Questions to teenagers - SPOILERS

[susanna]

I have read HP5 and enjoyed it immensely. But two questions crossed my mind, and as my teenage years have been over for quite some time I need some help from people who are still young:

1. Harry gets older, Ron gets bigger and is now much taller than his mother... how do you like this? Is HP5 still understandable to the young readers for whom HP1 was written?

2. There are a lot of scenes when Harry has noone to talk to or thinks he has noone to talk to. Sometimes I want to shout at him: Just go downstairs and try to talk to people instead of thinking they avoid you!
And then of course there are scenes when the grown-ups really refuse to tell him important things.

So at times Harry seems terribly lonely to me, sometimes really lonely, sometimes because of his stupidity.

My question is: Is this realistic? Is this what 15-year-olds feel?

[Colli]

:) Good questions.

I'm 18, so I can remember those years pretty well. ;)

1. I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer this... I've been taller than my mom for years. :D

2. Yeah, that's how we feel. I could completely identify with Harry's actions, and although the people WERE right downstairs, although he could've talked to them, he didn't. Because he felt like nobody understood, he felt betrayed, he's angry. And I would be too. So although common sense is screaming "DUH!", we do have hormones (not necessarily sex-related), and we do lash out at those we love, and we do have a certain desire to do things ourselves. And if we throw ourselves a pity party and wallow in misery in the process, so be it. ;)

I actually spent quite a few years lonely... although I have a great family and had awesome friends, then AND now. It's just every teenager (I'm generalizing, I know :p).. MOST every teenager feels like nobody understands them.

I think Rowling has hit the nail on the head.

[Fleurdelacour]

I'm sixteen, (that still sounds wrong...) and I've just finished my Fifth year in Secondary School (and last...!)

1. Can't really answer, my mum is 5ft1, and I'm 5ft8 :p When children read HP1, (unless they read it this year) and if they're reading HP5 now, they're bound to be at least six years older. I read harry potter when I was 13, and every time I read it, the deaths, the evil, means more to me then it did at 13. I mean, lots of things in the world has also changed since I was 13. JKR doesn't talk down to children, she thinks kids aren't given enough credit, so she won't dumb down the books so smaller kids can understand.

2. All the time. Like Harry, I had a small group of wonderful friends, Sinead, Nikki and Maria. All of them I could trust with my life, and they'd listen to me, and help me through my problems. But sometimes, if you're angry at the world for many reasons, whether it was the war, or trivial things like, the lack of chocolate for instance. Or if your childhood was so horrible because of your peers, you're paranoid, and suddenly feel "Hang on. If I tell them I'm really paranoid, they wont be my friends." So you cant tell them.

So yes, JKR has portrayed Harry very reilistically, perfectly infact, if I had gone through what Harry had been through, I would have cracked! I'm so glad he did finally crack, even if he was meaning awful to Hermione and Ron who weren't really doing anything to him...

[PhoenixSong1031]

Even though I am new to this board (having just found it actually!), I thought I'd jump in here - considering that I'm only 17 and remember my younger years well. ;)

1. Well, I can't answer this either because I am also taller than my mother (and have been for quite a number of years!). According to the writing of HP ... I think that JKR has had her books grow up with her readers. I know that, similar to Fleur, I started reading these books when they first came out, so I have grown up with them. I think that JKR is shaping her writing in such a way that the kids will feel imporant because their reading a book of such maturity. I honestly think that she did that to have the books grow with the readers, and, like Fleur said, that kids don't get enough credit for how smart and astute they actually are.

2. I honestly agree that JKR has hit the nail squarely on the head for a few reasons. Teenagers tend to be very emotional, and even those supporting them can get on their nerves even though they hadn't done anything to begin with. I believe that if in fact Harry hadn't cracked, then there would be doubts as to why... I think that even without half of that pressure that Harry is under that any normal teen can tell you they'd have done the same thing.
If they adults had been keeping information from me like that - I would have blown up at Dumbledore too. If Harry was ready a few years ago like Dumbledore said he was, then why didn't he tell him then?? (I know that Dumbledore did have his best interest at heart - as I'm sure all parents say to their children at one point or another - but the fact of the matter is that kids&teens don't like that answer because we want to be treated with respect enough for you to tell us the truth.)

~Phoenix

[Colli]

Hey Phoenix, welcome! :hug: Awesome points. :D

[lizz]

I have left my teenage years behind me for quite some time ;) but still I do think she hit the nails there. Great character description and great puberty stuff. I think it ´s toally believable. And I´m really glad she changed her writing stile, I find the books since Azkaban much better.

[susanna]

Thanks to all for answering... Maybe I should go now and read the diary I kept when I was forteen.... ( I have a whole shoebox of them, I always thought they were written during my teenage years, but now I have discovered that I wrote most of them in the year when I was forteen.

I think - well, rationally I think - that it is important to have someome to talk to. Some grown-up person. There are scenes in HP4 and HP3 and some even in HP5 where Harry can talk, and most of the time things become better. But on the other hand side - if you feel your parents are not the right persons, than it might be wise to go and find someone else.

I wonder whether it is necessary that at the age of fifteen you feel lonely and feel that you cannot talk to anyone ("well, the hormones"). I wonder whether it is possible to think of a society where this does not happen or far less than it does in our society.

There are two other moments when I think: Why does Harry not say anything. One is with Neville at St.Mungo. He things he does well by not talking. But I am not sure. Maybe Neville does not want to talk about his parents. But maybe Neville would like to talk and hopes for a sign of encouragement, a sign, that he may talk and that his parents won't be despised.

The other moment is with Snape. As it is, Snape is deeply hurt by Harry knowing about this worst moment. And it is a story that makes Snape vulnerable. And to be honest, in Snape's position I would not want a fifteen-year-old to know this story, because fifteen-year-olds can be very cruel, they often think like James Potter and Sirius that it is quite okay to make fun of a kid that different from the others and their highest ambition is often to be like the others.

(Btw, I was already shocked by Sirius at the end of HP3, when he tought that the trick on Snape that might have killed Snape was only what Snape deserved.)

But Harry was not the typical fifteen-year-old in this respect. He knew what it meant to be bullied. And Snape knew that he knew...

What if they had talked - if Snape had been able to talk freely and to tell Harry freely that this wound is something that makes him vulnerable to Voldemort himself...

But Snape could not do it. His authority as a teacher was at stake. He and Harry would have needed some help, maybe from Dumbledore, maybe from Lupin.

Btw, Phoenix, I fully agree to you that Dumbledore's behaviour to Harry is not okay. There are informations about Harry's life that are vital to Harry, and Harry asks for them, and Dumbledore says: Well, later.... It's not right. Kids don't need to be told everything, but if they ask, you should answer.

[ChianaWeasley]

It really bugs me to find out how Sirius,Remus, and James acted when they were at Hogwarts. James reminds me alot of Malfoy actually, it was a kick in the face. I made me feel bad for Snape. Which was a weird feeling to have. He was right when he told Harry his father wasn't the all time hero he imagined. But he did grow out of that phase I guess. I'd like to her more about James and Lily when they were older, then I can judge how I feel about James.

[Athelas]

from Chiana:I'd like to her more about James and Lily when they were older, then I can judge how I feel about James.

I am SURE that JKR will give us a LOT more about this! I also felt awful while reading this, but felt this was the most engrossing part of the book. As a 40+ year-old, it made me remember some things I did in my teens and early 20s that I am ashamed of now, and it certainly made me think of Snape differently.

I think making so many of her characters shades of gray(grey);) really makes these books better as they go along.

Should we be starting a literary Villian Appreciation Thread?!

[PhoenixSong1031]

Originally posted by ChianaWeasley:
James reminds me alot of Malfoy actually, it was a kick in the face. I made me feel bad for Snape. Which was a weird feeling to have. He was right when he told Harry his father wasn't the all time hero he imagined.
I whole-heartedly agree with you on that one Chiana. I believe that JKR put in that scene assuming that she would get that reaction from the readers.
I had always imagined James like Harry in the James/Snape Harry/Draco relationship ... but know we've found out that Snape is almost more like Harry than like Draco. :eek: Very strange indeed.
Originally posted by ChianaWeasley:
I'd like to her more about James and Lily when they were older, then I can judge how I feel about James.
Hopefully James does grow up. I think that the reaction from Lily was not from someone who loves you .. so I think that eventually James did grow out of that "I want to impress myself in front of the girl I like so I'm going to make myself look as stupid as possible scenario".
I wanted more information about James & Lily too Athelas ... but I guess we'll have to wait on more information on them in HP6. :rolleyes:

~Phoenix

[ChianaWeasley]

Exactly Phoenix.

To find that Harry was more like Snape, is a good way to put it.

But only in that way.

They both are still very different,in more ways then one

[PhoenixSong1031]

Thanks Chiana. ;)

Yes, I meant they were alike in only that way.
They are quite different ...

Speaking of Snape, I wonder why Dumbledore imagined that Snape could teach Harry occulmency (sp?) and learn to supress his loathing feelings for James... Apparently that didn't work out as planned. I understand why Dumbledore did that and all - but why give Snape (and not to mention Voldie in the process) access to those hurtful secrets of Harry's? Snape's lessons obviously tired him out and made him more vulnerable to Voldie... Was that a plot?? :eek: :confused:
Snape was apparently enraged when Harry saw his memories of James and Sirius teasing him... WHY didn't Harry say anything?? Even though I understand it would have made Snape more angry at him at first (if that's possible) - but I don't know whether it would've come out for good in the end because of the fact that Snape understood now that Harry is appalled (sp?) at James' actions .... Too many things in there to think about!

Any suggestions?? ;)

~Phoenix

[Colli]

:D Maybe Dumbledore WANTED Harry and Snape to learn more about each other. ;)

What makes me mad is Snape's rudeness keeps Harry from learning. It's not that Harry just sucks at Potions, because he thinks he did well on that OWL, but that Snape makes him nervous.

[PhoenixSong1031]

Wow... that had never occured to me before. Brava Colli! :D
Maybe Dumbledore had an alterior motive after all.... ;)

Even though we all love Snape (to a certain degree), his loathing does out Harry in an akward position in an attempt to learn things from Snape... But like you said - he must not be abismal in potions, but rather it's Snape who gets him nervous....

Off to think more about this new thought... (and to read the book some more - once is never enough!!) :D

~Phoenix

[Mirdan]

Snape reminds me a lot of Sirius in this respect -- he seems to have a hard time disassociating Harry from James :D from the moment Snape laid eyes on Harry, we all knew that Snape detested Harry. guess Harry's resemblance to James is bit of a mixed blessing ;)

[Monkfish]

~OLD FOGEY ALERT!~

When I was a young scallywag, the only entertainment was.....

WHOAH!

Nearly lapsed into senility then:rolleyes: :D

[susanna]

Originally posted by PhoenixSong1031
Thanks Chiana. ;)

Yes, I meant they were alike in only that way.
They are quite different ...

Speaking of Snape, I wonder why Dumbledore imagined that Snape could teach Harry occulmency (sp?) and learn to supress his loathing feelings for James... Apparently that didn't work out as planned. I understand why Dumbledore did that and all - but why give Snape (and not to mention Voldie in the process) access to those hurtful secrets of Harry's? Snape's lessons obviously tired him out and made him more vulnerable to Voldie... Was that a plot?? :eek: :confused:
Snape was apparently enraged when Harry saw his memories of James and Sirius teasing him... WHY didn't Harry say anything?? Even though I understand it would have made Snape more angry at him at first (if that's possible) - but I don't know whether it would've come out for good in the end because of the fact that Snape understood now that Harry is appalled (sp?) at James' actions .... Too many things in there to think about!

Any suggestions?? ;)

~Phoenix
why did Harry not say anything? I think that in theory you are right, talking openly might have made Snape and Harry understand each other better. Snape may have overcome his hatred for Harry (that results in his confusing Harry and James), and Harry might have been a bit more gracious towards Snape.

But such to begin such a talk is not easy, and the talk itself is even more difficult. Harry is to young for such a thing, and Snape is still too near to the humiliated helpless fifteen-year-old boy he once was. It's beyond him as well.

I think that Lupin perhaps (or Sirius, if he had been a bit more grown-up) could have begun such a talk and helped both Harry and Snape go through it. Or Dumbledore could have done it.

The more I think of it - Dumbledore does not any more seem a great wise man to me. In fact he knows very little about when to talk and when to be silent.

[ChianaWeasley]

I think Dumbledore wanted to show them both more about one another, but also to show how alike they really are. They might look at each other differently, or maybe not. hmm...
nibbles a bit of peanut butter sandwich

[jesuisalleeaujardin]

Originally posted by susanna
1. Harry gets older, Ron gets bigger and is now much taller than his mother... how do you like this? Is HP5 still understandable to the young readers for whom HP1 was written?

2. There are a lot of scenes when Harry has no one to talk to or thinks he has no one to talk to. Sometimes I want to shout at him: Just go downstairs and try to talk to people instead of thinking they avoid you! And then of course there are scenes when the grown-ups really refuse to tell him important things.

So at times Harry seems terribly lonely to me, sometimes really lonely, sometimes because of his stupidity.

My question is: Is this realistic? Is this what 15-year-olds feel?

these are good questions, and the succeeding questions about harry not speaking up are awesome as well.

rowling mentioned why harry does not say a word about umbridge forcing him to write with a magical quill that carves "i must not tell lies" on the back of his hand. basically, she says harry shuts up because he doesn't want to loose face, doesn't want to be appear a baby. it's the same as being bullied _ you don't want anyone helping you out coz you don't want anyone thinking you are weak.

#1 _ ya, i think it is very understandable. i know a lot of kids like that. though it was very embarrasing _ i remember my dad as this huge guy, frightening and to be avoided at all costs if he is reading the paper or watching TV. and then i grew to up to his ears, and then suddenly, he wasn't so towering anymore. it was pretty unnerving, but when my younger sister surpassed me in height, my embarrasement was replaced by annoyance _ who does she think she is, growing taller than me?! :p

#2 _ harry is lonely because of all the things you mentioned. :p i think it's pretty common _ miscommunication. i think the weasley kids are excellent when it comes to talking their mind, especially ginny. :) i like her style: scream at the top of your lungs, hehehe... but with harry, he grew up being shunned, shut up and silenced. so i guess that his little talks with sirius were really comforting and important to him, because for the first time, he had an adult figure who valued him as a person, not as "The Boy Who Lived." so when he was taken from him, i could understand his loss.

sirius, on the other hand, knew about harry since he was born. with the way that the magical world looked at muggles, he knew that harry wasn't living in the world that is right for him, that he would have a lot of questions. being wrongly accused, he knows what it's like to be silenced, and he knows just the thing that would keep a person from going insane when silenced _ letting them talk. sirius, being older, processed this better (at least he seemed, to, as of book 5 :p ). and... he prolly also had tons of other reasons for caring for harry the way he did, being unmarried, imprisoned, having a godson who repelled a killing curse, a godson the spitting image of james, which hopefully he communicated to his only remaining best buddy from hogwarts, lupin. maybe in book 6 rowling will allow us a glimpse into that conversation? ;) i dunno. book 6 is definitely a long, long way off :(. ...

*sigh* it could have turned out all differently, i suppose... and i wish it did. :) (step 2 when greiving: acceptance. :LOL: . ... )

now harry has a new reason for feeling lonely _ he, as rowling said, "is a marked man." it's either him or voldemort who will die in the end. and if harry dies... it'll be the end of rowling's career because i'll make sure not to buy any more of her books after #7!!!!! hahaha :LOL: . ...

jardin

[t3h Qster]

I believe his actions this far have been appropriate for what kind of life he has lived.........and I think Harry is cursed with having a lonely life......thats just my 2 cents......since I agree with a lot of the things that were said above this post of mine

[Hellga]

I am officially out of my teens (turned 20 couple days ago), but I will try to answer.

1) I am only 1 cm taller than her (I am 176.5 cm, she is 175.5 cm), and have been that way since I was 12. So I don't remember. I think I was excited to be tall.

2) I read Harry Potter when I was 19. I couldn't identify with these teenage stupidities. As far as I remember, I always had my two close friends, one is my best friend for more than 17 years, since before we turned 3, and the other is the one we went through fire and water together, and I had good relationship with both of my parents even then. I have been blessed with parents who always trusted me to make my own decisions. It was even disappointing when they never argued and said, "Do as you see fit, just if you get in trouble, we won't bail you out." Maybe because of that I could never see HP books as somethign other that light reading when I don't feel like sleeping.

[ChianaWeasley]

I've thought about Ron and Harry going their own seperate ways, there are many parts that show it could have led to that. But it didn't

No matter what Ron and Harry will always be friends, even if girlfriends and Neville squirm their way into the picture
;)

I've just now really thought about it...

:)
makes you feel good really

[Ravenclaw]

(MILD OOTP SPOILERS: Warning you now)

Hey, I'm a young kid, I know what your talking about.

Some say I sound older than I am at times, "the voice of experiance" (which at times I think is total bs), but I don't think I do... I dunno, perhaps it's perspective, moving around the world at such. I don't often tell my age online because I like to know how old people actually believe me to be.

Being quite close to Harry's age in book five, and reading the book when I was eleven myself, I've grown up with Harry by my side. One of my best friends is a guy, and I know after his first kiss with a girl, he acted exactly how Harry did, which I found really cute. I think the book is still understandable for children younger than myself on one level, and yet entertaining and thought-provoking for adults/young adults/teens on another level. It's almost like the book tells two different stories...

Heh, there are often times when I feel no one understands me, and as Phineas Nigellus says "Never try to understand the students.... They would much rather be tragically misunderstood." The thing is, there are times when teenagers, such as myself, often DO feel like no one understands them, and when someone tries to sympathize, they don't often like it. ANd sometimes, especially, it seems, in Harry's case, there are some things you just CAN'T talk to people about, or don't feel like talking to people at all. Yes, at times it can seem silly and daft, but that's how our minds work. And sometimes, things are just to painful to be reminded of.

I've lost someone and I can sympathize with Harry in the final chapter of the book where he wants to be with people and yet wants to be alone. It's hard just throwing yourself back into conversations, and sometimes you're afraid to laugh with friends, because when you start laughing, you remember your deceased friend is not there to share it with you. And sometimes it seems an insult to their memory. But we all realize, as Harry I'm sure will eventually realize, that it's OK to laugh. It lessens the pain and your love one (in Harry's case, Sirius) would want you to move on, talk to people, be happy. For "life does not cease to be serious when someone laughs, just as it does not cease to be funny when someone dies."

[susanna]

Ravenclaw:

Thanks for your thoughtful answer! Maybe you are right: there are several levels in the book, and so smaller kids can read it and enjoy it, and they will enjoy it some years later as well. I think that this is a sign of every good book.

About not being understood: I have read a lot of popular psychological books during the recent few months, and I my ideas over certain things change rapidly. I think it likely that there are a lot of people around who try to understand, but don't manage, and I can guess that this is even more annoying than people who don't try.

If you dream - if you imagine the perfect listener - one to whom you tell a story and who understands immediately - really understands you and not only pretends - someone without any own interests, say wanting you to be a nice student who does not disturb lessons or a friendly child without any problems - would you like this?

I know that sometimes young people have a clearer eye concerning the problems of our society. Adults have made too many compromises... then adults often react "wait till you are as old as I am, then you will see." But what if the grown-ups are wrong?

Mourning: I think it just takes it's time. You should not try to hasten - then things go wrong. Only when someone seems stuck it is wise to do something against it. But Harry is far from that.

But mind you, I have never had someone torn out of my life. Only my grandfather died when I was nineteen and he eighty-six, so I had a lot of fond memories and did not "need" him any more but could let him go, and it seemed to me his time to go after a long and full life no violent premature death.

[Peregrinning Took]

Hee hee, I'm fifteen!!!

I was 14 when the book came out (curses! I was looking forward to reading about people that were my own age! I don't think it'll ever happen now....), and I was thinking: My my, Harry's a bit of a....er...(choice word here) now isn't he? :p

I'm planning on rereading the book over Spring Break, and as it will be a reading of a HP book where I'm the age of the people, I will let you know!!! *salutes you and walks off*

Heh, being a bit more serious now.......For some parts I could relate to how he was feeling, but sometimes I just wanted to do this: :trout: And then do it several more times..........Maybe it's just because he's a boy (:p), but a lot of the times he was acting really stupid and selfish! Stupid Harry! At first I found it funny, but then I started skimming over the pages and pages of TEXT THAT LOOKS LIKE THIS. DO YOU THINK THAT THE TYPIST'S CAPS LOCK WAS BROKEN, OR DID JKR REALLY WANT HARRY TO SHOUT SO OFTEN?????

[Little Miss]

i went through the harry-shouty-angsty-phase way before i was fifteen. my family werent too pleased but it got it out of the way quickly and left me to enjoy the rest of my teens as a person rather than a hormone-raging-angst-ridden-misunderstood little brat.

JKR has the typical teenager down with harry's personality in OotP, but it it strikes me that perhaps harry is not the typical tenager and judging on his personalities from the previous four books, the fifteen year old harry is completely out of synch with his character.

i dunno. shouldn't think too much about things, thinking is bad for you.

[Arcade GS]

Originally posted by susanna
I have read HP5 and enjoyed it immensely. But two questions crossed my mind, and as my teenage years have been over for quite some time I need some help from people who are still young:

1. Harry gets older, Ron gets bigger and is now much taller than his mother... how do you like this? Is HP5 still understandable to the young readers for whom HP1 was written?

JKR is doing her best to keep the content of the HP books satisfactory for those who started reading the books and are continuing to read them, and for those who are just now beginning to read them. I think she's doing a good job. Also, to answer your question, yes. There are things some younger kids won't pick up on, but as a whole the book is easy to read/understand for most ages.

Originally posted by susanna
2. There are a lot of scenes when Harry has noone to talk to or thinks he has noone to talk to. Sometimes I want to shout at him: Just go downstairs and try to talk to people instead of thinking they avoid you!

Try and put yourself in Harry's position. I think what you're doing is putting yourself in the shoes of those standing downstairs. I'm sure they'd like him to come downstairs and talk to them as well.

Originally posted by susanna
And then of course there are scenes when the grown-ups really refuse to tell him important things.

Yeah, but by the end of the book, I can understand why. Harry now knows his life will end in him being a killer or him being killed.

OFF TOPIC: I guess the true purpose of the Order is not to try and stop Voldomort directly, but rather too keep Harry alive and keep themselves informed on Voldomort's doings until the time is right for Harry to face him.

Originally posted by susanna
So at times Harry seems terribly lonely to me, sometimes really lonely, sometimes because of his stupidity.

Stupidity is a bit harsh. A lot of the time he kept away from people because he thought it best for those he cared about.

Originally posted by susanna
My question is: Is this realistic? Is this what 15-year-olds feel?

In terms of Harry wanting to be alone, I think it's realistic. The way it was described was something like: whenever he was around people, he wanted to be alone, but whenever he was alone, he wanted company. I've felt like that a lot. In fact, I was amazed at how well JKR put it.

[SiriuslyInLove]

Originally posted by Arcade GS
In terms of Harry wanting to be alone, I think it's realistic. The way it was described was something like: whenever he was around people, he wanted to be alone, but whenever he was alone, he wanted company. I've felt like that a lot. In fact, I was amazed at how well JKR put it.


I agree with you Flockman! i was amazed at how well she made it so realistic. I was 15 at the time and felt like Harry-minus the anger. BUt i was depressed...wonder if theres a magical cure for that?

[Arcade GS]

Yeah, I didn't have the anger either. I still like to be alone sometimes so I can think.

[SiriuslyInLove]

i do too and tehres nothing wrong with that! I like to be alone alot and sometimes people wonder whats wrong with me... ppl these days dont get it :rolleyes: ;)

[Arcade GS]

So true.

[SiriuslyInLove]

and it is a bit annoying, im glad i have a mom who understands! :)

[susanna]

I already wrote an answer yesterday, but somehow it got lost... I am a bit embarrassed - so much going on. I still feel responsible for this thread, but it is now a long time since I read HP 5 and I have forgotten a lot of things.

Now... I think it normal that you sometimes need to be alone - just to think a bit, or to be creative. Time to think, time to read, time to dream, time to write. Our culture is one of being happy and in groups all the time, but this is not healthy. My theory is that everyone needs both - time to be alone and time to be together with other people, but the mixture is different for different people.

Only when it gets as you describe it The way it was described was something like: whenever he was around people, he wanted to be alone, but whenever he was alone, he wanted company it gets complicated.

I think the problem with Harry was that there is noone whom he can really trust. Because to trust someone, you must be sure, that the other person is open and not hiding a lot of things from you that are important to you and that you should know in order to come to responsible, well-informed decisions.

I think that the grown-ups are acting in an irresponsible way when they don't tell Harry about the really important things when he is at Sirius' place during the summer holidays. Harry is no child. There should be an attitude of: We tell you what is important for you to know, we will include you in our plans to fight Voldemort and not treat you as something that has to be protected but cannot do much of itself, and, in exchange, we want you to be open with your own ideas about how to fight Voldemort and not do something really dangerous behind our backs.

I think it is this unopenness which leads to Harry's feeling of loneliness. Spending some hours or even days without seeing anyone is not loneliness - it is just taking some time off in order to think. But when there is unopenness, you can feel alone even when you are among people.

Maybe I am a bit optimistic about openness being a cure for everything. It is just that now I have decided that I don't want any unopenness in close relationships any more. Either I feel that it is safe to be open - then I will be open - or I feel that it is not safe - then there won't be a close relationship.

Anger and depression - I don't know you, so I won't get into details. But I hope that your depression is better now! Best wishes anyway! There are some theories that depression is what happens if the anger is turned towards yourself instead of the people who hurt you.

[Arcade GS]

I wanted to explain what I said when I posted it, but I figured it'd take while. I think the way you summed it up is the opposite of how I would've. Except for maybe one or two details.

[susanna]

:confused:

Now that's interesting and makes me curious.

[Arcade GS]

Alright, I'll go ahead and explain myself (it's 4:30AM right now, so excuse any mistakes I may make. Also, I may be saying things that don't make much sense as I'm extremely tired, so I'll most likely be editing this tomorrow):

Originally posted by susanna
Now... I think it normal that you sometimes need to be alone - just to think a bit, or to be creative. Time to think, time to read, time to dream, time to write. Our culture is one of being happy and in groups all the time, but this is not healthy. My theory is that everyone needs both - time to be alone and time to be together with other people, but the mixture is different for different people.

I'm pretty sure everyone is alone every once in a while, whether he/she'd like to be or not. Some people prefer to be alone sometimes to do the things you said: think, read, dream, etc. Others just don't like being around people. Then there are some who think they're better than everyone else. Yeah, I think it's normal to be alone every so often, but I don't consider it unhealthy if you really don't NEED to be alone.

Originally posted by susanna
I think the problem with Harry was that there is noone whom he can really trust. Because to trust someone, you must be sure, that the other person is open and not hiding a lot of things from you that are important to you and that you should know in order to come to responsible, well-informed decisions.

The Dursleys had Harry all to themselves for 11 straight years, telling him daily to keep his mouth shut, not to make a single noise, and making him believe no one cared what he had to say. This must've had a major impact on the way Harry decides to go about telling people things. 11 years of being told to keep quiet can make a big difference on what he'll be willing to share with people, also taking into account that he may not think anyone will care.

Originally posted by susanna
I think that the grown-ups are acting in an irresponsible way when they don't tell Harry about the really important things when he is at Sirius' place during the summer holidays. Harry is no child. There should be an attitude of: We tell you what is important for you to know, we will include you in our plans to fight Voldemort and not treat you as something that has to be protected but cannot do much of itself, and, in exchange, we want you to be open with your own ideas about how to fight Voldemort and not do something really dangerous behind our backs.

Harry isn't a child, but he is extremely predictable, as was shown in Book 5. The attitude the Order took was fine. The only reason things went wrong was because of a Ministry member ordering a dementor attack on Harry. Dumbledore was confident that no matter how little info Harry was given, he would not resort to extremely drastic measures. As was also shown, Harry isn't exactly capable or (sometimes) mature enough to handle the information the Order gives him. In the end he wished he wasn't himself.

Originally posted by susanna
I think it is this unopenness which leads to Harry's feeling of loneliness. Spending some hours or even days without seeing anyone is not loneliness - it is just taking some time off in order to think. But when there is unopenness, you can feel alone even when you are among people.

There's no one in the wizard world like Harry. No one except for Lord Voldemort. Throughout Book 5, most people feared Harry and thought he was a madman. He's always being singled out, whether it was because he'd done something great, or because someone had done something terrible to him. All he wants is to be like everyone else and have a normal life. He wants this, but he knows he can't have it. At least not until he takes care of Voldemort.

Originally posted by susanna
Maybe I am a bit optimistic about openness being a cure for everything. It is just that now I have decided that I don't want any unopenness in close relationships any more. Either I feel that it is safe to be open - then I will be open - or I feel that it is not safe - then there won't be a close relationship.

Openness requires forcefulness, in my opinion. You can't just be open with information like the Order has and not be strict on what people can do with it. The Order'd have to be constantly worrying about who has the information and how people are going to use it. Of course, this is an issue with members of the Order as well, but it's much worse when you hand this info. to a young man who has two friends to which he tells everything. Knowledge is dangerous, in this situation.

[owl]

I agree with susanna on this one

[Luthien4211]

Yeah, sorry Arcade, but I have to agree with susanna too.

Originally posted by Arcade GS
Harry isn't a child, but he is extremely predictable, as was shown in Book 5. The attitude the Order took was fine. The only reason things went wrong was because of a Ministry member ordering a dementor attack on Harry. Dumbledore was confident that no matter how little info Harry was given, he would not resort to extremely drastic measures. As was also shown, Harry isn't exactly capable or (sometimes) mature enough to handle the information the Order gives him. In the end he wished he wasn't himself.

I think it's always better to be as open as possible. Maybe I'm slightly biased because I'm around Harry's age myself, but I think teenagers and young people in general can handle quite a bit more than we're given credit for. And Harry in particular would be able to handle this I would think when you consider everything he's had to go through. He's had to endure much more than almost anyone else in the Order, and he is, in the end, going to have to play the vital role in defeating Voldemort. Therefore, I think he needs to be involved in their plans and know what's going on.

Originally posted by Arcade GS
Openness requires forcefulness, in my opinion. You can't just be open with information like the Order has and not be strict on what people can do with it. The Order'd have to be constantly worrying about who has the information and how people are going to use it. Of course, this is an issue with members of the Order as well, but it's much worse when you hand this info. to a young man who has two friends to which he tells everything. Knowledge is dangerous, in this situation.

It's true, you can't just go announcing the Order's plans from the street corner, but considering it's Harry Potter who's going to have such a vital role in the final battle and who is already dedicated to defeating Voldemort. I would think he would be keen to help and he could be trusted not to go spilling their secrets to someone untrustworthy. The only people he would tell would be Ron and Hermione who have proven throughout all the books that they can be trusted and can keep important secrets.

Just my thoughts...

~Luthien

[Flockman G5]

Did I post the part about how Harry was brought up by people who forced him to keep his mouth shut all day every day for 11 years? Did anyone read it?

That 'Arcade GS' bloke is me, btw.

[evereven]

I'm 18, so I think I can answer these fairly...

1. Well, I'm a little bit taller than my mom, so i dont really think this bothers me, I never really thought about it.

2. I feel the way Harry feels sometimes. I think every teen feels that way at some point or another, no matter how many friends they have or how close they are to those friends. No mattter how much R&H love Harry, they can never truly understand how he feels even when he goes to them for help. In short: He's acting pretty much how a normal teenage boy or girl would be.

JKR has Harry's (and really anyother of the kids') moods and actions perfectly. :notworthy

<333

[Luthien4211]

I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you Flockman...:o I was just pointing out some things I disagree with...

But I do think you're right about the Dursley's...them being so horrible to him and forcing him to stay silent and basically acting like he's worthless I'm sure had a major impact on his thinking.

I'm really sorry if you're offended...*cowers in a corner*

~Luthien

[Flockman G5]

Oh no, I didn't mean anything at all like that. Don't feel bad or anything, it's all good.

Evereven took the words right out of my mouth (in reference to her last sentence).