Rest In Peace... MAJOR SPOILERS!!!

[Fleurdelacour]

It needs a thread of its own...

IF YOU HAVE NOT READ OOTP CLICK BACK RIGHT NOW!!!! Like Elwen, I find highlighting tedious, and it looks kinda messy... But anyhoo!

It's just sank in, as I thought about how happy I was Remus Lupin was back. I then thought how sad Remus must have been when Sirius died (not that he really showed it… Maybe he was in shock, I know I was…) Would Remus be depressed? James gone all those years ago, Wormtail a betraying arse, and now Sirius gone. All his faithful friends from Hogwarts, gone… He must felt worse then he did on the 31st October 1980...

Sirius is dead. I'm starting to cry again, my hormones are raging, my lack of sleep symptoms now defiantly showing. Sirius, was dead. We’ll never see his handsome unkempt head in a fireplace ever again. We’ll never hear him give out advice, or hear him grumble as he was thinking.

No one saw the death coming, read the Harry Potter Odds thread for proof on that. I had resigned to the fact Neville was going to die, just as I was starting to really like him… Then Sirius gets himself killed…

We’re all very attached to the characters, most of us, for years have grown up with them, their ways, and isms, all run through us. Admit, who now uses the words ‘bloody’ and ’snuff it’? I never used them until I ’met’ my Ron. How many of us go ’Honestly!’ or ’Hmph!’ in a Hermione kind of way now? Probably most of us.

Even in celebrity magazines, they’re the stars, we’re the ‘Muggles’ (unless anyone here is really famous ;) )

I’m sure the characters have altered our lives in some way, one way or another. But is this normal? Is it healthy? Or maybe it’s normal in the wake of Harry Potter and it’s sheer brilliance.

Don’t ask me why I’m saying all this… I really haven’t been myself since I left school… But I’ve never been so upset at the death of a fictional character…

But is it these little things each character has that makes us so emotionally attached to the characters, and that their fictional death, would have an effect on our lives. I’ve been horribly moody all evening (though that could be lack of food and sleep…) probably because of Sirius’s death…

I’m still a bit weepy and sniffy now… Are we all like this? Have we all gone ever so slightly barmy? Or is this the effect this books really do have on people? How has this death affected everyone?

*sigh*

I really should stop looking for answers for everything… I’m blabbing too… It’s early morning...

[Athelas]

I LOVED the character of Sirius and had no idea he would be the one to die before I read the book, but halfway through, I felt JKR was setting it up pretty clearly.

My main point, however, in my own hormone-driven, sleep-deprived haze, is that it was NOT Harry's or Dumbledore's fault--that responsibility goes completely to Fudge. If he hadn't been so horrid in POA, how much suffering and death would have been avoided?!
(Now I'm talking about them like they're real people--I need to go to bed!)

[Colli]

FleurD, I was distraught. I started crying and didn't stop until long after I finished reading the book. I thought Lupin would go before Sirius.. Harry needs Sirius.

But I saw it coming, once I realized that Mr Weasley, Mrs Weasley, Hagrid, Katie Bell, and McGonagall were safe. ;) (And all the other people I thought were going to die. :D)

The way Jo was writing his character, the way he was getting even more reckless being holed up in that miserable house. It was coming.

I wish Jo would've shown Snape's reaction to Sirius' death. They loathed each other, yes, and Snape wished that Sirius would be kissed by the Dementors. And Snape hates Harry, but somewhere deep inside him, he has a heart. And I hope that snide comments about Sirius won't surface in book 6... that doesn't really seem like Snape. I mean, he went to see if Sirius was in Voldemort's posession or not.

But I would've really liked to see Snape saying something nice to Harry, I dunno. If only Draco and his goons hadn't been there. :p

I feel ok now. I really really REALLY wish Sirius hadn't died, but I don't think it's going to affect me permanently. I even laid down and took a nice (and much-needed) nap this afternoon after I finished the book, and after Mom got done making fun of me and my tear-stained face. :D

That was a good point about Lupin... all of his school buddies are gone. He's always seemed to have a good head on his shoulders, I hope he doesn't go nutters. :)

Man FleurD, you think the books have affected YOUR speech! :D I can't stop saying "bugger" and "git" now... although I refrain from using "bloody" too much because it really does get annoying. ;) But yeah, the British slang is getting to me, I'm picking up some of the kids' mannerisms. Now as long as I don't start going "hem hem"... ;)

I guess one thing that really upsets me is that the knife Sirius gave Harry melted in that door.... so now all Harry has left of his is that mirror, which is liable to drive him batty if he leaves it around for too long. :)

Sigh. :(

I'd much rather Hagrid to have died, I didn't like him at all in this book.

[Mirdan]

oh FleurD! :hug: i know how you feel...i thought it was going to be one of the Weasleys, or even Neville or Hagrid, but Sirius's death was just unexpected. i started crying when i got to the part where Sirius got hit by that spell. i really didn't expect that to happen. and i couldn't stop crying onwards. i didn't want to finish the book after that, but when i started reading from where i left off, i found it incredibly difficult to go through the sentences. then i started to cry even more when Dumbledore was trying to explain everything. i even had to read those chapters over again just to make sure i read them right. unbelievable :( :(

[Rivenlas]

:hug: Everyone.
I too have a little bit of a sore, tearstained face. What a horrible death! I cried from when Sirius died to the very end of the book...It was so quick, so final, and it seemed even Cedrics has more concentration on it...and i was waiting, thinking, oh, maybe it wasn't a deadly curse, he's like hermione, he's going to still have a pulse, Dumbledore'll die, just not Sirius...
But I guess not.
I too have been made fun of by my family, who will all bawl when they read it so I'm not worried. My brother, who doesnt even read them, tried to find out but I took my book back immediately.
Well, great book. Terribly sad, though.

[Colli]

What do you guys think about the manner of his death?

I mean, he died in battle, which was probably most important to him.

But that there was no body there to see lifeless, no "one last look"s... it made his death harder for me to accept. That he just disappeared behind that veil, it was hard for me.

Cedric had a body. A lifeless body. There was finality with that. Sirius disappearing out of sight doesn't cut it for me.

[Moggy]

As Colli pointed out there was no body and so I am not 100% convinced that Sirius is dead personally.

Through years of reading books and watching movies I have learnt that unless you see a body (and it has to be a very obviously dead body and be buried!!!!) then theres always a good chance that the so called dead person will re-appear. :)

[lizz]

Moggy I wish you are right, but I cant see that coming.

Colli I think if he had the choice between being locked up in that house or die in battle, I think he would go for the battle.

I love sirius, I love him, love him. His death really got me, I´m still kind of shocked.
I didnt get that whole veil thing, I couldn concentrate on that, same thing with the prophecy, since Sirius appeared in Harrys vision, I knew he was going to die and was shocked and concentrating on him.

Harry got the Firebolt, even if its locked up, right now, and the Marauders map even if thats not really a present of sirius.

And I´m really sorry for him he had such a sad life, I really wished he would be cleared survived and finally spend a happy time.

[Mirdan]

hey yeah! i forgot about Sirius's body...and JKR never really said what kind of spell Bellatrix threw at Sirius. i think. maybe she just put a hex on him then? i'm thinking that since there wasn't any flashes of green light that maybe Bellatrix never gave Sirius that Avada Kedavra curse. heh. i can dream, right? ;)

anywhooo...i've also been thinking about Sirius. isn't there any portrait of him at all that his mother hasn't chucked away yet? since pictures and portraits move and talk in the wizarding world, maybe Harry and Sirius can still get in touch with each other (that is, to say, that Sirius is really dead). of course, that also raises the question of whether or not Harry's own parents have their own portraits too.

but what do any of you think of Nigellus's (sp?) reaction when he heard about Sirius's death? disbelieving? incredulous? scornful? he did leave his portrait after he heard the news...

[Colli]

I think Nigellis (or however it's spelled) was in shock.. disbelieving.. that's why he ran to the house to check. Poor guy.

So, new question: How come some of the portraits can talk? Are they certain types of ghosts themselves?

[katzpotter]

After Sirius died I just shut my book and bawled for ten minutes straight. Sirius was a great man, Harry needed him, and he didn't deserve to die. I know J.K. must have a reason for killing him off, but... argh, my thoughts are all jumbled up now.

Rest In Peace, Sirius Black. You were a good man.

[Rivenlas]

Originally posted by Mirdan
hey yeah! i forgot about Sirius's body...and JKR never really said what kind of spell Bellatrix threw at Sirius. i think. maybe she just put a hex on him then? i'm thinking that since there wasn't any flashes of green light that maybe Bellatrix never gave Sirius that Avada Kedavra curse. heh. i can dream, right? ;)

but what do any of you think of Nigellus's (sp?) reaction when he heard about Sirius's death? disbelieving? incredulous? scornful? he did leave his portrait after he heard the news...

That was my first thought...they didn't say it was avada kedavra, he CAN'T BE DEAD, he's just a bit messed up, like Hermione, but I don't want to get my hopes up. But what about that mirror? That has to have some kind of impact, other than just the last thing Sirius gave Harry before he died. But would JKR have cried if he wasn't really dead? I don't know.

I thought Nigellus was a wonderful character. Small though his part was, he made me laugh, especially when he was talking about Dumbledore having style...LOL! But I do think he was very shaken by the death of his relative.

Poor, poor, Harry. He's back with the Dursley's. And poor, poor, Lupin, as someone pointed out--he should get a girl. Maybe him and Tonks, although I'm not sure I would like that.

[ChianaWeasley]

THANK YOU!
Thats what I've been saying since Saturday.
He isnt dead, when I read that part I just knew he wasnt dead. I didn't cry, because i know he's not dead.
I only cried with the mirror part.

But ,
a). no green flash, it was red light!!!
b). she didn't yell Avada Kedavra!!!
c). when he fell it didn't say he was dead
d). noone explianed the black veil

He is not dead
I've told anyone whose finished,
1,000,000,000 Galleons he is still alive
:)
And i stick to that!

[Fleur]

Oh Chiana, I think that is making me the saddest of all. The way she purposely left us hope - I think that is mean and cruel and wicked. I will never forgive JK for making me believe (even if only for moments) that Ron was dead, but I think that hit me harder than Sirius's death because she left it so open.

I think it is very plain he will not come back - because of the interview with JK the other day.

JKR: Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead.

And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil (JK's husband) said to me, "What on earth is wrong? and I said, Well, I've just killed the person".

Neil doesn't know who the person is. And he said, "Well, don't do it then." I thought, a doctor you know. And I said "Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer."


Why would she have cried if she knew he was coming back? I spose the interview may have been a bluff, but I think not. She hasn't lied about anything else.

Anybody read Wheel of Time here? When Moiraine vanished into the doorway? It's so like that, and I think it's awful, because it gives me false hopes and stops me from grieving properly

Fleir walks away sadly, muttering about grieving about a fictional character

[Moxie]

Originally posted by Rivenlas
...poor, poor, Lupin, as someone pointed out--he should get a girl. Maybe him and Tonks, although I'm not sure I would like that.

I smell fanfic here... something along the lines of Lupin asking Tonks out when what he really wants is Sirius back :( Doubt I'd write such a thing myself - I've had other plot bunnies hopping about my head for a while, some of which may be combining into a critical mass (Be afraid...)

[Colli]

You guys, do you really think that "Avada Kedavra" is the only curse that can kill someone?

A powerful curse right to the heart (such as the 4 Stunning Spells that hit McGonagall) could do it, it doesn't have to be the killing curse.

[stridersghirl]

That is the saddest i have ever been reading a book :( So upset i couldnt even tell you what happened in that next chapter.

poor Sirius, his life has just been the worst ever.

His family hated him and were all dark wizards
Then he sort of kills his best friend
Then he ends up in Azkaban
Then he ends up stuck in that house

:( :( :(

Then ends up dead

I'm hoping he isnt dead, that he will have done something to save himself.

What was the veil thing anyway ? Was it going through that killed him or was it the curse

And why the hell did he taunt that woman, when he said that i knew he was going to die :(

Poor poor Harry as well. I was so sure they were both going to end up happily living together after it was all over (Please bring Sirius back JK ! )

[Pengi]

I'm still grieving. :( It was so sudden that it took a minute for it to sink in, and I was totally in denial for a page or two. But now, I totally believe he's dead. I can't even give myself false hope. But I do hold out that there might be some way to contact him. Something to do with the veil, maybe.

Poor Lupin :( He's the last marauder. Two dead, one gone evil. *bawls her eyes out*

Originally posted by Moxie
I smell fanfic here... something along the lines of Lupin asking Tonks out when what he really wants is Sirius back :( Doubt I'd write such a thing myself - I've had other plot bunnies hopping about my head for a while, some of which may be combining into a critical mass (Be afraid...)
I can see that kind of thing being written. I don't think ... Lupin and Tonks ... no, it doesn't work for me. Especially not as a substitute for Sirius. Don't get me wrong, Tonks is great. But with Lupin ... I just can't see it.

Edited: What's up with my spelling? *thwaps self*

[ElfTBD]

You know, I was really sad when Sirius died, but what really got me teary eyed was Harry and Dumbledore's conversation after that where they both blamed themselves for his death...both tired, hurting, angry and sad...

oooh...I'm going to start crying here if I keep talking about it....

[Colli]

Grrrr... I blame Kreacher. Miserable house-elf. If Hermione says ONE MORE THING about SPEW, I'll just.. Grr....

:trout: Kreacher

:trout: :trout: :trout: :trout: :trout: :trout: :trout: :trout: :trout:

[ChianaWeasley]

But....but....but!!!!

You all have to believe me!

Oh! frustrated face
I feel like Harry when noone would believe that Voldemort had risen(Fudge mainly) and that all the death eaters got away with it!

You must beleive me!

Im not nutters!

Sirius is alive, he cant be dead!

He ISN'T gone!

I can feel it, why wont anyone believe my theory?!
:(

[Pengi]

*paddles down the Egyptian river with Chiana* I can see your point. :( There are lots of reasons why he shouldn't be dead. He had so much left to do. He was going to get his name cleared. He was Harry's only father-figure. His death was so sudden, that I couldn't believe it. It seemed so heartless and ... pointless.

I guess one of the reasons I don't actually want to believe is because it would make the wait for book 6 unbearable, not knowing whether he was alive or dead.

[ChianaWeasley]

Chiana crosses her arms in stubborn Weasley like defiance

He isn't dead.

Im not just saying this to convince myself, but when I read the part of the story I just knew.

He is still alive
:)

[Fleurdelacour]

I can see where Chiana is coming from... But as Fleur quoted from the Paxman interview (which I watched again lat night...) She did seem rather upset... In her funky kitchen...

Last night, there were no clouds in the sky for once, but the sky was a tad bit red, but I could (well I think...) see Sirius's star, the brightst star in the sky. I reckon it must have been that star, as it was the only one I could see... It's the only one I can ever see... It just made me so sad, and so sad for Remus, I adore Remus, naming first born son after him ;) (as long as he doesnt die...) But, oh... She was really ruthless in this murder... So evil...

What did everyone think of the mock deaths... Like Mrs Weasley's boggart of Ron, and Mr Weasley's attack, and Hermione's attack...

When Harry saw Ron's body, I just stopped. It was so early on in the book, and I refused to read any more until I got to my senses. I just sat in my reading corner in my room, just crying... It took me ages to start reading again and discovered it was just a Boggart...

Oh god, just reading this thread is making me cry... ok, please someone GIVE ME CHOCOLATE!!! :(

[Mirdan]

Originally posted by stridersghirl
His family hated him and were all dark wizards
Then he sort of kills his best friend
Then he ends up in Azkaban
Then he ends up stuck in that house

:( :( :(

Then ends up dead
oh bother...that such a dismal life. :(

half of me thinks he's really dead, but the other half stubbornly refuses to admit that he is.

[Colli]

Chiana, he's dead. :( Really.

Ahh! The mock deaths! When I read the boggart scene, I knew they were really alive. That didn't bother me. But Mr Weasley, Katie Bell's unstoppable nosebleed, and the Stunning Spells to McGonagall, :( really had me worried.

I was never really worried about Hagrid (once I started reading) ... pre-release we made the Giant thing into this huge deal. But it really wasn't, was it?

[lizz]

I would love him to be alive after all, but I cant really see it.

His life was really really sad but it makes him a real tragic hero.

Fleur I dont mind the mock deads. Somehow I didnt fear for hermione. mrs.wealseys fears are realistic. And I think the attac on Arthur was necerssary to make harry believe what he sees that he goes to the ministry to save sirius in the end. I guess he would have done it anyway, but it made it just more realistic and so it was important that harry trusted what he was seeing.
Thats another very sad story. harry goes to save Sirius but that actually kills Sirius.

For the alive supporters what do you think Sirius is doing, why doesnt he tell the others he is not dead?

I think he is definitly dead. What puzzles me is the veil thing, I dont get what this about. Is there any mention of the arc and veil other than the dead scene? Its really sad and scary he vanishes like that. And what do you make of the people whispering behind the veil? Dead people welcoming the one about to die. Maybe just curious looking at the battle. But i´d really like that one explained.

[Athelas]

from Fleurdelacourplease someone GIVE ME CHOCOLATE!!!
Yes, I think we could all use some when entering this thread:(

I think he is really dead, but I wish he weren't. I think I'll be hoping all the way to the end of Book 7!

I also don't really understand what the veil is supposed to be, but although I tried to read OOTP very carefully, I got so caught up in the emotion of Harry seeing Sirius and Voldemort that I started racing through the end--I DEFINITELY have to read it again (what a shame;) )

And I ended up really liking Nigellus; I hope he makes a return appearance. He seemed to admire his great-whatever nephew and be truly upset by his death.

[ChianaWeasley]

Chiana:hug:Fleur

[AnulaCalimdal]

I've only just stopped crying for the 6th time since I read Sirius's death about three hours ago.

Sirius Black was my favourite character. He represented hope, in my opinion, hope that Harry would one day be able to live with him and have a real father figure in his life. Even further than that, I loved his character. His personality, he was fun loving and risky and caring all at once.

He's got to truly be dead, I don't see him all of a sudden reappearing in the next book. It's not going to happen. ::sigh:: even though I wish it would.

I wish I hadn't known that a death was going to occur in this book, ever since the beginning I've been suspecting one character or another. First, I thought it was going to be Percy because he was such an ass, but then I realized that not many people would care much if he kicked it. My next target was Hagrid. Then Mr. and/or Mrs. Weasely. But I wasn't expecting Sirius, not until Harry had that vision. Nearer to the end, though, when Hermione got hurt all I could think was "Maybe it will be Hermione, maybe Sirius will be okay" Which would be ridiculous as she's one of the MAIN characters. (Note: Main in BIG letters.)

I don't think I've ever cried over the death of a fictional character, none have touched me as much as the characters of these books. Maybe because I've been reading them for so long, before the became popular at all I had picked up the first one, and I've been sticking with them during my transition between childhood to teenager. They've sort of grown up with me.

Rest in peace, Sirius.

:hug:s, everybody else.

~Anula

[katzpotter]

Okay, everyone, I wrote a poem! I hope you all like it. It's long.....

Dogstar, Padfoot, many names had you,
Sirius Black, dog of pranks,
We will sorely miss you,
We owe you our thanks.

For embarrassing Snape
When none could do so;
For brightening our lives
Why did you have to go?

It was J.K.’s fault
She killed you off
What was that curse?
It’s caused us all to scoff.

Not Avada Kedavra
There was no green light
You vanished behind that veil
You disappeared from sight.

We’re missing you a lot.
Sirius, why did you have to die?
You helped along the plot.
You made us all cry.

She had a reason,
She always does.
We’re still sad;
We’re still mad.

Curse J.K., we all want to.
But it's a thing only wizards
Are capable to do.
Gosh, we’ll miss you.

You’re gone now,
Gone from Harry’s life,
You’re gone from us,
Gone from our lives.

You grew up in hell.
Your mother hated you.
You knew very well
Where you’d run off to.

James, Prongs, your best friend.
Pranksters, Messrs.;
He met an untimely end.
You are with him.

Remus, Moony, God bless him,
Werewolf, prankster,
And you were still his friend.
He will miss you.

Peter, Wormtail, slimy traitor.
You escaped Azkaban
Just to keep him from Harry.
He betrayed you.

And you, Padfoot, innocent man,
Prankster, Godfather,
Escaped man.
Gone are you.

This lament,
It cannot go on.
You aren’t here;
You are gone.

Sirius, I’m sorry,
This is all I can offer.
A lament for you, Padfoot:
The Lost Marauder.

Writing this made me feel a bit better....

[lithorose]

lith runs back to her kleenex box. My garbage can's gonna overflow.:(

That was really well written, just makes me sad to think about it.
A lament for you, Padfoot:
The Lost Marauder. lith starts bawling...

[katzpotter]

I'm planning on putting together a collage of Sirius fanart.... If anybody wants it, e-mail me.

Thanks, Lith! It made me cry, too.

[ChianaWeasley]

Chiana runs around scooping up everyone on the thread giving them hugs
:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[ElfTBD]

Originally posted by Athelas
I also don't really understand what the veil is supposed to be, but although I tried to read OOTP very carefully, I got so caught up in the emotion of Harry seeing Sirius and Voldemort that I started racing through the end--I DEFINITELY have to read it again (what a shame;) )

Weeeelll...(Warning: a bit of theology ahead)

In pagan circles, one way we describe the dead are that they are "beyond the veil"...ie: they have crossed the threshold between the living and the dead...yes, yes, I KNOW JK's not pagan or whatever, but it is a concept in lots of European pagan mythologies...

Personally, I was quite tickled that she wrote it in...and the part about how Harry and Luna could hear the voices...:D makes me wonder how that's going to play out in the next book....

[Fleurdelacour]

Regarding the veil... I just did a Harry Potter quotes quiz, got 5.5 right, ;) but thats not the point, one of the quotes was:

"Many witches and wizards, talented though they are in the area of loud bangs and smells and sudden disappearings, are yet unable to penetrate the veiled mysteries of the future."

Trelawny said it... Could it mean anything? That there is something ludicrously secret about that veil... Or is it just a plain coinsidence?

[owl]

Fleurdelacour, you've got a point. I think one on the chapters is called something about a veil in it.

On a totally different point,

the thoughts of my brain

Sirius-dead :eek:
Start crying your head off
Get control of your self-
Stop yelling
Eat some choclatee
Stop crying
Get reading

[lizz]

Fleur, it might mean something. Maybe the third occasion Trelawney got something right ;)

But I´m starting to think there is more to that veil thing. Wishful thinking I guess. Ok its the wizarding world but it is still very strange there is a veil hanging in a room, a man falls through it, dies obviously and there is no body? I´ve got to read the end again, I´m always to distracted by Sirius death to pay complete attention, but Dumbedore didnt have to say something about that. Maybe its just some entry to the "underworld"? But I also noticed Bellatrix tried to tell Voldemort something about Sirius death, him falling through the curtains.

And I´d like to know which spell he was hit with.

But if there was more to it, wouldnt dumbledore mention it? or Lupin say something? Both say sirius is dead.

The veil is mysterious and scary.

[lithorose]

I can't remember the exact quote, but Shelley in one of his poems refers to death (or life) as a 'painted veil'. When I find it I'll post it.

The veil could be life rather than death. Like removing the wool from someone's eyes, dying would be removing all the limitations of the body that block our sight. Like all the mysteries have been removed. and there is no coming back from that. Maybe. It's just a thought. It is really weird though that there's no body.

edit: anyone else think that thing was some sort of execution device at some point?

[ChianaWeasley]

Well, it reminded me of 'The minister's Black Veil' by Nathaniel Hawthorne. Doesn't have anything to do with the part of the book, but the semester before summer I had Honors American Literature. And I thought 'wow, knowledge of Hawthorn finally came in handy...

Dont mean to offend any Hawthorn fans out there!
:)

:hug: for owl

:)

[Rivenlas]

Ah, that made me all teary-eyed. Poor feller. :(

Anyway, Chiana, I would LOVE to support the theory that Sirius is still alive. I can't believe he is dead either! After all, JKR didn't tell the whole truth on what she was going to put in the fifth book, did she? So maybe she's just got us going with Sirius.
Or that's what I'd like to think...apparently my cousin agrees with this too but I'm afraid to get my hopes up and then cry the entire 6th book when he doesn't show up!

Better get out of this thread before my keyboard shorts out from all the serious eye leakage...

[ChianaWeasley]

Theres always room for hope Rivenlas
:hug:

[Athelas]

Thanks Katz (weeping smiley here)

[Elbereth94]

I have been so depressed ever since I read the death of Sirius. He has been my favourite character from the minute he tore the hell out of Ron's curtains. He was wonderful- humorous, immature and caring. We all had loving, warm fantasies of the life that Sirius and Harry would one day have together.

Unfortunately, that life we had all hoped for, has been ripped way from us. I keep hoping and hoping that Sirius will somehow make a miraculous appearance...but I just can't see it. After reading the books, I felt a dull ache, as though I had lost a loved one and I was soon crying.

I believe that Sirius is dead. Nearly Headless Nick seemed to know that he had passed on...he knew that he wouldn't become a ghost.

I think what makes Sirius' death so hard for us to deal with, is the fact that the last year of his life was so hard for him. Trapped inside in a house that reminded him of an awful childhood...Sirius had nothing to live for save Harry. I know that perhaps if Sirius' name could have been cleared or if Harry could have spent one full summer with Sirius, his death would be all so much more easier to bear.

As for Remus, of course we all pity him, the last of his four friends, his life seems to me a shallow reflection of what it once was. I supported a Remus/Tonks relationship even before the death of Sirius and now I think it is just what he needs. Remus aged too quickly and someone like Tonks will remind him how to be young again.

All in all, Book 5 was considerably darker than its prequels. I can only say that, if this was how dark and painful for the readers book 5 was, how are we going to survive book 6 and 7?

[Rivenlas]

Support for all the mourners/believers/hopers! HUGE :hug:

[katzpotter]

You're welcome Athelas. It made me feel better, too.

I am in-between believing he really IS dead and believing he isn't. There is excellent proof that he could be dead and he couldn't, so I linger in-between.

Yesh. Anyways, I have put up a Sirius Black Commemorative Page on my website.

[Monkfish]

Just remember..........a dog isn`t just for OOTP......it`s for life!:)

[Fimbrethil]

*sob* *sob* *sob*

Just wandered in here to pour some grief from my bleeding soul. Didn't expect to see soooo many sad posts that had me blubbering again... :( :(

I can't believe that Sirius is dead.... How could she just kill him off like that?!? His death is horribly shaky. We didn't even know what spell hit him! Maybe he was just stunned as he fell through the portal. Then what?!? All I'm saying is that JK Rowling has a hell of an explanation to make in the 6th book! And she'd better make it believable!! :mad:

I'd definitely miss his sense of fun and humour! Remember the part where he threathened Kreacher that he WILL BE a murderer if the confounded house-elf wouldn't stop muttering! :(

Can't seem to smile no matter what... :( I think I'll go and lie down now... *sigh* *sob*

[Kristin]

NOOOO!!! Not Sirius! :( :mad: :( :( :( :(

He was my absolute favorite character in the whole series. Why did she have to kill him? Why?!

Anybody else I could have handled. And now I resent Hagrid and others for still being alive.


I keep trying to laugh at myself for taking it so seriously, tell myself it's only a book.... Nope. Not working. I was crying so hard after it happened and cried even harder at the bit with the mirror. I'm a very depressed and disgruntled HP fan right now. :(

[Princess Aurora]

I was so shocked it was Sirius... and the way she did it, it was so abrupt! :( He was fast becoming one of my favorite characters, and I was incredibly sad to see him go. I had my money on Hagrid, and after Book 5 I've gotta say I probably would've preferred my way!

About the veil thing.. ElfTBd mentioned the pagan religion thing, although it's not only pagan religions that mention a veil (not trying to turn this into a religious discussion, sorry). In the Mormon religion, we believe that when we came to earth we crossed through a "veil" which separated us (and our memory) from our pre-mortal life. So then, when someone dies, they are going back through, or beyond, the veil.

And yes, the chapter in which Sirius dies is called "Beyond the Veil."

[ChianaWeasley]

Im slowly gathering people to my idea, my chum Avada Kedavra agrees with me.

For those of you that dont agree just remember this,
there is always room for hope :)

But Sirius IS alive, I know it
:)

[katzpotter]

Chiana, you're right. There is always hope.

I plan to paint a picture of The Death. Hopefully I'll be able to get it up on my website and then link to it.... Don't expect it for a while, though....

[Reba]

well, I figured it was going to be Sirius, Ron or Hagrid. And I'm sorry to say, I wasn't really all that surprised it was Sirius, and despite the fact I would have liked for Sirius and Harry to have been able to be some sort of family to each other eventually, I wasn't really all that saddened by his death. (Might have something to do with that I was at a real funeral for my cousin just today before I finished the last couple of chapters, and real life is always more real than a book)

I think the spell was just a stun hex and as he fell backwards it was just fluke that the veil was there, and the veil is a portal of some sort to the Otherworld and even if the spell didn't kill him, there's no coming back from the Otherworld. Everyone there but Harry seemed quite sure that there was no way to save him from it, even Dumbledore, and he should know right?

I don't think the portraits are ghosts, I think they're just enchanted paintings, so its possible maybe that someone *could* paint a portrait of Sirius and hang him up somewhere at Hogwarts, or give it to Harry, but I don't think that'll happen.

All in all, I thought the book was ok. I was just disappointed not so much in who it was that got killed, but in the manner in which it was written. Not very spectacular, kind of anti-climactic, and...I dunno...boring...any of the characters would have deserved more attention or a more flashy death scene than what he got IMO.

*shrug* Its just a book after all. Life is just so much more real and harsh. And yet it goes on.

[Elbereth94]

I agree with you, Reba. The whole thing did seem rather anti-climatic. JK Rowling said she cried over having to kill Sirius, but you would think that she would make it something more spectacular.

The least he could have done was sacrficed himself for Harry or something, not died because he was too busy taunting his cousin to pay attention to the actual fight...though now that I think of it, that sounds an awful lot like the Sirius we all knew and loved

[ChianaWeasley]

It may be true Reba, that you cannot return from another world.

But, you cannot return from a life sentance in Azkaban either

;)
:)

[Colli]

:sniff: :(

Anyway, about the manner in which Sirius died, Rowling had some to say about that at the Royal Albert Hall thing.

I think what I was trying to do with the death in this book was show how very arbitrary and sudden death is. This is a death where you didn't have a big death bed scene. It happened almost accidentally and that is one of the very cruel things about death and they're now in a war situation where that really does happen, where one minute you're talking to your friend and the next minute he's gone. It's so shocking and so inexplicable… "Where did they go?" I found it upsetting to write, because I knew what it would mean to Harry.

Full transcript here (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkr-royalalbert.shtml).

[Pippin]

by AnulaCalimdal
I wish I hadn't known that a death was going to occur in this book, ever since the beginning I've been suspecting one character or another. Me too! At around p. 600 when I realised nobody had died yet I kept looking for signs and changing my mind every two pages who it was going to be. Very stressful.

It´s beginning to sink in for me, too… (I finished the book yesterday).


Did I see this coming? Not after Harry´s vision of Voldemort torturing Sirius. I never thought for a moment that it was a trap, and then logically came to the conclusion that Harry would naturally be able to save Sirius.

I didn´t even get it when it actually happened. Sirius´ death was so – well, as Reba has said, unspectacular. Anticlimatic. Quiet. The way the scene is written, there´s no stage set for it, and it´s quickly over. Sirius doesn´t get the chance for any “last words” but 1. that’s what life is like, as Jo Rowling says in that interview, 2. I´d have dissolved in tears otherwise, and 3. it could even have been cheesy.


Originally posted by Elbereth94
The least he could have done was sacrficed himself for Harry or something, not died because he was too busy taunting his cousin to pay attention to the actual fight...though now that I think of it, that sounds an awful lot like the Sirius we all knew and loved. True. :( :)




I want to know what the Veil means. Why Sirius disappeared behind it. There must be some significance to that. I feared for a moment that he´d become a ghost that way, an idea which I hated, so I was relieved when Nearly Headless Nick as good as guaranteed us it won´t happen. But still, it would have been easier for Harry to say goodbye if he´d been able to see the body.

There is something definitely dodgy about the spell and the veil and how they all amount to his death but I think death it is. I´m not going to keep anyone from walking around wearing “Sirius lives!” badges but don´t get your hopes up, folks. :(



Of course I didn´t want Sirius to die. Not that soon anyway. :o
There was so much more potential in his character, all the things he could have done for the Order, and for Harry, and not least of all his relationship with Snape, I was so sure it would be a big issue for a long while yet (the scene in the kitchen being just a rather lame prequel to it), and pivotal to how the interaction of the members of the Order would work out.

But it was not meant to be. :(


I did wonder a lot about what would become of Sirius. Of course it´s a terrible shame that his innocence has been established and that his name will be cleared only after his death. But would he ever have been happy again living a normal life in the wizarding world, after 12 years of Azkaban and two years of hiding?

Has Sirius ever really been happy in his life? Did he have it in him to be really happy? With that family, and everything that happened after he left school? Maybe the only time of his life when he was really happy was at school with his friends, and that time was irrevocably over.


For me, Sirius will forever be romping about the Hogwarts grounds in the shape of Padfoot, with his faithful friends Remus and James at his side. :)

[Remus]

I read the death scene last night after my school prom, so I was feeling quite down already, but ended up in serious tears as I read it. I didn't really think I'd be so affected by the death of a book character like that. :(

I honestly didn't see it coming, it seems kind of obvious now looking back on the book, but I didn't see it before I read the whole fight scene. Even though I really loved Sirius' character, I can see that, by killing him off, JKR has left herself with quite a few options about how to move the story on. Otherwise, it could become a little idilic and unrealistic if he managed to survive to book 7 (knowing his reckless nature and his desperation to leave the house throughout OotP.)

I'm also wondering about that whole stuff with the veil, but I suppose we may find out about that later.

[Princess Aurora]

Colli, thanks for that quote from JKR, it's an excellent quote, and I definitely accept the death scene more now, sad though it is. :(

Concerning the death: as far as I'm concerned, Sirius is dead and that's that. I posted this in the OotP thread as well, that even if he could come back somehow, I don't know that I'd want him to (this goes for James and Lily as well), because it would make his death seem too... I dunno, fake and trivial. Just my opinion, I'm not trying to rain on others' parades.

Concerning the veil: as I said earlier, that it seems like a sort of gateway to death or the afterlife. They mentioned that that room is called (I believe) the Room of Death. So it seems to make sense that he had sort of fallen through the veil into death, and since he chose to go on rather than stick around and become a ghost, there can be no return. I don't think the curse itself had anything to do with his death. Heck, she could've just pushed him in and it would've had the same effect, I think (on his death, not the story).

[Fleurdelacour]

Regarding JKR's quote...

I think, she's almost telling us, there are going to be a lot of sudden deaths in Book Six... for all we know, Harry and Ron could be chatting about Quidditch... Then my beloved Ron just keels over... hit by some spell a Gryffindor used under the influence of the Imperious curse... :(

I still cant believe he is dead... Sirius was a symbol of hope... He got through Azkaban, he found Harry... Even after his best friend's death, he carried on... And now... He's gone...

Who does Harry have to look up to now? What's Remus going to do? :(

*sigh*

[Kristin]

I definitely think he's dead to stay. :(

The thing I have a problem with is the "need" for Sirius to die. At the moment, it seems like JKR killed him to show that death can be horrible, sudden, senseless, tragic, etc. I understand that that's a true lesson, which everyone must learn at some point. But real life teaches about the cruelty and randomness of death all too often. Is it JKR's duty to teach that lesson in a book?

What I'm saying is... Is Sirius' death essential to the greater plot of the series? Or is it just that JKR wanted to show how horrible death is but not serve any greater purpose in her stories. Unfortunately, we have to wait until book 6 to find out. (And I really hope it's not the second alternative.)

[Colli]

:) I would assume that the death has a greater purpose, the famous quote of her talking to her husband after writing it makes it sound like it was really necessary to the storyline.

But that phrase... "Is it JKR's duty...". That bothers me, and I think it would bother her to hear it, too. She's writing a story, and she's chosen to teach lessons on bigotry, among many other things. Who is to tell her what she "should" and shouldn't be teaching?

[katzpotter]

Originally posted by Fleurdelacour
I still cant believe he is dead... Sirius was a symbol of hope... He got through Azkaban, he found Harry... Even after his best friend's death, he carried on... And now... He's gone...

Who does Harry have to look up to now? What's Remus going to do? :(

*sigh*

I completely agree.... he was a sign of hope. Now that sign of hope has been destroyed, and we can only look forward to book six with heavy hearts and troubled minds.

Now the only people I can see Harry looking up to are Dumbledore and Remus.

As for Remus... I don't know.

Kristin, that is a good point. What is the 'need' for Sirius to die? My sister and I can see no need whatsoever. I suppose we might see the 'need' later on in the series, but..... ARGH.

My sister had hoped it would be Fudge that died. I wish it were so, he's such a GIT.

Yes. He is. In a spiffy Nifflers (aka cool) fic that I read by Lily Granger, Sirius traces all the events regarding him back to Fudge during a rant at Snape.

"CORNELIUS FUDGE WAS THE ONE WHO HANDED ME OVER TO CROUCH!!!!!!!!!! HE WAS THE ONE THAT CAUSED ME TO ESCAPE BY GIVING ME THAT PAPER! THAT RESULTED IN ME BREAKING RON'S LEG, WHICH MADE HARRY ALMOST KILL ME, WHICH MADE REMUS COME OUT, WHICH MADE US EXPLAIN THE WHOLE THING, WHICH MADE US STAY THERE UNTIL THE MOON ROSE, WHICH ALMOST MADE ALL OF US GET THE KISS, AND IT DID LET WORMTAIL GET AWAY!!!!!!!! IF IT WEREN'T FOR HIM, THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE!!!"

I completely agree. The world would be a better place. However, Sirius would probably still be dead.

God bless his soul. I for one will still linger in-between death and life. (As in, I won't believe he's dead or alive.)

[Kristin]

Originally posted by Colli
She's writing a story, and she's chosen to teach lessons on bigotry, among many other things. Who is to tell her what she "should" and shouldn't be teaching?

I'm not saying what she should or shouldn't do. But the bigotry thing, for example, seems like that's just natural in the course of the story. She includes that theme because it's relevant to the story as opposed to sitting down at her computer and saying, "Right. I'm going to teach children lessons about bigotry." The bigotry theme teaches lessons, but that's only its secondary purpose. Its primary purpose is to tell the story.

That's what I'm saying about the death. If her purpose in killing off Sirius is to tell the story and it happens to teach about death along the way, that's OK. But if the *main* reason she killed Sirius is because she thinks people need to learn about death... well, I find that kind of strange.

Not that I'm saying that the second scenario IS the case. I'm just saying "IF."



I just found this bit from the Katie Couric interview (emphasis mine):

"It was awful to write. It was absolutely awful. And I was literally, well I did, I cried after doing it, and walked into the kitchen afterwards in tears. And Neil said to me, ‘What’s the matter?’ And I said, ‘Well I’ve just killed the person that I’m going to kill.’ He doesn’t know who it is. And Neil said, ‘Well, don’t do it then.’ Which showed he completely didn’t understand that you need to be very unpleasant and vicious to your characters to write heart-warming children’s books."

I don't know about you, but MY heart sure isn't warmed.

[swiftsnowmane]

Oh dear.:(

I know I'm late to the discussion, but I was gone for a week at that sword fighting thing I mentioned before. Well, I finished OotP while I was still at the event, and that was a bad idea. :( The day I finished it happened also to be my birthday, and while I was happy to be at the event, I was already missing being with my sisters for my birthday.
So I got to the point where Sirius dies and I just couldn't go on after that chapter. I was in total shock and loathing at JKR for killing my favorite hottie Sirius. :p There was an evening revel starting about then, so I had to stop reading anyway. I felt a dull, disbelieving, hollow ache towards what I had just read, and I almost wanted to forget that I had actually just read a Harry Potter book. (THAT has never happened before). :(
So I went to the party but eventually I couldn't stand being around all those people having fun while I was so upset, so I left the bonfire area and started to walk back to my camp alone. (This whole time I haven't cried yet, since I was the only girl in a bunch of guys and I was trying to be tough. :o) As I walked across the darkening field, the night was clear and the stars were out. I tried to look for Sirius's star when I saw something else move nearby. To my everlasting astonishment, the most beautiful black dog I have ever seen was standing there, looking at me.

For a split second I truly believed that Padfoot had returned to me in some form. But then the dog's owner called it back and broke my little reverie. That's when I started sobbing because I knew he would not be coming back. :(

So I almost spent the weirdest birthday night I've ever had crying pathetically alone in my tent, but then a guy who I had met on the battlefield the previous day stopped by our camp where I was sitting alone by the fire. He liked Harry Potter too, but hadn't finished the 5th book yet, so we ended up talking about a whole range of other things, from Lord of the Rings to comparitive religion, and he basically helped cheer me up a little.:) By the time I went to bed I was in a state where I was calmer, but still couldn't sleep, so I finished the book. I still couldn't really believe what happened, but I didn't let it ruin the rest of my time at the event. In fact, later I realized that the gorgeous black dog I had seen that night belonged to one of the other fighters and had been there the whole time, but that I hadn't seen it before that night. The rest of the week I tried to meet new people and not think about Harry Potter too much. (Though I did take out some of my frustration on some poor bloke on the battle field ;)).

So anyways, my apologies for the long story, but such strangely sad and silently beautiful moments don't happen all the time.

Sirius, with Blackest blood in your vein,
You were unloved
And your family spared you no pain
You were unloved
But Azkaban would have left a lesser being insane,
Though not yet loved
You escaped to expose a traitor’s feign
You were now loved
And we felt your happiness would reign

But now you live no longer on this plane,
You were loved,
And it was your bane.
Once unloved
You are now free of your chain
You are loved
May we forever hear your friendly feet padding behind the Hogwarts train

You were loved
Let us hope your death was not in vain.


*sobs* ( though partially for the pathetic nature of above poem ;) )

[Kristin]

:hug: swiftsnowmane


OotP has left me with a really negative feeling because of the death. :( I saw the book in a grocery store and felt this pang of sadness. Has that happened to anyone else?

I've been feeling rather down because of a book! Gosh, I'm so pathetic! :o

[katzpotter]

:hug: swiftsnowmane, too.

Believe me, I couldn't finish the book after he died, either. I cried for ten minutes straight after he died, I just shut my book and bawled.

I've just finished reading it again, and my gosh.... I am furious, yelling, screaming, stomping, and having a conniption fit. It is quite possible I'm deranged, but still....

ARGH! I am so mad.... at Dumbledore, at Fudge, at Harry.... Yes, Harry. 'Course, my friend's just said not to blame Harry... Erg...

Anyways, I'm still having a hard time accepting his death. Believe me, I'm trying not to.

[Reba]

Which showed he completely didn’t understand that you need to be very unpleasant and vicious to your characters to write heart-warming children’s books."

uh? :confused: How the heck is killing a well loved character considered a heart-warming children's book? :confused:

I think she's cracked!

[katzpotter]

I completely agree, Reba.

And swiftsnowmane.... that was a lovely poem. I'm sure it's better than mine....

[Princess Aurora]

Hmmmm, could she possibly have been going for sarcasm there? You know, kinda rolling her eyes at herself that she's killing off people and writing loathsome characters, therefore clearly NOT writing heartwarming children's books?

Just an idea...

[Fleurdelacour]

that's a beautiful poem swifty :hug: I've got tears in my eyes :(

Does anyone feel they cant read PoA ever again with out bursting into tears? I dont think I'll be able to read it... I tried last night, I opened the book to the Cat, Rat, and Dog Chapter, to read when Remus reilised it wasn't Sirius who betrayed James and Lily and killed Peter.... I just started to bawl my eyes out... I then eventually feel asleep and started having horrible nightmares about death...

I think, what makes Sirius's death even sadder (well for me anyway, I dont know about any of you) but as a Hogwarts student he was mischeivious, he was bright, he had a good future ahead of him, with the greatest friends in the world... Then all the stuff with Voldie happened, he got chucked into Azkaban, etc... Then, he dies... And Remus, (now offically my favourite character...) he's had a tough life as it is, but he has lost all the friends he had at Hogwarts, who helped him through his werewolfness (there is a proper word, but I've forgotten it...) and two of them are dead... one of them is a, well, I cant swear...

It's so sad...

I saw the book in a grocery store and felt this pang of sadness. Has that happened to anyone else?

Yes, all the media hype was (its thankfully died down a bit now...) has been so, well enthusiastic about the book, but when I see the book, and all the publicity around it, I just feel so sad... The Death, as the media calls it, is just more then someone dieing, its much worse... blah... blabbing again...

Remus needs a hug...

[Pengi]

Fleur - I feel exactly the same way :( I tried reading some parts of PoA today, and it made me start crying. Especially the bits when Harry was talking to Lupin about Sirius :( It seems like such a waste that Sirius escaped after 12 years, and then died so soon after. For Lupin, too. He believed Sirius was guilty for 12 years, but soon after they were reunited, Sirius was taken away again...

And in the shrieking shack. When Lupin goes over to help Ron and Ron says "Get away from me, werewolf!" Remus has been shunned from society for being what he is, and that comment obviously hurt him a lot. It's something I didn't really notice in the first reading.

"Lupin turned away from the archway as he spoke. It sounded as though every word was causing him pain."

*cries her eyes out* How is he going to cope? He's the last marauder... he doesn't have anyone to keep him company on the full moon anymore. :(

Swiftsnowmane, your poem was lovely :hug:

[Fleurdelacour]

Oh Pengi, I noticed them on the second reading too... And I only noticed Ron actually saying that last night, and I've read PoA more times then any other book... Maybe it was because I was in such a "everyone should give that Remus some serious hugs!" mood...

That quote Pengi just makes me cry... Getting teary again! I need chocolate... Or the one that says:

"He Cant come back Harry," said Lupin, his voice breaking as he struggled to contain Harry.

So sad...
:(

:hug: for everyone

[Marchwarden]

Originally posted by Pengi

*cries her eyes out* How is he going to cope? He's the last marauder... he doesn't have anyone to keep him company on the full moon anymore. :(

Swiftsnowmane, your poem was lovely :hug:

One could not help but notice that, according to his initial description in OotP, he's clearly deteriorating. I hate to admit that my hopes for Mr. Moony have grown quite faint.:(

[Princess Aurora]

Thanks for posting those two quotes from OotP, Fleur and Pengi... that is why I was so surprised that everyone thought Remus wasn't grieving for Sirius. It was there, but he couldn't just fall on his knees and sob for his lost friend... he had Harry to think about. And often, silent mourning is more painful than outward sorrow.

[katzpotter]

Remus... of course he's grieving..... And I'm sure that Dumbledore's grieving too. I mean, <beep>, Sirius was a darn good man. He was kind to Harry, except when he tried to strangle him, but all in all, he was kind.

*sniffles* I'm going to have another conniption fit once I finish OotP again.

Someone should start a 'Hug poor Remus' thread or something, if one hasn't already been started.

Poor Remy....

[jesuisalleeaujardin]

some people are hoping rowling would write about the marauderers after she finishes this 7. i dunno if i want that coz it's the technique that george lucas is using right now with star wars! and... while we could speculate that the jarjar phenomenon won't touch the HP series... it'll be another "i wonder what happened in the past that got voldie to act like that... i wonder why in the world was harry pegged... i wonder what sirius' family is like!"

i take it back! if it's about those four, i'll take it! i'll read it! :D

jardin

[Pengi]

Jardin - I've been hoping that. I'd really lke to read more about the MWPP era. Remus and Sirius are my favourite characters, and I loved Snape's Worst Memory ... it would be great to know more. :)

He can't come back Harry... :hug:s Fleur *cries again* Is there a Hug Remus thread? He definately deserves one.

Marchwarden - I don't like to think about him detoriating, but I think you're right. :( Please don't kill him off, JK...

[Fimbrethil]

swiftsnowmane~ That was a beautiful poem... *sob* :hug: *sniff* We will definitely miss the soft sounds of his 'friendly feet padding behind the Hogwarts train' :(

I've actually been able to subdue my grief over the past few days but after discussing the book with my friend who had just read it..... I'm back in the pits again.... :( I fear that must it be so. I still have about a ton of friends who haven't read it yet...... :(
*sorry if i'm whining too much* :o

Originally posted by jesuisalleeaujardin

i take it back! if it's about those four, i'll take it! i'll read it! :D


I totally agree with you on that one, jardin! I'd love to read about Sirius' and James' era! :)

[Fleurdelacour]

I found this, regarding Remus's failing health! It's a werewolf legend website, they even have several sections on our favourite werewolf :)

They are extremely healthy individuals with a great life expectancy. They do not age as rapidly as a normal humans and will most likely outlive most of the people with whom they associate.

Hairy Snout, Human Heart (http://www.werewolfregistry.net/hairy.html)

I do think it's awfully sad Remus has lycanthropy... But then again the Mauraders wouldn't be who they were...

:hug: everyone :(

[Marchwarden]

Originally posted by Fleurdelacour
I found this, regarding Remus's failing health! It's a werewolf legend website, they even have several sections on our favourite werewolf :)



Hairy Snout, Human Heart (http://www.werewolfregistry.net/hairy.html)

I do think it's awfully sad Remus has lycanthropy... But then again the Mauraders wouldn't be who they were...

:hug: everyone :(

Thanks for the link; it not only provides copious information, but is a springboard to a treasure trove of Remus fan prose and poetry. I was especially heartened to see the excerpts in which JKR discusses how much she loves RL and how much she enjoys writing him. Unless Escalation Theory compels JKR to sacrifice a character dear to her own heart next, we can hope that our beloved Lupin is safe; the ominous hints are only there to scare us.

[Fleurdelacour]

I am BOILING WITH ANGER right now... Very early in the morning, and just been reading PoA.... Getting to the point...

I swear to God, if JKR doesn't give a reason for Sirius's death, then I will, do something rash...

It seems such a bloody waste (yes i have just realised all this now) Harry and Hermione risking their lives and sanity to save Sirius, and for what? For him to be killed!!! :mad:

Oh, and Harry better get bloody vengance for his murder!! If he's going to loose his temper again, let it be on bloody Bellatrix Lesranges!!!!

:mad: might go back to bed now....

[swiftsnowmane]

I know EXACTLY how you feel, FleurD. :mad: :(

That's part of the reason I just can't bring myself to reread any of the previous books right now....I think I might just explode.:eek:

[Fimbrethil]

Thanks for the site, Fleur! It was really informative! :) Guess what? I don't know about you people but I went to check out how Lupin'll look in the movie and he's totally :swoon: :swoon:

Check this out:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9633/misc5.jpg

Gorgeous, ain't he?

P.S. There seem to be a problem with the pic being accesible. If you can't see the pic, try going to this site:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9633/misc5.jpg

[1SmallHobbit]

Thank goodness Elwen directed me here.

I can't take this sadness! Sirius was my favorite character by far. I miss him so much!! I cried so much, I know it seems stupid, but I just can't believe it! He was the best ever and now there is just nobody to take his place.:(:(

So anyway, I may just be in denial, but I will not and cannot admit that he is dead forever...he must come back at some point, I don't care how, just in some way we're going to hear from him again.

And I'm going to the Yule Ball with him again, even if he is dead, I could never go with anyone else, can't even think to ask anyone else yet, though the Ball is pretty far away.

I know Harry didn't really know what he was doing, but I am so angered with him now! It wasn't his fault entirely, but if he had at least tried to practice his Occlumency! And he didn't! Look what happened!:mad: He just wouldn't listen to anyone. I'm so angered and annoyed with him!:mad::mad:

Sorry all diehard Harry fans, I've just been annoyed with him the entire book.

Okay I'll be back to discuss poor Sirius' death another day. In the meantime, *HUGS* for everyone who is in mourning over his loss.

~Onesie

[swiftsnowmane]

Its easy to blame Harry, Onesie, and I can see your point.:( Heck, I was even mad at him for a while about it too. But its really not Harry's fault. Its more like a combination of things, and you can't really blame one character. Even Harry tries to blame anyone but himself. He blames Snape and even Dumbledore. But you coudl really blame anyone. From Snape for ruining Sirius's chance of being cleared in Book Three; to Fudge for refusing to accept the truth; to Umbridge for creating such an atmosphere in the school that Harry could not easily communicate with Sirius; to Kreacher for betraying Sirius; and Bellatrix for hitting him with the spell. However, if there is indeed one character on whom the blame truly rests, I would not choose any of the above.

I would choose VOLDEMORT.

I know, I know, its people's choices that really shape the events of the story, but you must admit that Voldemort is at the root of much of the discord and strife that has already caused so many deaths. :( I may just be getting too complicated for my own good here, but I'm just trying to make a point that Harry is not only to blame. Of course Voldemort is not the only one to blame either, but I'm just saying that if I HAD to pick just ONE character to blame, it would YOU KNOW WHO.:mad:

Edit: This is all just personal preference, but....

I just want to say that like many, Sirius was my favorite character as well. That is partially what turned Harry Potter from being just a really good series, to being one of my favorite series---the introduction of the whole Marauders era and Sirius Black's story in Book Three. That was the clincher-- I was in love with the Harry Potter books after that. I'm certainly not saying I don't like the books anymore......but at the same time I am sorely disappointed that the Marauder's story (especially concerning their Snape rivalry) didn't have more closure before Sirius died, and that dearest Padfoot didn't even get his name cleared.....:(

*Sobs again*

You would think that I would be over this by now, eh...?:o

[Marchwarden]

Originally posted by 1SmallHobbit

I know Harry didn't really know what he was doing, but I am so angered with him now! It wasn't his fault entirely, but if he had at least tried to practice his Occlumency! And he didn't! Look what happened!:mad: He just wouldn't listen to anyone. I'm so angered and annoyed with him!:mad::mad:


Heck, if he'd only unwrapped the two-way mirror and realized that he had a secure means of communication...

[swiftsnowmane]

I was really upset about the mirror too. But don't you think Harry must have been too? I'm sure he totally blames himself. I mean, there are so many "what if's" that come into play here. Like "what if Harry had practiced more Occlumency," "what if Snape had continued helping him," "what if Harry had listened to Hermione," "what if he had just looked in the mirror.":( However, there are so many what if's that have nothing to do with Harry either, so its not as easy (for ME at least) to totally blame Harry. I guess I just feel Harry's pain too much to stay angry at him.:(

[1SmallHobbit]

I'm sorry for coming across as a Harry-hater, I truly do not hate him, I was just in such a fury at the moment. I realize that it's not completely Harry's fault, or anyone one person's fault, I was just upset with Harry throughout the entire book for many different reasons; I was mad at him for not practising his Occlumency, and I was mad at him for putting the blame on Snape, because I love Snape, and I was mad at him for taking out his anger on Dumbledore and thinking that he could do it all himself...but this is not the Complain About Harry thread, this is the Rest In Peace, Sirius thread. I've absolutely adored Harry until this book, the poor child. Anyway, of course it's ultimately Voldemort's fault for Sirius' death...in so many ways (and I know I'll miss many of them)

1. Had he not been there to kill Lilly and James and attempt to kill Harry, the other wizards would not have blamed Sirius for their death and then...

2. They would have caught Wormtail right away and he would not have been able to kill all those people that Sirius got blamed for.

3. Had Voldemort never been alive the whole deal with the Ministry and Umbridge would never have happened.

4. Harry would never have such a great need to get ahold of Sirius because he wouldn't be in danger.

5. Harry would never have had the dream.

6. Bellatrix would not have been a death eater who was so determined to kill him.

7. Nothing would have happened if there had never been Voldemort...there would be no prophecy, no deaths, no Harry...depending on how you look at it fate-wise. Anyway, we certainly would never have HP books if there was no Voldemort and that would be incredibly depressing.

Okay, now that I have completely confused myself, I hope you all can kind of understand what I was saying.

[PhineasNigellus]

someone was talking about lupin's reaction to all his friends dying and saying he must be so devastated...yes BUT as far as he was concerned all of them were dead/evil on the night that Lily and James died and that was probably when he got his closure. In a way all his time with sirius was borrowes

[qleap]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this earlier... but I kind of had the feeling it was going to be either Mr Weasley (because of Mrs Weasley's fears) or Sirius... and that from an early chapter. When I read:

"The others' hushed voices were giving Harry an odd feeling of foreboding; it was as though they had just entered the house of a dying person"
(Chapetr 4 - Number twelve, Grimmauld Place)

I thought.... OH OH..... it must be an hint.... and who owns this house... Sirius? :(

So it wasn't a shock at all since I'd been expecting it with 50% chances since then, and when Mr Weasley survived the snake attack, I knew it for sure....

He wasn't my favourite character (if she killed Lupin I'd have screamed) but he was so important anyway.... but I think the no-body must mean something.

[katzpotter]

1SmallHobbit, I seemed like a Harry-hater when I had my second little conniption fit (alas, I have had several concerning OotP).

However, I then realized, as you did, that everything could be traced back to that evil doer of evil deeds, the oh-so-evil Moldie Voldie.

So yes, everything is its fault. And I refuse to give Moldie Voldie a gender. To me, Moldie Voldie is an IT.

[swiftsnowmane]

Awww, Onesie :hug: No need to apologize. Everyone gets worked up about something in Harry Potter, and it just further proves how good (or at least provocative) these books are.:)

I didn't notice any of the signs pointing toward Sirius (though they are so very clear now of course), since he was the one I least wanted to die (besides Hermione and Ron) I didn't even want to THINK it might be him.:(

[Bellatrix_Lestrange]

Originally posted by 1SmallHobbit

I can't take this sadness! Sirius was my favorite character by far. I miss him so much!! I cried so much, I know it seems stupid, but I just can't believe it! He was the best ever and now there is just nobody to take his place.:(:(

So anyway, I may just be in denial, but I will not and cannot admit that he is dead forever...he must come back at some point, I don't care how, just in some way we're going to hear from him again.

I know Harry didn't really know what he was doing, but I am so angered with him now! It wasn't his fault entirely, but if he had at least tried to practice his Occlumency! And he didn't! Look what happened!:mad: He just wouldn't listen to anyone. I'm so angered and annoyed with him!:mad::mad:

Sorry all diehard Harry fans, I've just been annoyed with him the entire book.


Harry at least has the excuse of being fifteen. That's a rough age for anyone, let alone orphans destined to battle evil archwizards. Sirius, on the other hand, was a grown man. Now, I miss him too, but this was not a hero devoid of flaws. In retrospect, it's clear that there were tragic elements in his character which predated his time in Azkaban. I'm mourning him too, but I chalk his death up to the machinations of Voldemort and the Achilles' heel of his own nature more than to the limitations of a boy who is little more than a child.

[Pippin]

Originally posted by Bellatrix_Lestrange
Now, I miss him too
...
I'm mourning him too Now that´s a piece of hypocrisy if I ever saw one!!! :D ;)


:wave: Welcome to the Muggle Informer, Bellatrix_Lestrange - scary name! :eek: Can we call you Bella for short or is that a privilege reserved exclusively to your boss? :D

[Rider of Rohan]

*rider delurks*

swiftsnowmane, I didn't see it coming either... I had heard that someone would die, but for some reason it never occured to me that it would be Sirius, I think because like you, I really didn't want it to be. I didn't figure it out until he yelled, "Come on, you can do better than that!" I'm not sure why it happened in this book particularly, but Sirius was starting to become one of my very favorite characters in the whole series, maybe because of his sarcastic humor or the way he truly cared about Harry. And poor Harry... he's now lost the only parent figure that he's ever known. :( I agree with Bellatrix - Sirius did have some elements of a tragic hero, mostly recklessness. Except that those traits are part of what made him so likeable.

I'm still holding out hope that JKR will surprise us in the next book by bringing him back, although she seemed fairly definite that he was dead. But then again, we never really got a satisfactory explaination about the veil... I'm in denial until I get some more concrete evidence.

~Rider

[Kristin]

Glad that you delurked, Rider! :)

Really, no one saw it coming. Some people guessed once they got into the book a little, but before OotP was released, very few people thought Sirius was at risk. I just find it fascinating! I've seen many speculations that were written before the book came out and they'd say stuff like "We know someone's going to die, but we don't know who. But it's sure not to be Harry, Ron, Hermione, Sirius or Dumbledore."

[KillerBunny]

I was almost positive it was going to be Sirius... because my dad saw an interview with J.K. Rowling saying that the person who died "was introduced in the third book" and "was someone who meant a lot to Harry". So I had basically narrowed it down to either Cho, Lupin or Sirius... obviously, I didn't care much about Cho. :devil: But after all that stuff about Sirius feeling cooped up in the house and being all angry and stuff, I was pretty darn sure it would be him. At least I had some time to get used to the idea. :(

I blame Harry too. :mad: WHY DIDN'T HE THINK OF THE MIRROR??? Gah!!! I mean, obviously, it wasn't TOTALLY his fault... but if he'd just used the bloody mirror, it wouldn't have happened. Aughhhh.

Oh well... I'm still holding out for the mirror to be of more use later on... I'm positive we're going to Sirius again, alive or not.

And I agree... poor Lupin.

:(

[Bellatrix_Lestrange]

Originally posted by Pippin
Now that´s a piece of hypocrisy if I ever saw one!!! :D ;)


:wave: Welcome to the Muggle Informer, Bellatrix_Lestrange - scary name! :eek: Can we call you Bella for short or is that a privilege reserved exclusively to your boss? :D

As long I get get to call you Pip...;)

[Lembas]

I had read ( wrongly ) on a non-HP website that Hermione was the one that was going to die, and I was really fearful of that, as she's favorite character. But, oddly enough, Sirius was my second favorite, and I was scared for him too. So I had mixed emotions. By the end of the book, I was so relieved for Hermione ( even though I knew her supposed death could be rumor ) , that I wasn't as affected by Sirius's death as I should have been. But the more I think about it, it does suck that he died! Come on, JKR! No more good guy deaths! Alas, I'm afraid that we haven't seen the last death of a hero yet.

[Pippin]

by Lembas
Alas, I'm afraid that we haven't seen the last death of a hero yet. I´m afraid we haven´t, too. If only JKR let her heroes die proper heroes' deaths! :( I mean I could have accepted Sirius's death much more easily if it had made sense for me, like Sirius dying in the process of saving Harry`s life or something (ok, that may be the cheesiest option of all, but you know what I mine - a noble sacrificial death rather than collateral damage).



I admit I felt the same slightly guilty relief that it wasn´t Ron or Hermione, too. :o




Bella - that´s fine with me. :D

[stridersghirl]

In the Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan series, someone falls through a stone archway and comes back despite everyone thinking he's dead even the people in the know, but he comes back.

There is hope yet that Sirius isnt dead !!!

ill be in denial till the next book comes out anyway

[Kristin]

I wish I could be in denial. I wish I could believe that JKR will bring Sirius back. But I just don't think it will happen.

And he was my favorite character!

I just came in here to cry some more. :( :( :(

[swiftsnowmane]

Awwww, Kristin. I'm still crying about it. :(:(:( Hugs for you. :hug:

I keep going in and out of denial. One minute I will be utterly resigned to it, the next I will think " no, there must be SOMETHING!!!"
I've been wearing a lot of black too, I noticed recently. I guess its in mourning for dearest Padfoot.... *Everyone rolls eyes @ Swifty-the-Obsessive-Cumpulsive-Sirius-Lover*

I'm so silly about it, I know:o . Yet Sirius had become such a part of the story, such an interesting part. It seems like such a sad, sad waste.....:(
If only I could have some better (literary) reason for his death in sight.:(

Its kind of ironic, cause ever since PoA Sirius has been my favorite. But now, after his death in OotP, I am OBSESSED. Its quite silly. But now I'm obsessed with seeing Sirius's star at night, obsessed with my friend's gorgeous black dog (whom I affectionately call 'Snuffles'), obsessed with drawing Sirius, obsessed with sexy long-black-haired men...(Oh wait, I've always been obsessed with those....;))

*Cackles maniacally*

But in all siriusness ;), I think Sirius's death has made me love him even more, despite all his impetuousness and faults. Rah. So there. :p

*huggles Snuffles*

*bursts into tears again*

[Pippin]

Awww, another big hug all around! :hug:

A few days ago I was in a concert with very beautiful and sad classical music, and for some reason I just teared up... :o


And it´s not even like Sirius has always been my favourite character. I actually used to be rather indifferent about him. But I feel a lot like Swifty says - Originally posted by swiftsnowmane

Its kind of ironic, cause ever since PoA Sirius has been my favorite. But now, after his death in OotP, I am OBSESSED.
....
I think Sirius's death has made me love him even more, despite all his impetuousness and faults. I think it´s sinking in (I´m not in denial any more) that Sirius's character and story is now complete. His death may be terribly unsatisfying but all the same his story is complete and we now have the whole picture. Which means you can look at his character now and be (almost, since this is JKR) sure that he´ll never disappoint us now, never change into something we wouldn´t have expected, never do something for us to hate him. That makes him easier to love. :)



And Swifty, I´ve been known to occasionally wear black because of a Harry Potter related obsession, too. :eek: :o ;)

[katzpotter]

Swifty, we feel your pain.

I'm the same way. One day, I write Lament for the Lost Marauder, and then, the next, I'm blatantly refusing to believe that he's dead, and then I go have a conniption fit and yell about how it's Harry's fault and-- Yesh. I wore black for a while too.

Also, like both Swifty and Pippin, I now am somewhat obsessed... I've found a website for people in denial, I've put up a commemorative page on my website, and found several fanlistings, too. I'd draw him, too, if it weren't for the fact that I can't draw males.

I also stick him into whatever fic I can, while, in the author's notes, proclaiming that I'm in denial, and proud, and... I need to stop, don't I? I also need to stop the Sirius puns... I manage three in five pages... and they're all the same one. Of course, I did stick in the Shirley pun from Airplane!, but that's beside the point, and now I'm rambling and-- I'll just be going now.

[Mirdan]

Originally posted by stridersghirl
There is hope yet that Sirius isnt dead !!!
well! people seemed to have forgotten that Sirius Black could very well have been Stubby Boardman's alias! or vice versa...

if Dumbledore could be a captive House Elf that wants to be freeeee, why not have Stubby Boardman as Sirius Black's stage name?!

think about it this way -- if Stubby Boardman really is Sirius Black, then it would explain the rock 'n roll lifestyle that Sirius seemed to have had. remember that flying motorbike? cool as a cucumber, eh? there doesn't seem to be anyone else in the wizarding world who owned an enchanted motorbike. and one could even imagine that Sirius/Stubby would be riding or flying it while wearing his leather jacket and all. with an invisibility booster, that is ;)

and one has to admit that the very name "Stubby Boardman" is definitely something a Marauder would think of as a good joke; it is the antithesis of Sirius Black -- "Stubby" probably refers to being short and thickset. the man we thought we knew as Sirius Black was tall, and probably a bit on the gaunt side due to his time in Azkaban. i doubt he was able to recover fast enough, with all the stress. can't really think of anything for "Boardman," only that it could be a play on the words "bored man." from the memory in the Pensieve we get the sense that Sirius Black gets bored easily. so it's possible that Sirius Black chose the alias Stubby Boardman to remove himself from the association of the Black family. and what better way to do that than to pretend to be a lead singer of the Hobgoblins?!

and notice that both Sirius Black and Stubby boardman have the same initials? it's possible that it's more than just a coincidence...

OR IS IT?

according to the new developments presented in The Quibbler, there is a more or less sufficient evidence that prove Sirius/Stubby's mysterious past life involved hanging out with groupies and performing to sold-out concerts. and this Stubby Boardman retired some fifteen years previous to the events that were unfolding in OotP. could it be that the reason for Stubby Boardman's "early retirement" was really because of the attack on the Potters in Godric's Hollow and then the subsequent manhunt for the traitor Pettigrew, not because of being struck in the ear by a projectile turnip? hmm...this needs further consideration IMHO. ;) :D


The Quibbler never lies! :p

[Rider of Rohan]

awww, Swifty, I'm the same way... I've found myself rereading that section of the book, painful as it is, to see if there's any indication that he's not as permanently dead as it seems. I'm still not sure that we've seen the last of that veil... and JKR has never yet left a loose thread untied. Being the science fiction nerd that I am, I've wondered if the veil isn't a sort of portal to another time or dimension... something that wouldn't be visible from this one. That theory doesn't really seem to fit in with the story thread, but I'm reaching for anything that will bring him back...

btw, I too am obsessed with sexy long-black-haired men... needless to say, I loved Pirates of the Caribbean. :cool:

LOL, Mirdan! That sounds almost plausible, the way you describe it! And we all know that JKR tends to introduce things that seem unimportant, only to have them turn up later in other books. We'll just have to wait and see...

~Rider

[Pippin]

Oh Mirdan - that´s brilliant. :LOL:


I think we were in need of a laugh, so thanks for that!



Another feeling that I´ve only got now, after reading OOTP and the story sinking in, is that Sirius actually HAS a character now. It´s hard to explain... in books 3 and 4, I really didn´t know what to make of him, and of his role in the story. I mean, I knew he was brave and cared for Harry and suffered a lot and everything, but he was so remote. He was never really "there", and we never just saw his daily life. We got that in OOTP, of course, and somehow "Sirius" has fallen into place for me. I think I now know who he is. Was. And I find that I like him. :)

[Fleurdelacour]

Originally posted by Pippin
We got that in OOTP, of course, and somehow "Sirius" has fallen into place for me. I think I now know who he is. Was. And I find that I like him. :)

Exept, now he's dead...

I just can't believe she killed him It's been over a month now, and I just can't believe it... I keep on thinking "Oh maybe we all misread it, and Hagrid really got crushed by that bloody Grawp."

But no... I will never forgive JKR for this.... :mad:

btw, that was hilarious Mirdan :)

[Kristin]

I just can't forgive Hagrid. I resent him for not being the one to die.

And I was really mad at Ron for gibbering about brains right after Sirius died. (I know it wasn't poor Ron's fault, but it was not a time for silliness.)

My poor Sirius! :( I wish JKR would at least give us stories about the Marauders so we could see him in happy times.

[Lanen]

If JKR brings Sirius back, I will never read another word she writes. (like she'd care...)

She said in an interview that she wrote Sirius' death that way because death in RL often happens just like that. No heroic ending, no famous last words (though if you think about it, in a black humour sense, his are in fact bloody hilarious - "You can do better than that" to the person who kills him?!).

Worst of all:
for the deceased, no time to prepare.
for those of us left behind - no chance to say goodbye. *THAT* is what really hurts, both in OotP and in RL. We need to have some feeling of 'closure', some sense of ending. JKR has taken quite a chance as a writer by allowing Sirius to die in a very 'real' way. I don't think she has pulled it off, myself, but that's by the by. I admire her courage for trying it. However, if she 'brings him back' it was all a cheat and I as a reader would be furious.

You DO all know that the phrase 'beyond the veil' means 'dead', don't you? (No, no, don't trout me, I was just asking, it's rather archaic and - ow!)

Just my 2 cents' worth...

[Lord Schaudt]

Ya know i would love JK so much more if she tunred into a female tolkien, finished off harrys schooling and then wrote a prehistory!

im pissed that sirius died, he was my fav charcter and he dies in such a non Sirius way, i mean you just know he would have rather taken Bella out with him

[Pippin]

Originally posted by Kristin
And I was really mad at Ron for gibbering about brains right after Sirius died. (I know it wasn't poor Ron's fault, but it was not a time for silliness.)
So true! The whole scene is silly, it annoys me so much - Neville, too, with his broken nose and "Dubbeldore!" and everything. So ridiculous. :rolleyes:

The scene just doesn´t set the stage for a heroic death. :(



But I must say, I don´t find Sirius's death so very un-Sirius at all. His last words to Bella are pretty much in character, and if you´ll forgive me for saying it, pretty cool. :o




by Lanen
You DO all know that the phrase 'beyond the veil' means 'dead', don't you? (No, no, don't trout me, I was just asking, it's rather archaic and - ow!)
Someone brought this up before. :) I've never seen this image used in the Christian tradition though, I think it must be a pagan thing. Very fit for wizards.

[katzpotter]

*glares* He IS alive, and if JK doesn't bring him back, then I'll TROUT HER!

Oh, I've been doodling, and doodled two very nice Siri pics. Will put them on my website come next Monday.

[Lord Schaudt]

She better not bring him back, it would ruin the whole "Learn to live with it Harry" idea that DD is trying to get out

[Torisen]

I was partly expecting it to be Sirius who died. I eliminated those characters I thought were too central (Ron and Hermionie) too integral to the overall plot arc (Dumbledore) characters too minor for the readers to care about (the Dursleys, most of the minor supporting characters) and those Harry wouldn’t shed a tear over (Snape, Malfoy) and that pretty much left me with Sirius – he was closer to Harry than McGonagall and Lupin (my two runners-up) and I had totally forgotten about the rest of the Weasley clan for some reason. (I haven’t picked up any of the first four books since before the first movie came out, so I’d forgotten about a lot of things. :trout: )

Ultimately, I actually like how the death was handled. It struck me as realistic. You know – so sudden and unexpected, like a car accident or an aneurysm. You feel as if you should just be able to reach out and pull the person back, like you still have a grace period, it hasn’t taken yet, and all you need is to turn back time just a little – you’re not asking for much – and you can fix this little mistake the world made.

On Sirius' tragic recklessness: I’m wondering how old Sirius was when he went to Azkaban. I realize there’s a lot of discussion about the ages of the adult characters, but if Sirius was young enough, it might help explain things about him. His time in prison would have robbed him of some much needed maturing time, so when he finally got out, emotionally he was still a 20-something (?) guy. Add to that the other deleterious effects of a stay in Azkaban, having lost friends and being wrongly accused before going in, and being a wanted criminal after getting out. No wonder he could be so immature at times compared to his contemporaries. He hadn’t fully grown up yet.

It’s an excuse, but I still wanted to slap him sometimes, though, for goading Harry on. :rolleyes:

P.S. I’ve mostly heard “beyond the veil” used in connection with mediums, séances and the like – and then mostly in Victorian-period costume dramas on PBS. :) (“Ve here assembled seek ze spirits beyond ze veil. Come to us, oh spirits!” etc.) Not specifically pagan, but not mainstream, either.

[Lanen]

Torisen, I think the expression comes from the Spiritualist tradition that began in Victorian England towards the end of the 19th century.

I have to admit, I find it fascinating to observe our reactions to Sirius' death. So many of the folk here have expressed the classical stages of genuine grief! Denial, anger, bargaining (maybe he'll come back, come on JKR, bring him back - it's like we're arguing with God!) and finally acceptance - though we're not all there yet! Amazing. Rowling has truly created a living world of the mind. Well done, that woman! :notworthy

[Lord Schaudt]

Look at the way he behaved in school, then look at they way he behaved afterwars, putting him in Azkaban DID rob him of his vdevlopment, he essentially didn't change from school to death.

[Fleurdelacour]

Originally posted by Lanen
I have to admit, I find it fascinating to observe our reactions to Sirius' death. So many of the folk here have expressed the classical stages of genuine grief! Denial, anger, bargaining (maybe he'll come back, come on JKR, bring him back - it's like we're arguing with God!) and finally acceptance - though we're not all there yet! Amazing. Rowling has truly created a living world of the mind. Well done, that woman! :notworthy

Do you think she realises what she's actually done, and how so many people (including myself...) are greiving as if he was real. I just can't get over it, I don't think I'll accept that he's dead, until I firmly believe he can't come back... Or that he is really lapping it up with James and Lily in somewhere better then the earth the departed...

[Rider of Rohan]

It is fascinating, isn't it? I sometimes wonder if JKR ever reads message boards like this one... don't know if there's any liability issues involved with that, but I bet she'd find it interesting to see how much people care about her characters.

Lanen, I do tend to agree with you - I'll miss Sirius as much as anyone else, of course, but right now I can't really see a way of bringing him back without it being a cheat (much as I hate to say it). And in the end, I thought it was one of the better death scenes I've ever read - the first emotion felt was shock, which is very typical. I really did get that sense of it not being quite real until several pages later, about when Harry and Dumbledore were talking in Dumbledore's office.

Despite all this, I still do want him back... :(

~Rider

[Pippin]

by Lanen

Rowling has truly created a living world of the mind. Well done, that woman! Nice to see you´ve changed your mind a bit about that, Lanen! :)



by Torisen
I’m wondering how old Sirius was when he went to Azkaban. I realize there’s a lot of discussion about the ages of the adult characters, but if Sirius was young enough, it might help explain things about him. His time in prison would have robbed him of some much needed maturing time, so when he finally got out, emotionally he was still a 20-something (?) guy. Add to that the other deleterious effects of a stay in Azkaban, having lost friends and being wrongly accused before going in, and being a wanted criminal after getting out. No wonder he could be so immature at times compared to his contemporaries. He hadn’t fully grown up yet. Excellent analysis, Torisen. :)


I do wonder - either Azkaban is not half as bad as we all think, or it´s really unhinged Sirius a lot. Otherwise I really can´t imagine how he could survive *twelve years* of that horror, come out basically still sane, and then go almost crazy being stuck in Grimmauld Place. I mean it must have been horrible there for him, but at least he was around his friends, and they were *doing* something to fight Voldemort... he must have been so much more desperate in Azkaban.

If it was his dreams of revenge that kept him alive and sane there, just how much more should they have kept him going after his breakout, when there was a realistic chance that he and the rest of the Order might get on top of the DE this time around?

What I´m trying to say is, why did he fall into depression so badly just as things were beginning to look up like they´ve never done in the fourteen years before that?





I have a question, btw - I was looking for a quote from an interview with JKR where she said that Sirius's death did serve a purpose, and that Harry (and we) would find out in time. Does anyone remember where she said that? It´s not in the Royal Albert Hall interview where I thought it was. Can anyone help? It would be much appreciated. :)

[Lembas]

Pippin, I've heard alot about this Royal Albert Hall interview. Is there any way I can obtain it? Is it in print or recorded? Sounds like a must! Lemme know, please.

[lizz]

by Pippin
I do wonder - either Azkaban is not half as bad as we all think, or it´s really unhinged Sirius a lot. Otherwise I really can´t imagine how he could survive *twelve years* of that horror, come out basically still sane, and then go almost crazy being stuck in Grimmauld Place. I mean it must have been horrible there for him, but at least he was around his friends, and they were *doing* something to fight Voldemort... he must have been so much more desperate in Azkaban.

If it was his dreams of revenge that kept him alive and sane there, just how much more should they have kept him going after his breakout, when there was a realistic chance that he and the rest of the Order might get on top of the DE this time around?


I dont think it worked like that Pippin. Just think what happens when only one or two Dementors are around.
Azakaban is driving the prisoners mad because near the Dementors they cant feel happiness and are forced to relieve the worst that happend to them. There isnt much room left for desperation, but extreme unhappiness and lethargy.

Hagrid was there only a short time and he said he cant stand think about it, so it must have been much worse for Sirius.
Maybe the worst that happened to Sirius was the murder of James and Lily, but on the other hand he knew he hadnt betrayed them. that wasnt a happy thought so the Dementors couldnd take it away. I dont think dreams of revenge kept him sane. Just like he said in PoA "Knowing I´m innocent kept me sane" He didnt break out for revenge but to protect harry. Of course he wanted his revenge too, but keeping harry safe was more important to him.


Out of Azkaban the effect of the Demenotrs stop. but of course being in azkaban must leave a trauma. it needs a lot to recover from months and years of bad memories. And sirius didnt really have the opportunity to get over the trauma. Being on the run was good and bad for him, good because he had something to do but bad because he was alone.



I think torisen is right about his emotional age. And he was a very emotional guy too, who often acted without thinking about the consequences of his actions.
sending Snape after a werewolf!?
suggesting Peter as secretkeeper (although I blame all of the marauders not to see what Peter really was. I´m sure it was his usual behaviour we saw in the Pensieve),
going for pettigrew alone, why couldnt he just have told Dumbledore, knowing Dumbledore he would have listend and the wizarding world was convinced sirius was bad only after he went for Peter. (as far as we know)
Attacking the fat lady and
sadly :( not listening to the warings about kreacher.



I dont think Azkaban unhinged Sirius. What drove him into depression was a mixture of the trauma he went through, of his own immaturity and of being shut up again. Sure he had frieds in the order but not being able to leave a place you hate is sort of a prison.



So being around frieds and fighting Voldemort didnt help much, because sirius didnt think he made a real contribution to the Order, except for the house. And for him personally thinks didnt look too good. I dont think he saw the bigger picture any more. Or rather he didnt see a role in the bigger picture for himself and that was very frustrating for him.



He hated Grimmauld Place and is must have been terrible to be there and he hadnt the temper to deal with that. I think hiding and watching over harry kept him sane in GoF. He could decide what to do and had to think about somebody else. He could feel more responsible for harry in GoF than in OoTP. There werent any fights about what was the best for harry.





I´ve read that interview too but sadly I cant remember where. But she defintitly said it was vital for the story he had to die. why do you think? Any ideas?



I can imagine probably because Harry needs to learn to listen to other people or rather judge his informations an impressions, to not become too sure of himself? IF he had listend to Hermione, pracised Occlumency, Sirius wouldnt have died. What else could be the reason except some unknown importance of the veil?

[Lanen]

Originally posted by Pippin
I really can´t imagine how he could survive *twelve years* of that horror, come out basically still sane, and then go almost crazy being stuck in Grimmauld Place.

Pippin, I think you're mostly there. I think after surviving 12 years of the horrors of Azkaban, Sirius escaped and was free - after a fashion - even living in hiding while trying to get at Peter, his life was in his own hands again. Even while hiding out in the cave above Hogsmeade village, he was in control of his own destiny.

Then he is restored to good odour with the Order of the Phoenix, he gets to talk with his wizarding pals again, and what happens? He's in prison again - his hated family home, complete with horrible painting of his mother that reminds him of all that he despised about his parents, Kreacher the ever-obnoxious, and *he can't get out*. After long imprisonment, freedom must have been intoxicating, because he'd know what it was like NOT to be free. Having that taken from him - I think Rowling has set that up very well indeed, and it's absolutely psychologically sound that he should chafe horribly and eventually crack.

that's my take on it, anyhoo...

[RosieLass]

I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I have a couple thoughts about Sirius.

I haven't finished the book yet, but I made a point to find out who died before I started, because that's the kind of nasty surprise I don't like to stumble on. I need to know these things ahead of time. :)

But my thoughts are:

1) Is he really dead? Is there a chance that he's simply gone undercover, to surface again later?

2) He was such an unsympathetic character in this book (kind of a jerk, really) that I'm having a hard time summoning up much sadness over his death.

It's perfectly understandable, of course. He spent 12 years in one of the most horrifying situations anyone could ever conceive. So it's no wonder he's a little warped. But his treatment of Kreacher was unreasonable, no matter how foul a creature the elf was. And his behavior at times was no more mature and grown-up than Harry and the other children.

[Pippin]

by Lembas

I've heard alot about this Royal Albert Hall interview. Is there any way I can obtain it? Is it in print or recorded? Sounds like a must! Lemme know, please. It´s online at Mugglenet, here´s the link (I suppose Mugglenet is safe to link to?):

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkr-royalalbert.shtml



But it doesn´t have the quote about the purpose of Sirius’s death that I was looking for…. help, anyone? :)





Lizz, I disagree with you on the notion that Dementors don´t drive you into despair and depression – I think that´s exactly what they do.

However, the reason why Sirius didn´t go mad in Azkaban was probably because he still saw a purpose in his life – as you said, protecting Harry, as well as taking his revenge on Wormtail once he knew he was still alive (I think there were both motivations).


I agree with this, though:

sirius didnt really have the opportunity to get over the trauma. Being on the run was good and bad for him, good because he had something to do but bad because he was alone. Mind you, he must have spent weeks and weeks in his lonely hide outs, too, thinking over all that had happened, and all that was still going to happen – but it´s quite likely that the real trauma only caught up with him at the beginning of OotP, with Wormtail gone beyond his reach for the moment and others taking care of Harry for him. That´s when he must have realised that whole purpose of his breakout had been taken away from him.


Like you say, Lizz: I dont think he saw the bigger picture any more. Or rather he didnt see a role in the bigger picture for himself and that was very frustrating for him.



by Lanen

even living in hiding while trying to get at Peter, his life was in his own hands again. Even while hiding out in the cave above Hogsmeade village, he was in control of his own destiny.
…
After long imprisonment, freedom must have been intoxicating, because he'd know what it was like NOT to be free. Having that taken from him - I think Rowling has set that up very well indeed, and it's absolutely psychologically sound that he should chafe horribly and eventually crack. Very well put, Lanen! I suppose I was wrong saying that staying in Grimmauld Place drove Sirius crazy, because it didn´t. It made him depressed, but he never really “cracks”, does he? He just throws caution to the winds in the end when he joins the others on their rescue mission to the Ministry. And that´s not a cracked idea, but very understandable.

[lizz]

byPippin
Lizz, I disagree with you on the notion that Dementors don´t drive you into despair and depression I think that´s exactly what they do.

I didnt mean it like that. :eek: Sorry if I was unclear, I was trying to say not "Just" depression but something worse. I´d call sirius behaviour at Grimmauld place depressed and the Dementors are far worse.







by Rosie Lass
But his treatment of Kreacher was unreasonable, no matter how foul a creature the elf was.

Unfortunatly it was. that was a point where he really shpuld have seen the bigger picture. Or have paid more attention. Harry noticed Kreacher punished himself and wondered, Sirius obviously didnt.

by RosieLass
And his behavior at times was no more mature and grown-up than Harry and the other children.

Even less mature sometimes I think.
He did behave really childish for example his reaction when H&H&R told him not to come to Hogsmeade.

I love the way Lupin is always watching to keep him under control.

[Lembas]

Thank you so much Pippin, for the link! I shall read that at my earliest opportunity, as the wife is home today and I do believe we are going to do some "rat killing" or errand running. :D Anyway, thanks a lot. Happy, happy, joy, joy! :cool:

[Telchar II]

I thought Sirius's own explanation for his survival, and his mental health, was that he was a dog much of the time.

RosieLass, I have a theory that may help you with your question #1. (My theory drove everyone else nuts, IIRC.) If I can find the link, I'll edit the link in.

Here you are: my "major speculation (http://www.muggleinformer.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3398&perpage=30&pagenumber=7)" -- enjoy! :D

But only after you've finished the book, as I mention a lot of detail.

[Bellatrix_Lestrange]

Originally posted by Telchar II
I thought Sirius's own explanation for his survival, and his mental health, was that he was a dog much of the time.

RosieLass, I have a theory that may help you with your question #1. (My theory drove everyone else nuts, IIRC.) If I can find the link, I'll edit the link in.

Here you are: my "major speculation (http://www.muggleinformer.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3398&perpage=30&pagenumber=7)" -- enjoy! :D

But only after you've finished the book, as I mention a lot of detail.

That, and the knowledge that he was innocent. It wasn't a happy thought, so it couldn't be taken from him, but it gave him something to focus on besides misery.

[Melpomene]

I found this poem, and thought I'd share it:

"Ascension"
- by Colleen Hitchcock


And if I go, While you're still here

Know that I live on,

Vibrating to a different measure

Behind a thin veil you cannot see through.

You will not see me,

So you must have faith.

I wait for the time when we can soar together again,

Both aware of each other.

Until then, live your life to the fullest.

And when you need me,

Whisper my name in your heart.

I will be there.

[Patty Lewis]

Well, this is my first post here since, well, a very long time. I didn't have the internet at first but now I do. So, HI EVERYONE!

Ever since I read the HP series I've always like everyone's favorite criminal. -laugh- My favorite book is book three because of Sirius and Lupin...I actually cried during that book....but I cried even more when OoTP came along and he died...-sob-
But, oh well. Things must go on!!

I am absolutley going insane waiting for June 4th!!! Its driving me insane...but that's what message boards are for. YAY!!!! -grin-

[Kristin]

:wave: Glad to have you here!

I didn't use to cry in PoA... but now I do! :(

On another site I frequent, somebody has an avatar that says:

Missing:
One Mum
One Dad
One Godfather
If found, please return to Harry Potter

*sniff*

[Fleurdelacour]

Aww that's so jear jerckingly sad Kristin :( I'm going to put that in my sig...

Welcome Patty :D

[Flockman The Wise]

Let me clear something up for all of you...

Sirius Black is dead. Reasons:

1) Lupin's face as he told Harry that Sirius was dead. Lupin obviously knows what is beyond that veil. Most likely it is a place for dead, non-ghost, witches and wizards.

2) This one is a dead give away: Rowling cried. If she knew she could resurrect him she wouldn't have, but she did. She killed Sirius Black.

3) Wizard society NEVER would have excepted the story that Sirius was innocent and Peter Pettigrew was the true murderer. No matter what anyone said, they'd never be convinced and claim that they "saw it with their own eyes" blah blah.

4) You are all denying it. The obvious and most often occuring reaction to a loss of something or someone is denial. You people need to face up to that fact that he's dead and won't be comming back.

NOTE: I do not believe Harry will be unable to communicate with Sirius. The mirror Harry smashed will allow him to talk to Sirius in book 6 or 7. If not the mirror, then another unknown form of communication will be revealed however it will not be perminant. In other words it won't allow Sirius to come back to life or anything like that.

Sirius Black is dead. Believe it.

[SiriuslyInLove]

i could kill kreacher!:mad:

Sirius was my fave character, but i hold true to my beliefs no matter how many ppl tell me he's dead, he will find some way tp comunicate with Harry. I just believe he will!

My Avatar would be Sirius if i could get one, andi have amde a few of my own form pics ive found of Gary Oldman as him.

SIRIUS IS ALIVE IN MY HEART! and always will be!

*starts crying*:(

oh yes-that was a very good point a/b Remus-being dpressed and all about all his closests friends being gone. :( thast what i thought also.

too bad Sirius cant become a ghost... :(

[Kristin]

Originally posted by Flockman The Wise
2) This one is a dead give away: Rowling cried. If she knew she could resurrect him she wouldn't have, but she did. She killed Sirius Black.

That I think is the big key (for me, at least). If it were a joke or something, it wouldn't be so upsetting to write.

Plus, she's not one to trivialize death by bringing characters back. Death isn't as powerful and meaningful if there's hope of coming back to life.


Welcome, Flockman! :wave:

[Flockman The Wise]

Originally posted by Kristin
Plus, she's not one to trivialize death by bringing characters back. Death isn't as powerful and meaningful if there's hope of coming back to life.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[SiriuslyInLove]

Im still sticking.... *whistles* hmm....Im just hoping HArry finds some way to contact him again thats all...

[Flockman The Wise]

Originally posted by SiriuslyInLove
Im still sticking.... *whistles* hmm....Im just hoping HArry finds some way to contact him again thats all...

There is no doubt in my mind that Sirius will be in future books. However, he will not be brought back to life. I'm interested to see how Harry or others will contact him.

[SiriuslyInLove]

Originally posted by Flockman The Wise
There is no doubt in my mind that Sirius will be in future books. However, he will not be brought back to life. I'm interested to see how Harry or others will contact him.

good point...im wondering how they will too.....;)

[Flockman The Wise]

Originally posted by SiriuslyInLove
good point...im wondering how they will too.....;)

<.<

>.>

*points* Stalker!! *runs*

[SiriuslyInLove]

Originally posted by Flockman The Wise
<.<

>.>

*points* Stalker!! *runs*
who,me??

[Flockman The Wise]

Originally posted by SiriuslyInLove
who,me??

No, the guy behind you.

[Kristin]

*wrestles the thread back on topic*

I'm not sure whether Sirius will appear in book 6 or 7. But his death definitely has to be dealt with. So in that sense the character won't drop out of the books. I'm just really interested to see where it goes.

I miss Sirius. :(

[Flockman The Wise]

I wasn't surprised to see him go. It fits. I don't miss him either, but that's because I know he'll be in the next 2 books. He just won't be alive any more.

[SiriuslyInLove]

I hope he is! Im started a new Thread in the Leaky Cauldron tho! :)

[Telchar II]

Originally posted by Kristin
Plus, she's not one to trivialize death by bringing characters back. Death isn't as powerful and meaningful if there's hope of coming back to life.
Yes and no.

First of all, she has trivialized death in several ways. The ghosts, the Mirror of Erised (as if we could summon visions of living dead!), the priori incantatem effect in the graveyard (corpses usually do _not_ ask to be taken back to school).

Flockman may be quite right to say that Sirius will reappear. But why wouldn't speaking to Sirius -- interacting with the dead Sirius -- also be a trivialization of death? What Flockman predicts will happen is the very thing Kristin and he dislike. Death isn't as powerful and meaningful when we can talk to dead people, is it?

[Flockman The Wise]

Originally posted by Telchar II
Yes and no.

First of all, she has trivialized death in several ways. The ghosts, the Mirror of Erised (as if we could summon visions of living dead!), the priori incantatem effect in the graveyard (corpses usually do _not_ ask to be taken back to school).

Flockman may be quite right to say that Sirius will reappear. But why wouldn't speaking to Sirius -- interacting with the dead Sirius -- also be a trivialization of death? What Flockman predicts will happen is the very thing Kristin and he dislike. Death isn't as powerful and meaningful when we can talk to dead people, is it?

It's a lot worse when you kill someone and bring them back to life.

[MarySueMalfoy]

I hope we don't see too much of an extrapolation from what can happen in real life.

We can discover old letters, keepsakes, diaries, home-movies, photos and such which belonged to lost loved ones. Wizards have Pensieves and moving photos and such, but it's not much more than a change of technology. Actually communing with Sirius' spirit would come much closer to trivializing death, but even the Priori Incantatem phantasms were little more than a fleeting, tantalizing glimpse. JKR seems to have settled on her boundaries.

[SiriuslyInLove]

good point... :)

[swiftsnowmane]

Well I can certainly see how bringing him back would trivialize death (if he is indeed dead right now). However, part of me wants him to be alive SO badly that I honestly don't care if it trivializes something to bring him back! :eek: (Don't worry, I know it won't happen :( )

Wow, its been months and I'm STILL not *over* his death....:o

:(

[swiftsnowmane]

Bringing back this thread now.....not to mourn Sirius, but to just discuss anything about good ol' Padfoot in general. :)

Though I do admit that the initial pain of loss has lessened with time, I still truly miss him as thought he were a real person. In the 6th book I kept looking for signs of him. Not signs that he was still alive, just signs to remember him by. I loved when Harry found the record of student crimes committed by the Marauders. ;)

Edit: Oops....mods, can we somehow change the title of the thread to something about Sirius Black? Or should I just start a new thread?

[lizz]

I was really surprised how she handled his story. Cleared, had a will, left everything to Harry.
Not that I dont want his name cleared, but I have to admit I was surprised by it.
I´m not really surprised he had a will and left everything to Harry.
And it was a bit short.I would have liked to hear more about him. And the mirrors, but that will be next time *sigh*

[swiftsnowmane]

I do want to know more about Sirius, even now.....he had so much more he could have done. *sigh*

But in the meantime, does anyone know where I can find some quality Sirius Black fan art? I have seen tons of nice renditions already, but its always great to find more. Maybe I should just cave and draw one myself for once, since none of the pics ever match my imagination exactly....