File Sharing

[PhineasNigellus]

What do all you guys think about file sharing over the internet? Do you think it is just stealing from the worthy artists or do you think it is acceptable?

Should it be a prisonable offence?

Just curious 'coz i hear it is becoming a big thing in America...

[DinEdhelwen]

I would be totally lost without file sharing! That's where I get most of my music. Why should I buy a CD for one song? On the other hand, if I find that I like a bunch of stuff from an artist that I've downloaded, I will go out and buy the CD. I don't think it should be illegal or anything like that; that's just nonsense!
Besides, there are files other than music that you can get, such as music videos and other performances that you can't get anywhere else. And then there's the free programs and pirated movies....;) :p :D

[Fleurdelacour]

I can't afford to buy CDs, they're rediculous prices. I'm not going to buy an album just for one song I want.

I'm not paying five quid for a single, or paying nearly fifteen quid for an album, the record companies are bloody rich enough as it is. We're the poor ones. I think Simon Cowell will survive somehow :rolleyes:

What about obscure artists? Well I've never heard of most of them, and if they're album is good enough, and I actually have the money, then I might buy it...

You cant get jailed for downloading music in Britian can you?...

[PhineasNigellus]

hear hear!!


File sharing for ever!!


I don't think we can in the UK but in the US people have begunb to get prosecuted so the UK is bound to follow suite soon :( .


( I never buy CDs but that is not because i download music that is because as Fleur says they bloody expensive! If i did not download music then i would not have any )

LONG LIVE KAZAA!!!

[Fleurdelacour]

Oh that's alright then! Everything is already so expensive in London with out having the fear of being prosecuted... :rolleyes:

[lithorose]

Buy used CDs. They're usually less than half the price and some stores will let you listen before you buy.

I don't really object to downloading hard-to-find things online, but it really is bad all around for the economy. If everyone can get everything online for free, then no one's making any money on anything, and a lot of businesses will just go bust, putting people out of work. Of course it isn't that bad now, but it has the potential, if and when more people realize how easy it is to get anything online.

[Lord Schaudt]

I listen to a lot of oldies wi9th expired copyrights so im pretty happy, considering i have some 1.3 gigabytes of music

[ChianaWeasley]

I dont buy CD's anymore, but if I do they're $5-7 at the most. But I just go to CDnow.com and find the cd, write down all the songs on a cd. Burn them and voila! :D

[Lord Schaudt]

Lol thats exactly what they fear people are doing :) good for you!

[Colli]

Call me a crazy conservative, but copyrighted material is copyrighted material. Downloading something you can't actually buy in stores is one thing, but downloading songs because you're too cheap to spend the money you probably have plenty of ("plenty of" does not mean "unending supply") is sleezy. And it's against the law.

[PhineasNigellus]

The problem in my opinion is totaly due the Evil - greedy- money snatching - (did i say evil?) - immorale Music industry. In London to buy a CD of your favorite band costs about £10 quite often more! The artists only get a tiny percentage of this the rest makes marketing machine like Simon "Pop idol" Fuller even richer. We *the music buying public* are being forced to pay extortionist rates for music - let alone to see a band live can often cost £40 +.



because you're too cheap to spend the money
I think others will agree when i say that on a students budget beig cheap doesn't come into it anymore!

I go to CDnow as well!

Everything is already so expensive in London with out having the fear of being prosecuted... I know! a tube ticket into central london costs £4.00 !!!!

[Little Miss]

if you want other opinions on the subject have a looksie at http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4474

i usually download and burn cd's because the stuff i listen to is either obscure, old, imported or ridiculously expensive.

although i might have to start buying cd's again soon, a year of playing cdr's has made my diskman rather tempermental.

[Colli]

So because you think the music industry is wrong, you're going to STEAL from them? Your logic is whack.

You're on a student's budget, I understand. I'm going to be a college freshman in three weeks, and I've already started looking at my budget. But if you saved up money, you could buy what you wanted. You're not poor. You're not destitute. So it may take you LONGER to get what you want (rather than taking 5 minutes to DL it) but you can still afford it. :)

Not being able to afford something that many people in the world would consider a luxury does not permit you to steal it.

[Little Miss]

there's stealing and there's stealing.

there's stealing as in going into someone's house and taking their dvd player.

and there's stealing as in sitting at your computer and clicking buttons.

i know its a cliche but in the top example you are stealing from a person. this person has spent their hard earned money on buying a piece of equipment to entertain themselves with, and unless they have insurance, they are going to have to spend that money again to replace it. even with insurance its a fiddly process to get your money back.

from the second example, you're not even stealing the original product, just duplicating it. if you were to duplicate the person's dvd player, sure it might annoy them a little that you're getting something for free that they paid for, but it wouldn't really hurt them. in the same way that currently downloading music isnt actually hurting the music industry and artists, just annoying them a bit that we're getting something for free that they could be making a profit from.

no record company is making a loss at the moment, and the artists get paid the same either way. maybe if the situation was to escalate, and by that i mean triple the amount of people with the "why buy when i can download" attitude, things would need to be re-evaluated.

but at the moment its really not that big a deal.

[Fleurdelacour]

I'm not cheap... I just dont want to spend a fortune on cds when I can get it for free online.

Like Phineas said, it's bloody expensive living here... I bought a travelcard and it cost me nearly six pounds, to get on three buses and a tube to kings cross!! I'm suprised they haven't started charging you to actally go and visit platform 9 and 3/4s!

Everything is expensive, London is meant to be one of the most expensive cities in the world.

It's not as simple as that Colli. I'm thinking of moving out of London, and going to Uni in Edinburgh because it's so expensive here. I dont want to sacrifice my education to support my education, and that makes practilly no sense...

The Music Industry steals from us.

[PhineasNigellus]

I think the thieves are the music industry exploit young impressionable people and force them to pay extortionist amounts of money for products. Seriously do you think it is fair for the men in suits to get 90% of the cash and the artists get 3%. Its not.

i recently saw a very good play by Ben Elton it kinda deals with the evil music industry (highly recommend it by the way features a lot of the songs of Queen).
The time is the future, in a place that was once called Earth. Globalisation is complete. Everywhere, the kids watch the same movies, wear the same fashions and think the same thoughts. It's a safe, happy, Ga Ga World. "Unless you're a rebel. Unless you want to Rock" On Planet Mall Rock'n'Roll has been banned for centuries. All musical instruments are banned. The materials from which instruments were once made are banned. There is no wood, no steel or gut for strings, no skin for drums, these things are long forgotten. The Company Computers generate the tunes and the kids download then. Nothing is left to chance in the pursuit of profit, hits are scheduled year's in advance. Dance moves are rigidly imposed. "Is this the real life? Is it just fantasy?" It is the age of Boy Bands and Girl Bands. Of Boy and Girl Bands. Of Girl Bands with a couple of boys in them that look like girls anyway. Or Andro Bands, groups of software created sexless cyber stars. All processed. All manufactured. Dancing in the Ether and lulling the kids into a steep that has lasted for centuries. "Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality" But resistance is growing. Underneath the gleaming cities, down in the lower depths live the Bohemians. Rebels believe that there was once a Golden Age when kids formed their own bands and wrote their own songs. The Bohemians dream that one day these lost chores will be heard once more. They call this his day, The Rhapsody. "Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see" Legend persists that somewhere on Planet Mall instruments still exist. Somewhere, the mighty axe of a great and hairy guitar god lies buried deep in rock. Placed there in the golden age against a time when it would be needed to inspire the kids anew. The Bohemians need a hero to find this axe. A crazy rebel with a heart of solid rock who will draw the guitar from the stone and play the ancient anthems.

[Colli]

I really can't believe the way you're trying to justify your actions: "Living in London is expensive." "There's stealing and then there's stealing." "The music industry is evil."

It makes me horribly sad to see these attitudes in people so young.

This isn't Robin Hood! There is no stealing from the rich to give to the poor, and then it being ok. Because the music industry HASN'T stolen from you. There's no recording artist forcing you to buy (or in your case steal) their music. YOU like the music, YOU choose to buy the expensive CDs. I could be mad that the prices of Ford Mustangs are so high, but that doesn't give me the right to steal one from the company (if that were even possible). Or even duplicate one and bring it home with me. That's still taking something that doesn't belong to you, even if the original owner hasn't lost out on anything.

[Little Miss]

first and foremost, not everything is black and white
(or stripey with stars on for that matter)

young people aren't the only ones who download music, films and games from the internet, and they're not the only ones who think its justified. go look in the music forum on CoE if you dont believe me - there's a few examples in there if you care to look.

this isnt stealing from the rich to give to the poor, this is downloading music from the internet. just to clarify, are you against downloading all music or just that which is copyrighted? many unknown and obscure artists use free downloads of their tracks as a way of getting noticed and building a fanbase.

copyrighted music is another matter entirely. its either illegal to download it or you have to pay a fee. problem is, the fees are fiddly to pay unless you have a credit card or nochex account or something, and the music that has fees attatched for downloads isnt the music that people download. many people use p2p to download live tracks, b-sides, unreleased tracks or tracks for which the copyright has expired. this is not illegal.

who are the major record labels out there at the moment? Sony, Virgin, Jive, etc, etc. these companies are, for want of a better word, just bitter. people have set up programs to exchange their products for free, so they get huffy because they're not seeing any profit. record labels dont care about morals or the artist's integrity, all they care about is the profit.

ask most musicians where they get their money and they'll probably say live gigs and merchandise. not record sales. people who download a band's music may not go out and buy the cd, but if they like them they may go see them in concert or buy and band t-shirt. concert tickets are £15 (thats like $30 isnt it?) and band t-shirts range in price from £10-£40. a cd is at best £7, at worst £20. cd's are not where they make their money. most musicians dont even care whether you download their music or not.

recently i bumped into the drummer from a british band called Easyworld in a pub. he asked me "did you buy the new single" i said "nah, i downloaded it" and he laughed and got in the next round. see, artists dont actually care. its just the labels and those out there who remain firmly convinced that its stealing and stealing under whatever circumstance is wrong who have a problem with it.

it may be "stealing" in the eyes of the law, but its a very popular method of distributing music and its not going to change anytime soon. if cases against p2p programmers and users end up in court, the only winners will be the lawyers. not the artist, not the label.

are you against downloading because it cuts the artist's pay or because you believe that stealing is stealing and there are no exceptions (or both?)

[Melkor]

New legal file sharing sites are out there now where you pay around $2 for a single. I don't think that is asking too much to be honest. I'm like the rest of you and hate to spend $14 plus on a CD to find out that all but one track are garbage.

So would you do th elegal way and spend $2 for that single so the artist doesn't go broke and stop making music?

IMO the artist should get their money from concerts and let us have free access to the music. That way the concerts would be more entertaining. :D

[Colli]

I'm only against sharing copyrighted files.

Little Miss, you're completely missing my point. Sure, recording companies may be all big and bad and whiny, and artists may not depend on CD sales for profit, but it's that it's against the law that is my problem.

Why does the world think that you only have to follow the rules if you think NOT following the rules will hurt someone? I mean, I'm not perfect, but I try to follow the speed limit when I drive and I would never steal a pack of gum from the grocery store, no matter how small and insignificant it may seem. Because it's wrong! Not because the grocery store doesn't really care if I take it, and not because the grocery store makes plenty of money from selling other stuff. SOOOOO many people smoke and drink underage, and it may have become commonplace and accepted, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Melkor, I wouldn't mind paying a fee, as long as what was going on was legal. :) I don't think 2 bucks is too much to ask, even for poor Londoners who can't buy all the songs they want.

[Lord Schaudt]

I can't pay 2 bucks a song that would still come to well over 1k for my collection.

its not stealing to me if its just energy, and hey im not stealing a physical substance.

[PhineasNigellus]

i think this is infat a quaetion of perception. I also have never stolen or would ever consider stealing from a shop ont he high street.

I do not agree with Lord Schaudt on this one because i think he is dodging the issue.

It is a lot easier to take the morale high ground but that is in the long term irresonsible and quite frankly sucking up.

The internet is fundamentaly different and in many cases has HELPED THE ARTISTS. Word spreads aboout them quicker and they develope bigger followings and as Little Miss explained far better than i can they do not loose out.

I am not old enough to remember but did people make such a fuss about the first video machines that can record films and tv? Do you do that by the way Colli? because that is every bit as illegal as downloading off the internet.

Little Miss :
first and foremost, not everything is black and white or for that matter stars and stripes hear hear!


why should people across the world be expected to abide by american copyright laws?

[Lord Schaudt]

I do not agree with Lord Schaudt on this one because i
think he is dodging the issue.


Of course i am doding the issue!

If i had my way they wouldn't be allowed to even sue us at all, make better cd's not good single songs and i might by them!

[Xazinon]

Originally posted by PhineasNigellus

i recently saw a very good play by Ben Elton it kinda deals with the evil music industry (highly recommend it by the way features a lot of the songs of Queen).

Ooh, I'm going to see that in about two weeks! :)

[Colli]

:rolleyes:

How is taking the "moral high ground" being irresponsible? And since when is it EASY? Oh yeah, piece of cake having 90 percent (random guess) of all people disagreeing with me. I don't pick the road that looks easiest, I do what I think is morally right no matter who else agrees or disagrees with me.

Phineas, I don't have cable. There's nothing to copy. :)

Here's food for thought:

Here on the Muggle Informer, and at our sister site the Council of Elrond, we have rules concerning illegal pictures. If a screencap is copied from a pirated copy of a movie, for instance, it is illegal. Now, no one is taking the picture FROM anyway, they're just duplicating it. But the administration of this site still says that it's illegal, it's copyright infringement. Even though the copier of the screencap isn't physically stealing, it's still wrong.

Anyway, you asked my opinion and I gave it. I'm done here. :)

[Moxie]

Originally posted by Colli
I don't have cable. There's nothing to copy. :)

Wow, there's still someone else in the universe without cable TV? Our 'net access provider tried quite hard to sell us TV with the broadband, but we firmly insisted that the number of channels offered doesn't matter if there's nothing worth watching on any of them. :p

I've already weighed in on this issue on the CoE's thread, which I believe has already been linked to so no need to post my opinions twice. To sum up: Record companies are evil, but I refuse to become a thief just to oppose them. iTunes and used CD shops for me, thank you :)

[PhineasNigellus]

Its not just recording from a cable TV company that is illegal by the way but recording from TV point blank is illegal.

[Lord Schaudt]

Not true, you can legally record from the TV on one channel, PBS, if it is to be used in a classroom

[Little Miss]

Originally posted by Colli
Little Miss, you're completely missing my point. Sure, recording companies may be all big and bad and whiny, and artists may not depend on CD sales for profit, but it's that it's against the law that is my problem.


ah sorry i wasnt quite sure if you were against it because you thought it was damaging the music industry or if you were agains it cause it is simply against the law.

as a slightly irrelevant point, laws are there to protect us and keep us safe and thats fine but sometimes the laws are wrong (like that thing in british parliament recently that was worded so if it had actually been given the go-ahead it would have made kissing illegal for under 15's)

laws are a great idea in principle but occasionally the government or governments get it a bit wrong, and its really up to the person whether they choose to follow or not, and whether they think its worth the risk (if any).

i prefer to think of the law as a guideline and make my own decisions about how i live my life and what i do with it.

[Cedric]

Lol, is that true? The parliament thing? That's sooooo funny :D

Plain and simple, the internet is the breeding ground for illegal behavior. There's sooooooooooo much of it out there, and the reason they do it is because no one can really catch them. And the feds busting a few high school students for musical copyright infringement isn't justice, it's biased selection.

-Cedric

[Little Miss]

Originally posted by Cedric
Lol, is that true? The parliament thing? That's sooooo funny :D


yeah, it would have been illegal for under 15's to kiss or touch each other sensualy. luckily someone realised the mistake and it got revised but it was quite funny at the time.

it was supposed to be a law to protect under 15's from kiddy fiddlers, not to protect them from each other.

not that it wouldn't be a good idea in some cases but there you go. good old british parliament cant get anything right *sigh*

[lithorose]

record labels dont care about morals or the artist's integrity, all they care about is the profit.But by pirating the music, the listener is doing essentially the same thing. The music belongs morally to the artists and record companies they make a deal with. If the artist doesn't mind that's one thing, but you can't simply assume that because some bands don't object, others won't.

The money the record companies make doesn't just sit in the pocket of a record company exec. Some of it does. But the rest of it is being spent, invested, and used up in the production of the CDs, which supports a lot of other businesses as well. I'm not saying the companies aren't gouging us, or excusing the greed that does exist. But it really isn't as simple as US vs. THEM, or RICH vs. POOR.

Also, a lot of artists get money based on how many CDs they sell, so if one person buys it and copies it off for five people, the artist is only being paid for one.

I am not old enough to remember but did people make such a fuss about the first video machines that can record films and tv? Do you do that by the way Colli? because that is every bit as illegal as downloading off the internet. There has been some fuss over the years and I guess it is technically illegal, but with analog systems, every time a copy is made some data is lost. Like making a tape off of a CD, and then copying that tape for a friend. The quality goes down. So then buying the CD you are buying the quality that you can't get off of a tape. Digital piracy allows for perfect 100% copying with no data loss. There is then no real advantage to buying the 'official thing'.

I think p2p would work if they could keep it under $2 a song (I think 1$ American is about right) and develop a simple way to pay, so you don't have to put a 1$ transaction onto your card, and provide a way for people without credit cards to pay the company.


Phineas, ever read A Brave New World?

[Little Miss]

Originally posted by lithorose
But by pirating the music, the listener is doing essentially the same thing. The music belongs morally to the artists and record companies they make a deal with. If the artist doesn't mind that's one thing, but you can't simply assume that because some bands don't object, others won't.

The money the record companies make doesn't just sit in the pocket of a record company exec. Some of it does. But the rest of it is being spent, invested, and used up in the production of the CDs, which supports a lot of other businesses as well. I'm not saying the companies aren't gouging us, or excusing the greed that does exist. But it really isn't as simple as US vs. THEM, or RICH vs. POOR.



one of my favourite bands got dropped off their major label (Sony UK i believe) becuase the label refused to re-invest the profit from their first two singles and tour into promotion for the third and their album. Specifically the problem with Sony is that they seem to care more about Playstation and TV's than their record label. Its not a case of rich versus poor, but its certainly something versus something. one something being the general downloading public, whatever their reasons for doing it, and the other something being people in power who dont like it and are doing sod all to try and regulate or benefit from it, just sitting and complaining a lot till microsoft or someone decides that they cant stand their whining anymore and pulls themselves together enough to stop it.

some bands do mind their music being downloaded illegally, some dont care, and some even think its funny and encourage it. those who actually care usually do something about it - audiogalaxy never had any copyrighted material to download of artists who specifically asked for it not to be downloaded, and napster was shut down and changed forever thanks to a couple of bitter old beardy blokes.

[Lord Schaudt]

for any band over twenty years old they should be happy people even want to listen to there music enou8gh to dl it

[PhineasNigellus]

a brave new world? nope never heard of it...care to elaborate...

[Little Miss]

what brave new world?

what?

huh?

where?

i dont understand :confused:

[PhineasNigellus]

no need to get muddled! i was just asking Lithorose to elaborate on

Phineas, ever read A Brave New World?


becuase i was wondering why that was relevent

[lithorose]

It's a story about a utopian future where everyone's happy and has everything they want. Except that they're not allowed to do anything meaningful. Everything is geared towards a shallow consumerism, and people look down on anyone looking for any meaning in life. It's a satire of a perfect future. That excerpt from that play reminded me of it.

[PhineasNigellus]

sounds quite interresting, i think i might just read it!

[Melkor]

Originally posted by lithorose
It's a story about a utopian future where everyone's happy and has everything they want. Except that they're not allowed to do anything meaningful. Everything is geared towards a shallow consumerism, and people look down on anyone looking for any meaning in life. It's a satire of a perfect future. That excerpt from that play reminded me of it.

Sounds like the US to me. ;)

[lithorose]

Just what I thought when I read it.;)

[PhineasNigellus]

NEW ARGUMENT

how are libraries better than files sharing. Surely it is no different?