Irony (OoTP SPOILERS )

[PhineasNigellus]

haha i have just realised how ironic it is the in the Goblet of Fire Sirius is the one telling Harry and Co that you should judge a man by how he treats his inferiors, not equals....
Does that make his actions in Order of the Pheonix out of charecter? (concerning evil house elf)
In a way he kinda got his come uppance fo being so cruel to the insane house elf.
(don't get me wrong sirius is, no WAS a great charecter)

[xKatiexBellx]

:jawdrop: It's the evil rotten house-elf of the blacks you're talking about! That house-elf just made me MAD!:mad: what an awful character!

[swiftsnowmane]

Yeah I realized that too, Phineas. I thought it WAS a bit out of character....
But then again, maybe not. Sirius could have just acted immaturely towards anything connected to his troubled past.
Or perhaps he was just deteriorating from being cooped up in that house? Or maybe Sirius never got a chance to really grow up, since he was in Azkaban from a rather young age? Or is that giving him too much slack?
This has been upsetting me, since Sirius did not act as immaturely in the GoF (at least towards Harry's safety). Or was that just my perception?:confused:

(Interesting thread, Phineas)

But yeah, back on topic: I cannot forgive or excuse Kreacher, even if Sirius WAS careless with him. I just can't.:mad:

[PhineasNigellus]

this is probably why :notworthy JK spent so much time on sirius's past and why we had to see him and James being vindictive bullies. In this way we can see the origins of Sirius "the Meany". Sirius must have really hated his family if he was that cruel and going against his nature. I mean he spent the last 15 years in azkaban probably reliving memories of his time with his family...and as such he was slightly unhinged to be trapped in that house again (to him it probably seemed like he spent almost all of his miserable life there)

---
(thats just my take on it)

[wilecoyote]

I like Sirius, but........
now I know this will probably upset some of his fans but.......
well Sirius really wasn't a very nice guy. I'm sure he was a good guy, but I think he had more Malfoy than Harry in him. I have to admit part of me wondered if maybe he wasn't an undercover deatheater, just by the way he acted. He had no remorse for trying to get Snape killed. Whereas Remus was very upset by it and obvious James was too or he wouldn't have saved Snape. I'm glad to know more about his family which explains why he was so cold and angry. I think that if it wasn't for James and Remus, Sirius might have been uncontrollable. I think Sirius and Kreacher are actually very similar, they are products of their enviornment.

ok you can hate me now. ;)

[Seriphus]

Actually wilecoyote I agree with you. I really like Sirius, but he did seem to have a vindictive streak to his personality in a way that, as you say, I don't think James did and Remus certainly doesn't.

But as pointed out, he had a pretty miserable life.

[PhineasNigellus]

i think i agree as well...without meeting James and Remus would he have followed into the familly business of Death Eating?? Why wasn't Sirius in Slytherin hedisplayed a lot of the charecteristics.
Or maybe he showed no remorse about the snape thing because he knew something the others didn't...

[Seriphus]

Why wasn't Sirius in Slytherin he displayed a lot of the charecteristics. Actually we don't know that he wasn't. It never mentions which house any of the marauders were in. There's been a discussion about this at the general OoTP thread.

[Pippin]

That´s an interesting theory there, Phineas:

If Sirius hadn´t had those great friends, would he have ended up on the dark side?

Snape didn´t have friends and he did become a DE - in the first place anyway. We can only speculate what made him come back.



Well, we don´t know which house the Marauders were in but we know that the sorting isn´t only determined by your blood or your character but also by your choices, so even someone with a family background as dark as the Blacks' wouldn´t necessarily have ended up in Slytherin.




Wile, I´m with you on Sirius' character. People keep saying "he´s changed so much in OotP" but I think we see him in OotP as he really was. NOT a Draco though, he doesn´t have Draco´s way of sneering at people and tipping teachers off and generally being mean and slimy behind people´s backs. He´s much more straightforward. Draco is a right coward when it comes down to facing people on his own, which Sirius doesn´t have a problem with.




I was shocked to read about the way he talks about Kreacher, and about his family. I mean I understand why he´s so bitter, but it´s really... whoa... The closer you look at it the more do Snape and Sirius seem to have in common, actually. Sirius is almost as bitter as Snape, and that´s saying something! :eek:

[Elfëa]

Pippin, I must say I really agree with you about seeing Sirius more fully in OotP as in GoF. Also agree with wilecoyote - he wasn't a nice guy. But, he was Harry's Godfather, and more nicer to him than Dursleys' had been.

And just question (considering Kreacher thing) - how many of us lives as we preach? :p Hardly any.

Do you find it ironical, how Harry didn't use the means of communication that Sirius gave him? (As he first refused to use the "thing that was always connected to Sirius" cause it might give out Sirius' and Order's location - and when he needed to contact Sirius, he didn't remember, but had to use extreme means to get in touch with S. And got Kreacher instead...)

[Rider of Rohan]

Elfea, it's definitely a bitter irony that Harry didn't use the mirror... think how things would have been different if he had just remembered! :(

I have to disagree about Sirius having more Malfoy in him than Harry... the biggest difference that I can see between Sirius and Malfoy was that Sirius had the capacity to truly care about people, as evidenced by the fact that he seemed to really love Harry. Whereas Malfoy will only act like someone's friend if there's something in it for him. Sirius did definitely have a darker streak to his character though, and it's interesting to speculate what might have happened to him had he not met Lupin and James. I wonder, though, if his bitterness towards his family would have prevented him from joining Voldemort anyway. He seemed to want nothing to do with anything that reminded him of his family, and since many of them agreed with Voldemort, Sirius might have avoided him just to avoid anything associated with his family.

And I agree that in OotP, we're seeing Sirius more and more as he used to be. One of the things I love about this series is that JKR just keeps on peeling back more and more layers of the characters, so we get a better and better idea of who these people really are. Especially with Snape's memory of James... these characters aren't black and white, which is what makes them so interesting.

~Rider

[Kristin]

Originally posted by Pippin
Snape didn´t have friends and he did become a DE

I think Snape was like any Slytherin, liked within his own house and disliked by the other three houses.

In OotP it says Snape was unpopular, but in GoF Sirius says that Snape hung out with a gang of Slytherins (including the Lestranges). So maybe Snape was just unpopular with the kids who were nearby when James and Sirius were being so mean.

[Elfëa]

Originally posted by Rider of Rohan
I have to disagree about Sirius having more Malfoy in him than Harry... the biggest difference that I can see between Sirius and Malfoy was that Sirius had the capacity to truly care about people, as evidenced by the fact that he seemed to really love Harry. Whereas Malfoy will only act like someone's friend if there's something in it for him.

Actually, we have seen that Malfoy does care of his parents, and I don't think that with the information given about Malfoy in the text, we can say that Malfoy doesn't have a capacity to truly care. (We can say neither, cause we aren't told... we can just... SPECULATE :D :p)

Kristin - or Rowling has just messed things up again ;)

[wilecoyote]

I think Snape was like any Slytherin, liked within his own house and disliked by the other three houses.

I have a feeling that Snape, was probably not really popular even in Slytherin. He seems too much like the solitary type who kept too himself and probably snitched on people.

I guess instead fo comparing Sirius to Malfoy, I should have said Barty Crouch Sr. during his reign. Barty was willing to use the same methods on the DEs as they used and somehow I think without the stabilitly of James (I don't think Lupin had much influence), Sirius would have been like Crouch. He would have hated the DEs so much he would have done anything to stop them.

JKR is amazing the way makes you feel so much for her charectors. No matter what the snobby writer says.:mad:

[PhineasNigellus]

I know it does not say it anywhere but Sirius was definitly in Gryffindor and so was Remus and Wormtail.
quite simply no one really has friends out side their house and Sirius and James were best friends. I think Sirius was different to Malfoy not in that he had the capacity to care but in that he had a conscience and he was too clever to ever see things other than they were. He knew what he was doing to Snape was wrong in a way that perhaps Malfoy never would understand. Sirius was a good person but he made his own decisions and lived by them. I think that he certaintly had the prmary charecteristic of Gryffindor, courage and although clever was assuradly not cunning (slytherin) being more inclined to go out and do rash things. He proved in the PoA that he was devoted to his friends by breaking out of Azkaban to try and save harry's life.

[wilecoyote]

I read at the Harry Potter Lexicon, a few years ago that the Mauraders, Lily and Hagrid were all from Gryfindor. It came from an interview with JKR some years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Sirius, but like Molly and Hermione, I'm not sure he would have been the best influence for Harry. Harry needs to stop thinking in terms of revenge and anger, and unfortunatley, I think that was almost all Sirius had left to give. He was an angry boy and after Azkaban any good that James and Remus may have brought out him was mostly gone.

May his soul rest in peace.:(

[lizz]

Major Sirius defence coming up

by wilcoyote
I'm glad to know more about his family which explains why he was so cold and angry
He was not cold and angry but depressed and who wouldnt have been in his place. Being shut up in a place like that, not being able to do what he really wanted to do, offically being harrys guardian and fighting Voldemort.

by Phineas Nigellus
Sirius is the one telling Harry and Co that you should judge a man by how he treats his inferiors, not equals....
Does that make his actions in Order of the Pheonix out of charecter? In a way he kinda got his come uppance fo being so cruel to the insane house elf.
I dont think he was cruel to Kreacher. Impatient , irritable not understanding yes. Sirius fault in dealing with kreacher was not juding him right and not handling the situation logical and careful. This is very different to B.Crouch who sacked a very devoted house elf because he was afraid.


by wilecoyote
I liked Sirius, but like Molly and Hermione, I'm not sure he would have been the best influence for Harry.
I´m sure he wouldnd have been the best influence,
but he wanted the best for Harry and truly loved him.
Thats a point were Harry has to grow up, he doesnt want to accepts faults in people he loves. Just look at his reaction when someone says Hagrid is a bad teacher. Or more to the point here when Hermione aks him if he really trusts Sirius judgement.


by wilecoyote
He was an angry boy and after Azkaban any good that James and Remus may have brought out him was mostly gone.
I dont think so. I dont think he was an angry boy, but very emotional and often acting reckless and not thinking what his actions might mean for others. He was not bad and turned into a good boy because of James and Remus


by wilecoyote again
I think without the stabilitly of James (I don't think Lupin had much influence), Sirius would have been like Crouch. He would have hated the DEs so much he would have done anything to stop them.
Sirius was far too emotional to be a cold power hungry technocrat.


by rider of Rohan
Sirius did definitely have a darker streak to his character though, and it's interesting to speculate what might have happened to him had he not met Lupin and James. I wonder, though, if his bitterness towards his family would have prevented him from joining Voldemort anyway. He seemed to want nothing to do with anything that reminded him of his family, and since many of them agreed with Voldemort, Sirius might have avoided him just to avoid anything associated with his family.
I partly agree with you here. His bitterness against his family would have prevented him to join voldemort thats right but he was bitter against his family because of their ideas so he would never have thought of joining Voldemort in the first place.
James and Remus certainly had a major influence on sirius. Do you think that because of their friendship sirius started to question the values of his family? Possible, but I´m not sure about it. I think he able to judge and decide on his own.


by pippin
People keep saying "he´s changed so much in OotP" but I think we see him in OotP as he really was.
I´m surprised at that. Only thing that has changed is that he is clearly depressed, but his character and behaviour was there and principally the same since we know him.
by PhineasNigellus
Why wasn't Sirius in Slytherin hedisplayed a lot of the charecteristics.
Or maybe he showed no remorse about the snape thing because he knew something the others didn't...
sirius ist responsible for what his family thought. his family would have fittet nice into Slytherin, but Sirius didnt, he had other values. I dont see Slytherin qualities in Sirius and people mainly want to put sirius into Slytherin because of his background.
I dont see a connection between the house and his behaviour towards Snape. And we havent heard all about the Marauders and Snape. But saying Snape deserved to be sent to meet a werewolf is disturbing.

[wilecoyote]

from lizz
Sirius was far too emotional to be a cold power hungry technocrat.

of course he wasn't power hungry. if had been he would have been a slytherin. what i meant was that sirius made it sound as though crouch was willing stoop as low as deatheaters in order to catch them. and i beleive sirius would have done the same. it would not matter to sirius that two wrongs don't make right, as long as he accomplished what he set out to do. like wanting to kill not capture wormtail. he was angry and felt betrayed, he let his emotions rule him.

from lizz
He was not cold and angry but depressed and who wouldnt have been in his place. Being shut up in a place like that, not being able to do what he really wanted to do, offically being harrys guardian and fighting Voldemort.

true he was depressed and for good reason. but he let his depression and his concern for harry make him reckless. like going to train with harry, suggesting that meet harry in hogsmead
and often it did come as anger. in the way he treated kreacher (studid house elf), and the way he reacted to harry, telling him he wasn't as much like his father as sirius thought.
it's that attitude that i think made him a bad influence.

[Pippin]

Posted by wilecoyote

Don't get me wrong, I liked Sirius, but like Molly and Hermione, I'm not sure he would have been the best influence for Harry. Harry needs to stop thinking in terms of revenge and anger, and unfortunatley, I think that was almost all Sirius had left to give.
Sirius was Harry´s godfather – which means his parents thought he was the best person to look after Harry in case something happened to them. Now James might have abeen a bit of a rogue at school but later on he knew what he was doing. So this must certainly be a defence of Sirius. Of course, we don´t know what exactly Azkaban did to him, but I think most of his anger and bitterness came from his years there. The place is just too horrible to imagine. Remember in PoA everyone´s fairly surprised Sirius hadn´t gone mad – what a struggle that must have been.

(Btw, it´s rather surprising how all those imprisoned DE don´t seem very much out of their right minds, either – but maybe they were also kept sane by the sweet dreams of revenge.)







Posted by lizz

He was not cold and angryAngry, yes, cold, no. On the contrary. (There, I said Sirius was hot. :rolleyes: ;))
It´s his anger that drives him, makes him do all those reckless and rash things. This has always been so ever since we first met him in the Shrieking Shack. It´s Lupin who´s the calculating mind there, not Sirius.


I dont think he was cruel to Kreacher. I think he was. Even behind his back, saying things that he didn´t mind at all if he snuffed it. I mean, Kreacher was being generally unsufferable and everything, so it´s not hard to understand why Sirius became so violent towards him, but it still was a very emotional thing.


He was not bad and turned into a good boy because of James and RemusI agree with that.


But saying Snape deserved to be sent to meet a werewolf is disturbing.
It is. I mean, bullying and hexing each other is bad enough, but Harry and Draco haven´t sent each other into werewolfs’ lairs yet, and Sirius wasn´t so much more evil. There must still be more to the Marauders/Snape relationship than what we´ve seen in the Pensieve.

[PhineasNigellus]

of course he wasn't power hungry. if had been he would have been a slytherin. what i meant was that sirius made it sound as though crouch was willing stoop as low as deatheaters in order to catch them. and i beleive sirius would have done the same. it would not matter to sirius that two wrongs don't make right, as long as he accomplished what he set out to do. like wanting to kill not capture wormtail. he was angry and felt betrayed, he let his emotions rule him.

Sirius and James had been closer than brothers. they were better than best friends. Not only was James killed but so was his Lily and an attempt made on Harry whom Sirius has the responsibility of protecting. The death of his best friends was achieved by someone else who had grown close to him, wormtail. The sense of betrayal must have been over powering. This was the same man who Sirius haad to do all the homework for (ok i don't know that ). Sirius had not only endured the death of his friends but perhpas relived it for the last fifteen years!

Remus on the other hand had not. He was equally willing to kill Pettigrew.
--
I don't think Black wuld ever have used an unforgiveable curse. If he was that way inclined he would have done so for wormtail in PoA

[Pippin]

Originally posted by PhineasNigellus

I don't think Black wuld ever have used an unforgiveable curse. If he was that way inclined he would have done so for wormtail in PoA But Sirius and Lupin were going to kill Peter in the Shrieking Shack, and would have done so if Harry hadn´t stopped them (because "James wouldn´t have wanted it"). I wonder if there are other ways to kill each other (by magic, I mean) than the A.K. curse. I think they *were* going to use it.

In the same scene, before everything is explained, Harry wants to kill Sirius, too - which I´ve always found slightly ridiculous. I mean, just how was he going to do it? In PoA, the A.K. hadn´t been introduced to us yet, remember? And even now we know it takes quite an effort to use it, you can´t just point your wand and say the words.

[susanna]

Is the curse evil - of the deed of killing someone?

[PhineasNigellus]

of course you could kill someone magically in other ways! you could set them on fire very viciously, let a firework out of your wand, make them expand till they pop,...
the Avada Kedavra curse is simply a ery powerful curse that always kills the target ('cept for Harry).

If Sirius and Lupin were going to use an unforgiveable curse they would not have been in Gryffindor.

--
at least thats what i think
susanna : Is the curse evil - of the deed of killing someone?
Well i think (no evidence to support this) that the curses are in fact black magic and to some effect the fact that you use them lessons you. Dumbledore is the pinnacle of good in the series and he and his Order refuse to use the curses. i think therefore Susana both of the are equally evil.

[Seriphus]

In the same scene, before everything is explained, Harry wants to kill Sirius, too - which I´ve always found slightly ridiculous. I mean, just how was he going to do it? I was wondering that. I don't think he would have done it anyway. When Remus turned up Harry was angry with himself, but deep down he was probably relieved that he didn't have to do what he said he'd do.If Sirius and Lupin were going to use an unforgiveable curse they would not have been in Gryffindor. Harry used an unforgivable curse in book 5 and he's in Gryffindor. I don't think your house has anything to do with whether or not you use them. A lot of the aurors probably came from Gryffindor.

I think there must be other ways of killing without using AK. In PoA Sirius and Remus were both going to kill Pettigrew together, or that's how it seemed at least. If they were using AK wouldn't it have just taken one of them?

[PhineasNigellus]

OF COURSE THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF KILLING PEOPLE JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE YOU CAN USE A GUN OR A KNIFE OR A SWORD OR...

[wilecoyote]

In OotP the wizard that attacked Hermione used a curse that caused a lot of damage and seems like that may have been one that could have killed, if he had been able to speak it.
There are probably curses that can kill, but AK does kill. Kinda like if you slit someones throat it may kill them, but if you cut off their head their dead.

I finised the book again, and when I got to the part where Harry talks to Lupin and Sirius about James, I realized that Sirius was much more level headed and calm. I wondered why Lupin wasn't living with him. I quess with being alone in his family home, having to listen to Kreacher and his mothers portrait screaming, Sirius I can see why he acted so irresponsible sometimes.
I'm starting to feel that next to Harry, Sirius is the most tragic character in the series. (unless you happen to go to the Snape thread):rolleyes:

[lizz]

Lupin did live with sirius, only he was away quite a lot of time because of his work for the order. And Sirius is a tragic character, just lok at his live. Being brought up in that family, fighting Voldemort, spending 12 years in azkaban, two years on the run, then having to get back into that house. He must have known how that it would be hard, but he offered it to the order nevertheless. The months in this house must have been hell and he didnt have the temperament to cope with that although I think even calmer less temperamentful people would have had problems staying there all the time.

[Pippin]

I don´t see how your house has anything to do with being able to produce unforgivable curses… I really wouldn´t jump to hasty conclusions about the characters just from which house they were in.

There are other ways to magically kill a person, alright. A.K. is only the most straightforward one, as well as practically unblockable.

I´m not convinced though that Remus and Sirius were going to use something else on Pettigrew. It´s not that they *had* to kill him together, they just wanted to share their revenge (and at the same time, the guilt of it).




There´s no need to shout, Phineas. :)




Posted by wilecoyote
I'm starting to feel that next to Harry, Sirius is the most tragic character in the series. (unless you happen to go to the Snape thread) And I´m starting to feel that practically every character in the series is starting to turn into a tragic character. :( Lupin belongs on that list, too.

[PhineasNigellus]

Pippin : I don´t see how your house has anything to do with being able to produce unforgivable curses… I really wouldn´t jump to hasty conclusions about the characters just from which house they were in.


I always thought that the sorting hat kinda looked into the heart of the person it was sorting. Therefore people in Gryffindor would be "better people" (as they obviously are) and less likely to resort to black magic or Dark Arts. I really do not believe that the good guys (Lupin and Sirius) would have used the A/k curse unless there was no other choice. Its an unforgiveable curse! They are good people, Dumbledore's pets (Lupin espescially - Hahahaha) and they would be like him above using the A/K.

--
i did not mean that Gryffindors couldn't but that they wouldn't use an unforgiveable curse.....(obvious exception being Harry...

[lizz]

OT, sorry, but this house topic starts really to bother me:
Thats the problem with the inter house competetion, making the others look evil. Just think what the stroy looks like from Slytherins point of view. The evil Gryffindors always get points for breaking the rules, unfair etc.

I´m sticking to the sorting hat in PS and GoF:
Gryffindor: daring, nerve, chivalry, bravest
Hufflepuf: just, loyal, patient, hard worker
Rawenclaw: ready mind, full of wit and learning, cleverest
Slytherin: using any means to achieve their end, great ambition
but that doesnt necerssarily mean evil. More likely maybe but not given that they turn evil. And not everybody behaves in character all the time.

And think of Cedric, he was in Hufflepuff and became champion. According to that song it only a Gryffindor could have been champion.

[Seriphus]

I totally agree Lizz. The idea that people's actions are determined by their houses really annoys me. Especially the way all the Slytherins so far (with the possible exception of Snape) have been portrayed as being downright nasty, foul specimens of humanity and Gryffindors are hailed as the elite.
Each person in Gryffindor is an individual and they differ from each other quite a lot. I don't see bravery as meaning not using an unforgiveable curse. Harry is already an exception to the rule. What about Percy? Would the mini- Barty Crouch Snr object to the use of them? There could be countless other ex-/Gryffindors that would have no moral objection to them.
I really don't like the idea that it's so easy to divide the human race into four definite groups.

[/rant] :o There are probably curses that can kill, but AK does kill. Kinda like if you slit someones throat it may kill them, but if you cut off their head their dead. Yeah that's kind of what I trying to get at. Some spells may not be powerful enough from one wizard, but from two or more - like the stun spells on McGonagall, or 'expelliarmus' on Snape - the result becomes more serious.


Phineas- Please don't shout at me. I am well aware that in RL there is more than one way of killing, but as far as killing using spells goes we have only definitely seen one so far that has been successful. Therefore I can guess that maybe there are other ways, but I'm not merely going to assume there are. :)

[Mirdan]

Originally posted by Seriphus
I think there must be other ways of killing without using AK.
it's not just spells that can kill -- potions. no one's mentioned potions yet. some are probably so dangerous that they can poison the unlucky recipient in a matter of seconds.

here's how that spell Hermione was hit with really felt:
He [Dolohov] made the same slashing movement with his wand that he had used on Hermione just as Harry yelled, "Protego!"

Harry felt something streak across his face like a burnt knife but the force of it knocked him sideways, and he fell over Neville's jerking leg, but the Shielding Charm had stopped the worst of the spell.
it sounds like that spell cuts up the person it is intended for. i can only imagine what Hermione went through when it hit her. good thing Dolohov wasn't able to properly say that spell on Hermione...it sounds lethal enough to kill :eek:


i guess anyone can do any of the Unforgivable Curses, especially if you have the strength and mindset to do them. that imposter Moody did say that it takes a lot out of a person to do the Avada Kedavra Curse. and Bellatrix told Harry that in order to properly do the Unforgivable Curses, you'd have to mean them. so i guess one would have to have a certain level of malignity for any of the curses to work effectively, especially if they put their minds to it.

[PhineasNigellus]

why does everyone say i am shouting when i use caps locks?

[Pippin]

Originally posted by PhineasNigellus
why does everyone say i am shouting when i use caps locks? Because in message board communication, the use of caps locks usually indicates that you want to put particular stress on what you´re saying, or that you mean to say it particuarly "loudly" (same with larger font sizes, while small font could be read as "whispering"). So typing something in caps locks gives people the impression that you´re shouting at them, even if you don´t mean to. :)




by PhineasNigellus

I always thought that the sorting hat kinda looked into the heart of the person it was sorting. Yes, but it didn´t only look at what was there at the time. It looks at the person´s potential as well as their choices. The combination of both puts you in a certain house (although your descent is a factor – but in most cases this might influence your choices as well, I mean I suppose all the Weasley kids *wanted* to be in Gryffindor).

Why else would forgetful, scared, clumsy little Neville be in Gryffindor? Because he has it in him to be a Gryffindor.

i did not mean that Gryffindors couldn't but that they wouldn't use an unforgiveable curse.....(obvious exception being Harry... Which I don´t see as an exception. Quite a few people do things they´re “not supposed to” – Hufflepuffs become school champions, Gryffindors are top of their year intellectually, Ravenclaws turn out to be silly cows ;), and Slytherins work for the good side (he does, I´m telling you! :p)



by Seriphus

There could be countless other ex-/Gryffindors that would have no moral objection to them.
I really don't like the idea that it's so easy to divide the human race into four definite groups. Absolutely, Serphy. I see the sorting as something like “careers advice”, too. It´s about giving people the best opportunity for individual development, putting them somewhere where they´ll meet like minded people and bring out the best in them, according to their individual gifts and abilities. Some make the best of it, and some don´t. Just like in RL.

[Marchwarden]

Remember, also, that the Unforgiveables are fuelled by the user's own evil (and may in turn deepen that evil). Harry was furious with Bellatrix, but that wasn't enough: he may have wanted to punish her for her crimes but, simply put, Harry Potter doesn't like to torture, control or kill people. Unless he learns to like it (through dabbling with Dark Arts, developing his cruelty and malice), he'll never be any good at the Dark Arts themselves (although he can still learn DADA).

This is why I don't think Remus and Sirius would have used AK. Remus is certainly not a killer at heart (except once a month, against his will). Sirius...has a Dark streak, his marauder years curbed it, and I don't think you can just throw that away because you're mad.

Also, I wouldn't equate Dark with villainy, necessarily. Snape's in the Order, but he's "up to his eyes in Dark Arts" - because he's spiteful, hateful, cruel and cold, most likely as a result of his miserable childhood and adolescence.

[PhineasNigellus]

I just can't see Snape's turnabout as being all due to conscience...I know this is often said but the most plausible reason would be if did love Lily. I just get the feeling that he is severly tempted by the thought of a spot of muggle roasting.

This is why I don't think Remus and Sirius would have used AK. Remus is certainly not a killer at heart (except once a month, against his will). Sirius...has a Dark streak, his marauder years curbed it, and I don't think you can just throw that away because you're mad. Having said that (and i agree with you) things could very well be different with Sirius having spent 12 years in Azkaban, All he has been thinking about would have been revenge and his dead best friends. Remus would have lost all his friends an became a total outcast of the wizarding world - I think that it is possible they might of also because that is the same curse the got L&J so there would be some peotic justice.

[Drizella]

I'm in complete agreement with Pippin here-- your House does not discriminate against your potential to do or not to do something. Do we know which House Moody was in? He for one doesn't strike me as terribly compromising or merciful. I know that he doesn't use the AK curse unless he absolutely has to, like most good Aurors I suppose, but that doesn't mean that he's never performed an Unforgivable.

I like also the examples you showed, Pippin, of the 'exceptions' within each House:
Hufflepuffs become school champions, Gryffindors are top of their year intellectually, Ravenclaws turn out to be silly cows , and Slytherins work for the good side
I don't doubt that JKR was thinking on this one, and she definitely proves a point here. He is SO working for the good side! :p

by Marchwarden
Harry was furious with Bellatrix, but that wasn't enough: he may have wanted to punish her for her crimes but, simply put, Harry Potter doesn't like to torture, control or kill people...Unless he learns to like it (through dabbling with Dark Arts, developing his cruelty and malice), he'll never be any good at the Dark Arts themselves
In the past Harry has shown mercy on people, a character trait to accompany his 'saving people thing.' But I'm not sure if I agree that Harry wouldn't have killed Bellatrix. I wasn't doubting his intentions in the least when he screamed bloody murder following Sirius's death. He has a tendancy of letting his emotions carry him too far (like a certain greasy-haired, hooked nose professor we all know... :D )

But on the other hand, Harry's always shown a cool head in the face of crisis. I can't imagine what else he would have done standing face to face with Bellatrix, though. It's an interesting question to ponder!

Lifetime imprisonment in Azkaban would be worse than death for Bellatrix, but I think at that moment Harry just wanted her out of existance completely, and he wanted to be responsible for it. He wanted revenge on her for murdering his godfather, and I don't doubt that he would have killed her. I don't think so anyway. Afterall, showing mercy on Pettigrew in PoA only eventually resulted in the reviving of Voldemort, so maybe Harry doesn't quite see the 'good' in that kind of nobility anymore.

And I don't doubt Harry's DA abilities in the least, not with all that pent up anger and bitterness. Being a natural at the Dark Arts has got to speak for something, I'm sure. His dark side is starting to *really* show, and the way his character is reacting to all this, well, trauma is completely spot on.