The Prophecy – Fate vs. Choice (contains OotP SPOILERS!!!)

[Pippin]

After getting over the first shock and realising that the first time around, I read the Prophecy completely wrong (as in, if Voldemort dies so does Harry – if Harry kills him it will at the expense of his own life :eek: ), this whole Prophecy business still irks me. Anyone feel the same?


Maybe it´s just me being in denial of the fact that Prof. Trelawny, whom I´ve always heartily disliked, should have such an important part to play in the end – but there´s more to it. So what is it that governs the fate of the Wizarding World – Fate or Choice?



The introduction of the Prophecy – indeed of prophecies as such – raises more questions than it answers.



1. Is the Prophecy the “weapon” the Order are trying to keep Voldemort from getting his hands on?


The guards placed in front of the Department of Mysteries seem to prove it. But why is it a weapon?

Obviously Voldemort doesn´t know what it says, he´s so desperately trying to steal it to find out. Is he hoping that it might predict his total victory, so noone dares to resist him any longer? Does Voldemort believe in prophecies? Does he really believe in anything but himself?


And, if the Order were so desperate to keep him away from it, why didn´t they just enter the Department and destroy it? It would forever be kept safe in Dumbledore´s memory anyway. Or couldn´t they get into the room where it was stored? They manage quite easily in the final battle scene.



2. The Prophecy itself: What´s so special about it?


OK, so the Wizarding World ain´t big enough for both Harry and Voldemort but we´ve been kind of guessing that all along, haven´t we?

What it does tell us is why Voldemort was after the Potters – he was after Harry most of all, the parents just got in the way. Which, I must say, disappoints me a little, I wanted a better reason for them to die (like I want a better reason for Sirius to die).


But then, we know that the Prophecy could as well have referred to Neville. Can we be sure it didn´t? Voldemort obviously tried Harry first and the result seemed to prove him right - but then, was it Harry being the Chosen One that defeated Voldemort back then, or was it his parents giving his life for him? In other words, was it Fate or was it Harry´s parents` Choice?



3. Which leads me to the big question behind the Prophecy business: What is it that the future of the Wizarding World hangs on? Is it all fate and predetermination, or is it the choices of the people in whose hands it is laid? Or both?


Frankly, I dislike the predetermination idea. I know it appears frequently in fantasy literature but I liked the fact that it didn´t appear in the HP series so far. On the contrary – apart from the fact that Dumbledore himself doesn’t seem to have a very high opinion of Divination, he keeps telling Harry (and therefore us) how it is “our choices, far more than our abilities”, that make us who we are, and how we must try to learn to make “the choice between what is right and what is easy”. Dumbledore is a great advocated of the principle of Freedom of Choice – and all that only to find out in the end that Harry is another of those “Chosen Ones” and that he will defeat Voldemort because it´s his Destiny, not because it´s his choice? Does anyone else feel slightly cheated?



I can see a sort of a way out of this. Maybe Harry wasn´t always destined to be the Chosen One of the Prophecy. Maybe he only became it the moment his parents made the choice to die for him and thus mark him as special, as The Boy Who Lived (because that´s what´s special about him, the fact that he defeated Voldemort is only the effect of that). Maybe, if Voldemort had gone for Neville first and Neville´s parents had done the same for their son, Neville would have been marked as special and therefore as the Chosen One the Prophecy speaks about. Imagine NONE of the parents had done it – would Trelawny´s prediction then have passed as just another ridiculous idea of a slightly disturbed mind? Or DID one of the parents have to do what they did?



My head hurts. Is anyone else irritated by all these implications?
What do you all think?

[Elwen]

I was irritated by the prophecy... certainly....

But then, how much does it really predetermine at all? Don't we know that in the end Harry and Voldemort will fight it out - unless one of the two dies in some other way?

The odd thing is that Harry so far wasn't determined to do this at all... and I am not sure whether he is ready to go for Voldemort now that he knows what is going on.

What is Dumbledore's stance on all this? Will he try to kill V to protect Harry? Will he try to set up the fight between V and Harry (I hope not - this would be such a David Eddings stunt!!).
I'd hate the idea of complete predetermination.
I'd say the prophecy could work like some Greek oracles: there are many ways of interpreting it and that leaves you a lot of freedom of action (and a lot of freedom of getting it wrong!).


The weird thing is that V is bent on killing Harry - so he is most eager to carry out the prophecy *without* knowing what the prophecy is. Isn't that odd?


Concerning Neville and Harry: I have the feeling that V chose Harry in the end.... I would guess that he went for the Potters because Neville's parents were out of action and Neville would be an easy target? Of course we don't know the chronology of all these of all these events.

The odd thing is that the prophecy wouold have been fulfilled (without V knowing exact details) if he had been able to kill Harry! So was it Lily's courage who made the prophecy turn out to be this route to a final show-down?

Of course, we still don't know whether Neville isn't still part of the game. And are they the onloy two? Someone wondered about Draco - or, for that matter, any other child in Harry's year! There must be a few more with birthdays around that time.




This could still be complicated.





Concerning the weapon... I just reread that reference to that in the beginning. This is far too ambiguous to allow us to tell. Couldn't the weapon be anything in that locked part of the Ministry? What if the arch with the veil is the weapon?? It must be *very* significant in some way!!! What of all those time manipulating devices?

Given that V wants to avoid death there might be some useful things for him there....



Hmmmmmmmmmm....

Sorry for rambling.

Elwen

[Marchwarden]

I generally dislike prophecies for the same reasons Elwen and Pippen have already cited. This time, I'm going to go against the flow of public opinion; I think that this one was well done. Rather than declare that a certain result is Fated to occur, it tells the characters that there will be a necessary Choice. It also tells Harry that he'll have the power to defeat the Dark Lord, but it doesn't say what that power will be or how to obtain it. It offers hope, but no instruction in that regard.

I'd feel creepy about a prophecy telling me how my life would turn out, but I'd appreciate one telling me which future decisions would prove crucial.

As Elwen mentioned, the prophecy tells readers far less than it tells Harry; after all, we know we're reading a series of novels, and we expect the main protagonist to face off against the main villain. Now Harry is as informed as we are.

[Pippin]

Quoting myself, And, if the Order were so desperate to keep Voldemort away from the Prophecy, why didn´t they just enter the Department and destroy it? I think I can answer that now – it says that whoever tries to touch a prophecy that doesn´t concern him, he´ll go mad. My theory is that this happened to the poor Ministry employee (I forget his name) who was put on the closed ward at St. Mungo´s and then murdered by the evil plant.

But Harry could pick it up with no trouble. Doesn´t that prove that Harry is the boy mentioned in the Prophecy, and NOT Neville?



Looking more closely at the Prophecy itself:
by Marchwarden
Rather than declare that a certain result is Fated to occur, it tells the characters that there will be a necessary Choice. It also tells Harry that he'll have the power to defeat the Dark Lord, but it doesn't say what that power will be or how to obtain it. It offers hope, but no instruction in that regard. Thanks for giving the discussion a more positive turn!
But the Prophecy itself says clearly that one of the boys is “the one with the powers to defeat the Dark Lord”, and that implies he´s the *only* one with those powers.

I can´t see how there´s any Choice left in this.

It says Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort, so unless we can think up a solution that gives the story a happy ending *without* killing Voldemort, this seems to be Fated. All the others might just as well stage the final show down now and sit on the sidelines and watch. :rolleyes:




Then, the Dark Lord would “mark him as his equal” – that apparently happened to Harry (and not Neville). by Elwen
course, we still don't know whether Neville isn't still part of the game. And are they the only two? Someone wondered about Draco - or, for that matter, any other child in Harry's year! Any child in the year who´s parents escaped Voldemort three times? Not likely there are many. Certainly not Draco.

I want to know about Neville, though. OK, so if it´s that clear that Harry is the person the Prophecy speaks about, what´s so special about finding out about Neville now? Why give the Prophecy this additional twist, this ambiguity, if we already know it has no significance?



He will “have powers that the Dark Lord knows not” – that might be the ancient magic protecting him (which only started working when Lily died, of course, which was *after* the Prophecy was made). by Elwen
The odd thing is that the prophecy would have been fulfilled (without V knowing exact details) if he had been able to kill Harry! So was it Lily's courage who made the prophecy turn out to be this route to a final show-down? That´s how I read it.

Gosh, it really diminishes everyone´s choices, particularly the heroic choice of Harry´s parents to sacrifice their lives. :rolleyes:



by Elwen
The odd thing is that Harry so far wasn't determined to do this at all... How do we know? The trouble once you introduce prophecies is, how can anyone be sure that what´s happening is still happening because people choose to make it happen?


and I am not sure whether he is ready to go for Voldemort now that he knows what is going on. But he can´t possibly back out of this now. With that load of responsibility on his shoulders!


I'd say the prophecy could work like some Greek oracles: there are many ways of interpreting it and that leaves you a lot of freedom of action (and a lot of freedom of getting it wrong!). Tell us more about that, Elwen – don´t the Greek prophecies always come true *because* people try to *prevent* them coming true?

Maybe the very fact that the Prophecy said this or that and Harry doesn´t like his life being controlled by prophecies may help him to end the fight in some other way. I mean, the Prophecy could actually result in Harry fulfilling it in the course of trying to prove it untrue (or not binding or whatever).


Will Dumbledore try to kill V to protect Harry? I think part of Dumbledore´s grief and sadness in the last chapter (ok, second last or something) stems from him knowing that he can´t do Harry´s job, powerful though he may be. It fits in with Voldemort´s “so you´re not trying to kill me?” in their duel in the Ministry. But then, Dumbledore says he´s not trying to kill Voldemort because death would not be the worst thing that could happen to him.

Well, what then is???



Back to the "weapon" for a second:

Couldn't the weapon be anything in that locked part of the Ministry? What if the arch with the veil is the weapon?? It must be *very* significant in some way!!! What of all those time manipulating devices? Hm. What a *coincidence* then that the Prophecy should be just in the room next to what they were really guarding… but you could be right. The prophecy could be a fantastic red herring, and maybe the “weapon” is the Veil?

I´m afraid we have no chance to find out about that before we get to hear more about the Veil. At least Lupin and Dumbledore don´t seem to be surprised to see it, and seem to have quite a good grasp of what it does and what it means when someone falls through it. It doesn´t look like they see or hear of it for the first time.




Jumbled thoughts again, sorry.

But I really want to know just how important these Prophecies are in the Wizarding World. There must be thousands of them stored in the Department of Mysteries. This could mean that they play a big part in the Wizarding World, that they´re taken rather seriously and that a lot of what goes on is governed by them (or at least by people´s belief in them!).


I still feel cheated. I feel like JKR really jumped this at us, with no warning in books 1-4, to get out of a lot of interesting problems, such as *why exactly* Harry is the only one that can defeat Voldemort.

Because it´s his destiny, yeah right, thank you. Very satisfying. :rolleyes:



To try and end on a more positive note, one thing I could accept: if Harry was destined to defeat Voldemort because he´s the Heir of Gryffindor, just like Voldemort is the Heir of Slytherin. Ever since CoS I´ve wanted to know more about this, whether it was a coincidence that the place where the Potters lives was called “Godric´s Hollow”. It would be great to see the final showdown not only as a conclusion to the war against Voldemort, but also as a conclusion to the old story of the rivalry between Slytherin and Gryffindor. Or why does JKR keep referring back to this story?

I do mind prophecies that jump at you from out of the blue, but I wouldn´t mind a historical connection like this influencing the course of events in the present and the future. That´s the kind of "prophecy" that gives me goosebumps, in a good way. :)

[Elwen]

Hah! The long expected answers :)

Right here a few of my thoughts in response...


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by Elwen
The odd thing is that the prophecy would have been fulfilled (without V knowing exact details) if he had been able to kill Harry! So was it Lily's courage who made the prophecy turn out to be this route to a final show-down?
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That´s how I read it.

Gosh, it really diminishes everyone´s choices, particularly the heroic choice of Harry´s parents to sacrifice their lives.


I don't think so.

Whatever we think about Harry's diminished choice his parents DID have a choice (not knowing the prophecy they had a free choice). V could have fulfilled the prophecy there and then, without much trouble - but Harry's mother made sure that Harry could actually grow up and acquire some powers of his own to become a worthy enemy of Voldemort.

That was free choice.

It is of course a rough choice between dying before V kills your son or dying after he does so - but it is a choice nonetheless, and as it should be with free choice it was taken without a nknowledge of the consequences.

Not diminished at all, IMHO.




quote:
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by Elwen
The odd thing is that Harry so far wasn't determined to do this at all...
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How do we know? The trouble once you introduce prophecies is, how can anyone be sure that what´s happening is still happening because people choose to make it happen?



Well, Harry has become aware that Voldemort will continue to be his problem unless something is done about him. But I have the feeling that his shock about the prophecy shows that he had not made it clear to himself what we have guessed all along - that he might have to fight V to the death - not defending himself against V's attempt to kill him, as he has already done - but he himself fighting V with the intention to kill Voldemort, because he is the person who has to do so.


Harry finds this disturbing and I find that is at least a good reaction to this. I was very moved by this 'I am destined to be a murderer' thing.

This makes me feel that JKR is aware of what she is doing here.... (see Dumbledore's statement to V about death... see below).



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and I am not sure whether he is ready to go for Voldemort now that he knows what is going on.
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But he can´t possibly back out of this now. With that load of responsibility on his shoulders!



No he can't - or perhaps he can?
At the meoment he certainly doesn't think he can. But this isn't what I meant!

Harry now knows (thinks?) that he is doomed to kill V or be killed himself. But is he ready for it? Not yet.

Do I want him to be ready for it? In terms of skills, yes, in terms of mindset, no.
In a way Harry would have to become like the other side in order to be able to do this - he'd have to learn how to hate because it might have to be murder in cold blood.

That is why I find it so significant that this is Harry's worst worry....

(in a paraphrase from Matrix Reloaded) 'because it shows that he is still human'.


I think this is the worst thing of this prophecy: as it stands now Harry seems doomed to have to work on himself to become very powerful, especially in dark magic, and not just in Defence against the Dark ages, and to become ready to kill.

Scary. But I am not sure that it is so.... because....


quote:
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I'd say the prophecy could work like some Greek oracles: there are many ways of interpreting it and that leaves you a lot of freedom of action (and a lot of freedom of getting it wrong!).
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Tell us more about that, Elwen – don´t the Greek prophecies always come true *because* people try to *prevent* them coming true?




No. not necessarily.
The scenario you have in mind is Oedipus' story. This is just one scenario.


The typical scenario are various Delphic oracles - they tend to have various meanings and you have to pick the right one.

Two examples to give you an idea:

1) Delphi to Kroisos of Lydia
- Kroisos was threatened by the Persians pushing itno Asia Minor. He considered attacking them and asked Apollo about it. Delphi answered 'if you attack a great empire will perish'

Kroisos attacked and his empire perished. On complaint to Delphi he was reminded of the fact that his own empire might not have been as big as the Persian empire, but it had been pretty great itself.


2) Delphi to Athens
This was when the Persians were about to attack Greece a second time (480 BC, this is historical). Delphi was clearly convinced that the Persians would win and initially told the AThenians to give in. But the AThenian leader Themistokles asked for a second oracle and got a pretty dark prophecy, with the added advice to trust 'in the wooden walls'.

(I think that Delphi wasn't going to be drawn and left it up to the AThenians to interpret it).


Some AThenians decided that these were the (partly wooden) defences on the Acropolis, so some stayed there to defend the sanctuaries. Most AThenians followed Themistocles in interpreting 'wooden walls' as Athens' new fleet... so the city was evacuated. The Persians burned the city, they also took the Acropolis. But the Athenians beat the Persians in the sea battle at Salamis and ultimately the war against the Persians was won.



Get my drift? We have to scrutinize this prophecy. I am not convinced that we have grasped all the possible meanings (and we aren't meant to, either).


Maybe the very fact that the Prophecy said this or that and Harry doesn´t like his life being controlled by prophecies may help him to end the fight in some other way. I mean, the Prophecy could actually result in Harry fulfilling it in the course of trying to prove it untrue (or not binding or whatever).


This could be the fact as well. ANd I don't think that Dumbledore has had his last say in this. We don't know enough about prophecies yet. Are they always true?

If they are Dumbledore might still try to turn it into an unexpected route...


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Will Dumbledore try to kill V to protect Harry?
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I think part of Dumbledore´s grief and sadness in the last chapter ... stems from him knowing that he can´t do Harry´s job, powerful though he may be. It fits in with Voldemort´s “so you´re not trying to kill me?” in their duel in the Ministry. But then, Dumbledore says he´s not trying to kill Voldemort because death would not be the worst thing that could happen to him.

Well, what then is???


Now that, surely, must be significant!
What is worse than death? Let us assume it isn't straightforward (like 'life in Azkaban')...

What if that arch with the veil has to do with it! What if it isn't a route to Death but a route to somewhere else? Some sort of limbo? I don't want that for Sirius, but there must be some significance to this....


Anyway - I have to read the prophecy again (I don't have the book here) and see whether there is a way of interpreting it differently?

What if V isn't killed at all 8and if that is actually the most desirable outcome)?

What if V, threatened by whatever it is that D is referring to, kills himself, recognising that D was right?



Harry has done a lot of growing up in book 5 - the next step will have to be his recognition that he has to allow himself a choice. That nothing can bully him into this destiny - prophecy or no!

There are still ways out - and I have the feeling that JKR is ostensibly narrowing her options to present us with an option that is utterly surprising. If it is so we won't find out before book 7 (surely, book 7 will be about Harry wrestling with his 'fate' 'destiny').


Of course I am just guessing.


Back to the "weapon" for a second:


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Couldn't the weapon be anything in that locked part of the Ministry? ...
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Hm. What a *coincidence* then that the Prophecy should be just in the room next to what they were really guarding… but you could be right. The prophecy could be a fantastic red herring, and maybe the “weapon” is the Veil?


Not a coincidence - since all these highly mystifying, dangerous things are in that department. - but a practical device for the author ;)

And the weapon could also be something else in that room. We have already seen the function of that time turning device in PoA. Fiddling with time might yet again become crucial....

but there are so many weird things there - we simply don't know about it and we don't know how much could be there.

JKR has given herself a joker in the game by introducing the department of mysteries! She says she had to include various things so people didn't accuse her of just mentioning it out of the blue later on.... that department is full of things that might be such clues...





Well... more ramblings from me :D


Elwen

[swiftsnowmane]

Wow, all really good thoughts, Elwen and Pippin!:clap:

I had forgotten about the Time Turner, one of my favorite parts of book three. Though the implications of using that while directly fighting Voldemort scare me---sooo many things can go wrong.:eek: But I think the whole fiddling with time idea is really interesting, so who knows?:)

The Veil also really scares me....I wish I knew what it was and what its done to my poor Sirius.:mad: (besides kill him:p ) Because that would be really sad if he were stuck in "limbo" forever....:(

*sigh* I wish I had more to say on the Prophecy itself...

[Tiger Louie]

I'm not convinced that killing is what will happen.

JKR has done her usual thing and made the prophecy open-ended, otherwise there wouldn't be much fuel for the fire of debate!

I particularly enjoyed the examples of the oracle at Delphi, Elwen.

I believe that the key to all of this, and a theme that has run through the books from the very first is choice

James Potter chooses to stand and fight Voldemort to allow Lily a chance to escape with Harry. Lily chooses to sacrifice herself when given the terrible choice of Voldemort killing her or her son.

2 things I take from what has happened so far -
love is the most powerful magical force
death is the greatest of all mysteries

There is a long and honourable history of people trying to circumvent prophecies by taking pre-emptive action (eg: the Bible story of Herod killing the first born sons of the house of David). These pre-emptive strikes do not seem to be successful. Voldemort is blundering about because he has half a story and no imagination, and from what we know of Voldemort he has an obsession with not dying. It's already backfired on him once, and I am sure we will see it backfire on him again.

An interesting point about the prophesy - Neville also handled the prophesy, and he doesn't appear to have gone mad, so we can't be sure that he isn't involved. I know Dumbledore says that there can be no doubt that Harry is the one meant, but he's been wrong before.

Pippin - I loved the point about where the Potter's lived! I've never picked up on that before.

We already know that magic, as we have seen it practised in the HP world, will not kill Voldemort. When the Avada Kedavra curse boomeranged off Harry, it wasn't able to kill him. To quote Hagrid from Philospher's/Sorcerer's Stone: "Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die." We have also seen that it will not kill Harry, first from his mother's sacrifice, and then from using the wand twin of Voldemort's wand.

I think we can assume that whatever lies ahead will involve choices, that death isn't the automatic outcome, and that we haven't seen the means yet which will bring about whatever outcome we will see in HP7.

Tiger

[lizz]

I do hope it will be like the oracle of Delphi.



I´m all for personal choices, but unfortunatly Harry doesnt have much choice, since Voldemort is sure Harry is his opponent. But Harry has a choice about how to handle this.

Maybe Neville could handle the prophesy because it could have been him, and the prophesy was labelled Harry Potter? and.

Is the prophesy really to be taken serious? More than because of Voldemorts believe in it and the consequences out of that? I do have the impression the wizarding world is quite superstitious.
Maybe they do want to believe in prophesies.
what do you think about the prophesy in PoA?

[Mirdan]

Originally posted by Tiger Louie
An interesting point about the prophesy - Neville also handled the prophesy, and he doesn't appear to have gone mad, so we can't be sure that he isn't involved. I know Dumbledore says that there can be no doubt that Harry is the one meant, but he's been wrong before.
but Harry gave the Prophecy to Neville...my book has apparently disappeared ( :rolleyes: ), but from what i can remember, Lucius Malfoy explained that for the Prophecy to be handled without losing one's mind, it has to be handed over by the person it belongs to. Harry gave the Prophecy to Neville sometime during the pandemonium, so Neville was safe from going down a similar road like his parents.

[swiftsnowmane]

Yeah, I thought it was just that the person who the prophecy was about had to INITIALLY pick it up, and then it could be handled by anyone. (Which was why Voldemort lured Harry there in the first place.)

[Pippin]

by Elwen
Whatever we think about Harry's diminished choice his parents DID have a choice (not knowing the prophecy they had a free choice)…. Harry's mother made sure that Harry could actually grow up and acquire some powers of his own to become a worthy enemy of Voldemort. That was free choice…. and as it should be with free choice it was taken without a knowledge of the consequences. Alright, I agree with that. The crucial point is of course whether Lily & James knew about the prophecy or not. If we assume that they didn´t, it´s their free choice alright. But then, we know that the Potters had gone into hiding, their house had been made unplottable. Doesn´t this kind of suggest they knew they were in particular danger? And wouldn´t Dumbledore have told them what the danger was, so they might defend themselves better?

Or did all Order members live in such extremely clandestine circumstances?


by Elwen
Well, Harry has become aware that Voldemort will continue to be his problem unless something is done about him. But I have the feeling that his shock about the prophecy shows that he had not made it clear to himself what we have guessed all along - that he might have to fight V to the death - not defending himself against V's attempt to kill him, as he has already done - but he himself fighting V with the intention to kill Voldemort, because he is the person who has to do so. That´s true, too. I probably hadn´t realised just how far ahead of Harry we´ve been all the time. Of course, for us Harry has always been the main hero and Voldemort´s Bane and everything, but he himself doesn´t know. Well, he´s been told often enough he´s special, he stands out as the marked man, but he doesn´t know that it´s HIS name on gazillions of book covers all over the planet. :D



I was very moved by this 'I am destined to be a murderer' thing. So was I… yes, Harry is still human. Voldemort of course would say that´s his weakness, and will try to take advantage of it.


by Elwen
Do I want him to be ready for it? In terms of skills, yes, in terms of mindset, no.
In a way Harry would have to become like the other side in order to be able to do this - he'd have to learn how to hate because it might have to be murder in cold blood. That is why I find it so significant that this is Harry's worst worry.... Yes, this goes back to the “how evil do you have to become to fight evil?” debate. I´d like to see Voldemort beaten with his own weapons – but not in terms of Harry learning all the nasty curses (I think he´ll never master the Cruciatus curse if Bella was right about how it is worked, and I´m glad about that).

by Tiger
We already know that magic, as we have seen it practised in the HP world, will not kill Voldemort. When the Avada Kedavra curse boomeranged off Harry, it wasn't able to kill him. We have also seen that it will not kill Harry, first from his mother's sacrifice, and then from using the wand twin of Voldemort's wand. Exactly! So how is it going to work?


by Tiger
Voldemort is blundering about because he has half a story and no imagination, and from what we know of Voldemort he has an obsession with not dying. It's already backfired on him once, and I am sure we will see it backfire on him again. Very well said, Tiger! :) Voldemort´s worst fear is death – and that’s a weak spot, probably the only thing that you could use against him at all (if we only knew how!).



by Elwen
I think this is the worst thing of this prophecy: as it stands now Harry seems doomed to have to work on himself to become very powerful, especially in dark magic, and not just in Defence against the Dark ages, and to become ready to kill. The emphasis is mine. Sorry Elwen, coming from a historian, it´s got to be the funniest typo I´ve seen in a long time. :D

Elwen :hug:


Well, Harry seems doomed - unless the Prophecy is like the Oracle of Delphi:

they tend to have various meanings and you have to pick the right one. Your examples of famous Delphi prophecies are very enlightening, Elwen, thanks ever so much! :)

They both rely on the ambiguous wording, or the interpretation of the words… but the ambiguity is very obvious. It´s obvious they´re open to different interpretations. I don´t see an obvious ambiguity in Trelawny´s prediction, though.


Let´s look at the Prophecy again. I´ll give you the wording:
“The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches… born to those that have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies… and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not… and either must die at the hand the other for neither can live while the other survives.” So – the first line doesn’t say that one *will* have to kill the other, only that the kid will have the “power to vanquish” Voldemort. Just having the power doesn´t mean they have to use it.


However, there´s the last line, “either must die at the hand the other”, that´s quite clear: It´s a bout *death* (not general defeat), and it´s about *killing*. Or how do you die “at the hand” of a person without being killed by them?


Maybe the correct interpretation is that Harry already *has* made his choice… now he needs to understand it. ;) :rolleyes: If that´s it I´ll scream! :p



I have the feeling that JKR is ostensibly narrowing her options to present us with an option that is utterly surprising. With JKR, you should never rule out an utterly surprising option. :D



Once more back to what the “weapon” is: I found this in Harry´s final conversation with Dumbledore:
”And so he [Voldemort] has been determined to hear that prophecy in its entirety. This is the weapon he´s been seeking so assiduously since his return: The knowledge of how to destroy you.” Does this settle the matter once and for all?




by Tiger
2 things I take from what has happened so far -
love is the most powerful magical force
death is the greatest of all mysteriesAnd pre-emptive strikes are useless? :D


by Tiger
Neville also handled the prophesy, and he doesn't appear to have gone mad, so we can't be sure that he isn't involved. Swifty and Mirdan are right, of course. But there has to be some significance why Neville and Harry handled (and smashed) the prophecy between them, and not Harry and Ron or Harry and Hermione.



by Lizz
what do you think about the prophesy in PoA? It sets the stage for Prof. Trelawny – suggests that she has some Seer qualities, that it is possible for her to make true predictions. Made us all eager to find out what her *first* true prediction was, now we know. It was a clue, basically, so we wouldn´t be too surprised that prophecies like this could be important.

[Seriphus]

I'm both disappointed and confused with the prophesy. Disappointed because I was expecting some revelation that I couldn't have guessed myself and confused because of the wording. Does anyone understand this bit:

and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.

Neither can live while the other survives? That suggests that only one can be alive at any one time, but both are alive at present. I really don't understand that line.

[lizz]

Seriphus, I think live doesnt necerssarily mean being alive but it could mean not being able to live like one wants to.
Voldemort wants power, but he cant get it because of harry. and harry basically cant get a Voldemort free life, he is always in danger by Voldemort. they are somehow conected through that scar.

I´m disappointed by the prohesy too. I´d have liked an explantion about the scar, why Voldemort couldnt kill Harry, but now I guess we will have to wait until 7 for that.

I do have a problem about the prophesies in general, but after all its the wizarding world so prophesies could be real. ;)

[qleap]

Originally posted by Pippin
After getting over the first shock and realising that the first time around, I read the Prophecy completely wrong (as in, if Voldemort dies so does Harry – if Harry kills him it will at the expense of his own life :eek: )...
I did EXACTLY the same :eek: :eek:

And I must admit that the very first thing I thought was "ohhh COOL!" :o sorry but it would have added a completely new menaning to Harry's actions, and IMHO a strongest tie between Harry and Voldy.

But again, the right meaning is deep too, since having to kill and survive might be worse than being killed.

PS= lizz, great sig! one of my favourite lines of the book.

[Pippin]

and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. I guess the interpretation depends on your definition of the word "live". :D

I mean, Voldemort was hell bent on killing Harry since Harry was born... then the curse backfired and he was reduced to something just short of death, while Harry survived. Dumbledore suggests at some point that only his involvement in the dark arts, his experiments to become immortal, prevented him from being killed straight away.

Then for the next fourteen years, Voldemort barely "lived", at least not in a normal human form, he couldn´t move around etc. Then he came back, and tried again to kill Harry, who escaped at the last second, and ever since he´s been after Harry who only survives through the ancient magic at the Dursley´s, the fact that 12 Grimmauld Place is unplottable, and the magic protecting Hogwarts.


So basically Voldemort is trying to kill Harry all the time. It´s not like they coexist peacefully.

Imagine a future tense: "neither will be able to live while the other survives" and it makes sense.



Another thing I´ve just thought of - remember at the very end of the fight in the Ministry, when Dumbledore and Voldemort are duelling and Voldemort somehow manages to possess Harry, tempting Dumbledore to kill Harry to get rid of Voldemort, he´s basically trying to make Dumbledore fulfil the prophecy, isn´t he? I thought he went inside Harry in order to protect himself, because Dumbledore wouldn´t kill Harry even if he was possessed, but it´s the other way round - he possesses Harry because he wants Harry to be killed and the Prophecy fulfilled, in his favour! :eek:




Lizz, I like your sig, too! I haven´t been able to find it though, which chapter is it in?

[lizz]

thanks for the compliments to my sig.

its from percy and padfoot, p.271

voldemort doesnt know the full prophesy then but just imagine what would happen if Dumbledore killed Harry. :eek:
That would be a great victory for Voldemort, his worst enemie out of the way. in case Harrys death wouldnt have been enough for his return to power.

[Tiger Louie]

Surely Dumbledore has a number of reasons why he wouldn't kill Voldemort when he's inhabiting Harry - one being the prophecy (which he has always known in full), the other main one being that he wouldn't kill Harry.

Tiger