives of their houses, but the living proof that there are a lot of prejudices going around: Being in Gryffindor (James) doesn´t stop you from being an arrogant bully, being in Slytherin (Sirius) doesn´t mean you only mix with Slytherins and are bound to go over to the dark side, being in Hufflepuff (Peter) doesn´t mean that you're "just and loyal". Only Remus makes sense as a Ravenclaw, as far as we know.

Maybe that´s JKR´s point. Although I do get the impressisn that she´s playing with us a little: At times we´re supposed to believe the simple pattern of 'Gryffindor good - SLytherin bad - Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff: who cares', and then again, it´s turned upside down.

Look what you´ve started, Tiger! :eek:

Pilgrim Grey

07-05-2003, 05:01 AM

I thought that the reason that the secret keeper was changed to Peter was because he was the most unlikely person to be entrusted with the secret - Sirius and Lupin were both closer to James, and they were both better at magic, so you'd think that they'd be the secret-keeper.

And I think that in POA they mention that Sirius and James chose to become big animals or something like that, and even if it doesn't I'm pretty sure that you'd be able to choose which animal you become (probably something like the polyjuice potion - when you do the spell you use some part of the animal you want to become). And Harry could definitely become an animagus, it's not like metamorphmagic where you're born with it, so there's no reason why he can't

Mirdan

07-05-2003, 05:50 AM

okay, this might sound a little too far-fetched, but i was rereading the events leading up the death of Sirius, and a lot of strange details stared back at me. i've only just begun precessing them, but tell me what you all think about them. i'll start off with a quote from OotP:

Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room.

The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest.

The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock.
...

It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curbed in a graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch...

And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind and then fell back into place.
JKR didn't really say the exact name of the spell/s that Bellatrix was using while dueling with Sirius. we see that the first spell (whatever it was) was a jet of red light; the Killing Curse is a green light. however, JKR didn't exactly say either the name of the spell that got Sirius, nor its color. but it seems that Bellatrix used the very same spell that finally hit Sirius.

so now, Bellatrix got Sirius with that unknown spell. in GoF, Cedric hardly had any expression on his face when Wormtail killed him with the Killing Curse; there were signs of him reacting to that curse, but he didn't really get around to doing that because he was dead before he even hit the ground (just like Frank Bryce, the Riddles' gardener). he barely had any time to register a distinguishable expression. Sirius, on the other hand, had a range of expressions go through his face -- shock, fear, surprise -- this tells me that he was still conscious as he was falling back into that veil.

soooo...this tells me a few things:

1) Sirius was NOT killed at all by Bellatrix, but he was hit by a nasty spell.
the thing is, one of the Death Eaters also attacked Ginny with a jet of red light that hit her in the face. she's still alive at the end of the book (phew!).
Professor McGonagall was hit by red beams (four Stunning Spells) squarely on the chest. she was hit hard enough to land her in St. Mungo's. she's pretty old too. and she survived.
Hermione received an even more lethal purple-flamed hex; its full force wasn't achieved but it was enough to render her unconscious. Madam Pomfrey said it did a lot of (internal) damage, plus, Hermione's got to take 10 different potions to get better. that sounds pretty awful to me.

2) Sirius was still alive right after he was hit
like i've already said, Sirius reacted to the spell Bellatrix hit him with; he was still conscious
it took awhile for Sirius to fall over. which probably means he was still fighting to keep from falling over
Sirius wasn't knocked unconscious right away. the Killing Curse kills instantly

3) it was actually the veil that killed Sirius. he was immobilized by whatever spell that hit him, and he was obviously surprised that Bellatrix got him. but based on his facial expressions, Sirius was clearly alive when he was keeling over.
had Sirius have fallen elsewhere i'm almost sure that he could've been saved.
Kingsley had taken up Sirius's place and dueled with Bellatrix. BUT...we later see Kingsley getting injured and falling to the ground. if Bellatrix had supposedly "killed" her cousin Sirius, then killing a non-(or distant) relative should be no issue to her. but she didn't kill Kingsley at all. i would say that Bellatrix's aim was only to majorly injure her opponents, but she wasn't really set on killing.
Tonks, another cousin who sided with Dumbledore, was dueling with Bellatrix before Sirius. but she didn't kill Tonks.

this might sound a little too sci-fi, but it would seem that the veil is some kind of portal, a gateway to another realm, or dimension (of the dead?). anyone who crosses this portal won't be able to return, thus making them "dead" to those left behind. this is exactly what had happened to Sirius. he might not have been killed at all by Bellatrix's spell, he only fell into that veil. but what really sets Sirius's death on stone is the acceptance by both Dumbledore and Lupin -- it doesn't seem that Sirius will be able to cross back into this side of the portal, therefore, he's really dead. since we have no clear idea what is on the other side of the veil, i would assume that it is one of those things where no one really knows anything about because no one has ever come back alive to explain what exactly it is...maybe Dumbledore and Lupin know something about it, but we have yet to see how much they really know (or understand) about the veil.

(yeah, i still think Sirius is really dead!)

that's all i have for now. but i do hope i've made some sense! :D

so anyways...i just wanted to add that i'd keep an eye out on the Ravenclaws. having a little more intelligence over the rest does not necessarily account for good judgment ;)

Elwen

07-05-2003, 07:11 AM

Mirdan, that's a good summary... I certainly thought that Sirius wasn't actually killed but rathr that he fell through the arch into the ?world of the Dead - or whatever you want to call it....

Note that as Harry & co. walk past Harry and Luna (the two who can see Thestrals) can hear voices behind that veil, while the others cannot.

I have the feeling that we'll see more of that room and the arch.

I just *hope* that we don't get a cheesy story-line where Harry has to go through the thing and, for some reason, proves to be the first to come back.

PLEASE not that.

I have a feeling that the thing just might be used for contacting dead people... Do I want to see Harry talking to Sirius or his parents through this thing? Not really... but it must be good for *something* (hmmmmm thinking of Odysseus going to Hades to talk to the Dead)....

Elwen

Lady Haleth

07-05-2003, 09:56 AM

a cheesy story-line where Harry has to go through the thing and, for some reason, proves to be the first to come back
Ugh, I was thinking just that. Harry dies by passing through the archway, visits the netherworld, and returns from the dead. Won't that please the fundamental Christians who already despise the HP series?

Tiger Louie

07-05-2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Mirdan
but if i was the Sorting Hat i think i'd've put both James and Sirius in Gryffindor and Lupin would be in Ravenclaw, but slighty leaning towards Gryffindor-ishness :D dunno about Peter, though his later actions show him to be a little more Slytherin than anything else. James and Sirius might've chosen to be placed in Gryffindor (like Harry did)...it seemed that Sirius was already unhappy about his family history, with him running away at pretty young age. so i thought it would only make sense if Sirius chose not to have anything to do with the House that has the reputation similar to his own family.

can't remember whether JKR ever really specified which House/s the Marauders belonged to. i've always thought they were all Gryffindors, though. didn't Hagrid or Dumbledore, or anyone else tell Harry somewhere that his parents were also Gryffindors? i'm not sure if i even read that in the books!

I've been niggling away about Sirius being in Slytherin and I checked back, principally to The Philospher's Stone (Sorcerer's if you've the US version?) and it has strengthened my belief that Sirius was indeed in Slytherin:

1. When Harry goes to Diagon Alley with Hagrid, and Harry's asking about the houses (following his encounter with Draco in Madam Malkin's) - Hagrid says "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin."
2. We know from Prisoner of Azkaban that Sirius was found guilty of murdering Peter Pettigrew who accused Sirius of betraying James and Lily in front of Auror witnesses, which Sirius never denied.

Therefore at the time when Hagrid made that statement, he would have classed Sirius as a follower of Voldemort. If he hadn't been a Slytherin, Hagrid would surely have qualified his statement rather than making it so absolute.

You know, I could really do with an index and appendices when reading these books. Shame JKR hasn't done what Tolkien did with LOTR and put appendices in -(but it would probably give too many clues away, I suppose :(

What do you all think?

Tiger

lizz

07-05-2003, 01:38 PM

Do you really trust Hagrid with that? I think its a mixture of exageration and prejudice.

I have some difficulties seing the Marauders in different houses. it is nowhere said but I always had the strong impression they were all in Gryffindor. People who are in the same house usually spend much more time together. that isnt to say they cant be friends with people of other houses, but in the case of the marauders I see them like H/H/R staying up late, always sticking together, always planning something. Just think about what they did, marauders map, animagi. Rather time consuming I think and much easier when you are in one house.
And a big part of being put in a house is what you value most. Slytherin has a very bad reputation there, but I think its mostly about ambition and achieving yur goals no matter what. Percy would have fit perfectly, but I guess he wanted to be in Gryffindor because all of his family was.
I´m sure slytherin had the "bad" reputation for a long time and sirius surely wouldnt want to belong there. Just listen to what he says about his family. But I can imagine his brother in Slytherin perfectly well.

Tami of Ithilien

07-05-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Elwen
Mirdan, that's a good summary... I certainly thought that Sirius wasn't actually killed but rathr that he fell through the arch that into the ?world of the Dead - or whatever you want to call it....

I have a feeling that the thing just might be used for contacting dead people... Do I want to see Harry talking to Sirius or his parents through this thing? Not really... but it must be good for *something* (hmmmmm thinking of Odysseus going to Hades to talk to the Dead).... Agree about Sirius not being killed by Bellatrix - I assumed the red light indicated she used a stunning spell, and that it was falling through the arch that resulted in Sirius's death. I also have a feeling that Harry might be able to contact Sirius in future via the veil/arch - but I'm pretty certain that Sirius won't be able to come back in any way. That would be a bit of a cop out (much as I'd like him to be able to come back)

re. what houses the marauders were in - I have always assumed they were in Gryffindor, although I don't think it has been specified :confused: I don't think the comments about bad wizards/witches coming from Slytherin contradicts this. Even though Hagrid does not know for sure at that point that Sirius didn't kill James and Lily, I feel he still wouldn't include Sirius in his definition of evil. Maybe he has doubts about Sirius's alleged defection to Voldamort even then.

lizz

07-05-2003, 02:11 PM

I dont think you are right about hagrid not counting sirius as bad. In PoA he calls him a murdeous traiter or something like that, that should be evil enough. ;) I wouldnt put to much weight into his statement, except prejudice or inaccuracy.

I´m defintily sure sirius was killed by the veil, his look of "fear and surprise" when he realised he would fall through is enough for me. But I still want to know how that veil works.

Pippin

07-05-2003, 04:01 PM

Excellent analysis, Mirdan. I´m quite convinced that it wasn´t a straightforward Avada Kedavra that Sirius was hit with, and he was feeling what was happening to him when he fell through the Veil, although he probably didn´t know it had anything to do with the Veil since he fell backwards.

Whether the time delay is an argument for or against A.K. is unclear though.

Alright, “it seemed to take Sirius an age to fall”, but that´s the scene from Harry´s eyes! It´s like the tableau freezes for a moment – if we were in a movie, this would of course be the moment where the action would go into slow motion – but we don´t know if it really took an age.

had Sirius have fallen elsewhere i'm almost sure that he could've been saved. This drives me crazy.

this might sound a little too sci-fi, but it would seem that the veil is some kind of portal, a gateway to another realm, or dimension (of the dead?). anyone who crosses this portal won't be able to return, thus making them "dead" to those left behind. this is exactly what had happened to Sirius.

by Elwen
I just *hope* that we don't get a cheesy story-line where Harry has to go through the thing and, for some reason, proves to be the first to come back.

PLEASE not that.Oh, please not indeed.

More than that, something else I DON`T want to read is an *explanation* as to what happens when you die. I hope JKR doesn’t pretend that anyone in the Wizarding World knows.

I also don´t want relative degrees of being dead, normal dead and Veil dead and whatever.

Dumbledore says “No spell can bring back the dead” and I want it to remain at that.

The ghosts in Hogwarts are funny maybe but I´d hate to meet any of the characters we knew in life as ghosts.

I don´t want to see the living make contact with the dead, either. I mean, they do “come back” regularly in photos, Pensieves, dreams, visions, magical mirrors – but then they´re always either stored memories or the imaginary product of a living person´s mind, which is ok.

Horrible thought I´ve just had, but I have to write it down to get it out of my head:

Can anyone else see Harry walking through the Veil in the end, voluntarily I mean, maybe as a sacrifice to save the rest of the wizarding world, firmly believing he will meet his parents and Sirius again (and all others that might have gone before him by that)? :eek:

I think I´m going into a quiet corner and cry a bit. :(

Elwen

07-05-2003, 04:22 PM

Oh Pippin - I hope not....

But you know, I could see that. But only if Harry gets so wounded (physically or, more likely, mentally) by the fight that he thinks he has to.

(RotK book spoiler)

In which case this would be far too close to Frodo at the Havens. And e can just hope that JKR doesn't copy LotR in this way....

I am still suspicious of the veil thing - if the dpt. of mysteries keeps it it surely has to be 'good for something' doesn't it? :confused:

Elwen

Mirdan

07-05-2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Elwen
I just *hope* that we don't get a cheesy story-line where Harry has to go through the thing and, for some reason, proves to be the first to come back.

PLEASE not that.
NOOOOO! that would kill usssss! :eek:

i hate to say it, but if Harry ever goes through that veil, then i hope he'd stay in it, as in, be dead. i don't think Sirius would be walking out of it, so why should Harry? i've said it before and i'll say it again: some dead characters should just stay dead! :D

besides, if that veil did house the dead, and if Sirius walked out of it alive, then what about Harry's parents? they've been dead longer than Sirius. this would then make the concept of death more flexible in the wizarding world than in the Muggle world, if not obsolete :mad:

Dumbledore says “No spell can bring back the dead” and I want it to remain at that.
me too, Pippin. me too.

Marchwarden

07-05-2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Tiger Louie
I kept imagining Samuel L Jackson as Kingsley as I was reading, although there is a british comedian, Lenny Henry who would probably be good (he's done dramatic roles as well as comedy).

Tiger

I'd been thinking more along the lines of Morgan Freeman ever since I saw him playing the Director of the CIA in "The Sum of All Fears". Stil, SLJ is certainly feasible.

"Hand me my wand. It's the one that says 'Bad M**********r' on it."

Lady Haleth

07-05-2003, 08:59 PM

And e can just hope that JKR doesn't copy LotR in this way....

I'm shocked SHOCKED that anyone would suggest such a thing! ;)

one.elven.girl

07-05-2003, 09:46 PM

One thing I have been pondering for a few days now is Neville's role in books 6 and 7. I do believe that he will indeed become a more prominent character, for a few reasons:
- He'll be getting his own wand, sice his fathers was snapped, and therefore should become a batter wizard, since things don't work as well with comeone else's wand.

- The Prophecy. We now know that there may well be something special about Neville... maybe. It has to imply that there was, but Voldemort didn't think as much of it as he did of Harry.

- Bellatrix Lestrange. Neville and Harry now have this mutual enemy, one who has caused them both greath personal loss, depriving them of parent figures.

hmmm...

Pilgrim Grey

07-06-2003, 09:58 AM

I don't want to say this in case it's true, but what if, seeing as how the arch was in the Dept. of Mysteries, nobody actually knows what it does. I mean, people that have witnessed death (presumably it's only them) can hear the whispers behind the veil, but how is anyone supposed to know what it really does? So maybe the people aren't dead, just trapped somewhere. Or maybe it doesn't kill people, but is sort of like a Dementor's Kiss machine or something, so that Dumbledore thinks that it's better to tell Harry that Sirius is dead rather than tell him the truth - that his soul is gone or he's become a vegetable like the Longbottom's or whatever. I really don't like that idea, because it goes too close to Sirius not being dead/able to come back, but I have a suspicion that it might happen. :(

However, I do like the idea of Harry going back to the arch, if not to go through it, then to just talk to it in the hopes of contacting Sirius, kinda like the mirror of Erised.

And Pippin, you're a genius! That'd be a perfect way to end the series IMO. Mention the arch and the Veil a few more times, set it up as definitely killing people, but then leave it alone, so that people forget it until the end. And then, Voldy kills everyone Harry loves (the Weasley's, Hermione, Dumbledore, everyone) but Harry is able to finally kill him. But then the last chapter sees him back in the Dept. of Mysteries walking towards the Arch:

Harry stood in front of the Arch, fighting back tears and trying not to think about what he was about to do. The veil fluttered, beckoning him towards it, and seductive whispers called to him, called him to come and be with his parents, with Sirius, with Ron and Hermione and everybody.
Dumbledore had told him that he would need to be strong at the end, but was this strength? Was he walking proudly forward to meet death, upright and unafraid like his father had been, or was he running away, to where he would be safe, and where he wouldn’t have to see anyone else get hurt ever again?
He knew that he would have to do it soon, or he would lose his nerve. He stretched out his hand to touch the Veil, but drew it back before he reached it. Perhaps he could do it like Sirius, falling backwards, fully expecting to hit the floor, but instead hitting nothing. He turned his back on the Arch. He rocked on his heels, trying to get up the courage to fall back into death. No. He wouldn’t do it this way. He would meet it face on. Unafraid. Like his father.
He turned back towards the Arch, and tears began streaming down his face. Not bothering to wipe them away, he squared his shoulders, and unflinching he walked through the Arch, and past the Veil. And so he was gone, Harry Potter, the boy who lived, the boy who defeated Lord Voldemort, the boy with the lightening bolt-shaped scar.

You like?

Elwen

07-06-2003, 10:15 AM

Grey Havens

<cough> <cough>

The scene isn't badly written but I really don't like the whole scenario. As much as I like the idea of Frodo giving everything up I don't think taking everything away from Harry and sending him hence would be a good idea (as I pointed out above where I suggested the whole thing).

Elwen

Lady Haleth

07-06-2003, 10:16 AM

ARGH!! :eek:
Everyone dies? Even Harry? My oh my, isn't that an uplifting end to a children's series? Noooo!!!! (I have no fear that Harry, Ron, and Hermione will live happily ever after. JKR is still writing the books for children and to have one of the lead children die would be too disturbing.)

The arch and veil are very curious. Where did it come from and how did it end up in the Ministry? Who built it?

lizz

07-06-2003, 02:06 PM

Poor sirius. Let him be dead and not take away his soul from him or something like that.

I´m curious about the veil, but it to me it sounds like a wizard execution place, with all those stone seats, the veil in the middle. Maybe long out of use because we only heared of Azkaban so far, but still existing?

Kristin

07-06-2003, 05:31 PM

I agree with Elwen in that I don't like the scenario, but I do love that scene you've written Pilgrim Grey. Very nicely done. :)

Here's my nit-picky question ... How could Sirius have disappeared when he went through the arch/veil, and yet at the same time been visible in taking an age to fall? :confused:

swiftsnowmane

07-06-2003, 06:15 PM

I just thought it meant that to Harry it seemed that he took a long time to fall backward, but when he actually fell into the archway was when he disappeared.

Kristin

07-06-2003, 08:44 PM

What I mean is: Sirius's had to be standing just outside the archway. Otherwise, when he fell, his legs would be sticking out of the archway (or half his body, or his feet, depending on how close he was). So assuming that he was close to the archway, he would have disappeared almost instantly, as soon as he fell back a little bit.

swiftsnowmane

07-06-2003, 09:29 PM

I think of it almost like the curse lifted Sirius slightly into the air and he almost gracefully floated downward....

...Ok, ok, so I'm romanticizing his death as much as I can:o , but can you blame me?:(

Mirdan

07-06-2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Kristin
What I mean is: Sirius's had to be standing just outside the archway. Otherwise, when he fell, his legs would be sticking out of the archway (or half his body, or his feet, depending on how close he was). So assuming that he was close to the archway, he would have disappeared almost instantly, as soon as he fell back a little bit.
i agree; Sirius had to have been standing in front of that archway. but how far do you think Sirius was actually standing away from it? because i'm beginning to think that the veil actually sucked Sirius in! if Sirius was about 3 ft. away from the veil, and he's probably about 6 ft. tall (JKR described him as tall, didn't she?), then wouldn't his legs stick out from the archway?

i'm not sure if Harry noticed Sirius staggering backwards, but what if he did? what swifty said about the spell hitting Sirius...what if after Sirius was hit by Bellatrix's spell and was still alive, what if he took a few steps backwards and ended up falling into the veil? there was no trace of his body!

you know it's funny...other than Sirius's death, no one else was said to have died at the confrontation. the Death Eaters didn't kill anyone, nor did the members of the Order. now why is that?!

Bellatrix_Lestrange

07-06-2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Mirdan

you know it's funny...other than Sirius's death, no one else was said to have died at the confrontation. the Death Eaters didn't kill anyone, nor did the members of the Order. now why is that?!

It would have been less dramatic if Sirius' death were merely one of many. Also, JKR needs to escalate gradually. We still have two books to go, although I predict that Book 6 will deliver our first mass-casualty event.

Kristin

07-06-2003, 11:10 PM

I agree that it probably has to escalate.

On the other hand, it would depend on who the other deaths were. If Dumbledore and Lupin had been killed, it would have made Sirius's death less dramatic. But if a couple characters we'd never met before died, then Sirius's death would've still been as upsetting. Remember, there was more than one death in OotP. But there was only one we really cared about.

The fight in the Ministry of Magic wasn't really a battle, more of a skirmish. I say that not because it didn't seem intense (it did) but because I think a true battle will make this one seem minor.

Also, neither side was there specifically to battle the other side. The Order was there to protect Harry and friends and the prophecy. The Death Eaters were there to get their hands on the prophecy. Their main goal was not to defeat the other side.

Oh, and .... Welcome Bellatrix_Lestrange! :)

Bellatrix_Lestrange

07-07-2003, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by Kristin

The fight in the Ministry of Magic wasn't really a battle, more of a skirmish. I say that not because it didn't seem intense (it did) but because I think a true battle will make this one seem minor.

In terms of sheer numbers, there were only twenty-three combatants total. That said, in the WW, numbers aren't everything. When those twenty-three include Lord Voldemort, Albus Dumbledore, several of the 'Most Wanted' Death Eaters, several veterans of the original Order and the Boy Who Lived, that's like a clash of battleships in naval history; there don't have to be scads of them for the engagement to be remembered as a significant event.

Mind you, I suspect that you'll be proven right in 6 or 7 when JKR gives the Intensity Lever another good yank.

Seriphus

07-07-2003, 10:38 AM

I finished the book a few days ago. There's not much more I can think of adding that hasn't been said about it.

I think that what this book really lacked was a storyline. The first four books all had their own stories that gave us information about the wider story being told throughout the whole series. This time finding out information didn't really contribute to a story in its own right, but more to the overall saga.
Saying that, though, it was still a great read and I like the new characters despite the fact that most of them weren't written about in any great detail.
I´m curious about the veil, but it to me it sounds like a wizard execution place, with all those stone seats, the veil in the middle. Maybe long out of use because we only heared of Azkaban so far, but still existing? That's a really good thought about an execution chamber. Isn't it refered to as the 'Death Room' or something at some point in the book, or did I imagine that?

Re: the marauders' houses- I came up with a theory that Sirius was in Slytherin when we were discussing the relationship between him and Snape at KD. There is definitely nothing in the books that says for sure which house they or Lily were in, the only 'clue' as far as I can remember is that in PoA Remus tells wishes Harry good luck with a quidditch match and then rather sheepishly says not that he's siding with any one house.
These are some of my thoughts from KD:

It may be a generalisation by Hagrid. In Chamber of Secrets (The Whomping Willow) it says:

For a few horrible seconds he had feared that the hat was going to put him in Slytherin, the house that had turned out more dark witches and wizards than any other.

which suggests that other houses have produced dark wizards. However, Hagrid seems to have known James and Lily quite well and, therefore, would have known Sirius, so can it have just slipped his mind that Sirius wasn’t in Slytherin when he told Harry that that house had produced every dark wizard?
Then there’s the relationship between Sirius and Snape:

With a roar of rage, Black started towards Snape, but Snape pointed his wand straight between Black’s eyes.
“Give me a reason,” he whispered. “Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will.”
Black stopped dead. It would have been impossible to say which face showed more hatred. ” (Prisoner of Askaban, The Servant of Lord Voldemort)

Obviously there’s going to be tension between them because Sirius was James’s best friend and because Sirius almost killed Snape, but I can’t imagine a confrontation between Snape and James as being this hostile. Snape is by no means on friendly terms with Remus, but he is a lot more tolerant of Remus than of Sirius.
My theory is that perhaps James and Remus were in Gryffindor, but Sirius and Pettigrew were in Slytherin. James and Sirius could have met on the Hogwarts Express, in Diagon Alley or even could have known each other before Hogwarts, and had then been sorted into different houses. They could have still spent a lot of time together: they didn’t have much trouble sneaking around the school with the invisibility cloak and Marauder’s Map.
Sirius being in Slytherin could lead to the loathing between himself and Snape. It could also explain Snape’s jealousy of James if he had wanted to be friends with Sirius himself.

I like the idea that each of them could have been in a separate house, although it's a bit unfair to land Hufflepuff with Pettigrew. :)

Helenia

07-07-2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Seriphus
That's a really good thought about an execution chamber. Isn't it refered to as the 'Death Room' or something at some point in the book, or did I imagine that?

Yes - to be a total pedant (mainly because I noticed it last night after seeing the suggestion here) on p.721 (UK version) Dumbledore says to Fudge " You will find several escaped Death Eaters contained in the Death Chamber." Strange to think that wizards had a need for executions, but it's a very possible explanation for it. What would have happened though - people just got pushed through the veil? Expect we may find out more in the future.

As for the Marauders' houses, I don't think that Sirius and James could have been as close friends as they were if they weren't in the same house. The way the houses at Hogwarts are organised, so that people only know where their common room is and how to get in. Admittedly the Marauders could have shared those details, but they'd have still got some funny looks if they had appeared in the "wrong" common rooms, and they couldn't wear the invisibility cloak all the time! In the books, there are no really close inter-House friendships (although relationships seems to be a different ball game)

I think Hagrid's statement was rather a sweeping one, and not to be taken literally. He's not exactly the brightest of the characters, is he, so it's perfectly plausible for me that he'd forget on occasion.

Lady Haleth

07-07-2003, 11:37 AM

Wow, wizard executions through the death veil. What crime could be so heinous as to warrent a punishment worse than imprisonment at Azkaban and a kiss from the dementors? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Pippin

07-07-2003, 11:54 AM

Posted by one.elven.girl
- Bellatrix Lestrange. Neville and Harry now have this mutual enemy, one who has caused them both greath personal loss, depriving them of parent figures. True. I hope they take their revenge on her between them then. :devil:

Hi Bella! :angel: :D

Lizz, I can see where you´re coming from, the arch could be imagined looking a little like a guillotine :eek: but I don’t think the Veil does anything particularly nasty (other than, well, killing people :().

The irony would be too great – after all Harry didn´t save Sirius´ *life* in PoA, he saved him from something much worse… certainly not to have him suffer the same fate two years later.

Maybe the thing is just stored in the Department of Mysteries because it´s dangerous but can´t or shouldn´t be destroyed.

It seems to me that imprisonment in Azkaban is the worst punishment the Wizarding World knows - at least in Britain, at least nowadays. Remember some DE were found guilty of cold blooded murder and torture - heineous crimes - but "all" they got was a life sentence in Azkaban.

Although I wouldn´t be surprised if the death penalty was among the many blatant deficiencies of the Wizarding World as far as human rights go. :rolleyes:

Grey Havens… I knew I´d read something similar to my theory somewhere! ;)

PG, your scene is well written and moving, but it doesn´t convince me either. I was thinking along the lines of sacrifice rather than suicide when I pondered the idea of Harry going through the veil himself.

Which I don´t think is a likely scenario on the whole. I´m with Lady Haleth, it´s just not likely.

Btw PG, I´m just a hobbit. :o

Posted by Mirdan
you know it's funny...other than Sirius's death, no one else was said to have died at the confrontation. the Death Eaters didn't kill anyone, nor did the members of the Order. now why is that?! I think Bella´s right, Sirius´ death had to stand out, and there has to be gradual escalation – but then, maybe we´re also taking the A.K. curse too lightly, like you just have to point your wand and say the words. I don’t think it´s as simple as that, it´s probably very complex and needs an enourmous amount of power and concentration behind it. Maybe not all wizards, not even all the DE, know how to work it.

Pilgrim Grey

07-07-2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Kristin
I agree with Elwen in that I don't like the scenario, but I do love that scene you've written Pilgrim Grey. Very nicely done. :)

Here's my nit-picky question ... How could Sirius have disappeared when he went through the arch/veil, and yet at the same time been visible in taking an age to fall? :confused:
I was under the impression that the spell pushed Sirius through the Arch. That doesn't really line up with taking an age to fall, but it seems to make the most sense (otherwise, as everyone has said, he'd most likely be half in and half out)

lizz

07-07-2003, 04:55 PM

I guess Sirius was stunned - most of them we stunned, right? - and just fell. I dont think we should take this "it took him an age to fall" literally, Just imagine Harry seeing sirius fall. thats shock everything seems do slow down. and sirius might try not to fall in this direction, but that would be impossible when stunned. And I guess when you just touch the viel there is no way back.

Azkaban and especially the Dementors kiss sound far worse for me than a death penalty. Getting your soul sucked out surely means not getting it back when one dies? So I think Harry still saved Sirius. I hope they veil means dead and nothing else.

Mirdan

07-08-2003, 01:16 AM

maybe it's just me, but the way Sirius died as witnessed through Harry's POV reminds me a lot of how Gandalf fell in Khazad-dûm. go ahead...trout me for thinking that! :D

i wouldn't say most of the Death Eaters stunned the members of the Order; more like hexed them :D and time does seem to stand still and seconds feel longer when something as tragic as Sirius' death happens. maybe in actuality Sirius instantly fell, or maybe it did take him forever to keel over.

so the room with the veil may have ben an execution room then? that's interesting...sounds more humane than a Dementor's Kiss if you ask me. that would also explain the reason for the stone benches, and its resemblance to the courtroom where Harry had his hearing. heck, it could really be anything at this point! ;)

jesuisalleeaujardin

07-08-2003, 01:42 AM

just thoughts after reading some posts _

_ even if sirius were three feet from the veil, i think the force of the stunning spell was strong enough to knock anyone down that far. a six-feet tall man would still have his upper body knocked into the veil, where most of his weight is... and if it were a stunning spell, he couldn't move, even if he had a suprised look on his face.

_ also, i don't think the veil sucked sirius in coz harry walked up to the arch, right? if the veil had powers to suck people in, then harry would have been done in 60 pages or so earlier. i get the impression that the arch waits for the person to step through, willingly or by some outside force _ it doesn't grab people like a vortex would.

_ yes, AK curses kill so quickly there is no time to react in any sort of split second way.

_ yes, interesting that the only people who are written to have heard the whispers beyond the veil are also the people who could see thestrals. could it be the same, though, that the reason that both only harry and luna could hear the voices is coz they are the only 2 who've seen death? or could it be that they simply were just close enough to the veil to hear?

_ i think all four maraurders are in gryffindor. someone mentioned that just coz you were sorted into a house doesn't mean that you possess all the qualities that house is known for _ like harry, sirius could have chose not to be sorted into slytherin, and like harry, the best alternative for him would have been to be in gryffindor.

_ it is either harry or voldie who's gonna die. one or the other. i think this is too simplistically formed, but i think that if harry dies, then that means voldie would have won, and evil would have spread. if voldie dies, then harry would have won, and the world would be rid of the foremost advocate for evil _ evil won't be erased, but the person who weilds it the best would be gone forever. so if harry sacrifices himself... no no no. that's too overused a device already, to trigger heroism, even tho i think i can see everyone including harry doing that, hahaha. ... a third option would be that both harry and voldie die. they both die because it will cost all of harry to get rid of the big V. the big V dies because harry again performed the same trick he did when he was little to stop voldie in the first place.

_ the arch and veil _ yes, it is strange that the arch was inside a room in the ministry of magic... strange that thingy is in the middle of a classroomlike auditorium... if it's a natural anomaly discovered and being studied by people in the ministry of magic, then could it be possible that the whole ministry was built around that void?

_ another theory about the arch and veil _ it's a portal, a never-ending, bottomless pit. so even if sirius recovers from the stunning, the falling, the suprise, he would still need to wingardium leviosa himself to get out, and i guess you could only do so much magicking on yourself, hahaha. ...

_ ya, the arch could just be a trap...

_ if the chamber where the arch and veil are at is called the death chamber whoa _ what a sentence it is. that's asking the punished to step into his own demise, to make him cut himself off from the rest of the world. that's some punishment _ i like the dignity given to the accused. it is, after all, if it is an execution chamber, the last act he will do in this world. ...

_ rowling said she'd tell the world what happens when people in the magical world die :)... so maybe harry will never, never see his parents or sirius again... if he survives his final encounter with voldie.

_ good point about no one else getting killed in ootp _ yes, sirius' death would have been less dramatic had it been one of many. and yes, i agree that the DE were out to get the prophecy, but not kill... but why? if they didn't give a hoots dangit about the kids or the members of the order, why keep them alive? unless it's to torture them into giving away more secrets about dumblydooooore's plans?

_ skirmish vs major battle _ i'd say a skirmish is synonymous with a major battle. if a similar encounter happened elsewhere in england, maybe in the fields near the burrow or so, and it involved non-major characters, i'd call that an encounter... ooh, semantics, hahaha. ...

_ it took an age for sirius to fall... yes, it's a device to show how unbelievable the event was. we could say the same about the twin towers... dare i compare... that it did, also, take them both an age to fall, even if it were only what... 10 seconds each. ...

good night. keep on writing. ...

http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies3/jaune mail.gif

jardin

Pippin

07-08-2003, 10:28 AM

LOL jardin, you´ll be writing a doctoral thesis on HP next! :D I mean that in a good way, who am I to protest against long posts? :o

What was the spell that hit Sirius?

Not A.K. which would have meant instant death, not a stunner because he could still change his facial expressions after he was hit, not "Petrificus Totalus" because petrified people fall back flat on their back without getting a chance for a graceful arc.

To pass beyond the veil, maybe it suffices to touch it. Or to put a part of your body through it. Doesn´t it say that the veil blew slightly forwards and then fell back into place? I think it blew over whatever part of Sirius body was still on "this" side of the arch, and when it fell back, he was gone. That makes sense to me, although it seems physically impossible.

by jardin
could it be possible that the whole ministry was built around that void? That´s a god idea. I mean I have no idea what it could signify but yes, it could be.

by jardin
rowling said she'd tell the world what happens when people in the magical world die That´s exactly what I have a problem with. I don´t want it to be different in the magical world than in the normal world, and I don´t want anyone to explain it, because, well, nobody knows.

by jardin
i agree that the DE were out to get the prophecy, but not kill... but why? if they didn't give a hoots dangit about the kids or the members of the order, why keep them alive? Well, when it was only the DE against the kids, the DE would have killed if they got the chance. Malfoy says "you can kill the others", and one of them actually says half the A.K. spell at some point.

Maybe with the Order / Aurors, it was different because they were on a more even footing with them. I mean I´m sure how eassy or how hard it is to work a spell depends on your opponent, how much of a resistance they put up. Maybe the DE knew it was useless and a waste of time to try A.K. on an Auror in a proper duel.

I won´t trout you Mirdan, because I agree. :D

Helenia

07-08-2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by jesuisalleeaujardin
a third option would be that both harry and voldie die. they both die because it will cost all of harry to get rid of the big V. the big V dies because harry again performed the same trick he did when he was little to stop voldie in the first place.

That's what I'm thinking. If Harry survives after destroying Voldemort, the rest of his life will be somewhat of an anticlimax, not to mention that everyone would still want to know what happened to him and there would be huge pressure on JK to write again. I don't think Harry's going to be able to kill Voldie easily, so he'll come out of it damaged whatever else happens. In a way it would be more merciful for him to die than to have to live on having lost everything....

Elwen

07-08-2003, 12:56 PM

WARNING: this post spoils the very ending of Lord of the Rings if you haven't read the books...

Originally posted by Helenia
That's what I'm thinking. If Harry survives after destroying Voldemort, the rest of his life will be somewhat of an anticlimax, not to mention that everyone would still want to know what happened to him and there would be huge pressure on JK to write again. I don't think Harry's going to be able to kill Voldie easily, so he'll come out of it damaged whatever else happens. In a way it would be more merciful for him to die than to have to live on having lost everything....

can see where you are coming from.... but still - so many of us keep saying just how sad the ending of LotR is - and here we are wishing the same on Harry? Is it a bad thing to lead the rest of your life as an anticlimax? Isn't an anticlimax exactly what Harry has been hoping for for some while?

I don't know - some people loose everythimng in their lives, but does it mean that they should die as well?

To be sure, the reason why Frodo had to leave was that he hadn't just lost everything but also that he was so ill that he could not find healing in ME.

But there are so many people who have lost everything and who still went on and had a very fulfilled life - if you want to go for the extremem quite a few victims of the Holocaust come to mind - people who had lost all relatives and who had gone through hell in back ... Or people who, like Tolkien, incidentally, survived the trenches of WW I biut who lost all their friends in that war....

So I am not at all for an end like that for Harry - unless there is a very good reason for it.

BTW: I do wonder... JKR has already written the last chapter of book 7. Does this mean anything (namely that Harry is dead)?
But then, the whole thing is told through Harry's eyes... does that mean anything?

Elwen

swiftsnowmane

07-08-2003, 02:26 PM

Actually, the whole story is NOT from Harry's point of view. If you remember, in the beginning of the first book, it is basically just a "narrator" type thing, telling us how Dumbledore brought Harry to the Dursleys. Also, in the beginning of GoF there is also a narration-type deal, and then its from Frank's POV. So it is very possible that the end of the books could be the same.

Tiger Louie

07-08-2003, 05:33 PM

I think it is likely that death is a bit different in the magical world compared with the muggle world. For one thing, wizards and witches seem to have a greater lifespan, and they don't appear to have the same ailments as muggles (at least St Mungo's isn't geared up to treat anything non-magical).

Tiger

Telchar II

07-08-2003, 08:47 PM

Re the veil: it's clear that the veil, not Bella, is what kills Sirius. And Lupin knows this, b/c he reacts very badly to watching SB go through. (If it _is_ SB. See my novel above.) Mirdan is absolutely right on this point.

On the larger question of what is it and what is it doing there, I think the Department of Mysteries must be literally full of mysteries. Now there are two ways we can take this -- we can either think of the mysteries as _devices_ -- such as the time-turners -- which are studied. Or we can think of the mysteries as big-picture issues -- like Time itself, which the Unspeakables (and perhaps others) study, perhaps in part by using the devices. So I think that the room with the time-turners was actually the Chamber of Time, full of devices that embody and manipulate time.

If so, this means that the veil is both a symbol of death and an instrument of it -- a death-dealer, if you will, just as the time-turner is a symbol of time as well as a time-turner. If this is so, then the courtroom/execution chamber notion makes sense, particularly if you take seriously the notion that Avada Kedavra truly is an unforgivable curse. If the Ministry has a death penalty, then it needs a way to eliminate the guilty without making a witch or wizard do something unforgivable. (Sounds kind of nasty, really -- the veil may be a killing machine, in some sense.)

The question then of course becomes: what else is there in the Department of Mysteries? Well, the brains in the tank presumably are actual thoughts. (Pomfrey suggests this when she says that thoughts cause deep scars.) So Intellect, or Intelligence, must be a Mystery that is studied. Perhaps that was the Chamber of the Mind.

Dumbledore also gives us another Mystery: he says that it was Love behind the locked door. In other words, the Chamber of Love. (Don't laugh, now.) I wonder what form that Mystery takes? Flame? (I trust it's nothing anatomical.) And how does the love symbol, whatever it may be, work? We know what time-turners do; we think we know what the veil does. If there is a love-turner, for want of a better word, what would it do?

(You can stop laughing now.)

Kristin

07-08-2003, 11:09 PM

:rotfl: I think your "Don't laugh" made it worse! I completely agree with you ... so it's definitely not what you said ... Yes, it probably is Love in that room ... so how does JKR refer to it without making it sound incredibly silly?

Chamber of Love! :rotfl:

Mirdan

07-09-2003, 05:27 AM

Chamber of Love! :rotfl: :rotfl:

and the Department of Mysteries is starting to sound more and more like Area 51! :eek:

Originally posted by Telchar II
the veil is both a symbol of death and an instrument of it -- a death-dealer, if you will, just as the time-turner is a symbol of time as well as a time-turner. If this is so, then the courtroom/execution chamber notion makes sense, particularly if you take seriously the notion that Avada Kedavra truly is an unforgivable curse. If the Ministry has a death penalty, then it needs a way to eliminate the guilty without making a witch or wizard do something unforgivable. (Sounds kind of nasty, really -- the veil may be a killing machine, in some sense.)
:clap: Telchar! a "death-dealer"...it does make a whole lot of sense for that veil to be the wizarding world's version of the Muggle execution chambers! now that i think about it, maybe that veil is a way through which the wizards/witches deal with those tried and convicted of committing a heinous crime (the Killing Curse, for instance). like what you said, Telchar, that veil may serve as a "death-dealer," and it is the "clean way" for the wizards/witches to execute the guilty party without committing the Killing Curse, thus unsullying their own hands and avoid becoming nothing short of those who have been sentenced to death. that makes perfect sense :cool:

Pippin

07-09-2003, 06:04 AM

Telchar, Mirdan, what you´re saying there gives me the CREEPS, honestly! :eek:

There is no "clean" way of taking another human being´s life. Period. :mad:

Honestly: What do you think could be a more heinous crimes than what some of the DE did to the good guys? They used all three unforgivable curses on an every day basis and STILL only got a life sentence in Azkaban. WHO are those "convicted people" then that would be executed by the Veil?

You certainly aren´t suggesting that the Ministry was staging something like human experiments just in order to "study" death and the Veil? Or used other "less important" creatures (goblins, house-elfs) for their experiments?

This is all so downright evil I just don´t believe it. Unless the last time the Veil was used was centuries ago in the dark middle ages or something, that´s the only version of your theory I could live with.

What I do like is your analysis of the room s the Department, Telchar: They seem to be about all the big philosophical questions: What is time? What is love? What is death? How does the mind work? And why do things happen the way they do? (The last being the room with the prophecies.)

Although I must have missed something - what is this about the "Chamber of Love"??? :confused:

I remember Dumbledore tells Harry that´s the big mystery Voldemort will never understand but how do we know there´s a room about it in the Ministry?

Molk Fx

07-09-2003, 08:12 AM

I <3 Cho.

Seriphus

07-09-2003, 08:56 AM

I remember Dumbledore tells Harry that´s the big mystery Voldemort will never understand but how do we know there´s a room about it in the Ministry? 'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries,' interrupted Dumbledore, 'that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you posess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you' (OoTP, chpt 37, The Lost Prophecy).

That's the room (I'm guessing the one that broke Sirius' knife). Dumbledore doesn't say that its love in the room, but its a possibility.This is all so downright evil I just don´t believe it. Unless the last time the Veil was used was centuries ago in the dark middle ages or something, that´s the only version of your theory I could live with. I agree. I think you could be right about it being used a long time ago. It must be well-known in the wizarding world, though, for them to know that Sirius died.

Telchar II

07-09-2003, 09:29 AM

Pippin, I'm not saying I approve of the veil as a killing device, or the equivalent of a lethal-injection machine. I simply think that that may be what it is.

And I agree that there is no "clean" way to inflict capital punishment.

You're right to ask whether the veil is currently used for that purpose, or what crime could be so heinous as to require its use for that purpose. I have no idea.

But, as Seriphus says, everyone seems to know what the veil does, so even if it is not being used to inflict capital punishment, its properties must be fairly well known.

The alternative possibilities aren't too good: how would you just study it? Why have the many benches around it? It is a classroom? Is the room a suicide chamber -- when wizards get very old, and want to end it, do they have farewell ceremonies there? It is rather puzzling and creepy in general.

I wouldn't put it past the Ministry to stage experiments on goblins and house-elves. Or to send animals through the veil, perhaps.

Lady Haleth

07-09-2003, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Telchar II
I wouldn't put it past the Ministry to stage experiments on goblins and house-elves. Or to send animals through the veil, perhaps.
That would truly be shocking to learn. It would change the Ministry from a group of fumbling, close-minded, frustrating bureaucrats to something horribly evil on a par with Voldemort. Arthur Weasley would never participate in or overlook such a practice. Dumbledore would never allow that to continue.

Pilgrim Grey

07-09-2003, 11:08 AM

That's what I'm thinking. If Harry survives after destroying Voldemort, the rest of his life will be somewhat of an anticlimax, not to mention that everyone would still want to know what happened to him and there would be huge pressure on JK to write again. I don't think Harry's going to be able to kill Voldie easily, so he'll come out of it damaged whatever else happens. In a way it would be more merciful for him to die than to have to live on having lost everything....
SPOILERS FOR THE BUFFY ENDING!!!!
They could just have everything being completed with Voldy. Like, Harry kills Voldy, he finishes school, and he's got the rest of his life to do whatever he wants (I have a feeling he wouldn't want to be an Auror after his fight with Voldy). At the end of Buffy, she kills the First Evil, and basically she can do whatever she wants. Everyone asks her what she wants to do now that she doesn't have to be a slayer, and she just smiles. I could see something like that happening with Harry

Actually, the whole story is NOT from Harry's point of view. If you remember, in the beginning of the first book, it is basically just a "narrator" type thing, telling us how Dumbledore brought Harry to the Dursleys. Also, in the beginning of GoF there is also a narration-type deal, and then its from Frank's POV. So it is very possible that the end of the books could be the same.
The thing in GOF was Harry's dream, so it doesn't really count. Although the "prologue" for PS could possibly be mirrored with an epilogue in the 7th book.

Dumbledore also gives us another Mystery: he says that it was Love behind the locked door. In other words, the Chamber of Love. (Don't laugh, now.) I wonder what form that Mystery takes? Flame? (I trust it's nothing anatomical.) And how does the love symbol, whatever it may be, work? We know what time-turners do; we think we know what the veil does. If there is a love-turner, for want of a better word, what would it do?
I'm taking bets on whether or not Harry has to use this to kill Voldy (being devoid of love as he is)... my starting odds are 1:1.. do I have any takers? :D :( :rolleyes:

And I have a feeling that we're going to be speculating on what the Dept of Mysteries does up until the next book - do they study mysterious things, do they collect mysterious things, do they destroy mysterious things etc. and what do they do these things for? Is it for power, is it to understand these aspects of life (as Telchar said)...

And an interesting point came up in Seriphus' transcript from OOTP:
'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries,' interrupted Dumbledore, 'that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you posess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you' (OoTP, chpt 37, The Lost Prophecy).
Dumblerdore's choice of words seem to add weight to Telchar's speculation about the other things in the DOM - Dumbledore's basically saying "this room contains a force more powerful/mysterious/terrible than any of the other forces in the Department", so I think Telchar might be right.

Pippin

07-09-2003, 12:51 PM

Serphy, thank you for bringing that quote here. That´s the one I couldn´t remember! That's the room (I'm guessing the one that broke Sirius' knife). And I think this is a very good guess, too. :)

I was getting really confused about this. I think I mixed it up with the "weapon" the Order said Voldemort was after, which must be the prophecy. Or is it? I mean, do we know for sure that what the Order were guarding all the time was the prophecy and not this room? They were stationed right outside the main entrance to the department, so it could refer to both.

But then, I can´t see how Voldemort could use love (or, in the words of Dumbledore, the strenght of your heart) as a weapon. It´s the very thing he doesn´t understand.

Along the same lines, how can you use love to kill someone? To defeat someone, ok, to survive yourself, ok, but to KILL? :confused:

The fact that Dumbledore and Lupin of all people are so far the only ones that appear to know what passing through the veil means is not very good evidence that everyone knows. On the contrary.

by Telchar
I wouldn't put it past the Ministry to stage experiments on goblins and house-elves. Or to send animals through the veil, perhaps.That wouldn't only be shocking, it would also prove that The Quibbler with its Goblin-crushing reports would have been right. :eek: :D

by PG
(I have a feeling he wouldn't want to be an Auror after his fight with Voldy). I have a feeling you might be right there. Good thought. :)

Elwen

07-09-2003, 04:18 PM

Lots of great thoughts there - and nothing for me to add... just to read in awe. :)

I have been won dering about the careers of the main characters, though....

The question is whether one needs Aurors if V is gone? Proba bly zes. But I agree that Harry won't want to do this.

I have a feeling that Hermione or Harry will end up with plans to teach at Hogwarts - it is the more logical thing for hermione because she is so studious - but Harry might be needed for DADA.

I hope Ron (if he makes iot through book 7) gets a well paid job!!!

Elwen

Tiger Louie

07-09-2003, 04:23 PM

Ron could make a living as a wizard chess grand master! I haven't noticed that he has any particular academic talent, though.

Harry could teach DADA (and DA is a promising trial run). He's also pretty good at Quidditch, could play professionally. That's 2 non auror options for him.

Hermione won't be rushing to apply as a divination teacher - but she's pretty strong on most other subjects if she wanted to teach.

Neville has herbologist written all over him (not literally, I hope).

Fred and George are heading for wizard multi-millionairedom, I reckon. They do reckon that loads of entrepreneurs were academic non-conformists or drop-outs. NEWT-less Gred and Forge fit the profile! Kerr-chingg!

Tiger

Seriphus

07-09-2003, 05:00 PM

I wouldn't put it past the Ministry to stage experiments on goblins and house-elves. Or to send animals through the veil, perhaps. Well we've already seen that the MOM has no problem with executing animals and Buckbeak's death would not have been a pretty sight. :( But then, I can´t see how Voldemort could use love (or, in the words of Dumbledore, the strenght of your heart) as a weapon. It´s the very thing he doesn´t understand. Maybe it's something to do with the 'Green Flame Torch' (rumoured title of book 6) that "strenghthens good and weakens evil" -or something. I've no idea whether it's presence in the books is actually true, partly true or a load of ballacks, (though probably the latter).

Cedric

07-09-2003, 05:15 PM

The rumors of the "Green Flame Torch" have been going around since before GoF came out... It's been the rumored title of that and every book till now... I think it started because of some Fan Fic... It's probably not real.

-Cedric

lizz

07-09-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Pippin

I was getting really confused about this. I think I mixed it up with the "weapon" the Order said Voldemort was after, which must be the prophecy. Or is it? I mean, do we know for sure that what the Order were guarding all the time was the prophecy and not this room? They were stationed right outside the main entrance to the department, so it could refer to both.

We dont know for sure, but I´d guess iot was the prophesy, partly because nobody wanted to tell Harry what the order was guarding. And they didnt say they guarded a weapon, only something like a weapon. the prophesy as a weapon for Voldemort. He wants to know everything that was said to make plans according to that.

by pippin

But then, I can´t see how Voldemort could use love (or, in the words of Dumbledore, the strenght of your heart) as a weapon. It´s the very thing he doesn´t understand.

Along the same lines, how can you use love to kill someone? To defeat someone, ok, to survive yourself, ok, but to KILL? :confused:

I´d see it the other way round, not as a weapon for Voldemort but a weapon to defeat Voldemort. He doesnt understand it, he cant judge emotion, cant deal with it or predict how people will act because of love. He counts on fear.

Telchar II

07-09-2003, 09:55 PM

originally posted by Lady Haleth
That would truly be shocking to learn. It would change the Ministry from a group of fumbling, close-minded, frustrating bureaucrats to something horribly evil on a par with Voldemort.

Something unspeakably evil, perhaps?

Scytale

07-09-2003, 10:44 PM

Ron could make a living as a wizard chess grand master! I haven't noticed that he has any particular academic talent, though.

Ron being good at chess implies that he's good at seeing the big picture, which might mean he could be on the way to becoming the minister for magic. We wouldn't see that probably in the books because it ends with their shcooldays but maybe there's a prophecy somewhere. It'd be nice justice for the Weasleys being sidelined because they like Muggles.

Mirdan

07-09-2003, 11:57 PM

You certainly aren´t suggesting that the Ministry was staging something like human experiments just in order to "study" death and the Veil? Or used other "less important" creatures (goblins, house-elfs) for their experiments?

This is all so downright evil I just don´t believe it. Unless the last time the Veil was used was centuries ago in the dark middle ages or something, that´s the only version of your theory I could live with.
Pippin, i'm looking back at my last post to try and figure out what exactly made your skin crawl (or maybe i'm just hopelessly dense), but like Telchar, i never said that i find the taking of one's life acceptable :confused: all i did was try and expand on what was already laid out. and i never said that there is such a thing as a "clean way" of execution -- the quotation marks over the phrase was meant to imply that there really is no way of doing such a thing.

the thing is, the reason why i think Telchar's theory on the veil makes a lot of sense is mainly because of where is was found -- inside the Department of Mysteries. remember that no one, not even Mr. Weasley knows exactly what the Unspeakables are doing in there. we've already seen some of the other rooms in this department and how dangerous the objects that they house potentially are. i wouldn't be surprised, though, if that veil turns out to be what Telchar theorizes it to be. as some have already wondered, what could be more worse than committing the Unforgivable Curses? i have no idea what, but whether the Ministry is trying to develop the veil as a device for dealing out capital punishment really remains to be seen.

i wouldn't exactly go so far as to suggest that the Ministry would use non-human beings as test subjects. but i wouldn't put it past through the Ministry, either, if they were doing so. just because they're the "good guys" doesn't automatically mean they're wholly innocent of committing the same acts as the DE. remember that in GoF the Ministry allowed the Aurors to use the same tactics as the DE in order to try and catch them. granted that the purposes were different, but that's really no excuse for authorizing (let alone legalizing) the use of the Unforgivable Curse on a fellow human being (which just so happened to be a Death Eater).

this is a bit out of context to what i've been going on, but let me ask this: what could really be worse than administering the Dementor's Kiss on the guilty party? what could be worse that walking around (if that's possible) without a soul? that sounds far worse than death.

Colli

07-10-2003, 12:12 AM

*phew* I had to go back to page 6..

:wave: Hi Misty, one.elven.girl (who still has 2 periods!), Marchwarden, Telchar II, Halbarad, Limeth, Helenia, Onesie (welcome back!!!!!), Bellatrix_Lestrange, and Molk
By StarGazr
I didn't feel like the reader was given time to mourn his death. It happened... Harry freaked out, Lupin didn't really grieve (which he SHOULD have)... then it was business (almost) as usual. There was no grieving... *shrugs* I guess I just don't know how to feel about it because it happened so fast.
But that’s the point, that death can just happen like that. For instance, on battlefields on earth death happens, but life doesn’t stop around you, you have to keep on going. I’m sure there will be more grieving than what we saw, but sheesh, the book was already almost 900 pages. ;) It will be interesting to see how Harry fights trying to turn cold and bitter (maybe like Frodo?) in the summer of Book 6.

TelcharII, I’m impressed. Well thought out! Not sure I agree either, but it’s definitely a possibility.
By Moxie
Maybe Crabbe and Goyle are as stupid as they seem because of inbreeding?
Mua-hahahahahahaha
By Tiger Louie
I kept imagining Samuel L Jackson as Kingsley as I was reading
Exactly. :D Although that’s one for the movies forum. :)
By Mirdan
i was reading PoA again the other night, and i noticed something a little strange when i got to that confrontational scene at the Shrieking Shack. isn't it a bit odd that rather than choosing Lupin as the alternate Secret Keeper, Sirius went for Peter? and then later on, Lupin even admits that he suspected Black of being a double agent even before the Fidelius Charm was cast on the Potters. i wonder if this has anything to do with their work for the Order. there must've been some point in time when something had happened between the Marauders to make them act suspicious of each other. what made Sirius choose Peter over Lupin in the first place? from what we've seen in OotP, it has always been James, Sirius, and Lupin who were closer to each other than they were to Peter. and again, in OotP, Lupin seemed to almost always be busy with something, though we don't really know exactly what it was that he did. Sirius would probably just the same if he wasn't on the wanted list of both the Muggle and wizarding world.
Maybe because both Sirius and Lupin knew that the other was very powerful, whereas they considered Peter a very weak and insignificant wizard. Also consider Voldemort’s following: would he be more likely to have a short little fat man or a werewolf? Or a pureblood from a long line of semi-dark wizards (with a brother who had been a Death Eater)? (and it seems Marchwarden beat me to the punch :))
By Halb
I'm wondering though whether Dumbledore's sympathy for mixed bloods, from Lupin to Hagrid to Centaurs, is not purely political correctness, but has some basis in magic itself.
That’s an interesting observation. It was said in OotP that all pureblood families were related somehow (and I mean this seriously, no West Virginia jokes intended)… so it seems there is opportunity for the slightest bit of inbreeding. And everyone knows from Genetics class that inbreeding can result in the weakening of the genes of the offspring. So maybe keeping things mixed up is a good thing, and half-giants, werewolves, and mudbloods have opportunity to be more powerful than pureblood wizards.

Now, it seems I missed a lot of the Legilimens discussion, but I wouldn’t doubt that Lupin’s had some training as well.
Prisoner of Azkaban, Cat Rat and Dog
“But then . . . ,” Lupin muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind, “. . . why hasn’t he shown himself before now? Unless” – Lupin’s eyes suddenly widened, as though he was seeing something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see, “—unless HE was the one . . . unless you switched . . . without telling me?”

And I find it interesting that the year Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs became Animagi and the year Sirius played that awful joke on Severus was the same year we saw Sirius and James dangling Severus upsidedown. It seems Lupin never really played an active part..

Tiger Louie

07-10-2003, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Colli
And I find it interesting that the year Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs became Animagi and the year Sirius played that awful joke on Severus was the same year we saw Sirius and James dangling Severus upsidedown. It seems Lupin never really played an active part..

In Lupin's own view, he doesn't see himself as any less guilty or responsible for what happened. Doing nothing is as bad. But as someone has already pointed out on this board, Lupin had spent so much time shunned and friendless, he cut his friends far too much slack even when he didn't like what they were doing and knew it to be wrong.

I hadn't noticed that it was the same year they became animagi, well spotted.

Tiger

Elwen

07-10-2003, 04:37 AM

I love this discussion - just two weeks ago I found it so difficult to find someone to discuss this book with and now there are so many great ideas and views, and so many people participating. I am rereading the book now and all your ideas make me see things differently!

I have just discovered something odd. Perhaps a little snippet, but still...

OotP, p. 300 ('In the Hog's Head'):

The barman sidled towards them out of the back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long grey hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.

Dumbledore's brother, perhaps? Or anyone of the people on the photograph?

Harry doesn't know all that many people of the earlier generation, and Noody's photograph could be a good source for that feeling that he had seen the man before. And not many people on Moody's picture are still alive, apart from the fact that we hear twice that Aberforth Dumbledore is 'a strange bloke', as Moody puts it.

Elwen

Seriphus

07-10-2003, 06:38 AM

Now, it seems I missed a lot of the Legilimens discussion, but I wouldn’t doubt that Lupin’s had some training as well. Yeah I noticed that. Here's another example:

'Yes,' said Harry. He hesitated, and then the question he had to ask burst from him before he could stop himself. 'Why? Why do they affect me like that? Am I just -?'
'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read Harry's mind. (PoA, chpt 10, The Marauder's Map).The barman sidled towards them out of the back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long grey hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry. Yes interesting, a few people have mentioned him. I wouldn't be surprised if Aberforth turns up at some point in the books. We've heard quite a few snippets about him.In Lupin's own view, he doesn't see himself as any less guilty or responsible for what happened. Doing nothing is as bad. I think he's too hard on himself, doing nothing isn't good, but it's no way near as bad as what James and Sirius did.The rumors of the "Green Flame Torch" have been going around since before GoF came out... It's been the rumored title of that and every book till now... I think it started because of some Fan Fic... It's probably not real. Thanks Ced. It's the fact that it's been around so long that made me think it may have some fact behind it, that and a link to the Hand of Glory in CoS.

Pippin

07-10-2003, 02:56 PM

Posted by Elwen
I have a feeling that Hermione or Harry will end up with plans to teach at Hogwarts - it is the more logical thing for hermione because she is so studious - but Harry might be needed for DADA. I used to think that Hermione was destined for teaching… but now I see how great she´s at organising stuff, having ideas as well as going through with them (DA, Rita Skeeter´s interview) I can easily see her as the first ever female Minister of Magic! Although of course we´ll never see that in the books themselves.

I´ve got my money on Ron becoming a professional Quidditch player after all. Maybe Harry´s better but Ron seems so much more into it! At least I always think Ron makes a more *convincing* Quidditch geek than Harry.

by Tiger
Fred and George are heading for wizard multi-millionairedom, I reckon. They do reckon that loads of entrepreneurs were academic non-conformists or drop-outs. Yes, they´re just the type for that, I can so see it! The flashy dragon scale jackets were a nice start.

Posted by lizz
I´d see it the other way round, not as a weapon for Voldemort but a weapon to defeat Voldemort. He doesnt understand it, he cant judge emotion, cant deal with it or predict how people will act because of love. He counts on fear. I agree with that. We know Voldemort has two major weaknesses: He doesn´t understand love and he fears death. If you combine the two, you get exactly the reason for his first downfall: He didn´t understand the ancient magic about someone loving another person so much they were ready to die to save them. And I have a feeling that the same thing will be his downfall again. Does it mean we´re going to witness more heroic sacrificial deaths? :eek:

Mirdan, I found your and Telchar´s theories creepy in themselves, not the way you talked about them or your judgement of them. I think we´re quite in agreement on this. :)

I don´t trust the Ministry at all… they´re so quick at making new laws about everything, as if just making things legal made them right. :mad: They seem to be very quick at coming up with “extraordinary situations require extraordinary measures” excuses. That´s just dangerous.

On Wormtail as the Potter´s secret keeper (again), it was Sirius´s choice, wasn´t it? Not even Dumbledore (who´d usually have the last word on things like these, I suppose) didn´t know they changed at the last minute. Doesn’t Sirius say expressly in PoA that he thought it was the perfect bluff, Wormtail being the one Voldemort would *least* expect to be chosen for such an important and dangerous position? It´s from *Voldemort's* POV that we need to look at this. For Voldemort, Sirius and Lupin were more likely candidates because they were James´s best friends and generally brave and cool. It´s not about them being werewolves and potentially dark, it´s about Wormtail not being enough of a hero, that´s why he was chosen.

Quoted by Colli
“But then . . . ,” Lupin muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind, “. . . why hasn’t he shown himself before now? Unless” – Lupin’s eyes suddenly widened, as though he was seeing something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see, “—unless HE was the one . . . unless you switched . . . without telling me?” Quoted by Seriphus
'Yes,' said Harry. He hesitated, and then the question he had to ask burst from him before he could stop himself. 'Why? Why do they affect me like that? Am I just -?'
'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read Harry's mind. :clap: Those are amazing finds, Colli and Serphy! Well done!

You know when I got to Occlumency and Legilimency in OotP, spoiled as I was by JKR´s usually great technique of giving lots of clues before the big revelations, I was a little irritated, like “why have we never heard of this before?”, but we have! Thanks for pointing this out.

Posted by Elwen
Dumbledore's brother, perhaps? Or anyone of the people on the photograph? Sounds plausible. I´m sure we haven´t seen the last of Aberforth Dumbledore (I love that name! :D). I mean, to be precise we haven´t even seen the first of him yet. ;)

Moxie

07-10-2003, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
I used to think that Hermione was destined for teaching… but now... I can easily see her as the first ever female Minister of Magic!

I expect there has already been at least one witch heading up the Ministry, considering that Elfrida Clegg led the Wizards' Council in declaring the Golden Snidget a protected species back in the 1300s (Quidditch Through The Ages, p. 11-14). Incidentally, I got the impression that Rita's interview was a joint Hermione-Luna brainstorm; both were present, and Luna's father runs The Quibbler, after all. With Hermione's brains and Luna's ...imagination, who knows what else this particular team could get up to?

Colli

07-10-2003, 06:50 PM

:D There's an unlikely pair, Hermione and Luna! :LOL:

(edit) And I do mean that as friends :p

Elfëa

07-10-2003, 06:53 PM

Colli! :p

So, where's this discussion heading?

I just wonder if this a place where's discussion about the first reaction... (I've been away tooooooo long... :o)

jesuisalleeaujardin

07-10-2003, 09:47 PM

that hooded fellow at the hog's head was mundungus. i can't remember where at in the book, but one of the order said it _ i think it's sirius, coz i remember reading that he chided hermione on choosing a less crowded bar where your every move, times 27 people, could be tracked. i think that by that point in the book we've all, as readers, have forgotten that harry is watched everywhere he goes, so by mentioning that he looked familiar to harry, we're reminded of one of the order's tasks.

anticlimax _ ya, i agree that there's nothing wrong with living an anticlimactic life. everyone does it. :) not to sound curt, but after graduating from high school, we're all alive still, so now we need to think of what we really want to do with the rest of our lives. it's boring, it's a little discouraging, but that's how it is _ we've become free to pursue other interests, given time to crystallize what else we want to do. :)

with frodo's case, it's hecka tragic _ if it turns out that the only fulfilling thing in our life was that which burdened us for so long... akin to a job, maybe? hahaha _ reminds me of that couple in the film amelie _ that man who punched the leaves of his wife's plants. he's retired and says he needsta find something to make him relax. ...

edits post three hours later :o

WHEW! i hadta go back several pages as well, just so i won't flail about trying to decipher all the thoughts swimming in my head. ...

just to clarify... by "device" i meant literary device :)... anyways, i'm still miffed that sirius was killed off... a co-worker approached me and said that she remains hopeful he'll come back somehow... so i reread several posts to glean any sort of justified hope :o ... while i think it'll devastate harry to have sirius come back, this thought wormed its way into my mind and onto my online journal after my talk with the co-worker:

thinking about that book right now just makes me sad... i'm a little mixed as to whether i want him to come back or not. harry and everyone's almost resolved that he's dead. hmm. i haven't thought yet about what happens when someone does come back to life _ it's happened to MIAs and POWs who've been written off for dead, and i wonder how their families and friends felt learning they're... back from the dead.

so yes, if sirius is as talented as we think he is, it's entirely possible that he would take matters into his own hands and switch places with bellatrix. this way, dumbledore's info that "he died" won't entirely be wrong, because anyone who's ever tossed into that arch will die by means we're not told yet. so, dumbledore remains infallible!

but the problem with that is if sirius' name was blasted off #12 grimmauld place's tapestry! :( so pippin, i'll join you in your corner... we'll cry together. ...

but no, telchar, i don't think rowling was howling with mirth while she wrote that scene :LOL: ... she's ruthless, but not that... i think... i hope? hahaha. ...

ootp doesn't say what exactly to the members of the order do, so if snape is a spy, then there's more than one spy in the big V's cult... but again why, though? sirius would switch if he didn't trust snape completely. we're not told how much they've reconciled... also i wonder just how bella-sirius is supposed to safely bring back info to dumbledore. ...

hmm... here's another theme... remember how ron and hermione were forced to keep everything a secret from harry? that theme of secrecy's sprinkled throughout the book _ right from the hiding of grimmauld place, to hiding the ministry of magic in plain sight (via an old phone booth), to the department of mysteries. ...

today the british version of the book arrived in the mail, so i can reread all of rowling's subtleties, and not worry about who's turn it is to have the book for tonight in my family!!!

http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies3/prosper.gif

jardin

Telchar II

07-11-2003, 01:49 PM

Thanks, Colli! let's keep our fingers crossed!

Mirdan -- while I had thought of the veil as execution chamber, I was not the first to propose it here; I think someone further up proposed it. I take no credit!

Colli and Seaphy -- another example of Lupin's skill as a Legilimens is at the beginning of OotP.
When the advance guard arrives, and Harry's looking at them look at him, Harry wonders to himself why all these people are here. Lupin immediately says that "A surprisingly large number of people volunteered to come."

KillerBunny

07-11-2003, 11:13 PM

Wow... my head kind of hurts now... it's absolutely fascinating to read all of this. Pilgrim Grey, your scene brought tears to my eyes, even though I think it would be a bit too depressing of an ending for me:( I also love the Sirius/Bella theory. It's a bit of a stretch, but even so, it makes a lot of sense. Now I'm going to be driven crazy, waiting to see the family tree tapestry (er.. whatever it's called).

I'm a little disappointed because I had sort of a theory going that Kingsley used the Imperius Curse on so and so when she gave away the D.A., and that would explain the blank look on her face and such. But then I read the part where Dumbledore said he just modified her memory. Bah! :mad:

Well, this isn't a huge thing, really, and it isn't from OotP... but has anyone else been bothered by the similarities between Harry and Tom Riddle? Their appearance, both Parselmouths, half-bloods... it's basically what Riddle says at the end of CoS, but I don't think it's a coincidence. What it means exactly, I don't even want to begin to think, because I'm horrible with theories.

I thought it was strange that Harry's Parselmouth-ness (er..) hasn't been mentioned at all lately. And Colin Creevey? Where was he? (Not that his absence was a bad thing :D but... it was still weird)

And what about Crookshanks? I have a theory (though a shaky one) about Crookshanks, actually. I have a feeling that he's (she's?) a lot more than just a cat.

Okay, that sounded stupid, but I'm tired. It's been a long day.

Maybe I'll try to post again later when my mind is working better... and perhaps after I've reread the book at least once.

Great thread though... actually all the threads here are great... I love all this lovely analyzing of Harry Potter :D

Pilgrim Grey

07-12-2003, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by KillerBunny
Pilgrim Grey, your scene brought tears to my eyes, even though I think it would be a bit too depressing of an ending for me:(.

Well, this isn't a huge thing, really, and it isn't from OotP... but has anyone else been bothered by the similarities between Harry and Tom Riddle? Their appearance, both Parselmouths, half-bloods... it's basically what Riddle says at the end of CoS, but I don't think it's a coincidence. What it means exactly, I don't even want to begin to think, because I'm horrible with theories.

And what about Crookshanks? I have a theory (though a shaky one) about Crookshanks, actually. I have a feeling that he's (she's?) a lot more than just a cat.

Firstly, sorry for making you cry :) But I'm glad you thought it was that good :)

Secondly, I think the similarities between Harry and Riddle were explained away in COS (because of the spell - they have a link or something) but I still think that there is something more to it. I think JKR's doing her usual "choices maketh the man" - the pair are similar, but Harry chose to be friends with Ron, and to be in Gryffinfor etc. but there could be even more than that to it (bizzare as wizard families are ;))

And thirdly, the idea that Crookshanks is whole or half kneezle (sp?) has been brought up before, and it sounds like it might be true. Kneezle's are found in the book of animals-tie in that JKR wrote. I don't have that so I can't tell you what it says, but I'm sure some other people could. Kneezle's are also mentioned offhand in OOTP (which raised my suspicions even more - NOTHING is offhand or irrelevant in HP :p)

Pippin

07-12-2003, 10:05 AM

Once more back to the Department of Mysteries, I just came across a little piece of information, very well hidden in the footnotes of the introductory chapters of “Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them” (on of the charity books). It says that all Departments in the Ministry are answerable to the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, “with the possible exception of the Department of Mysteries”. :eek:

This makes it rather plausible that there could be things going on in there even the official magical laws wouldn´t allow.

Posted by KillerBunny
Well, this isn't a huge thing, really, and it isn't from OotP... but has anyone else been bothered by the similarities between Harry and Tom Riddle? Their appearance, both Parselmouths, half-bloods... it's basically what Riddle says at the end of CoS, but I don't think it's a coincidence. It might very well be a “huge thing”, Bunny! I used to think that Voldemort was kind of Harry´s “dark twin”, I don´t mean they´re related or anything, but I think this ties in nicely with Dumbledore´s famous “it´s our choices, far more than our abilities, that make us who we are”, as PG has already pointed out. Voldemort was extremely gifted magically, he was quite brave, too, and had the same "thirst to prove himself” that the Sorting Head saw in Harry, but his choices led to him becoming the terror of the wizarding world, rather than employ his abilities in a way that served everyone. Maybe the initial similarities between Harry and Voldemort are supposed to teach Harry (and us) how easily you can go wrong and how much it matters that you make the right choices (and get the right help from mentors and friends).

I thought it was strange that Harry's Parselmouth-ness (er..) hasn't been mentioned at all lately. And Colin Creevey? And what about Crookshanks? Well, Crookshanks is there. Hovering on the edge of some scenes, just close enough for us not to forget about him. So are the Creeveys. They´re in the DA! Anyway, the fact that someone isn´t mentioned for a whole book doesn´t mean they´re gone forever. Think of the centaurs, I´d positively forgotten about them until Firenze turned up again in OotP.

And we surely will hear Harry speak to snakes again. Has he talked to Voldemort´s giant snake (Nagini?) yet?

Crookshanks, btw, is very probably a Kneazle, or half-Kneazle..

From “Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them”:

The Kneazle is intelligent, independent and occasionally aggressive, though if it takes a liking to a witch or wizard, it makes an excellent pet. The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters and can be relied upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost. It also says they can inter-breed with cats.

I wonder if we will see Crookshanks guiding Hermione safely home one day? :)

These little books are really a treasure trove! FBaWTFT even mentions the “Disillusionment” charm that Moody puts on Harry to get him to Grimmauld Place undetected.

Seriphus

07-12-2003, 02:01 PM

But then, I can´t see how Voldemort could use love (or, in the words of Dumbledore, the strenght of your heart) as a weapon. It´s the very thing he doesn´t understand.

Along the same lines, how can you use love to kill someone? To defeat someone, ok, to survive yourself, ok, but to KILL?
I've been giving a bit of thought to this and I don't think that Voldemort needs to understand love in order to use it as a weapon. It doesn't need to be used as the final means in killing Harry, and as you say, I don't see how it could, but as long as Voldy understands how love affects other people and how he can therefore manipulate them it is a very useful tool for him. In fact he used it as a weapon in book IV.
I was wallowing in my latest bout of greiving for Sirius when I thought of this line:

'Aaaaaah ... did you love him, little baby Potter?' (OoTP, chpt 36, The Only One He Ever Feared)

Harry went to the MOM to rescue Sirius because he loves him. Voldy knew he would do this. He used Harry's love for Sirius to try to get the prophecy. As Dumbledore says:

'Like the fact that the person Sirius cared most about in the world was you,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'Like the fact that you were coming to regard Sirius as a mixture of father and brother. ...Kreacher's information made him realise that the one person for whom you would go to any lengths to rescue was Sirius Black.' (OoTP, chpt 37, The Lost Prophecy)

He could just as well use Harry's love for any one else to lure him into a situation where Harry is vunerable enough for him to be killed (or not if Harry has learnt enough from his experience at the Ministry to avoid future traps). Love can be a powerful 'weapon' for either side, be it because the way it takes hold of people can leave them exposed and can lead them to do things that appear irrational, or because it causes people to act selflessly and unpredictably (and of course we know what powerful protection it can provide).

Also I wonder what the significance of Luna's surname might be?

My other thought for the day was the fact that all the Weasleys have royal names and 'Weasley is our king'. Coincidence? :rolleyes:

Telchar II

07-12-2003, 07:28 PM

Seraphy -- Does Luna give good love? Will we find out? And to whom?

Killer Bunny -- Thanks for your approval of my desperate theory! And I think you answered your own question: why not call it the "family tapestree"?

KillerBunny

07-12-2003, 08:11 PM

Yeah... most of my ideas were pretty obvious... I had been running slightly low on sleep and energy when I wrote that post :D

Anyway, I've been doing a little bit of "research" looking for things in the books that could be considered clues to stuff... and I noticed a few things:

1. In Book One, when Harry is at Mrs. Figg's house and she is telling him about all her cats (or he's remembering her telling him about the cats), one of the names mentioned is "Tibbles". Then in OotP, after she reveals herself to have been following Harry, she mentions a "Mr. Tibbles" helping her locate him. Hmm... and this ties in with #2...

2. This is partly based on something I read on another site. The basic gist of what they wrote is that: A) Mrs. Figg's house smells like cabbages and cats. B) The Apocethary in Diagon Alley smells like cabbage. C) The Polyjuice Potion tastes like over-cooked cabbage. Since the potion must get several ingredients from an Apocethary, they concluded that Mrs. Figg may be using the Polyjuice Potion (can Squibs still use it? Or does it have to be a witch or wizard?). From the "Mr. Tibbles" thing, I got the idea that Mrs. Figg's house may be home to more than one person. Perhaps several other people are taking the potion to turn into cats? Also, there's the fact that Hermione accidentally turned herself into a cat with the potion, which may be more foreshadowing by Rowling.... while I have no idea WHY all these people would want to turn into cats, but I thought it was worth noticing.

3. In CoS, while Riddle is talking to Harry, he said something along the lines of "I'm very skilled with charming people", and remember Rowling said the fact that Lily's wand was good for charm work would be important... maybe it's a link to Voldemort somehow?

That's all I can really think of right now... I'm sure I'll have more soon... with my obsessive-compulsiveness and all;)

Oh, and I just remembered something: the Time-Turner in PoA! It was used to save Sirius' life before... couldn't they have used it to go back in time to keep Harry from breaking into Umbridge's fireplace and make him use the mirror instead? I'm sure there'll be a thousand reasons why this wouldn't work... but they might've considered it... :(

LoonyLovegood

07-13-2003, 02:15 AM

what do you all think of Harry and I...?

speculation. purely speculation, that is.
truth be told.

LoonyLovegood

07-13-2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by Telchar II
Seraphy -- Does Luna give good love? Will we find out? And to whom?

Killer Bunny -- Thanks for your approval of my desperate theory! And I think you answered your own question: why not call it the "family tapestree"?

and yes, i believe i do, thanks.

mallorniphredil

07-13-2003, 03:22 AM

After re-reading the book, I still can't get Luna. :D

I speculate, though, that she will have a role to play in books 6-7. When Hagrid is telling Harry about Voldemort in SS, he says that Voldemort had killed many of the great wizarding families of the time... including the Bones, the Prewetts, and the Lovegoods. Luna is in Ravenclaw, meaning that she is intelligent. ..
Hmmmmm....

Pilgrim Grey

07-13-2003, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by KillerBunny
Yeah... most of my ideas were pretty obvious... I had been running slightly low on sleep and energy when I wrote that post :D

Anyway, I've been doing a little bit of "research" looking for things in the books that could be considered clues to stuff... and I noticed a few things:

1. In Book One, when Harry is at Mrs. Figg's house and she is telling him about all her cats (or he's remembering her telling him about the cats), one of the names mentioned is "Tibbles". Then in OotP, after she reveals herself to have been following Harry, she mentions a "Mr. Tibbles" helping her locate him. Hmm... and this ties in with #2...

2. This is partly based on something I read on another site. The basic gist of what they wrote is that: A) Mrs. Figg's house smells like cabbages and cats. B) The Apocethary in Diagon Alley smells like cabbage. C) The Polyjuice Potion tastes like over-cooked cabbage. Since the potion must get several ingredients from an Apocethary, they concluded that Mrs. Figg may be using the Polyjuice Potion (can Squibs still use it? Or does it have to be a witch or wizard?). From the "Mr. Tibbles" thing, I got the idea that Mrs. Figg's house may be home to more than one person. Perhaps several other people are taking the potion to turn into cats? Also, there's the fact that Hermione accidentally turned herself into a cat with the potion, which may be more foreshadowing by Rowling.... while I have no idea WHY all these people would want to turn into cats, but I thought it was worth noticing.

3. In CoS, while Riddle is talking to Harry, he said something along the lines of "I'm very skilled with charming people", and remember Rowling said the fact that Lily's wand was good for charm work would be important... maybe it's a link to Voldemort somehow?

That's all I can really think of right now... I'm sure I'll have more soon... with my obsessive-compulsiveness and all;)

Oh, and I just remembered something: the Time-Turner in PoA! It was used to save Sirius' life before... couldn't they have used it to go back in time to keep Harry from breaking into Umbridge's fireplace and make him use the mirror instead? I'm sure there'll be a thousand reasons why this wouldn't work... but they might've considered it... :(

1. I think that Mr Tibbles is in fact the name of the cat. Maybe Tibbles is a kneazle! I think the idea is that Mrs Figg is kinda... odd... and so she substitutes real people for her cats (like that crazy woman in the Simpsons episode where Bart and Lisa get their own TV show: "can anyone who loves animals this much really be crazy?" :D)

2. Ah, but the polyjuice potion didn't work in turning Hermione into a cat completely! I think the polyjuice potion is only supposed to be used for turning people into other people. Although being a squib, maybe Mrs Figg doesn't know this and tried it anyway, to turn her cats into people (although why she'd do that I have no idea)

3. This has been sort of talked about before, but the connection between Voldy being good at charms and Lily's wand being good at charms was never brought up IIRC. Good find! :)

And about the Time-turner. I think it would be too dangerous to use it, and in OOTP Harry didn't talk to anyone or see anything that was out of the ordinary (which would hint at somebody using a TT). There's also probably a limit on the number of turns you can use - like you could probably only go back 24 hours or something...

Moxie

07-13-2003, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by KillerBunny
I just remembered something: the Time-Turner in PoA! It was used to save Sirius' life before... couldn't they have used it to go back in time to keep Harry from breaking into Umbridge's fireplace and make him use the mirror instead? I'm sure there'll be a thousand reasons why this wouldn't work... but they might've considered it... :(

Hermione's Time-Turner was borrowed, and given back when she no longer needed it to take extra classes: "That Time-Turner, it was driving me mad. I've handed it in. Without Muggle Studies and Divination, I'll be able to have a normal schedule again." (PoA, p. 430 (US hardcover))

Seriphus

07-13-2003, 10:51 AM

I think the polyjuice potion is only supposed to be used for turning people into other people. 'It was a c-cat hair!' she howled. 'M-Millicent Bulstrode m-must have a cat! And the P-Potion isn't supposed to be used for animal transformations!' (CoS, chpt 12, The Polyjuice Potion) Oh, and I just remembered something: the Time-Turner in PoA! It was used to save Sirius' life before... couldn't they have used it to go back in time to keep Harry from breaking into Umbridge's fireplace and make him use the mirror instead? Well there's this from one of her interviews:

Q. Will Harry time-travel again?
A. Not telling!

But I agree with Pilgrin Grey that there's probably a limit on how far back you can go. Also I think any way of resurrecting Sirius would cheapen his death and spoil JKR's aim of showing the affects of death on those left behind.
When Hagrid is telling Harry about Voldemort in SS, he says that Voldemort had killed many of the great wizarding families of the time... including the Bones, the Prewetts, and the Lovegoods. Now that's interesting. She seems very...at ease with death, for want of a better phrase, as if she's used to people dying. Mind you, she probably wasn't born when Voldy killed those Lovegoods or at least would have been too young to remember. (But then seeing her mother die is a pretty big thing to happen to her).

Lady Haleth

07-13-2003, 10:54 AM

Hmm, time turning. Will the time turning bell jar at the Ministry of Magic have any significance in books 6 and 7? Or was it just a cute detail?

lizz

07-13-2003, 01:03 PM

Good find on the Lovegoods. :clap: I completely missed that. I´d like to know more about them.

Interessting idea that harry might TimeTravel again, but I cant imagine it will be to save Sirius. The big difference is the amount of time that has passed and the complicated actions in the Ministry.
In PoA H&H had to avoid to be seen. thats ok for about three hours when only a few people are around, but to go back before the battle and talk to sirius over the mirror wouldn work. There has passed a great amount of time and I cant see how this could be changed. In PoA present and future where happening at the same time when Harry sees himself doing the patronus charms and saving them all. So how could it work this time? Not to forget what about Fudge actually seeing Voldemort. If harry &Co werent there that wouldnt happen. and going back into the midle of the battle to save sirius there seems almost impossible.

I´ve been wondering about the cats too. the seem to have a system of knowing people and being able to follow them and pass messages to their owners. Just think of Mrs.Norris. But Mr.Filch is a Squib too so maybe the cats are helping squibs in the magical world?

KillerBunny

07-13-2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by lizz
Good find on the Lovegoods. :clap: I completely missed that. I´d like to know more about them.

Interessting idea that harry might TimeTravel again, but I cant imagine it will be to save Sirius. The big difference is the amount of time that has passed and the complicated actions in the Ministry.
In PoA H&H had to avoid to be seen. thats ok for about three hours when only a few people are around, but to go back before the battle and talk to sirius over the mirror wouldn work. There has passed a great amount of time and I cant see how this could be changed. In PoA present and future where happening at the same time when Harry sees himself doing the patronus charms and saving them all. So how could it work this time? Not to forget what about Fudge actually seeing Voldemort. If harry &Co werent there that wouldnt happen. and going back into the midle of the battle to save sirius there seems almost impossible.

I´ve been wondering about the cats too. the seem to have a system of knowing people and being able to follow them and pass messages to their owners. Just think of Mrs.Norris. But Mr.Filch is a Squib too so maybe the cats are helping squibs in the magical world?

I have Philosopher's Stone, and mine lists the McKinnons, the Bones and the Prewetts. Could mine possibly be a very early version and this was a mistake? Listing the Lovegoods would certainly make more sense.

I suppose the time travel thing was just wishful thinking... but I still maintain that it will be used again later. And you're right, there probably is a time limit on it (ha, a time limit on time travel :D ), because otherwise someone could've gone back in time and saved Harry's parents, right? It would completely cheapen the idea of people dying, because really, if you used the time turner for everything, nobody would have to die! And that would just kind of ruin the whole effect...

Wow, I didn't even think of Mrs. Norris and Filch! I think that seems kind of similar... after all, Mrs. Norris and Mr. Tibbles... and Mr. Filch and Mrs. Figg... I think the cats helping Squibs is a good idea...

Oh, and I thought of something I read a looonngg time ago on harrypotterfans.net (been gone for a while, unfortunately): J.K. Rowling was quoted in an interview saying (something along the lines of this, I don't know it exactly) "Non-magical people can sometimes manage to do magic much later in life... however, this is all I'm saying at the moment" At the time I thought of Filch, but really it could also apply to Mrs. Figg, and *gasp* Aunt Petunia :eek:

Kristin

07-13-2003, 09:48 PM

My book also lists the McKinnons, Bones (should be Boneses, says the Grammar Avenger) and Prewetts. I haven't noticed any other mention of the surname Lovegood. :confused:

As for the Time-Turner: We know that Harry doesn't go back in time to save Sirius because it didn't happen the first time around. What I mean is, watch the clues.

In PoA, the first time around, Harry sees what he thinks is his dad. The second time through events we find out that it was actually Harry. So Harry was there in all versions of the time.

In PoA, the first time around, we hear a swinging ax and a thud, followed by Hagrid howling. We assume it means MacNair has killed Buckbeak and Hagrid is upset. But the second time we find out that the ax noise is MacNair hitting the fence or stump in anger and Hagrid crying with happiness. But Buckbeak wasn't killed the first time and then saved when Harry and Hermione went back in time. He just wasn't killed at all.

So the time turner couldn't have even been used immediately after Sirius' death to save him. The fact that he died means that no one could go back in time to save him. Also, we didn't see any clues that would indicate Harry going back in time.

JKR has made her own time travel rules. Implying that time reflects not only what has happened but what will happen. (Which is why Harry is in two places at once. And why it isn't just one Harry the first time and then two Harrys when he goes back in time.)

BTW -- For those of you who like stories about time travel theory, I *highly* recommend To Say Nothing of the Dog by Connie Willis.

Elfëa

07-13-2003, 10:04 PM

I think Lovegoods were mentioned in GoF - when Diggorys and Weasleys et co. met at the hill top. I can't remember whether they were the ones who didn't get the tickets, or the ones who had gone to the Quidditch World Cup a week earlier... :o

Question: Do you think Dumbledore's judgement is all trusthworthy? We have seen he's made mistakes, yet Mr. Weasley puts all his trust on Dd=> (paraphrasing) "if you can't trust Dumbledore, there's no one you can trust".
To me, that bit when I read it bode ill... (and I haven't got there for the second time yet...)

PhoenixSong1031

07-13-2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Elfëa
I think Lovegoods were mentioned in GoF - when Diggorys and Weasleys et co. met at the hill top. I can't remember whether they were the ones who didn't get the tickets, or the ones who had gone to the Quidditch World Cup a week earlier... :o
"Must be nearly time," said Mr.Weasley quickly, pulling out his watch again. "Do you know whether we're waiting for any more, Amos?"
"No, the Lovegoods have been there for a week already and the Fawcetts couldn't get tickets," said Mr.Diggory. (GoF, chapter 6, The Portkey)

:wave: Hello everyone!! :wave:
Even though I haven't posted here in the longest time (since I first finished OotP and posted a reaction), I've been been in awe reading all of the wonderful theories and sightings by everyone :notworthy - and thought it would be fun if I could help out with this sighting. (Even though Elfëa pretty much had it already!) ;)

~Phoenix

Pippin

07-14-2003, 10:14 AM

Posted by Seriphus
as long as Voldy understands how love affects other people and how he can therefore manipulate them it is a very useful tool for him. In fact he used it as a weapon in book IV…. Harry went to the MOM to rescue Sirius because he loves him. Voldy knew he would do this. He used Harry's love for Sirius to try to get the prophecy. As Dumbledore says:

'Like the fact that you were coming to regard Sirius as a mixture of father and brother. ...Kreacher's information made him realise that the one person for whom you would go to any lengths to rescue was Sirius Black.' (OoTP, chpt 37, The Lost Prophecy)

He could just as well use Harry's love for any one else to lure him into a situation where Harry is vunerable enough for him to be killed (or not if Harry has learnt enough from his experience at the Ministry to avoid future traps). Which might be the very thing that justifies Sirius´s death, Serphy – Harry has learned how he became vulnerable that way and will avoid this mistake in the future. Which doesn´t mean at all that he´ll stop loving people, or talk himself out of it – but he´ll be careful not to let Voldemort know, and not show it openly.

There are two sides to the “love” theme, really: It makes you (and your loved ones) extremely vulnerable and extremely strong at the same time. :)

What´s that about the Weasleys being named after kings? King Ronald? :confused: (It works with all the others, I admit!)

Posted by lizz
I´ve been wondering about the cats too. the seem to have a system of knowing people and being able to follow them and pass messages to their owners. Just think of Mrs.Norris. But Mr.Filch is a Squib too so maybe the cats are helping squibs in the magical world? Possibly… like serving as a link to the magical world or something? No idea… but you´re right lizz, it can´t be a coincidence!

Interesting observations about the Lovegoods… they do indeed appear to be more than harmless nutters.

And I must say I see no reason to believe that Luna´s account of her mother´s death (a magical household accident) is true. She might be covering up something rather more serious and terrible (like Neville used to cover up his parents´ story).

At least the Lovegoods did play a role in the first war against Voldemort, which confirms which side they´re on, and why Luna wanted to joint the DA. (Much like Susan Bones and Neville.)

Interestingly, my edition of HP PS has “the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts”, too. That´s a 45 – 50 UK paperback edition, bought in 2000.

But by that time GoF was already out, so at least the name had been introduced (Luna´s dad probably got press tickets to the world cup :D) but not in connection with Voldemort of course. Must be a later amendment.

Anyone else feel that´s cheating? :p

Lady Haleth

07-14-2003, 10:20 AM

JKR's rules about time travel... maybe that is just it... there is some rule in the wizard world that does not allow people to prevent the death of someone who has already died. I'm just finishing up PoA again, and I cannot imagine why Dumbledore would have allowed Hermione to use the time turner to attend extra classes. How could questions about her dual presence not come up? What if she had run into herself between classes? It would have made her crazy, right? Maybe the same thing happens to the sanity of someone whose death has been changed. Plus, with one turn representing an hour, it probably does have a limited time frame. It's surprising that Harry didn't ask Dumbledore if he could use the time turner to save Sirius, unless he already knew that it was impossible.

Seriphus

07-14-2003, 01:19 PM

I´ve been wondering about the cats too. the seem to have a system of knowing people and being able to follow them and pass messages to their owners. Just think of Mrs.Norris. But Mr.Filch is a Squib too so maybe the cats are helping squibs in the magical world? There's definitely something coming up to do with cats. From an interview:

[Q] Is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than first meets the eye? (i.e. Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall as a cat, etc.)
[A] Ooooo, another good question. Let's see what I can tell you without giving anything away....erm....no, can't do it, sorry.

And I must say I see no reason to believe that Luna´s account of her mother´s death (a magical household accident) is true. She might be covering up something rather more serious and terrible (like Neville used to cover up his parents´ story). I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say I don't believe it, but I'm positive there's something a lot more significant about it. Something about why her mother died that Luna's way of talking about things like death didn't allow to surface.What´s that about the Weasleys being named after kings? King Ronald? (It works with all the others, I admit!) There's no king Ronald as far as I know, but Ronald is derived from Reginald, the meaning of which is 'Mighty and powerful ruler'. So a ruler's name, even though the connexion's not as strong as the rest of the Weasleys' names.Which might be the very thing that justifies Sirius´s death, Serphy – Harry has learned how he became vulnerable that way and will avoid this mistake in the future. Which doesn´t mean at all that he´ll stop loving people, or talk himself out of it – but he´ll be careful not to let Voldemort know, and not show it openly. Yeah, that's very true. It could justify his death, though it's a very sad way for Harry to learn this lesson.There are two sides to the “love” theme, really: It makes you (and your loved ones) extremely vulnerable and extremely strong at the same time. Exactly. :)

Elfëa

07-14-2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Lady Haleth
I cannot imagine why Dumbledore would have allowed Hermione to use the time turner to attend extra classes. How could questions about her dual presence not come up? What if she had run into herself between classes? It would have made her crazy, right?

I doubt it would have made Hermione crazy, as she was aware when she would be using the turner. She knew she might see a glimpse of her "other self". :) I think the going crazy applies only when you don't know that you might use a time turner - Harry didn't have a clue before using it= he never considered the possiblity of running into himself....
And to my understanding, other teachers had a clue that she was using a time turner.

Pippin

07-15-2003, 08:10 AM

About the death of Luna´s mother,

Posted by Seriphus
I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say I don't believe it, but I'm positive there's something a lot more significant about it. Something about why her mother died that Luna's way of talking about things like death didn't allow to surface. Yes, she´s so extremely off-hand about it. It sounds so “studied” to me, the way she talks about it.

Posted by Elfëa
I doubt it would have made Hermione crazy, as she was aware when she would be using the turner. She knew she might see a glimpse of her "other self". I think the going crazy applies only when you don't know that you might use a time turner - Harry didn't have a clue before using it= he never considered the possiblity of running into himself.... I agree with that. When Harry used it at the end of PoA, he could have run into a Harry that didn’t know there was such a thing as a time turner. If that makes sense. The “time turned” Harry can watch the other Harry from behind the trees without going mad.
And Hermione, who got hers right at the beginning of the year before her classes started, always knew that she was using it *while* she was using it. So she was safe to happen upon herself, no matter whether it was "real time" or "time turned" Hermione, because she always knew.
I hope this makes sense. :confused:

Lady Haleth

07-15-2003, 10:07 AM

Yes, that makes more sense now. Plus I finished PoA last night (can't believe all the things I had forgotten!) and now I see the difference between being aware that you are using the time turner and not. Harry was lucky that he mistook his own appearance across the lake for that of his father, even as confusing as that was for him.

Colli

07-15-2003, 10:08 AM

Hehe, how odd would it have been for some of the teachers (even though they knew about it) to see two Hermione's running aorund the castle at the same time? :D

qleap

07-15-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by KillerBunny
Iafter all, Mrs. Norris and Mr. Tibbles... and Mr. Filch and Mrs. Figg... I think the cats helping Squibs is a good idea...
:eek: My cat's name is Mr. Sydney!! Does that make me a Squib? ;)

As for the Time-Turner: I must admit I never liked the whole idea, since PoA (and I loved PoA).
It's just that I don't like messing up with time travels much in books... Ok I know that it's quite funny from someone whose nick is qleap :p :D but maybe if it's a story based on time travel I could understand...
In most of other cases, it's too often a deus ex machina IMHO.

Deagol's Bane

07-15-2003, 02:46 PM

I finished!
I enjoyed it almost thoroughly. But I too was a bit disappointed. I didn't want it to end. Not as much b/c it was so fantastic as b/c I thought that something was missing, in some way. I don't know.

I wish I hadn't known that someone would die. As it was, I figured it would have to be an adult - Snape, McGon, DDore, Mr/Mrs Weasly, Sirius, or Hagrid - a 2nd or 3rd string character, so to speak.

Black was, to me, a third string character, and I didn't particularly care about him. I think I would only have been really affected at all if Snape (2nd string char) or Hermione (1st String) died (my fave chars at the moment).
The way SBlack went out was sort of lacking. I suspect we'll learn more (or else it was a kind of lame death, IMO).

Fred/George great, as has been said. :)

Umbridge was awful. She became a bit cartoonish and irrelevant towards the end, possibly, but still a really great person to hate. :)

The prophecy is/was a weapon? I thought that was a little weak. But otherwise, I like the idea and how Neville is tied in (no free will/fate concerns here :) ).

Cho/Harry, etc. - As long as it's played largely for laughs, I don't mind. I generally dislike teen books/programs where this stuff is taken so seriously. Pretty well done here. It's more interesting now, I think. Makes room for new characters, I hope.

The Pensieve - I thought Sirius would tell HP that it was only Snapes memory of the event, not necessarily the event as it historically happened. If it was Snape's memory, how come it has stuff that Snape couldn't have actually heard/seen when it actually happened?

Anyway, I like how Snape was right about Harry's dad (and friends to a lesser extent). Frankly, I think Snape's right about HP more often than not too (same as Hermione). (I like Snape and Herm, if you didn't know. :) )

Oh well, there's so much more but...

Overall, some relatively slower/slightly more tedious parts, a few really excellent parts, not as much character development of my favorite characters (I'm not even very interested in Harry! :o ), yet all of it was really fun and enjoyable.

GoFire still my fave. Hard to say where I'd put OotPhoenix; I haven't read the others in a while. I'd put it in 3rd place behind GoF and PoA.

I don't know how they're going to turn this one into a good movie. Seems impossible.

P.S. I tried to read all your posts, but... there're so many! I'm sure everything I write has been said before. :)

Rosie Gamgee

07-15-2003, 03:39 PM

Just echoing what DB said a little about not even being interested in Harry...

Harry drove me nuts in this book! I got so frustrated with him for never listening to anyone, for always assuming he knew what was best or most urgent. I mean, I love the kid, but dangit, when he had the audacity to enter into Snape's personal, private thoughts, I just got mad at him. And I was really glad at what he saw because it demystified James and Sirius. And even after that, Harry didn't have any further sympathy for Snape or what he'd gone through as a kid.

Arrrrgh! I mean, don't get me wrong. I love Harry. But even Dumbledore's attempt to take the blame for what happened to Sirius out of Harry's hands didn't fly with me. Harry didn't listen! He couldn't even trust Dumbledore--who had saved him time and time again. Of course, ultimately the blame for Sirius rests in Voldemort and Bellatrix's hands. But dangit. Harry believes an evil house elf over the people who love him. Made me nutters.

But the book was great. I enjoyed every moment that Lupin appeared and was sooooo relieved when he didn't get killed. I thought for sure he'd be the one. Whew!

Colli

07-15-2003, 04:00 PM

:D Hey RosieG and welcome back Deagol'sBane! :hug:

This thread tends to cover a broad spectrum of topics, but we were having a nice discussion on Harry's attitude in the "Questions to teenagers" thread if you wanted to check that out. :D

And even after that, Harry didn't have any further sympathy for Snape or what he'd gone through as a kid.
:) I don't entire agree with that. Snape didn't really give Harry a chance to say anything, did he? And even if Harry had that chance, he might have been too shocked to say anything. But look at that chapter:

A few points to back myself up:
After Snape catches Harry in the Pensieve. Ootp, Snape's Worst Memory
"So... been enjoying yourself, Potter?"

"N-no... said Harry."
"Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" said Snape.

"I -- didn't --" (presumably, "I didn't think so," or "I didn't say that")
"You will not repeat what you saw to anybody!" Snape bellowed.

"No," said Harry, "No, of course I w --".
And then Snape chucked him out of his office.

A few sentences later, the narrator describes Harry's thoughts:
What was making Harry feel so horrified and unhappy was not being shouted at or having jars thrown at him -- it was that he knew how it felt to be humiliated in the middle of a circle of onlookers, knew exactly how Snape had felt as his father had taunted him, and that judging from what he had just seen, his father had been every bit as arrogant as Snape had always told him.
So he (at least inwardly) identifies with Snape, and admits that he was right. I think that can count as "further sympathy," even if he doesn't outwardly show it throughout the rest of the book.

:D We've had some discussion on that in the "Snape!" thread as well.

Welcome again! :hug: