Snape! [Archive] - Muggle Informer Forums

Pippin

09-24-2002, 11:27 AM

YIPPIEH! A new Snape thread! Great to see so many old and new Snape appreciators united in here! :)

by amrael
The first one back in Imladris turned into a major swooning thread, helped by Mr Rickman, of course. Erm - what are you talking about?

"Mr. Potter. Our new celebrity." :swoon:

:D

I must admit ever since the FOTR premiere I´ve been living on the moon as far as HP book and movie news are concerned, but I´m very much looking forward to the CoS movie, and OotP (can anyone update me on the publication date for that one?).

Just my few cents on several issues that have been brought up.

First, why is Snape head of Slytherin?

I have to side with Moxie - he probably is the only Slytherin among the teachers (and they can only be heads of their own old houses, can´t they?) at the moment. But I also think he´s having an eye on them for Dumbledore. However, that doesn´t mean he can´t side with them in Quidditch, or generally when it comes to house rivalry. He can be on the good side at heart and still like to see his house win the Cup. That´s no contradiction.

Second, the Snape-loved-Lily theory.

Hm. IF Snape´s grudge against Harry and his father was somehow connected to the fact that he and Lily were lovers, it would have had to be a pretty serious relationship, not just holding hands as teenagers in school. As Fleur and Anais have pointed out, there must be a deeper reason behind his hatred than teenagers´ problems.

BUT it is very unlikely that anything happened between Snape and Lily AFTER they left school. After all, James and Lily were head boy and girl together, they were in the same house, and even if they weren´t a couple yet in their schooldays, I just don´t see Snape coming between them any time after they left Hogwarts. (I think they very quickly married and had Harry.)

Plus, the grudge was there already - it dates back to their last year at Hogwarts, when the incident with Lupin happened.

So, if Snape and Lily were never together, the only other option would be that Snape secretly loved Lily, and that his hatred is in fact jealousy. This would explain his relationship with Harry.
He hates Harry, as Lily´s son of another man, the son Snape never had. Still, he saves his life, maybe out of some sort of loyalty towards Lily. Meaning that when he bullies Harry in class, he bullies James´ son, but when he saves Harry´s life, he saves Lily´s son (he may even feel it some sort of his personal duty, in place of the dead parents).

It could also explain why he went over to the good side (that was before Voldemort´s downfall, wasn´t it?) - maybe he realised Lily was in grave danger.

But there may also be a hundred other good reasons.

I´m rambling - I actually wanted to come to the conclusion that I´m not buying the "Snape loved Lily" theory. And even if it makes some sort of sense, it´s been around for so long now that I don´t think JKR will write about it now, even if she originally intended to.

And finally, I bet anything that Snape will make it to the end of book 7, but not beyond. :eek:

Well, what can I say? He´s mysterious, hs dangerous, he´s fascinating.

And btw, I´ve never seen HP on DVD - is there more Snape in the extended version?

Niniel

09-24-2002, 11:34 AM

Yellowish substance in the bottle , looks like a good wiskey , now we know how Snape relaxes , after seeing Harry ( or another unsuccessfull attempt to throw Harry from Hogwarts)
Poor, dear Severus...:)

Niniel

09-24-2002, 12:26 PM

So, if Snape and Lily were never together, the only other option would be that Snape secretly loved Lily, and that his hatred is in fact jealousy. This would explain his relationship with Harry.
He hates Harry, as Lily´s son of another man, the son Snape never had. Still, he saves his life, maybe out of some sort of loyalty towards Lily. Meaning that when he bullies Harry in class, he bullies James´ son, but when he saves Harry´s life, he saves Lily´s son (he may even feel it some sort of his personal duty, in place of the dead parents).
.
This is what I meant. You know how it happens in RL ,people always want what they can't have ,especially when it belongs to your worst enemy . If Snape had Lily he would have "show them all" And it is not necessarily "jealousy" maybe he really liked her though they were not in the same house ,like the way Harry likes Cho . (?) And only afterwards it became some sort of competition between him and James.

there must be a deeper reason behind his hatred than teenagers´ problems.
As I see Snape there is no such thing like mere "teenager's problems" for him. He never forgets ,and never forgives, besides, all these love affairs are usually very important for introverted persons ,like Snape.
I agree that after so much talking about this theory JKR won't write it .

Pippin

09-24-2002, 12:43 PM

As I see Snape there is no such thing like mere "teenager's problems" for him. But Niniel, wouldn´t you agree that when it comes to the real "teenager problems" that his students have, like the Harry/Draco rivalry, and the "love triangles" in GoF, he brushes them aside rather scornfully, as just kid´s problems?

For a teacher, he seems to have very, very little understanding of how kids feel, what is important to them, and what might hurt them (remember his nasty comment to Hermione in GoF!).

I think this shows that there *must* be some deeper reason behind his scorn for Harry.

(Apart from the fact that hating someone like this for a petty reason is somehow pathetic, and I don´t want to think of Snape as pathetic!)

If Snape had Lily he would have "show them all" ... And only afterwards it became some sort of competition between him and James. But that would meant that "love for Lily" wasn´t at the heart of the matter. If he only wanted Lily for himself to show the others, as a means of boosting his teenage self-esteem, I doubt if this could still generate as strong feelings as he still seems to have about the matter.

Oh and btw, I don´t see Snape relaxing with a glass of whiskey on his own. I rather see him having tea with Prof. McGonagall in fron of the fireplace and talking about philosophy.

But maybe that´s just me. :swoon:

Anais

09-24-2002, 01:10 PM

Pippin and Niniel, what interesting theories - but you're right when you say that if he had wanted Lily just to "show them all," then love for Lily isn't at the bottom of everything. But I still don't believe he had any feelings for Lily at all. It's not Snapeish enough. He's a complicated guy, and his complicated feelings, motives and actions are going to come from a complicated source - more complicated, that is, than just an old love affair and the feeling that he was never good enough.

I can also see him having tea with Prof. McGonagall, but talking not about philosophy, but about who's going to win the next Quidditch match! :cool:

Niniel

09-24-2002, 04:39 PM

But Niniel, wouldn´t you agree that when it comes to the real "teenager problems" that his students have, like the Harry/Draco rivalry, and the "love triangles" in GoF, he brushes them aside rather scornfully, as just kid´s problems?

I can't compare between these two cases . I was talking about his own "mere teenage problems" - which are not "mere" at all for Snape . Why should Snape ,with his nasty character care for his student's problems ?!
:confused:
But that would meant that "love for Lily" wasn´t at the heart of the matter. If he only wanted Lily for himself to show the others, as a means of boosting his teenage self-esteem, I doubt if this could still generate as strong feelings as he still seems to have about the matter.
Why not? I believe that above all , Snape loves himself ,he thinks he loves Lily ( and there ARE strong feelings - he liked her before she became James girlfriend ) but in fact , now he loves what possessing her may give him ( after the all grudge thing interfers - now it's a matter of pride and honour for him) so it is maybe a strong love ,but a little bit egoistic.
It doesn't sound very noble , but I don't see Snape as some kind of saint , drinking TEA .
Well it is only a theory after all ,I also don't think that "love for Lily " is the only thing which had caused such a great antipathy for Harry , it's more what stands behind this love .
Also I am not sure if I have explained the idea properly .:o

Bethel

09-24-2002, 08:51 PM

Very interesting discussion on Snape! I am loving this.

Pippin, to answer your more trivial Snape question, there is in fact more juicy Snape bits in the DVD. Well, an extension of the Potions scene that is, which is very much worth seeing. You have to play some little games on the DVD in order to view the extra footage, but as long as you've got some free time to sit down and play, it doesn't take long. You may need your book for help of you haven't memorized it! :p And when you've finished playing the game and have the stone, behold! Snape!

I don't believe there was a release date for OotP. :( I don't think so, unless something was let out that I didn't hear about.

Anais

09-25-2002, 01:23 AM

With all this talk about Snape-loved-Lily, I find myself wondering if there's any evidence to back up this theory. :confused: Where did this idea come from, anyway?

Just curious. :)

Pippin, the Snape bit is very much worth seeing.
Originally posted by Niniel
Snape loves himself
I was looking at that statement and trying to decide whether or not I agreed (I don't think I do) - and I realized just how little we really do know about our favorite Professor. I can't think of a single shred of evidence pointing us in either direction on this one.

So COMPLEX! :swoon:

Pippin

09-25-2002, 01:27 PM

Bethel, thanks for your help. So I need to put the DVD in the computer and play a game, and then I can access the extra bits?

OK maybe I have to buy the DVD first. :rolleyes: Oh, and a computer that plays it. :eek: :D

And I´ve just realised you´re Quenya. Hi! Silly me. *Pippin trouts herself*

Niniel, you have explained your idea very well. I believe that is a very common pattern in relationships, and often a reason for mad jealousy - unanswered love is a serious blow to one´s self-esteem, just as requited love is a self-esteem boost. And some people can´t see beyond that in their relationships. Although I don´t know if that was really the case with Snape.

Hm. If there´s any truth in the theory that the big secret in his past has something to do with a relationship (or potential relationship), I´m not sure if that would have been his way of reacting to things...

And on the whole I still believe that whoever first connected Snape with romantic love was just having a moment of wishful thinking. I´m afraid I don´t see it.

Oh and btw not all who drink tea are saints. :D

by Anais
With all this talk about Snape-loved-Lily, I find myself wondering if there's any evidence to back up this theory. It´s been around the net for at least two years (that´s when I first heard it anyway, on HP4GU, if I remember correctly).

As for evidence, I don´t think there is any! I think people were just trying to be smart and guess at what one of the big surprises JKR is so good at giving us might be!

I mean she deliberately keeps Snape´s past so mysterious, there is a reason out there for his changing sides, all we can do is speculate!

Not that we mind!

Snape loves himself. But not in a way that some people do, thinking of themselves as the great, unbeatable and irresistable hero of the universe. If Snape really loves himself, it´s in a rather withdrawn, introvert way - he´s got to because noone else does.

Like Anais, I doubt if I´d agree to the statement as it is. What I´m sure of is that Snape hates himself, too. (That´s not necessarily a contradiction btw.)

Most "nasty characters" aren´t happy about their own nastiness. Most of them haven´t chosen it for themselves, and very few actually enjoy it. Snape seems to have done quite some things in his life that he regrets now, that he may hate himself for.

Neglecting one´s physical appearance (which Snape does) also points in that direction.

On the whole I think of Snape as a person with rather low self-esteem - totally unfounded low self-esteem of course, otherwise I wouldn´t :swoon:for him.

Niniel

09-25-2002, 04:45 PM

On the whole I think of Snape as a person with rather low self-esteem - totally unfounded low self-esteem of course, otherwise I wouldn´t swoon for him.

Persons that love themselves but have a low-self esteem are also "common" characters. as an example - if you saw Gladiator-there was Commodus (the bad guy) of course I am not saying Snape is Commodus (because Commodus was rather stupid ) but this particular trait seems similiar to me.
I .personally met such persons .
By the way , if this theme seems boring or annoying to any of you , (I mean the loves- Lily theme) let's change subject . :)
Any ideas?:)

Moxie

09-25-2002, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
... I don´t see Snape relaxing with a glass of whiskey on his own. I rather see him having tea with Prof. McGonagall in front of the fireplace and talking about philosophy.

But maybe that´s just me. :swoon:

Given that the Head of Gryffindor is a proper tartan-wearing, thistle-sporting Scotswoman, they could easily both be drinking that yellowish stuff in the beaker ;) while verbally dismembering the students of each others' Houses and perhaps placing more-or-less-friendly wagers on the next Gryffindor v. Slytherin match :cool: (Specifically, McGonagall would be more friendly, and Snape would be less - but then, we all knew that already, didn't we?)

:swoon: <-- I like this smiley. Especially in this thread.

Of course, Pippin is also right in noting that non-saints also drink tea; I had three cups today, myself. :)

This reply's a bit late, as I had trouble reading and posting yesterday... it's good to be back!

Sars

09-26-2002, 11:54 AM

I'm actually (now) quite attached to the Snape loved Lily theory. Methinks the ongoing bitterness towards the Potters is just a little too deep run for a school rivelry.

On a different topic, do you think (Lily aside) Snape had any other wild romances in his past? Possibly ones that will come back up later in the books?

And to all you obsessed fangirls, I dare you, make the hair thing excusable.

Fleur

09-26-2002, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Pippin

Oh and btw, I don´t see Snape relaxing with a glass of whiskey on his own. I rather see him having tea with Prof. McGonagall in fron of the fireplace and talking about philosophy.

But maybe that´s just me. :swoon:

Maybe not tea and some disgusting potion that he forces himself to drink for some unkown reason - and, yes, I could see that happening.
I also reckon they could both be having some of that yellowish liquid - and arguing rapidly about something... I dunno I just see them as having one of those good old love-hate relationships.

I dunno - I don' t see Snape opening up to anybody now, but I think he could have had 'wild romances' in his past certainly. Jk said something about finding out about the proffessors spouses and such in OotP. What if Snape has a WIFE? Can you imagine it? but that couldn't be. He never goes home!

amrael

09-26-2002, 04:31 PM

Posted by Sars

On a different topic, do you think (Lily aside) Snape had any other wild romances in his past? Possibly ones that will come back up later in the books?

I don't think so. Not because Ms Rowlings hasn't thought about them. I think they wouldn't fit too much in the books. They are geared to a younger audience, and focused on Harry and Co, so bringing in a (probably) complicated love story for the adult characters is not a thing that will likely happen.

Not that I wouldn't like it, of course... ;)

Moxie

09-26-2002, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Sars
And to all you obsessed fangirls, I dare you, make the hair thing excusable.

The hair itself, as it is, is not. Wouldn't it be fun to try and clean it up though? ;) :D

Bethel

09-26-2002, 11:05 PM

I can't even imagine Snape having an actual recipricol love life. The most I can see is him possibly harvesting feelings of somesort for a woman, yet it may be something he would keep to himself. I can't see him emotionally connecting with anyone, let alone being intimate. Snape doesn't seem the type to pursue and seduce-- at least not in the romantic sense. (In his own Snapeish way perhaps he could!) :cool:

Hi, Pippin! :)

EDIT: No! Snape's hair is beautiful just the way it is! :p Greasy and neglected- just the way I like 'em to be! ;)

Colli

09-26-2002, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Bethel, thanks for your help. So I need to put the DVD in the computer and play a game, and then I can access the extra bits?
To watch the extra scenes you only have to play the DVD player and go through this sequence type thing. There are other things on the computer, but you can watch the extras scenes without it. :)

If Snape really loves himself ... he´s got to because noone else does.
We do! :swoon: ;)
What I´m sure of is that Snape hates himself, too.
Snape loves and hates his hair, even as he loves and hates himself.

Sorry. ;) I was influenced by the word "nasty" in the following sentence. ;)

:swoon: I'm enjoying this discussion, although the more I hear about it the less I like the "Snape loved Lily" theory. When Jo reveals what the real reason is, it's going to be something so amazing and incredible that we wouldn't have thought of it in a million years. :notworthy

:swoon:

Pippin

09-27-2002, 02:26 PM

OK, he might be drinking whiskey with Prof. McG, but I don´t imagine them talking just about Quidditch rivalry. I really think they´re exchange deep thoughts on Good and Evil and such things.

Maybe it´s just me wishing Snape had someone to confide in... there must be so much conflict of thoughts in that guy, and to think he must keep it all to himself and let it eat him up from the inside... :(

by Sars
Methinks the ongoing bitterness towards the Potters is just a little too deep run for a school rivelry. Yes, certainly. But it wouldn´t have to have to do with Lily.

I´d post my favourite theory about the other reason in here if Moxie and Amrael and Voronwe wouldn´t be bored to death by it because they´ve had to read it all before. ;)

by Fleur
JKR said something about finding out about the proffessors spouses and such in OotP. What if Snape has a WIFE? Can you imagine it? No. But I could imagine him being a widower, actually. :eek: Although even that is unlikely, as Bethel has pointed out. He´s not the type somehow.

Anyway, like Amrael said, even if that is the case, we obsessed fangirls wouldn´t hear half as much about it as we´d like to (I personally don´t - it just hurts too much! :D), because we´re not the kind of audience the books are primarily aimed at. Sadly. ;)

by Colli
When Jo reveals what the real reason is, it's going to be something so amazing and incredible that we wouldn't have thought of it in a million years. Amen to that. :)

Thanks for the technical support.

Oh and the hair! Wishful thinking on my part again, but like Bethel I think there´s neglected hair and neglected hair... the trouble is that I don´t think of Snape as physically repulsive. (Would you have guessed? :D) But I´m not sure if what JKR says about him actually allows that interpretation. I don´t know if she wants us to be able to find anything about him, or if she just means him to be plain ugly and repulsive. What are your thoughts on that?

I think the frequency the swoon smilie is used with in here is starting to rival Frodo´s Harem. :eek:

Just for the heck of it, Pippin swoons for Snape´s first appearance in CoS. :swoon:

Voronwe

09-27-2002, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Oh and the hair! Wishful thinking on my part again, but like Bethel I think there´s neglected hair and neglected hair... the trouble is that I don´t think of Snape as physically repulsive. (Would you have guessed? :D) But I´m not sure if what JKR says about him actually allows that interpretation. I don´t know if she wants us to be able to find anything about him, or if she just means him to be plain ugly and repulsive. What are your thoughts on that?

Wasn't getting Rickman for the movie Rowling's idea, or something like that? Obviously he can't be too much of a skank... ;)

Oh, and you can go ahead and repost your theory -- I don't mind. :D

And the extended Potions scene is cool! Rich in Snapely goodness, or velvet-voiced crankiness as the case may be...

amrael

09-27-2002, 03:51 PM

I´d post my favourite theory about the other reason in here if Moxie and Amrael and Voronwe wouldn´t be bored to death by it because they´ve had to read it all before.

Do, do, by all means. We can start talking about it again. :D

Colli

09-27-2002, 04:05 PM

New siggy!!!!!!!! :swoon:

Amen to that.
Thanks. :) That's raw emotion. ;)

Post away. Rehashing theories is so much fun. ;)

Bethel

09-27-2002, 07:27 PM

Yes, time for a new theory. I am relatively new to the HP boards as I was mostly an Imladris poster before I finished the HP books. All these theories are very new to me!

I don't think Snape is supposed to be physically revolting, but I do think he's supposed to make you cringe. (Did that make sense?) He has a powerful presence and his overall look encompasses his personality. Snape's physical appearance is attractive in the same way his personality is-- he's appealing in some mysterious way you cannot define. There's just something about him. There's just something about Snape. :swoon:

Besides, his complexity is mostly what makes him attractive. And the fact that he wears all black! With all those buttons down the front, along with that cloak... The way he carries himself is just alluring.

Colli

09-27-2002, 11:44 PM

Besides, his complexity is mostly what makes him attractive. And the fact that he wears all black! With all those buttons down the front, along with that cloak... The way he carries himself is just alluring.
AMEN!

:notworthy

I very much like his little robe... outfit... thing.

:swoon:

I was never much a fan for black, but as long as it's not the grunge black "I'm cool" look, it's ok. I like sleek black, black (classy) leather jackets, etc. :)

The button down coat is very nice.

Seriphus

09-28-2002, 11:57 AM

No. But I could imagine him being a widower, actually.

There were some theories going around that Voldemort had murdered Snape's wife and child, which made him leave the Deatheaters and also enforced his hatred of James who still had his family alive and well.
While I don't think this is very likely I can see him as a widower.

I don't think Snape is supposed to be physically revolting, but I do think he's supposed to make you cringe.

I agree Bethel. The description of Snape is through Harry's eyes so although perhaps Harry sees him as physically revolting it doesn't mean he actually is.

If you want a new theory how about this one below? It's a message posted about two years ago on the Warner Brothers boards. I forget the name of the poster but whoever it was put a lot of thought into it:

"I heard a rumour somewhere, and I've been building on it. We're all wondering why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much, why Snape is so angry and what job it is he is sent to do at the end of book 4. First of all let me say that I do not believe that he could have returned as a deatheater and spy on them, because Voldemort already knows that he has left them for good.

"The theory is this: Snape is a vampire or daphmir (I don't know how to spell it). A daphmir is the child of a father vampire or a human mother, they don«t have problems with sunlight.

"Things that could indicate this: First remember how Snape is described Bk 2, pg 78: "There, his black robes rippling in a cold breeze, stood Severus Snape. He was a thin man with sallow skin, a hooked nose, and greasy, shoulder-length black hair, ..." somewhere else in the books harry sees a picture of Sirius, who is described to have sallow skin too, and Harry compares him to how he would imagine a vampire looking.

"Next look at all the places that Snape is compared to a bat or a vampire. "Severus?" Quirrell laughed,..."Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have him swooping around like an overgrown bat. Next to him, who would suspect p-p-poor, st-stuttering P-Professor Quirrell?"

"In book four Ron and Harry are discussing how Snape got back to the castle after having attacked Crouch, assuming that he did it. Ron says "unless he can turn into a bat or something, I wouldn«t put it past Snape"

"There are also somewhere where his cloak billows out behind him like "a huge bat"

"Now look at the place in book four where Snape took the DADA job while Lupin was sick. He set them a werewolf essay, as a low blow at Lupin. Lupin then get«s Harry out of Snape's office when he is catched after having been in Hogsmeade. Lupin says "Harry, Ron, come with me, I need a word about my vampire essay--excuse us, Severus--" that could very well be a low blow back at Snape for trying to reveal Lupins secret!

"Now if Snape is a vampire/damphir then the job in the end of book four is to spy on Voldemort, but not as a deatheater, but as a bat. We know that he is good at brewing potions so he probably keeps his instincts in chess with some kind of potion. And we know he isn«t evil (not at the bottom at least, he did save Harrys life) so maybe he just joined the deatheaters in the first place, because Voldemort could offer him so much in the form of human prey. And Dumbledore knows he can trust Snape because he was the one to tip Dumbledore of about Voldemort being after the potters (it does say that they knew quite some time before Voldemort killed them that he was after them)

"The reason why he hates Lupin so much is because first of all because he knows his secret but also because of that prank. We know that Black isn«t evil so I can«t imagine him sending Snape down to Lupin when Lupin was a werewolf if he knew that Snape would die. But werewolfs and vampires have the instinct of fighting each other, so Black probably imagined that Snape stood a chance, and that it would be amusing to see how he would handle Lupin, maybe they were already on to that fact that Snape was a vampire and wanted it confirmed."

Serphy

Bethel

09-28-2002, 01:34 PM

Wow! What a theory! I have wondered about all those Snape-bat references, but never took the time to actually research like this reader did! Thanks for posting it, Serphy.

I must let this brew for awhile. :p

Fleur

09-28-2002, 02:43 PM

That is one cool theory. Quite plausible, especially the daphmir bit. I haven't heard of this before but it is a good theory!

But we'd have to know more about Joannes version of Vampires. I mean, she uses myths and legends, but sometimes she adapts them for her own puposes. Vampires on HP might have powers other vampires, say, Buffy vanpires or the orginal dracula type don't.

The more I read theories about Snape, the more I think the ones we hear over and over again - (e.g Snape tipped Dumbledore off about the Potters) Are the most likely to be untrue, because JK doesn't go for the obvious.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

BTW here is Joannes own drawing of our dear Snape

http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/cookarama/images/rowling/profsnape.jpg

Colli

09-28-2002, 06:41 PM

!!!!! Ok I didn't actually finish your post because I got really excited about something. :D I just skimmed...

Remember how we heard that Jo was telling some of the older actors secrets from the later books, to better enable them to act their part?

Well, when Snape (in the movie) says "I can teach you how to bewitch the mind and ensare the senses", he wraps his cloak around himself, much with the mannerisms of a bat. :swoon:

I've watched that scnene so many times... I even practiced it long enough until I could do it exactly right. ;)

:jawdrop:

I love this. I need this next book.

Watch for references in the next movie, too :)

Anais

09-29-2002, 07:13 PM

Snape as a bat...

Interesting. I'll have to think on this. I'm not sure I agree as of yet.

And the theory that Voldemort murdered Snape's family is intriguing, until I wonder why Voldemort would do that to him. :confused:

Pippin, what's your theory?

BloodFire's Mum

09-29-2002, 08:39 PM

Perhaps Voldemort killed Sanpes family to keep his loyalty and it back fired.
You know the kinda thing the Mafia does--Leave us and we will kill off your wife(wonder if Snape had one?) your kids etc?
:confused:

Pippin

09-30-2002, 08:12 AM

Yes, Voronwe, JKR said she liked Rickman´s Snape. And so do we. :)

But - if the pic Fleur posted is JKR´s own vision of Snape, I don´t think he´s that attractive... long black beard? :confused:

I´m with Bethel on the issue of attractiveness, and certainly couldn´t put it better myself.
by Bethel
And the fact that he wears all black! With all those buttons down the front, along with that cloak... That makes him look like a vicar, don´t you think? :D

Not that you can´t swoon for vicars.

Extended Potions class? Oh dear, I´ve gotta find a way to watch that one soon.

While I think BFM´s (Hi!) explanation (mafia-style type of putting Snape under pressure) is somehow logical, I don´t think Snape really had a family. Somehow... no, I don´t know, it doesn´t feel right. JKR´s reported comment on teachers´ spouses may well have referred to Dumbledore or McGonagall, or even some of the less prominent teachers (who knows who of them might become more important in the course of the series than we´d ever have guessed?).

Now for the theory Seriphus kindly posted... :)

Interesting! I was about to say, but JKR never introduces any new creatures or spells or magical transformations without giving us a few hints in advance. They never come out of the blue, and vampires haven´t been introduced yet...

But after reading that collection of quotes, that´s a feeble argument! "Vampire essay" indeed, I never noticed that! :D

If JKR is to reveal that Snape is a vampire, we need to have more information about vampires in general to be convinced! So keep your eyes open for any new references that point into that direction in OotP. If there´s nothing of the kind in the next book, I think we´re on the wrong track.

I´m with Fleur when she says But we'd have to know more about Joannes version of Vampires. I mean, she uses myths and legends, but sometimes she adapts them for her own puposes. Vampires on HP might have powers other vampires, say, Buffy vampires or the orginal dracula type don't. I hesitate to draw any conclusions as to what it means to a person to be vampire (how dangerous, painful, socially unacceptable, disgusting, useful or hindering it really is) before I have a better idea what JKR´s vampires are like, if they really exist.

And wouldn´t you think that with all the werewolves and animagi running around Hogwarts already, we´ve had quite enough of people magically transforming themselves into strange creatures?

I don´t know but I think Snape´s real secret has a lot more to with human emotions and psychology than with magic.

Seriphus

09-30-2002, 10:41 AM

And wouldn´t you think that with all the werewolves and animagi running around Hogwarts already, we´ve had quite enough of people magically transforming themselves into strange creatures?
I don´t know but I think Snape´s real secret has a lot more to with human emotions and psychology than with magic.

I agree with you on that. JKR has a very good knack of knowing what the reader suspects (or me at least).
***BOOK SPOILERS***(highlight)
After Quirrell turning out to be a bad guy I was looking for something similar in CoS. She realised the reader might do this and set up Percy as a suspect. It wasn't until book 4 that she used the same plot twist with Moody.
***SPOILERS END***
If there is a vampire revelation I can't see it happening so soon after the animagi storyline. Even though it's a good theory I don't think Snape is a vampire/daphmir. In fact I hope he's not because I want to be surprised by his past whatever it might be.

I would also prefer Snape's secrets to be emotional/pschological. He is at his best when faced with some emotional trauma. As much as I love his character and wouldn't want him to suffer, his inner torment makes anything about him compelling reading.

If JKR is to reveal that Snape is a vampire, we need to have more information about vampires in general to be convinced! So keep your eyes open for any new references that point into that direction in OotP. If there´s nothing of the kind in the next book, I think we´re on the wrong track.

I don't have my books so can't give a quote, but after Remus leaves in book 3 Dean Thomas says something like
"Who will we have teaching us next? A vampire?"

Serphy

Niniel

10-01-2002, 07:11 AM

I hope he is not a vampire after all , and his "dark secrets" will surprise me , but the clues make me wonder , maybe it is true...
And even if he is a vampire- vampires always appear as attractive creatures , and this can only add good to his reputation .

Fleur

10-01-2002, 01:33 PM

I agree that it is more (can we even say the word probable in relation to JK anymore?) likely? That Snape's secret is to do with personal trauma than something physical. I think.

I like the Daphmir suggestion better than Vampire though, because even if JK has adapted the idea of Vampires they are normally thought of as entierly evil (unlike a werewlof who is human most of the time) and I think it is plainly obvious (or not eek!) that Snapey is not entierly evil.

But that may be cluthing at straws.

I like the Voldemort doing something terrible to his famliy idea, though. the kind of thing that would happen.

Colli

10-01-2002, 05:02 PM

But if Voldie did something bad to his family, wouldn't Snape feel the slightest bit of compassion for Neville???

RosieLass

10-01-2002, 08:39 PM

How's this for a wild and wacky theory?

What if Harry's dad isn't really dead? What if he was split into two personalities (like Captain Kirk was) and Snape is just the nasty part.

And someone else...uh...I dunno...maybe whatever his name was that kept turning into a werewolf...is the good part.

:D

Spork

10-01-2002, 09:30 PM

Greetings, all!
Just adding my admiration & swoon for the most enigmatic teacher I've ever seen / read about. :)

I'm not quite sure I can add to the present debates, as I have only just finished the books for the first time (Fie, for shame! :D). So, I'll just wear a pensive expression, stroke my chin thoughtfully, and say, "Hmmmm...." :p

However, I do come bearing gifts!! ;) Alan Rickman, you have my swoon!

http://www.insideharrypotter.com/rex/48.jpg

http://www.insideharrypotter.com/rex/77.jpg

:swoon: :swoon: :swoon:

Bethel

10-01-2002, 11:22 PM

Sporky-pie! Welcome, welcome! Join the discussion anytime you like! And thanks for those scrumptious pictures!

While I agree that Snape's issues are more deeply rooted in psychology, I, like Pippin, have a hard time believing that Snape has or had a family. Snape doesn't seem like the family type. He seems like an outsider who may have only vied for a woman's love, but never received it. And I don't know that Snape would even know what to do with recipricated interest! He just belongs on the outside.

I also do not believe that Snape is wholly evil, either. That is, while it is obvious that he has good tendencies, I do not think he is capable of 'turning into' someone who is completely evil, like a werewolf tends to. I think he is consistent with the way he behaves and the way his personality is split up. I don't believe it is split, actually. His good and his bad are completely meshed and they work as a team. Somehow.

You think Snape is just as confused about his complexity as we are? Or maybe he's got himself down to an art? There's got to be a method behind his genius, though. That is obvious. (And yes, Snape is a genius. :D)

Anais

10-02-2002, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Spork
Alan Rickman, you have my swoon!
Thanks for the new sig! :D

And yes, I think he understands himself. Or at least he thinks he does. He's almost definitely the only one who does, too.

amrael

10-02-2002, 07:23 AM

I'd say Dumbledore might understand him better than Snape himself. After all, he took him back and gave him the role of supervising the upbringing and education of the most troublesome House at Hogwarts. That IS trust from a Headmaster.

Pippin

10-02-2002, 09:14 AM

by Bethel
You think Snape is just as confused about his complexity as we are? by Anais
I think he understands himself... He's almost definitely the only one who does, too.
Oh, you ladies crack me up. :D

Seriously, I think on one side, he´s knows exactly what he´s doing and where he wants to get to, only he does it quietly behind the scenes, without making a lot of fuss about it (like saving Harry´s life in HP PS). But then, there´s probably also a lot of inner torment and conflicts going on inside him. It breaks through the calm and controlled surface at the end of PoA. So yes, he understands himself, but he can´t always act accordingly. Strange guy.

Wholly evil, Bethel? No. On the contrary. As it has been pointed out right at the beginning of this thread, he´s certainly not nice, but that shouldn´t lead us to think that he isn´t good, either. I tell you he is. And we will find out ere the end. :)

Colli, great point about Neville. Maybe, in a really twisted way though, their similar experiences (if they have those) could be exactly the reason why Snape is nasty to Neville. What could be going on in his mind is something along the lines of "the same if not worse happened to me and I never got all this extra patience and attention and I still survived somehow, so why give it to Neville?" The sort of "if I can´t have it, he can´t have it either" thinking. Not very mature, I admit.

by RosieLass
How's this for a wild and wacky theory? What if Harry's dad isn't really dead? Assuming that you weren´t being serious about the second part of your theory anyway, as far as the first part goes, I really, really hope that Harry´s parents won´t turn out to be still alive after all. It would really take away from the huge importance that being an orphan has for Harry´s character. Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to be mean to Harry, but getting his parents back in the end would be so fairytale-y unrealistic. And I don´t think JKR will write it that way. After all, I read somewhere that she was traumatised by the early death of her own mother, and that she was trying to sort through her own experiences of loss and grief when she wrote about Harry.

Spork, great pics! Thank you, and welcome to Snapedom! :D Join in and keep those pics coming if you find any more.

Amrael raises another very interesting question. Dumbledore seems to have absolute trust in Snape. At the same time, Snape absolutely obeys Dumbledore. Have you ever noticed how even if he disagrees with the Headmaster, he never actually does anything against Dumbledore´s will?

What do you think this trust is based on? Snape is in such a difficult position, having turned his coat at least once in the past, I could imagine he´s not generally very well trusted in the Wizarding World. (Do we actually know what the other wizards, outside Hogwarts, think about him? Very little if anything. Seems I´ve got to re-read the end of GoF and PoA - interaction with Fudge - and check.)

Anyway I think Snape´s changing sides must have been such a drastic event with such a drastic motivation that it convinced Dumbledore that, ex-deatheater or no, Snape could be trusted. Something much more drastic than Snape wanting to save his own life or secure some egoistic advantages for himself.

Or was it? Can you see any kind of mistrust brewing somewhere below the surface? Can you see Dumbledore double-checking whether Snape is loyal? Can you see Snape betraying Dumbledore? I can´t.

Esgaroth

10-02-2002, 12:55 PM

Per the family thing on Snape, it came flitting across my mind early this morning (I dont know why) that perhaps the 'history' of Snape has more to do with Padfoot, Mooney, Wormtail and ...oh cant remember the forth...I am wondering if Snape is still extremely angry and bitter about his experiences with those guys because of LUPIN...or more to the point, since Lupin is a werewolf because of an 'unfortunate accident', that perhaps Snape is of the 'bat' quality because fo the same circumstances? I mean, if it *does* turn out that Snape is a 'bat'...to wit, a 'Vampire bat'...and that Snape knows the correct potions to correct these transformations, that they share a common 'grievance' or 'experience' or 'accident,' as it were?

Or am I getting into the obvious here?? To me it makes more sense that he would still be bitter about that than any thing connected to Lily or any other woman.

And if it is 'true' that he is a Vampire...perhaps his 'interest' or preference for Draco among all the other Slytherins has to do with the fact that he will never have children of his own???????

Leading into that, why WOULD he single out Draco among all the other Slytherins?? Aside from the fact that he is 'pure blood' and his father is 'powerful' among the Death Eaters??? I mean, there aren't 'Other' purebloods among the Slytherins/Wizarding students? And if Harry HAD gone into Slytherin House, what would the reactions be then??? (I know y'all were discussing this ealier in the thread)

Fleur

10-02-2002, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by RosieLass

What if Harry's dad isn't really dead? What if he was split into two personalities (like Captain Kirk was) and Snape is just the nasty part.

I think, sadly, that all hope for either of Harry's Parents still being alive was wiped out with the priori incantem chapter. :(

I think if Harry had gone into Slytherin, Snape would have first looked at him with surprise that may have put off his intial hatred of him for being James's son. Then he may have actually gotten to know harry's character more, and maybe even come to respect him and ... like him? Maybe. ;)

I have always wondered why Snape likes Draco so much if he knows his father is a Death Eater. Perhaps he wants to appear on teir side so he can go on being a spy?

I have to believe Snape had family once. That's why he's so bitter and twisted, because he lost them.
To have loved and lost sometimes makes you a horrible old git.

(That we love anyways!)

Colli

10-03-2002, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Fleur
(That we love anyways!)

That being the key thought. :swoon:

I've actually started wearing black now. :eek:

Monkfish

10-04-2002, 03:27 PM

Snape is half vampire (like Blade!).

He is loyal to Dumbledore just in the same way as Hagrid is (half giant).

:)

Irys

10-05-2002, 04:25 AM

The vampire/daphmir theory is very interesting. It certainly seems to have ample evidence of the type we usually get from JKR. But I doubt it, if true, is the only secret we will find out about Snape's past.

:( I completely missed out on the old Snape discussion, as far as I can remember. He's definately one of the most intriguing characters in the HP universe.

What I would like to know, is why Snape isn't picked for the DADA teacher, except as a sub? He wants it so much. Is it because he really knows too much from first hand experience, and Dumbledore et al doesn't want Snape's Death Eater past to become common knowledge, to protect Snape?

amrael

10-05-2002, 09:59 AM

Posted by Iris

What I would like to know, is why Snape isn't picked for the DADA teacher, except as a sub? He wants it so much. Is it because he really knows too much from first hand experience, and Dumbledore et al doesn't want Snape's Death Eater past to become common knowledge, to protect Snape?

The question is: Are we sure that Snape actually wants the DADA position? We know the Gryff students think he wants it, but I don't remember Snape saying anything about it. Besides, his extremely swoonworthy 'first year speech' is that of a man devoted to his Potions.

Maybe Snape doesn't want to teach DADA, but likes to act as if that was a grudge between him and Dumbledore?

Fleur

10-05-2002, 03:06 PM

I think, amrael, that you are right. Snape is surely very passionate about potions (alliteration!) I think the kids have it as a running joke that he wants the DADA job so bad because he gives of a very 'evil' vibe. ;)

Why would he want it so much? not many reasons I can think of. For one, you would have to be much more involved with the students, which Snape hates.

Irys

10-06-2002, 02:40 AM

I never thought of it that way. :) It's certainly something I'll think about my next reread. Some things should not be taken for granted.

Fleur

10-06-2002, 03:42 PM

:swoon:

I just watched some movie clips... He is rather swoonsome actually......

I think the movie may have been worth it after all.

Isn't it unfair that FotR was so amazing and in the spirit of the book, but HP was... well... shall I say less than adequate?

Colli

10-06-2002, 03:57 PM

:trout: <-- Fleur. We have a thread for that you know. ;)

Now, back to business!

:swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon:

By the way, Fleur, you did notice the bat-like cloakwrapping, right? :D

:swoon:

amrael

10-06-2002, 04:48 PM

Posted by Fleur

I think the movie may have been worth it after all.

Isn't it unfair that FotR was so amazing and in the spirit of the book, but HP was... well... shall I say less than adequate?

LOL

I agree. That's just the difference between a good director and a... less than adequate one? ;)

Zippy

10-09-2002, 10:47 PM

Zippy tries to slip in unnoticed.

Hi, my name is Zippy...and I'm a closet Snape lover.

:swoon:

Pippin

06-28-2003, 01:17 PM

WARNING: THERE WILL BE OOTP SPOILERS IN THIS AND PROBABLY THE FOLLOWING POSTS.

I didn´t want to make a new Snape character discussion thread - so can I please ask the mods to include "OOTP SPOILERS" in the thread title so we can talk about Snape in book 5 in here? Or would a separate thread be better?

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SNAPE REVISITED - CONTAINS OOTP SPOILERS!!!

OotP offers quite a lot of revealing insights into Snape´s character… maybe nothing so new that it would completely turn our picture of Snape upside down, but I understand him better and better (scary, eh? :D).

Can I just say that I was hungry for MUCH MORE Snape than what we get in OotP? But that´s just my sick and twisted view on the series, I know Harry is supposed to be the main character. :p

GoF left us with an extreme cliff hanger as to what Dumbledore had sent Snape to do at the end of GoF – and it´s just KILLING me that by the end of OotP we STILL DON`T KNOW!!!

I mean there are hints – Snape himself admits to Harry that it´s his “job” to “listen to what Voldemort tells his Death Eaters”, so the “spy” theory seems to have been confirmed, but only in a very general sense.

Snape´s being good at Occlumency makes him the ideal spy (I actually prefer the word double agent), of course.

So what´s he doing? Has he pretended to still be loyal to (as he´d say) the Dark Lord, and been received back into the ranks of the DE? Or is he just making contact with them to find out about things? Is he maybe using his mind-reading abilities on them?

At least Umbridge says at some point that Lucius Malfoy still “thinks highly of Snape”, so they still don´t know he changed sides. But Fudge for example knows it, and he´s been so friendly with Malfoy senior lately that it ´s hard to believe he didn´t tell him.

posted by LAdy Haleth in the General OOTP thread:
Have we ever had a scene where Snape and Lucius have interacted? No. And I don´t believe for a second that´s a coincidence. :D

Does anyone still seriously believe that Snape is NOT loyal to Dumbledore? :eek:

New insights also on the relationship between Snape and Harry.

I´ve always supported the idea that Snape´s hatred of Harry was real, not pretended, and that it stems directly from Snape´s hatred of James.

What I didn´t know was that this hatred was actually justified. I mean, imagine going through something like “Snape´s worst memory” – I HATED the Marauders for that, I felt so sorry for Snape, I almost forgave him everything I´ve ever seen of his nastiness. On second thoughts, of course it´s unfair to transfer this hatred directly onto Harry without giving him any chance to prove *he* didn´t deserve it. He might be taking his revenge, as Lady Haleth has suggested in another thread, or his memories just get the better of him, but in any way this is not nice, and against Snape´s own principles even.

posted by Tiger in the general OOTP thread
Snape can't get beyond his emotions as a child - I feel like he's an unexploded bomb around the place, and I'm convinced that he is going to become more and more significant.
What Snape says in the Occlumency lessons is highly interesting regarding his own character – he repeatedly tells Harry to let go of all emotions and free himself from anything that he can´t control rationally. That´s something Snape obvious values, utter rationality – and at the same time that’s something Snape is completely unable to achieve. Maybe he´s good at suppressing his own *positive* emotions, but he´s definitely not good at letting go of his *negative* ones. Leaving aside the question why he´s still so good at Occlumency himself, I think when he´s shouting at Harry to free himself of his emotions he´s shouting just as much at himself. Talk about seeing your own mistakes magnified in other people.

Is anyone still hanging onto the “Snape loved Lily” theory? I didn´t read anything in OotP to encourage it, but nothing either to debunk it.

What I do see at the end of the book though is a slight improvement in the relationship between Harry and Snape. Maybe it´s just me wanting to see it, but if Harry had told him anything like “I was just thinking up a curse to use on Malfoy, sir” a year ago there would have been hell to pay. :D

Tiger Louie

06-28-2003, 03:05 PM

OK, I'm speculating here - I think that Snape's attitude to James and the other Marauders is part of his protection from the death eaters - a number of them will have been at school with him (not necessarily in his year). If he comes to have a more normal relationship with Harry, and treats him like the other pupils he will be unable to fool those who support Voldemort.

I think if he does die, it will be as a result of putting his feelings for James to one side, and acknowledging Harry isn't James. It will make him vulnerable as it's made Dumbledore vulnerable.

I really hope that by the time they get round to making the later books into films, Alan Rickman is still involved - but not Chris Columbus. Snape is edgy and I want him to stay that way as we discover more about his background. I don't want any of it sentimentalised or sanitised.

BTW - I don't buy the Snape loved and lost Lily theory. I think he may have held a candle for her - but it seems quite obvious to me that she doesn't like Snape any more than she likes James - she just likes bullying even less.

I really can't wait to find out why he became a death eater, and why he left. Voldemort is horrible to his followers and they are all plainly terrified of him - he doesn't hesitate to torture them, or mutilate them so it's highly likely that he'd do something to the families (although in Snape's case this may not have been a bad thing...)

Tiger

Elwen

06-28-2003, 03:12 PM

Great idea to revive this, Pippin....

First I have to say that due to cinematic events since HP2 came out I have had to reassess my attitude to
1 - hair that isn't washed regularly and
2 - long black coats that looks somewhat clerical.

Although I still prefer that greasy hair on Aragorn and that clerical coat on Neo if you don'd mind, and in neither case do I think of these things as the *best* feature of the character in question ;) :D :swoon:

Nothing, however, can rival Rickman's Snape voice :D

Anyway -

I think it is becoming increasingly clear just how pivotal Snape is to the whole story. Am I the only one torn between bthe wish that Harry and Snape come to undertstand each other and the feeling that this would be far too cheesy?

I am rather curious about occlumency and the effects on someone's emotions and mind.... Is that what makes Snape so cold and without any good emotion? I love Pippin's way of describing it - he is good at keeping his positve, humane feelings at bay but he fails utterly at reigning in his hatred and grudges.

Is that what Voldemort might do to you?

I am more curious than ever to hear more about Snape's background.

I have just read the thread and there was something else that struck me - the image of Snape having tea with Mc Gonagall - I can't see it, somehow. Is he actually a friend of anyone in Hogwarts? Sometimes McGonagall lets her hair down and celebrates with gryffindor - would Snape do that with Slytherin when they win at Quidditch? Somehow I can't see him do that?

Snape is clearly polite in his interaxtion with colleagues he respects and he feels for the school (love his reaction to Umbridge :D )

But does he have friends? I have the feeling that most of them tolerate them but would not like him enough to have him over for a chat!

I am very puzzled by his relationship to Dumbledore - there is a good deal of *mutual* respect. Snape obeys Dumbledore and h seems to respect him - but Dumbledore also shows Snape respect - as much as to Mc Goinagall and no other teacher, IMHO.

We still need to hear more about that!

Concerning the worst memory: Clearly Snape wanted to get this particular memory out of Harry's way - is that the only one? There must be so many dark memories (whatever happened between Snape and Voldemort) that he would not want Harry to see, perhaps? And did he tell Dumbledore 'OK. If I have to teach Harry occlumency then you better lend me that pensive because I don't want him to see what I remember about his father' - and what would Dumbledore think of that?

It is all very odd still.

EDIT
OK, I'm speculating here - I think that Snape's attitude to James and the other Marauders is part of his protection from the death eaters - a number of them will have been at school with him (not necessarily in his year). If he comes to have a more normal relationship with Harry, and treats him like the other pupils he will be unable to fool those who support Voldemort.

I think if he does die, it will be as a result of putting his feelings for James to one side, and acknowledging Harry isn't James. It will make him vulnerable as it's made Dumbledore vulnerable.

Tiger, that is a very interesting idea. In a way I hope it won't be so - in a way I would like Snape to survive but I think we have a very slim hope for this!

But I think his attitude to Harry and Neville, as well as his attitude to Draco must have a reason beyond just simple emotions dating back to his school days.

__________________________________________

EDIT:

Just to throw in a few bits and bobs from JKR's interview in the Royal Albert Hall....
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkr-royalalbert.shtml

Stephen Fry (heavily paraphrased):
Then there's characters like Snape, who are bad but there is a certain ambiguity about him. You can't quite decide because there's something quite sad about him. Something very lonely. We're slowly (after five books) getting the idea that maybe he is not so bad after all.

JK Rowling:
Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely.

Have we been thrown off our gard? Was it all Snape's plan to make Harry see what he saw .... if Snape is good at hiding his thoughts from Voldemort he must be very clever indeed....

so perhaps Snape is on the other side after all? But then, probably not?

because:

I don't want to give too much away, but Dumbledore is a very wise man who firstly knows Harry is going to have to learn a few hard lessons to prepare him for what maybe coming in his life, so he allows Harry to do a lot of things he wouldn't normally allow another pupil to do and he also unwillingly permits Harry to confront a lot of things he'd rather protect him from but as people who have finished Order of the Phoenix will know, Dumbledore has had to step back a little bit from Harry in an effort to teach him some of life's harder lessons.

and here is another one....

JACKSON LONG:
Professor Snape has always wanted to be Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher. In book five he doesn't get the job. Why doesn't Professor Dumbledore let him be the DADA teacher?

JK Rowling:
That is an excellent question and the reason is… I have to be careful… not to say too much. However, when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor Snape said he'd like to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts please and Professor Dumbledore felt that it might bring out the worst in Professor Snape, so Dumbledore said: "I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you get along there."

Elwen

Tiger Louie

06-28-2003, 07:19 PM

You know, since reading Order of the Phoenix I have gone beyond thinking that Snape is horrible, but courageous to feeling a lot warmer towards him.

Still cannot understand how he can be a gifted potions master and not manage to develop a decent de-greasing shampoo :LOL:

The bits you have quoted from the interview are very interesting. I can well imagine that Dumbledore doesn't want Snape teaching DADA - I think it's not only risky for Snape going back to the dark side (I know this isn't Star Wars, but it's a good description!), but again is a potential risk of exposure for Snape. I would imagine though - whatever agreement he's reached with Dumbledore he has to keep applying for the job - because the death eaters and Voldemort would expect him to and any other behaviour would seem out of character to them.

Frankly though, Dumbledore has found his new DADA teacher, hasn't he?! Or he should just reinstate Lupin who was fantastic at the job (and a bit of a sweetheart to boot).

Tiger

Colli

06-28-2003, 08:07 PM

:D The best thread topic. Let me back up to Pippin.

Pippin: I was fuming for hours after I got over the shock over Sirius dying and realizing that we got hardly any new info on Snape. Still fuming, actually. I've been waiting a year and a half to find out what he's doing to spy on Voldemort. Here's to 3 more years! :beer:

I liked that Snape went to check on Sirius when Harry dropped him that "hint" in Umbridge's office. See, he can look beyond the hate and do what's best for the Order.

Tiger: I think IF Snape ever did like Lily (which I don't see evidence for) it would have just been because she was kinder to him than everyone else. In Snape's Worst Memory, she stuck up for him, and even though he called her a Mudblood, the memory of her "fairness" had to have stuck in his mind. And I'm assuming this wasn't the only incident like that.

Elwen:
Nothing, however, can rival Rickman's Snape voice
Amen :swoon:
Am I the only one torn between bthe wish that Harry and Snape come to undertstand each other and the feeling that this would be far too cheesy?
I've talked about this a bit in the main OotP thread.. I really wish they had come to SOME sort of understanding. Even if it wasn't a Barney (tm) moment, if Snape would have let Harry talk long enough to let him express the shock and horror of seeing his father act that way, it would have helped a lot.

And my jaw dropped when I listened to Rowling talking about Snape during that interview. What a complex man. :swoon:

:) Not to get off-topic, but Rowling had an interesting comment about Lupin, about how when he finally finds people that are kind to him, he tends to let them get away with a lot (Harry in PoA). I'd love to see him back as the DADA teacher, but it might present some authority problems...

Lady Haleth

06-29-2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by Colli
if Snape would have let Harry talk long enough to let him express the shock and horror of seeing his father act that way, it would have helped a lot.
That would have been Snape's worst nightmare... sympathy from James's son.

Colli

06-29-2003, 12:38 AM

Hehe.. good point. :D

What do you guys think about the fact that Snape's father abused his mother? Which means that there's a good chance he was abused too. :( I'm really surprised that Jo allowed us to see this particular memory... why do you think that is?

Pippin

06-29-2003, 03:33 AM

by Elwen
First I have to say that due to cinematic events since HP2 came out I have had to reassess my attitude to
1 - hair that isn't washed regularly and
2 - long black coats that looks somewhat clerical.

:LOL: Welcome to Snapedom, Elwen dear!!! :D :hug:

And thanks everyone for jumping back into the discussion! :)

by Colli
What do you guys think about the fact that Snape's father abused his mother? Which means that there's a good chance he was abused too. I'm really surprised that Jo allowed us to see this particular memory... why do you think that is? Yes, I was electrified when I read that short glimpse of his childhood! You guys must know, I actually do a lot of work on domestic violence and I can definitely see a pattern here. It´s not a big secret that being abused in your childhood makes it more likely for you to become an abuser yourself. It´s quite a simple mechanism of taking your revenge on the world (instead of the original abuser who´s out of reach). This stems from the insecurity and low self-esteem that abuse causes in a child - and when they realise this (usually as teenagers, some later) they haven´t learnt any other way of exerting power and authority over others than abuse, so they use it themselves. There could also be a "it didn´t kill me, so it´s not going to kill them!" kind of stubbornness (particularly when confronted with their faults). Abusers frequently try to play down what they´re doing - because if they admitted what they´ve done, they would also have to admit how much they were hurt themselves, back then, and that would bring up all the damaged self-esteem they´ve been trying to get over.

There is more to be said on this topic, but enough shop talk here, I´m just glad Snape doesn´t have any kids of his own. :eek:

Anyway a theory we can put aside now is that Sape maybe left the DE because Voldemort had done something evil to his family. I now don´t think he would have minded.

by Lady HAleth
That would have been Snape's worst nightmare... sympathy from James's son. Which is why I think Snape and Harry will never make it up in a teary-cheesy way. (Probably because they won´t have the time before Snape dies. :eek: ) But I can definitely see him saving Harry´s life, or Harry saving his, in the most spectacular manner, and then shrug and walk away. :Dby Colli
Here's to 3 more years! I´ll drink to that with you! :beer: by Colli
IF Snape ever did like Lily (which I don't see evidence for) it would have just been because she was kinder to him than everyone else. Yes, that would be the only way I could see it - unrequited, unspoken being in love with Lily, admiring her from a distance, and getting terribly jealous. by Tiger
Still cannot understand how he can be a gifted potions master and not manage to develop a decent de-greasing shampoo
Because he doesn´t care? Because when Voldemort´s back it doesn´t matter whether your confront him with washed or unwashed hair? :D

by Tiger
I can well imagine that Dumbledore doesn't want Snape teaching DADA - I think it's not only risky for Snape going back to the dark side, but again is a potential risk of exposure for Snape. I would imagine though - whatever agreement he's reached with Dumbledore he has to keep applying for the job - because the death eaters and Voldemort would expect him to and any other behaviour would seem out of character to them. He probably did want the DADA job in the beginning, but Dumbledore put him on Potions "probation", then realised that he could trust Snape, but that he was also a brilliant Potions master, and kept him there. Plus it would showed his "mistrust" of him.

but it might present some authority problems... Well, Snape is certainly already having extreme authority problems now...

Btw he might have to treat Harry badly in front of the other students (particularly the Slytherins) to keep up his show but the fact that he also does it in private (Occlumency lessons and previous conversations in his office) when nobody´s watching proves to me that Snape really hates Harry, he´s not just pretending.

Argh, so many more good points in you guys´ posts and so little time to reply! I´ll be back later with more Snape talk!!! :wave:

Tiger Louie

06-29-2003, 06:42 AM

Great this, isn't it? I can't quote everyone who has kick-started a thought so I'm not going to try.

If Snape has the usual Slytherin prejudice about 'mudbloods' how much conflict will he be suffering that the one person able to prevent him being bullied, the one person willing to stand up for him is a mudblood? If he is then drawn to her as a person (without public acknowledgement of course) he would be in total turmoil. He could love her and hate her at the same time. I see no problem with adding this to the very complex potion which is Snape!

On the abusive family background he comes from - every child's parents are their role model. However unhappy the treatment they suffer makes them, there may still be a subliminal acceptance that it is OK to behave in this way. If his father treated Snape in an angry and hateful way, this would be acceptable behaviour to children whether his own or in his care. Also, his behaviour at school, as a direct result of his home situation, would mark him out as a natural victim. Anyone who is, or acts, different from the majority of their peers can find this happening to them.

Tiger

Elwen

06-29-2003, 08:33 AM

I have to think about Snape's memories a bit more (and reread some stuff) to form more of an opinion - but the look into his background is definitely interesting....

Now for something different: Harry & Snape

Pippin said:
Which is why I think Snape and Harry will never make it up in a teary-cheesy way. (Probably because they won´t have the time before Snape dies. ) But I can definitely see him saving Harry´s life, or Harry saving his, in the most spectacular manner, and then shrug and walk away.

I don't want Snape to die, for some reason, but I guess it is likely. JKR hasn't even ruled out Harry's death (which I find a rather scary idea!!) :eek:

I would also say that Harry and Snape really becomeing friends is out - and that is agood thing. But I hope that they learn to respect each other for what they are. I think that has started - why else would Snape act on Harry's warning about Sirius ... and clearly Harry has to learn to ask Snape for help (given that the whole thing resulted from Harry's failure to learn occlumency fast enough Snape's opinion won't change quite yet!).

I wonder whether Snape learned anything from seeing all these dreadful memories in Harry's mind? He must by now understand that Harry is quite different from James Potter?

But I really don't want them to become friends because it would be so cheesy!

I love your 'saving life' scenario, Pippin. :D
Sounds about right. :)

I think that is the relationship of respectful, cooperative animosity that I would like for the two.

Elwen

Lady Haleth

06-29-2003, 10:40 AM

Pippen, your "shop talk" really speaks to the complex character that is Snape. It sounds exactly like what Jo intended... the victim becomes the abuser in adulthood, lashing out at anyone who appears as weak as he was. Very interesting comments too from Jo about not getting all warm and fuzzy about Snape yet. I don't think he acted on Harry's warning about Sirius because of any affection for Harry, as a member of the OotP it was his duty to see if Sirius actually had been captured or if Voldemort was reaching into Harry's mind. Hmm, Snape and Lily... another example of his worst nightmare... sympathy from a mudblood and owing her his gratitude. He wouldn't have been attracted to her at all. And the fact that she ended up with the chief bully sealed his hatred.

Monkfish

06-29-2003, 12:46 PM

Could Snape be Voldemorts son?

Tiger Louie

06-29-2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Monkfish
Could Snape be Voldemorts son?

Oh-oh-oh! Now there's a serious thought!!!! :jawdrop:

You can't imagine Voldy as a father, can you? I certainly can't! This needs some thinking about...

Tiger

Pippin

06-29-2003, 06:16 PM

Monkfish – why should he be? I´m quite sure after we´ve seen Harry´s glimpse of Snape´s childhood, there is no way his family background could fit in with being related to Voldemort in a direct line.

What we still don´t know is what exactly Snape is in the racist terms of the wizarding world: Muggle born, mixed family, or pure blood. And we don´t know either whether it´s relevant.

Elwen, just quickly about Snape´s relationship with the other teachers, and having tea with McGonagall – it´s probably just me wanting him to have someone to talk to at Hogwarts, and McGonagall seems like the perfect person to do just that. That aside, I think they all respect him (some of them, such as Flitwick and McGonagall, might know his personal history), even if they might not approve of his (non-existing :rolleyes: ) pedagogic skills.

by Elwen
Concerning the worst memory: Clearly Snape wanted to get this particular memory out of Harry's way - is that the only one? There must be so many dark memories (whatever happened between Snape and Voldemort) that he would not want Harry to see, perhaps? Yes, I wondered about that, too. Even conceding that JKR is fairly liberal with superlatives (how many times has Harry “never felt worse before” or “never been more afraid” by now? :rolleyes: ) I was puzzled and (in a sick and twisted way, no doubt) even disappointed that this should have been Snape´s worst memory ever. But since the books are from Harry´s POV the chapter title might give Harry´s impression and conclusion rather than the truth.
And did he tell Dumbledore 'OK. If I have to teach Harry occlumency then you better lend me that pensive because I don't want him to see what I remember about his father' - and what would Dumbledore think of that? He´d certainly say, “right, here you go, you know how to use it”. Dumbledore is aware of the dangers of training someone Occlumency whose mind is being messed with by Voldemort. It´s quite possible that Snape said he wanted to borrow the pensieve to hide his memories about Voldemort, rather than those about James, and then decided by himself he wanted Harry to see those even less.

Did Dumbledore ever know just how badly Snape was being bullied by the Gryffindors? Did he ever try to intervene? Maybe he feels something like guilt towards Snape now and took him under his protection to make up for it, since he didn´t prevent the bullying and maybe it made Snape go over to the dark side more easily. But no, Snape would certainly still bear some grudges against Dumbledore if that was the case, and he doesn´t seem to.

by Elwen
I am rather curious about occlumency and the effects on someone's emotions and mind.... Is that what makes Snape so cold and without any good emotion? I wonder what´s the cause and what´s the effect there. Maybe he became like this through Occlumency training – but I think it´s even more likely that he was fascinated by Occlumency because he´d been trying to suppress his emotions about the bad experiences he´s had in his family and at school before. I´m sure you people all know that feeling – if you have negative emotions, you pretend to yourself you don´t really feel like that, you don´t really care, you try to talk yourself out of it. Another method of self-protection. And once you learn this has its uses, it´s easy to start believing that emotions of ANY sort are bad and need to be suppressed, so that´s how Snape became so bitter, why he seems to grudge everyone their happiness. Remember how extremely annoyed he gets at all the silly little love birds at the Yule Ball in GoF. So: Is that what Voldemort might do to you? No, I think that´s what the Marauders did to him. :(

by Elwen
I hope that they [Harry & Snape] learn to respect each other for what they are. I think that has started. It has. Though Snape is still a long way from admitting his own feelings to himself. Expressing them to others is even one step further, particularly if he´s supposed to express them to James´ son.

I think that is the relationship of respectful, cooperative animosity that I would like for the two. Which his what I´d have liked for Snape and Sirius (the more I think about Sirius´ death the more pointless it appears to me :().

JK Rowling in the Royal Albert Hall interview (thanks Elwen for bringing all the Snape quotes here!):

"Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely. " Right, as if we aren´t! :D

I´ve just had an idea – I don´t think Snape is still on the dark side, nor will he go over to it again – but he might be tempted to. Maybe he´ll be given the choice! Or maybe the good guys (and us readers!) will believe he has turned his coat again! That could be an interesting source of suspense and conflict. Anyway I´m dying to see a confrontation of Snape and Voldemort one day, maybe we´ll find out then if he´s really the ex-DE that “will be killed, of course”. :eek: If JKR doesn´t ever write that scene I´ll be severely (;)) disappointed.

On the family background again:
by Tiger
On the abusive family background he comes from - every child's parents are their role model. However unhappy the treatment they suffer makes them, there may still be a subliminal acceptance that it is OK to behave in this way. Not only this – some victims of abuse (mostly female victims) react to it not only by accepting it as “OK”, but even by thinking up twisted reasons why it was their own fault, why they´ve deserved to be treated in this way.

This is a quite disturbing field of human psychology. Are we really still talking about a children´s book here? :eek:

Also, his behaviour at school, as a direct result of his home situation, would mark him out as a natural victim. Anyone who is, or acts, different from the majority of their peers can find this happening to them. Unless they´re very strong, which Snape probably wasn´t. Have you noticed that the Marauders actually called him Snivellus? I mean, can any of you see Snape cry? :eek:

by Colli
What do you guys think about the fact that Snape's father abused his mother? I think that there´s a good chance that Snape has never learned another way to treat women, so watch out Colli. :D

Tiger Louie

07-02-2003, 06:09 PM

Given that we've been given hints by JKR that there will be more twists in the Snape tale to come - couldn't he best be described as 'a necessary evil'?

Tiger

Monkfish

07-02-2003, 08:34 PM

Snape being Voldemort`s son would certainly fit in with the abused becoming the abuser.........

Also, it would explain why he could get away with threatening Quirrel (while Voldemort was "attached" to Quirrel). After all, when Snape threatened Quirrel in the forbidden forest, Voldemort was there too (under the turban).

Hmmmm....

Mithrildin

07-03-2003, 02:35 AM

I don't believe that Snape is Voldemort's son. Snape is a former Death Eater and I don't believe Voldemort would have allowed anyone who knows him as well, maybe even his weak spots, to live. In none of the five books is there a hint (such as with Bellatrix Lestrange, who was mentioned a few times before, or Narcissa marrying Lucius Malfoy) that they might be connected in any other way than master-servant.
What would interest me, though, is this: Why has Snape chosen to help Dumbledore? Was it a matter of just wanting to fight on the good side or did Dumbledore do something for him in return? Dumbledore once said that "it [was] a personal matter between [himself] and Professor Snape".
I also don't think that Snape can ever return to Voldemort. In Book 4, Voldemorts announces he will kill Snape, and I don't believe he can be deterred.

Dumbledore probably gave Snape the pensieve without him asking for it - all those inside informations about Voldemort Dumbledore could not allow Harry to see.

I hope JKR explains Snape's memory of his parents in some way - maybe they were fighting about paying allegiance to Voldemort ? Who knows ? Suspense ! :D

Pip, I noticed the superlatives as well - it's quite annoying. How about more synonyms ?

Personally, I have a soft spot for old Severus Snape. Turning from Voldemort to Dumbledore but still being undercover required a LOT of courage. And somehow, maybe through reading Cassandra Claire's Draco series, I have a soft spot for Draco, too.
:o

Tiger Louie

07-03-2003, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by Monkfish
Snape being Voldemort`s son would certainly fit in with the abused becoming the abuser.........

Also, it would explain why he could get away with threatening Quirrel (while Voldemort was "attached" to Quirrel). After all, when Snape threatened Quirrel in the forbidden forest, Voldemort was there too (under the turban).

Hmmmm....

I don't believe Voldemort was already under the turban when the Snape/Quirrel conversation took place. When Harry confronts Quirrel there is the whole bit about how Voldemort has been directing Quirrel's actions but then decided to take a more active part - I took that to mean that it was at that stage that Voldemort possessed Quirrel's body. I think it is born out that he was still without a body when he drinks the unicorn blood - from the description of him fleeing when Firenze comes to Harry's rescue. I haven't got Philospher's Stone in front of me so I can't do quotes to back up my views on this.

I really hope we get LOTS more Snape back story - it's so frustrating having only the little glimpses we have had!

Althought it's difficult speculating - I actually wondered if Snape's mother was a muggle? I say this because I don't think that there is anything to prevent a mixed blood witch or wizard going into Slytherin (eg Tom Riddle) and we know there are Slytherins with troll or hag antecedents (from descriptions of pupils). Snape's attitude to muggles is still not fully clear to me from the books so far.

Tiger

Pippin

07-04-2003, 11:32 AM

by Tiger Louie
couldn't he best be described as 'a necessary evil'? Well, he´s certainly not *nice* but you can be good without being nice. I don´t see him as a necessary evil. Having to work together with, let´s say, Mundungus Fletcher could be a necessary evil but working together with Snape certainly isn´t. There are just some annoying side effects if you´re not friends with him, and who is.

Monkfish, I still don´t buy your theory… particularly because I don´t see the *point*.

by Mithrildin
What would interest me, though, is this: Why has Snape chosen to help Dumbledore? Was it a matter of just wanting to fight on the good side or did Dumbledore do something for him in return? Dumbledore once said that "it [was] a personal matter between [himself] and Professor Snape".I think the “personal matter” in this case meant rather that Harry wasn´t supposed to know, so I wouldn´t read too much into it. What it could mean, however, is that Dumbledore is the only one, apart from Snape of course, who *really* knows.

And it´s driving me mad that we still haven´t found out!

I also don't think that Snape can ever return to Voldemort. In Book 4, Voldemorts announces he will kill Snape, and I don't believe he can be deterred. Neither do I. I want to know what he´s DOING “out there risking his life”!!! Someone make JKR TELL me!!! :mad: :o

by Tiger
Snape's attitude to muggles is still not fully clear to me from the books so far. Neither are they to me – I´ve never heard him comment on the worth (or lack of, more like :p) of a person with regards to their descent. But maybe it simply doesn´t matter. Maybe Snape never really adopted Voldemort´s racist beliefs. Maybe he was just drawn to the dark side because he saw a way of taking his revenge on the world there.

I have another theory. Do you think it´s possible that Snape actually *wanted* Harry to see the “worst memory” in the Pensieve? Maybe he knew Harry would be tempted to find out what it was?

I mean, Snape has been saying so many unfriendly things about James, wouldn´t he want Harry to know that his bad opinion of James was actually justified?

Elwen

07-04-2003, 01:20 PM

I have another theory. Do you think it´s possible that Snape actually *wanted* Harry to see the “worst memory” in the Pensieve? Maybe he knew Harry would be tempted to find out what it was?

I mean, Snape has been saying so many unfriendly things about James, wouldn´t he want Harry to know that his bad opinion of James was actually justified?

Finally someone picks up on this. I have been bpointing this out somewhere either in this thread or in the ootp thread. I can't se that Snape accidentally let Harry see this! If he took it out of his memory to prevent Harry from seeing it he would not have left Harry in the office alone with the pensieve!

So, I am with you, Pippin (actually, someone suggested that some of this memory could have been tampered with but I don't think we need to assume this.

Elwen

swiftsnowmane

07-04-2003, 02:48 PM

But remember that this is SNAPE'S memory, so it could be completely accurate, but accurate from SNAPE'S point of view. I'm not excusing their actions, but perhaps James and Sirius seemed even worse because Snape hated them already so much and...I dunno.....never mind.:o

lizz

07-04-2003, 03:02 PM

We definitly need to know more about the relationship between Snape and James. according to sirius they were always hexing each other. I guess this memory is the worst for Snape what happend during their fights.

Mirdan

07-04-2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
I have another theory. Do you think it´s possible that Snape actually *wanted* Harry to see the “worst memory” in the Pensieve? Maybe he knew Harry would be tempted to find out what it was?
but judging from Snape's violent reaction after he caught Harry looking at his memory in the Pensive, i would say that it was the last thing Snape wanted Harry to see -- it showed Snape at a very vulnerable situation, something i doubt he wanted anyone to see, least of all Harry. i think that because Snape was caught up in the heat of the moment (the screams from out the hallway), his memory being inside the Pensieve completely slipped out of Snape's mind (hehe...pun not really intended).

Pippin

07-04-2003, 05:03 PM

by Lizz
I guess this memory is the worst for Snape what happend during their fights. Agreed, but that wasn´t my point. It´s the worst memories about the Marauders, but is it the worst memory ever in his life? For someone who was a DE, then changed sides, and then works as a spy or double agent and still survives all that, it can´t be the *worst* thing he´s ever had happening to him.

by Elwen
Finally someone picks up on this. I have been bpointing this out somewhere either in this thread or in the ootp thread. I can't se that Snape accidentally let Harry see this! If he took it out of his memory to prevent Harry from seeing it he would not have left Harry in the office alone with the pensieve! I´m sorry Elwen, I didn´t want to steal your theory without giving you the credit for it (the theory, not the stealing ;)). I must have overlooked that item. :o

But I´m not so convinced of my own theory any more, I admit. I mean, assuming that Snape´s dislike of Harry is real, remember how angry he is with Harry when he catches him looking into the Pensieve? He actuallly believes Harry is enjoying himself. He appears weak and pitiable in the memory after all - and I don´t think Snape has quite the emotional stability not to care whether he does, particularly in the eyes of James´ son.

If he´d wanted Harry to see it, he would have reacted differently - he´d have known or guessed that Harry was unhappy and disillusioned about his dad and his friends, and he´d have tormented Harry with some mean comments about that, rather than throwing him (along with some of the jars :D) out of his office.

EDIT: Mirdan, we seem to keep cross-posting the same ideas tonight. :D So who´s reading who´s mind, I yours or you mine? :eek: ;)

Mirdan

07-04-2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Mirdan, we seem to keep cross-posting the same ideas tonight. :D So who´s reading who´s mind, I yours or you mine? :eek: ;) can't read yours, so you must be reading mine! :eek: :D

but we seem to be on the same wavelength, though :cool:

Pippin

07-04-2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Mirdan
can't read yoursMirdan, you´re not concentrating enough... just empty your mind... rid yourself of all emotion... :eek: :D

(What, rid myself of emotion in a Snape thread? Impossible. :swoon: )

but we seem to be on the same wavelength, though :cool: indeed. Down to the choice of colours in signature quotes. I swear that was a coincidence, I hope you don´t mind. :)

vandevere

07-05-2003, 01:25 AM

All this talk about Snape having been an abused kid makes me realize that he and Harry have something in common. Harry has been abused by the Dursleys too. They've both suffered the same kind of meaness...

Vandevere

swiftsnowmane

07-05-2003, 02:02 AM

What I don't get is if Snape has been abused so badly, why does he support Draco so much? Or is this just evidence that he doesn't really favor Draco but is putting up a good front?

Or am I over-analyzing here?;)

Mirdan

07-05-2003, 06:09 AM

the choice of colours in signature quotes. I swear that was a coincidence, I hope you don´t mind.
Pippin, i like the colors you chose for your sig http://www.muggleinformer.net/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

vandevere, you make a good point about Harry's and Snape's similar experiences. one would think that Snape would be more sympathetic towards Harry, but as far as we can tell, being James Potter's spitting image of a son is definitely a major hurdle Snape can't seem to get over. that's probably why Snape could care less whenever Draco harasses Harry with taunts and threats...Draco is pretty much doing the same things James probably did to Snape back in Hogwarts.

Tiger Louie

07-05-2003, 06:17 AM

Just when you think you know where a character is coming from, JKR just throws another little something into the pot!

We now have the experiences of a number of different characters with parallel experiences to Harry. Snapes are the most disturbing because his reaction against Harry are so strong.

I do think that Snape's behaviour towards Harry is still dictated by his childhood experiences at the hands of Harry's father. I wonder, if Harry didn't look so much the image of James whether Snape's reaction would be as extreme?

It also suits Snape and Dumbledore that Snape continues to display this total antipathy towards Harry. There is nowhere in the magical world where Snape is ever going to be completely safe having switched sides - but Hogwarts is probably as good as it gets. The death eaters don't know he's active against them, even if Voldemort does. He'd hardly give them cause for suspicion (the man's irrational about Harry, but not stupid).

I think it more likely that if Snape is hiding his feelings about anyone, it's about Draco. Judging by the grey underpants - Snape was not the adored apple of his parents eye that Draco appears to be, he's also not from a weathy family, and whilst busy hexing James whenever he could, he was not in a position to be the bullyboy that Draco is. Draco is the opposite of Snape except in being in Slytherin, as far as I can see.

You wonder if Snape wouldn't have had a chance to turn out as a nice person if he'd been able to make friends the way that Harry has - for all the ups and downs Ron and Hermione have stuck by him through accusations of being a dark wizard (when the school discovers he's a parsel mouth). The glimpse we have seen of Snape's schooldays is that he is a loner - who could he sound off to about the bullying, or boost his confidence? Conversely - if Harry hadn't been able to make friends, how would he have turned out? Is Snape a cautionary tale for how Harry could have been treated as a friendless boy?

Tiger

Lady Haleth

07-05-2003, 10:09 AM

Oooh, interesting, Tiger. And conversely, is Snape seeing in Harry not only a repeat of James, but what he himself could have been (had he had loyal friends)? His anger at all things Potter includes an element of jealosy.

As far as Draco goes, I said earlier (maybe in another thread) that Snape has no love for young master Malfoy. He's using him to do things to Harry that he himself cannot do, due to his position at Hogwarts.

This is a man who has lost his ability to love, or at least views love as a weakness. In the final 2 books hopefully he will come to respect Harry and stop blaming him for James' abuse.

lizz

07-05-2003, 11:48 AM

Interesting idea Lady Halet, Snape being jelous of Harry because he has friends.

about Malfoy: maybe snape just uses him, umbridge says Lucius speaks most highly of him. Being mean to Draco wouldnt help there I guess.

She really shold have told us what Snape is doing. How can he be in high regards of Death eaters when he doesnt show up there. Has he convinced them he is spy on dumbledore and cant show up at meetings not to give away his true loyalty?

Pippin

07-05-2003, 03:52 PM

by Swiftsnowmane
am I over-analyzing here? You might be, but then we all are. :D

Posted by vandevere
All this talk about Snape having been an abused kid makes me realize that he and Harry have something in common. Harry has been abused by the Dursleys too. They've both suffered the same kind of meaness... That´s an excellent observation. They´ve both been abused by the family they grew up in, and to a certain extent have also had bad bullying experiences at school. Although what happened to Snape in this respect is much, much worse (while Draco has often insulted and hexed Harry, he never actually humiliated him to the same degree the Marauders humiliated Snape, which I think was the worst things about the memory), as Tiger and LAdy Haleth have pointed out, if Harry hadn´t had friends he might have found himself in a similar victim situation.

by Swiftsnowmane
What I don't get is if Snape has been abused so badly, why does he support Draco so much? I don´t think he favours Draco personally, given his position in the Order. I think he´s rather taking his revenge on James by letting Draco & co. bully Harry. He finds himself in a situation where he can make life miserable for Harry, by tolerating the Slytherin´s behaviour, and uses it. "Favouring" Draco is just the side effect.

Posted by Mirdan Draco is pretty much doing the same things James probably did to Snape back in Hogwarts. Yes.
by Tiger
Draco is the opposite of Snape except in being in Slytherin, as far as I can see. More than that: Draco is in the position Snape always wanted to be in – not only in the position to bully his enemies, but also being recognised as the “leader” of the Slytherins, prefect, Quidditch player, from a rich and powerful family and everything, not the “little oddball” Sirius says he was. I really think by tolerating Draco´s behaviour (or possible even encouraging it) he´s taking a late revenge. It doesn´t have to mean he likes Draco, he´s just using him.

Posted by Tiger Louie
We now have the experiences of a number of different characters with parallel experiences to Harry. Snapes are the most disturbing because his reaction against Harry are so strong. I wonder, if Harry didn't look so much the image of James whether Snape's reaction would be as extreme? Quite likely.

You wonder if Snape wouldn't have had a chance to turn out as a nice person if he'd been able to make friends the way that Harry has - for all the ups and downs Ron and Hermione have stuck by him... The glimpse we have seen of Snape's schooldays is that he is a loner - who could he sound off to about the bullying, or boost his confidence? Conversely - if Harry hadn't been able to make friends, how would he have turned out? Is Snape a cautionary tale for how Harry could have been treated as a friendless boy? I think you´re right. Snape hated Harry from the start but maybe it´s getting worse every year because in spite of it all, Harry seems to be growing stronger and more confident. Snape is probably really angry at Harry for not having as miserable a school life as he did, in terms of “why should he have it all so easy if I didn´t?”

by Haleth
he is a man who has lost his ability to love, or at least views love as a weakness. How true. I hope he learns that again before it´s too late.

by Tiger
(the man's irrational about Harry, but not stupid). Well said. :D

It´s really strange, there generally seem to be two driving forces behind everything Snape does: Hating Harry, and working for the good side. They do clash oddly at times, and it´s hard to work out which of his actions are due to which motivation. But on the whole it still works, he can still do both things simultaneously.

I´m waiting for the moment – and I´m sure it will come ere the end - where he has to make a choice between the two, and I believe this is the moment where Snape will literally outgrow and redeem himself. :)

Tiger Louie

07-05-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
I´m waiting for the moment – and I´m sure it will come ere the end - where he has to make a choice between the two, and I believe this is the moment where Snape will literally outgrow and redeem himself. :)

Or not... I think this choice is going to be crucial to the final outcome, and I think you are absolutely right that there will be a choice for Snape. Redemption could come with death for Snape :( sob.

It all boils down to choices again - Snapes past and future choices, and the one Harry will have to make!

I'd love to see a humanised Snape at the end, but you just can't imagine him sitting by a fireside with a pipe and slippers, and a Mrs Snape beside him, can you?

If you take away Snape's hatred of Harry, what would Snape have left?

Tiger

Lady Haleth

07-05-2003, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Tiger Louie
I'd love to see a humanised Snape at the end, but you just can't imagine him sitting by a fireside with a pipe and slippers, and a Mrs Snape beside him, can you?

Hmm, maybe Molly Weasley has a sister? Heheh.

(Haleth goes back to composing a petition for JKR, requesting that Severus Snape not die in books 6 or 7.)

Well, one can hope, can't one?

Seriphus

07-06-2003, 12:39 PM

:eek: Look at all the Snape discussion I've been missing.
I agree on being disappointed about the lack of insight into Snape, particularly after JKR saying there'd be quite a lot about him in the book.

Or not... I think this choice is going to be crucial to the final outcome, and I think you are absolutely right that there will be a choice for Snape. Redemption could come with death for Snape Snape's already been confronted with a situation where he's had to make a choice with protecting Harry from Quirrell. After choosing to protect Harry despite his hatred of him he didn't have any sort of glorius redemption, he just got on with hating Harry. I don't think he'll get a full redemption, I don't think he will have a Boromir-style death scene. His actions are too subtle. He does his bit and then goes back to his usual ways. I do think he will be dead by the end of book 7 and I don't think he'll ever be anything more than tolerant of Harry. JKR's comment about us thinking too nicely of him makes me believe that we'll never see a substantial change in his personality.
Anyway, why does Snape need a redemption at all? Just by risking his life to leave the DEs and join the Order he has redeemed himself. I can't imagine that he needs to prove himself anymore, particularly as far as Dumbledore's concerned. The only thing he needs redemption from, in terms how he is seen by a large percentage of readers, is his attitude towards Harry.

So fans of the Snape-vampire theory (Colli, especially) do you still think he is one/half-one after seeing a few childhood memories and a man and women who appear to be his parents? I've only just finished my first reading, but I didn't pick up any more 'clues' to support the theory.

Serphy

Pippin

07-07-2003, 12:05 PM

Uh oh, I caused some confusion there, I think!

But first: Hi Serphy, and welcome back to Snapedom! :)

Posted by Tiger Louie
Redemption could come with death for Snape Yes, I wasn´t being very clear, but that´s the only kind (rather: moment) of redemption I think likely in his case.

If you take away Snape's hatred of Harry, what would Snape have left? It depends on his role in the “second war” and how the end works out. He could be a publicly acclaimed hero in the end. Whether he´s the type to live to enjoy that is another question.

Maybe he doesn´t care? To me, he really seems to be the sort of guy that "does his bit and then goes back to his usual ways”, as Serphy says.

by Serphy
Snape's already been confronted with a situation where he's had to make a choice with protecting Harry from Quirrell. After choosing to protect Harry despite his hatred of him he didn't have any sort of glorius redemption, he just got on with hating Harry. No, saving him from Quirrell is, for me, an example of “being good” and “hating Harry” at the same time, a case where both things go together. Remember Snape´s position in the wizarding world depends entirely on Dumbledore, so he knows his limits, he can´t have Harry killed. But he can have Harry bullied, he can even have him expelled (or so he thinks). He can certainly still hate him. So that´s the two things going along together.

Other choices of that sort that he made were going after Sirius, Lupin & the kids into the Shrieking Shack in PoA. Of course he did it to catch Sirius and take his revenge on him and Lupin, but he also did it to save Harry. Then, in OotP Snape prevents Umbridge giving Harry the Veritaserum (in order to protect Dumbledore and the Order, of course), and he goes to find the kids in the forest immediately after alerting the order to Harry´s vision. He doesn´t hesitate even for a moment to do the right thing on all those occasions. But he can still go hating Harry afterwards, it´s no contradicition for him.

What I´m waiting for is the moment when he can´t do both at the same time: The moment where his sense of duty/loyalty to the good cause and his hatred of Harry will clash so hard he´ll be just short of his hatred getting the better of him, to the cost of the good cause – and that´s where he´ll redeem himself by conquering his hatred.

I don´t have a more specific theory on this but I can come up with a hundred swoonworthy scenarios of that kind if you want me to. :D

I don't think he'll get a full redemption, I don't think he will have a Boromir-style death scene…. JKR's comment about us thinking too nicely of him makes me believe that we'll never see a substantial change in his personality. I don´t expect anything of that sort, either. Maybe I was using the word “redemption” wrongly, I don´t mean it like “people forgiving his mistakes” in a teary-cheesy way.

I don´t see a reconciliation between Harry and Snape, that´s just so out of character. My point was, whatever he´ll do will be so heroic in itself that there will be no need for words. Snape is a man of deeds, not of words. He hated niceties. To him, it matters what you do, not what you say.

Just like you said, Serphy, do the thing and walk away. Which would be both unusual in a story like this as well as incredibly cool. :cool:

Anyway, why does Snape need a redemption at all? … I can't imagine that he needs to prove himself anymore, particularly as far as Dumbledore's concerned. The only thing he needs redemption from, in terms how he is seen by a large percentage of readers, is his attitude towards Harry. He doesn´t have to prove his worth to anyone else. He needs it for himself. He´s the most unbalanced person I´ve ever seen, I want him to come to terms with himself first and foremost. If he gets that chance, I don´t care whether he comes to terms with the world around him, particularly with Harry, or whether he dies before that, or just shrugs and walks away.

Severus Snape

07-07-2003, 03:59 PM

http://home.nethere.net/dubhridir/Camilla/misunderstood.jpg

Seriphus

07-07-2003, 04:56 PM

No, saving him from Quirrell is, for me, an example of “being good” and “hating Harry” at the same time, a case where both things go together.

What I´m waiting for is the moment when he can´t do both at the same time: The moment where his sense of duty/loyalty to the good cause and his hatred of Harry will clash so hard he´ll be just short of his hatred getting the better of him, to the cost of the good cause – and that´s where he´ll redeem himself by conquering his hatred.
I see where your coming from, but I can't see where a clash that hard would occur except maybe if he had to sacrifice his life. (I think I do need to hear one of the swoonworthy scenarios :) ). He doesn´t have to prove his worth to anyone else. He needs it for himself. He´s the most unbalanced person I´ve ever seen, I want him to come to terms with himself first and foremost. Ah, I see what you mean. I see redemption as being for the benefit of others and what he needs is to be at peace with himself. I agree he needs to sort out his inner turmoil, release a few bottled up emotions. It would be very sad if that could only happen through his own death.

Tiger Louie

07-08-2003, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by Pippin
But he can have Harry bullied, he can even have him expelled (or so he thinks). He can certainly still hate him. So that´s the two things going along together.

You landed on another thing which has been niggling at me. Dumbledore will never allow Harry to be expelled from school - hey, he even sacrificed his position as headmaster this time to prevent it happening! Snape is always trying to get him expelled, and I think it's because while Harry is there under his nose he is not only reminded of his childhood suffering at James' and Sirius' hands, but also of his obligation to protect Harry, which he'd rather not have to do. If Harry wasn't there he could let 'bad things' happen to Harry and defend himself by saying "I didn't know it was happening"

Tiger

Pippin

07-08-2003, 11:02 AM

He´s just misunderstood. :D

Thanks for bringing that here, Sev!

by Serphy
I can't see where a clash that hard would occur except maybe if he had to sacrifice his life. That´s the kind of situation I meant. It´s ok for him to mutter counter-jinxes and send messages to Dumbledore and take a stroll in the Forbidden Forest in order to help Harry out of a life-threatening situation, but that´s not such a great effort or sacrifice on his part. The bigger the effort he´d have to take, the more difficult it will be to conquer his hatred of Harry and put the good cause above it. Sacrificing his life would be the biggest, well, sacrifice of all. There are probably other nasty things that could happen to him that will put his loyalty to the test, short of having himself killed.

I don´t have any particular idea up my sleeve, I don´t write fanfiction you know... but I can see which direction the story could be taking.

by Tiger
Snape is always trying to get him expelled, and I think it's because while Harry is there under his nose he is not only reminded of his childhood suffering at James' and Sirius' hands, but also of his obligation to protect Harry, which he'd rather not have to do. If Harry wasn't there he could let 'bad things' happen to Harry and defend himself by saying "I didn't know it was happening" Good observation, Tiger. I agree. He does what he has to do (what Dumbledore tells him, basically), but he always does it grudgingly.

Harry doesn´t need to be at Hogwarts to survive, he´s protected when he´s with the Dursley´s as well. What Snape doesn´t see though is that Harry won´t only have to survive, he´ll also need the practical and mental training to defeat Voldemort, which he can only get at Hogwarts. This will never happen just by sitting miserably in his bedroom in no. 4 Privet Drive.

Dumbledore understands this better. But then, maybe Snape doesn´t know the Prophecy, maybe he doesn´t know that ultimately it´s got to be Harry OR Voldemort, and that Harry´s the only one who can defeat him.

Come to think of it, just how many people knew what the Prophecy said? Everyone in the Order? Or just Dumbledore? And how many people know it now? Did Harry even tell Ron & Hermione about it?

(Sorry, I know this belongs in the Prophecy thread.)

Tiger, I also agree he´d rather not have to look at Harry at all - Snape frequently says this outright, he says "get out of my sight" more than once over the course of the years, and certainly means it quite literally.

Tiger Louie

07-08-2003, 05:42 PM

Pippin Snape frequently says this outright, he says "get out of my sight" more than once over the course of the years, and certainly means it quite literally

Good observation Pippin. People do often reflect their subconscious desires in their choice of words, don't they?

I also agree that it is unlikely that Dumbledore has been free with the detailed contents of the prophecy. If you want something to remain secret, you don't tell it to people. I am sure for all Dumbledore's fallibility, he's not made this mistake. I am sure that others know that there is a prophecy, and that it is important to keep the death eaters away from it, however.

Tiger

Colli

07-09-2003, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Seriphus
So fans of the Snape-vampire theory (Colli, especially) do you still think he is one/half-one after seeing a few childhood memories and a man and women who appear to be his parents? I've only just finished my first reading, but I didn't pick up any more 'clues' to support the theory.

::cries:: I was highly disappointed by the lack of clues. And Eru knows I was watching for them. Ah well, he'll always be a vampire in my heart.

I was gone for over a week.. I can't really reply to what you all have been saying, but I'm thoroughly enjoying the conversation. There's no better topic!

Anyway, I was thinking about our dear Potions Master, and am I the only one who no longer finds this scene funny?
"Mr Moony presents his compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business."

Snape froze...

"Mr Prongs agrees with Mr Moony and would like to add that Professor Snape is an ugly git."

...

"Mr Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a professor."

...

"Mr Wormtail bids Professor Snape good day, and advises him to wash his hair, the slimeball."

:mad: It's lost all of its humor.

Pippin

07-09-2003, 06:33 AM

Oh Colli, yes! :(

I used to love that scene, it was so funny - but the fun of it was based on the assumption that they all disliked each other on an equal footing, wasn´t it?

It will of course still be the same for the new readers, still funny at that time... but yes, the revelations in OotP do make everything the Marauders say and do appear in a different light.

Like this "explanation" Lupin gives Harry & co. in the Shrieking Shack, which isn´t an "explanation" at all:

"We were in the same year, you know, and we - er - didn´t like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch pitch... anyway... "

I mean, this is just so obviously evasive! I remember we discussed this before OotP, whether Quidditch rivalry was a strong enough motivation for Snape to dislike James and Harry so much, and it didn´t seem convincing... but we always thought it was Snape´s fault, that he was over-reacting extremely. Well, he wasn´t! He´s a supreme over-reactor now but that´s only because he became so bitter...

Along the same lines: Doesn´t Dumbledore, at the end of HP PS when he explains to Harry that it was actually Snape that saved him, say something like "your father and Snape didn´t like each other - much like you and Draco Malfoy" - and now we know the whole truth, I realise I´ve always misread this comment as James = Harry and Snape = Draco, while it was really James = Draco and Snape = Harry. Very disturbing, and no doubt, on JKR´s part, entirely intentional.

I thought the vampire thing was a little far-fetched anyway. The sort of thing that people come up with when JKR keeps them waiting too long for any real news. :p The stuff fanfiction is made of.

by Tiger
People do often reflect their subconscious desires in their choice of words, don't they? Yes. It could be HIGHLY revealing to look at a few more Snape lines in the light of this idea. :D

Seriphus

07-09-2003, 09:35 AM

Come to think of it, just how many people knew what the Prophecy said? Everyone in the Order? Or just Dumbledore? And how many people know it now? Did Harry even tell Ron & Hermione about it? Hmm, good point. I'd guess from his attitude towards Harry's education that Snape doesn't know.::cries:: I was highly disappointed by the lack of clues. And Eru knows I was watching for them. Ah well, he'll always be a vampire in my heart. :LOL: I was disappointed by the lack of anything substantial about him after the promise we'd find out loads. From a neither for or against position on the vampire theory, I'm now wavering more towards the latter.
Anyway, I was thinking about our dear Potions Master, and am I the only one who no longer finds this scene funny? I never found it funny in the first place (poor Snape :( ), but now it makes me feel angry at the Marauders, well two of them- I wonder how much of a part Remus and Pettigrew actually played in making the map. Mr Moony's comment is the least offensive and still uncannilly polite.

With Snape having been my favourite character from book one, I read PoA trying to see things from his perspective. And in that book it seemed clear to me that Sirius was as much to blame as Snape was himself in their altercations. As much as I love Sirius he does come across as having been a little s**t in his school days. Therefore, I didn't assume that James was totally innocent in all this, but I was still surprised at how nasty he actually was.
However, from what JKR has hinted about us liking Snape too much, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he wasn't just the innocent little victim either.

Lady Haleth

07-09-2003, 10:20 AM

I started rereading The Prisoner of Azkaban and will reread GoF to look at the Marauders/Snape relationship from a different point of view. It was very telling to read of Snape's reaction when he first saw Harry and Lupin in private conversation. The door opened, and in came Snape. He was carrying a goblet, which was smoking faintly, and stopped at the sight of Harry, his black eyes narrowing.
Without knowing the history you would think that this reaction was because of his dislike for Harry, but in reality he was having a flashback to James and Lupin whispering in secret. And the worse humiliation was that the goblet carried the werewolf potion, which he had to concoct for Lupin at Dumbledore's request. No wonder the man is so full of competing emotions.

Pippin

07-09-2003, 01:11 PM

Just for your information, I just got my hands on the HP PS DVD this afternoon and for the first time EVER watched the extended Potions class scene.

So if you´ll excuse me for a moment. :D

:swoon: :swoon: :swoon:

Ahem. :o

Does the CoS DVD have extended scenes with more Snape, too?

by Serphy
I'd guess from his attitude towards Harry's education that Snape doesn't know (about the Prophecy). Or he does, but this is a reaction where he´s getting dangerously close to making a wrong choice between hating Harry and serving the good cause! I think it´s a pity we didn´t see Dumbledore telling Snape off once he heard that he´d cancelled the lessons, because I´m sure he did, big time.

(I´ve just realised that you probably didn´t mean the Occlumency lessons by "Harry´s education", but his attitude towards Harry in general. Sorry I´m slow!)

by Serphy
I was disappointed by the lack of anything substantial about him after the promise we'd find out loads. Now that´s a little unfair. We found out a lot about his relationship with the Marauders. What we definitely didn´t find out was his past and his current relationship with Voldemort and the DE.

by Serphy
I didn't assume that James was totally innocent in all this, but I was still surprised at how nasty he actually was. Me too. From Harry´s POV, I used to put most of the blame on Sirius, too, but it really seems James was not much better. Maybe he was less reckless than Sirius (dragging Snape back before he got himself bitten or killed) but no less mean. After all he´s doing all the active bullying and jinxing in the "worst memory".

However, from what JKR has hinted about us liking Snape too much, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he wasn't just the innocent little victim either. Well, I´m prepared to find out that he wasn´t just an innocent little victim when he was a DE, but he could have been at school - driven to join the DE because he´d never got any power and recognition before that, and taking his revenge on the world in the process.

Great scene you mentioned there, Lady H. It must have cost him so much to be polite and helpful towards Lupin all year during PoA. :eek:

StarGazr

07-09-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Just for your information, I just got my hands on the HP PS DVD this afternoon and for the first time EVER watched the extended Potions class scene.

So if you´ll excuse me for a moment. :D

:swoon: :swoon: :swoon:

Ahem. :o

Does the CoS DVD have extended scenes with more Snape, too?

:swoon: Love the extra potions scene too.... *sigh* alas, there are no deleted scenes with Snape in CoS... I think you see his back at one point... but that cuz the scene leads into a scene with him.. or something like this :p

swiftsnowmane

07-09-2003, 01:50 PM

While I'm not defending James actions in the Pensieve memory, I do think that Snape's worst memory happened before the werewolf incident. Snape's memory seems like the "low point" for James (hence the worst memory). While Sirius may not have changed at all after that towards Snape, I would like to think that James at least showed his truest colors when he later saved Snape (even though it was after tricking him), rather than when he was cruel towards him. (A girl can hope:o )
Part of my problem with the whole thing, is that because of ONE scene (of SNAPE's memory no less), everyone thinks horibbly of James and Sirius. But we never get to see one of THEIR memories in a pensieve. :p
I guess I have just always really been touched by the whole "harry sees his father in himself" thing. I dunno....never mind. This is a Snape thread so just ignore this Marauder-lover's ramnblings.:(

Lady Haleth

07-09-2003, 03:11 PM

I don't think it's a matter of thinking horribly of James and Sirius, it's more that we were shocked, just as Harry was, in seeing that these two icons of wizardry were not as perfect as we had imagined them to be. Sure, we had been told that they were mischief makers, but torturing another student, no matter what their excuse, was more than good, clean fun. We didn't know they had it in them to be cruel.

Tiger Louie

07-09-2003, 04:10 PM

The whole 'Snivellus' episode shows us that it's not only Snapes underpants which are grey - nothing's quite as clear-cut as we might have thought before. Yes, Snape is irrational in his reactions to Harry and the Marauders, but now we have to pause and see that it's not wholly his fault. We can't conclusively say that it's wholly James and Sirius at fault.

The person who comes out worst is Sirius - it was him saying he was bored that triggers the whole thing. The person who thinks least of themselves about it appears to be Lupin, but then he already feels a burden of guilt for effectively betraying Dumbledore's trust while at school, and feels responsible for the others becoming unregistered animagi.

It remains to be seen whether JKR will redress the balance in HP6 or 7 so that we perhaps understand why they pick on Snape. They bully him - but we also learn from other bystanders' reactions that none of them liked Snape. Why is that? Lily doesn't like him either, but she clearly had a sense of natural justice which this treatment of Snape had breached.

Tiger

Seriphus

07-09-2003, 04:40 PM

but we also learn from other bystanders' reactions that none of them liked Snape. Why is that? Yeah, you're right. That's why I think we may find out that Snape was just as nasty. Then again he was obsessed with the dark arts so maybe he just unfairly gained a bad reputation through that.While Sirius may not have changed at all after that towards Snape, I would like to think that James at least showed his truest colors when he later saved Snape (even though it was after tricking him), rather than when he was cruel towards him. I think that may have been James' turning point, when he realised he and Sirius had gone too far. That would give him a year to redeem himself to Lily, as presumably they were going out when they were head boy and head girl together. (And there's nothing wrong with Marauder-lover's ramblings ;) ). The whole 'Snivellus' episode shows us that it's not only Snapes underpants which are grey :LOL:

Pippin

07-10-2003, 02:51 PM

Stargazr, thanks for the info on the CoS DVD! :) I´m not in a hurry to get it then. I mean Lucius Malfoy was brilliant, but he just, well, stole the show!

Posted by swiftsnowmane
While I'm not defending James actions in the Pensieve memory, I do think that Snape's worst memory happened before the werewolf incident. Snape's memory seems like the "low point" for James (hence the worst memory). While Sirius may not have changed at all after that towards Snape, I would like to think that James at least showed his truest colors when he later saved Snape (even though it was after tricking him), rather than when he was cruel towards him.
I agree, it´s more plausible that the werewolf incident was the last big event in the Snape-Marauders relationship. They only learned how to be animagi in the fifth year anyway (the year of the memory). The “memory” might have been the worst part of it for Snape personally, but the werewolf thing was definitely the most dangerous. Maybe Dumbledore brought the Marauders back to their senses a little when he heard of it.

I do get the impression that James, while starting out just as “bad” as Sirius, did more growing up, on the whole. Maybe it was his relationship with Lily, and having a family, that calmed him down a bit.

Posted by Tiger Louie
Snape is irrational in his reactions to Harry and the Marauders, but now we have to pause and see that it's not wholly his fault. We can't conclusively say that it's wholly James and Sirius at fault. No, we probably still haven´t got the whole picture yet. I was a bit rash when I wrote above that we now “know everything”.
For example, in the “memory”, Snape is this loner, the odd kid with no friends. But somewhere in either PoA or GoF, Sirius mentions “his gang of Slytherins” – so what about that? Maybe he did get a “gang” going, or joined it, later on to take revenge or something?

It remains to be seen whether JKR will redress the balance in HP6 or 7 so that we perhaps understand why they pick on Snape. They bully him - but we also learn from other bystanders' reactions that none of them liked Snape. Why is that? Well, it´s not hard for schoolkids to pick on a certain person just because they´re *different*, odd. Kids need no more specific reason than that, they can be pretty cruel about that! The fact that he didn´t care about a clean outward appearance, that he didn´t have or want friends, and the fact – like Serphy says - that he was into the Dark Arts were easily sufficient reason.

As James says, it´s “the fact that he exists”, or more specifically, “the fact that he´s what he´s like”. I don´t think there had to be a deeper reason than that, to start with.

Oh, and another thing – I think I have again abandoned my belief that we learn in OotP that Snape REALLY wanted the DADA job. I mean, looking through the references to it in books 1 – 4, it still strikes me as much too obvious to be taken at face value! Maybe he wanted the job in the first place, but if he´s been putting up a disguise over all these years that would allow him to make the DE believe that he´s always been secretly on their side, this piece of information would fit in nicely. And it wouldn´t be the first time Dumbledore has encouraged rumours, if they served his purposes!

Look at *why* Snape was particularly unfriendly to all the previous DADA teachers: He suspected (and later knew) Quirell to be up to something concerning the stone. Lockheart was a complete git that nobody liked (Snape is doesn´t make a secret of his dislike there but he never does). Lupin was one of Snape´s personal enemies from back at school. And “Moody” was bound to make Snape feel uneasy about his DE past. And Umbridge is, well, The Enemy.

What I´m trying to say is that he had more than one good reason to dislike them all that had *nothing* to do with the subject they taught.

So maybe he didn´t want the job after all, at least not as badly as everyone thinks. Look not only at *what* he´s saying, but *who* he´s saying it to: He´s liked to Umbridge on other occasions when the good cause required it, he could have lied about this as well. It might be part of the disguise.

Lembas

07-10-2003, 05:55 PM

After having read all the scenarios above and the excellent thoughts, I thought I'd pipe in with some of my own.

It's been mentioned that it seems that Harry and Snape are starting to have somewhat of a respect for each other, albeit a begrudging respect. I concur with that. Even if Harry does something to totally make Snape respect him, I don't think Snape will bend over backwards and hug him or slap him on the back! :barf:

I can see a scenario where Snape might be in mortal danger from Voldemort and Harry will be forced to save the one teacher he hates the most. Wouldn't it be interesting if the final battle between Harry and Voldemort begins right after Harry saves Snape? And even if Voldemort is vanquished by Harry, what if Harry becomes seriously wounded and Snape, in return, is forced to carry him back to Madame Pomfrey to save his life?

I don't know. I just know that I love the theme of redemption. But I agree that anything too syrupy would be out of character for Snape. Have them end up begrudgingly respect each other and go their seperate ways, not hating each other. I could live with that.

Colli

07-10-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Lembas
I can see a scenario where Snape might be in mortal danger from Voldemort and Harry will be forced to save the one teacher he hates the most. Wouldn't it be interesting if the final battle between Harry and Voldemort begins right after Harry saves Snape? And even if Voldemort is vanquished by Harry, what if Harry becomes seriously wounded and Snape, in return, is forced to carry him back to Madame Pomfrey to save his life?
:clap: Amen! :D I've been saying this for ages... except I'd much rather see Harry die from it and Snape once again be endebted... causing Rowling to write 7 more fabulous books. :D "Severus Snape and ....."

Seriphus

07-11-2003, 11:34 AM

Oh, and another thing – I think I have again abandoned my belief that we learn in OotP that Snape REALLY wanted the DADA job. I agree. I was, well...disappointed, I guess to find out that he had applied for the DADA job every year. I don't think he really wants it. This is one of my favourite quotes. From this I really can't believe that he's truly after the DADA job:

'As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the soft simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of the liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses... I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death...' (PS/SS, chpt 8, The Potions Master)

And you're right. What better way to convince the DEs he's still a 'dark wizard'.

And talking of dark wizards...
Sirius talking about Snapes gang:

'...Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was,' Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. 'Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.'
Sirius held up his fingers, and began ticking off names. 'Rosier and Wilkes- they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges - they're a married couple - they're in Azkaban. Avery - from what I've heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he'd been acting under the imperious curse - he's still at large. But as far as I know, Snape was never accused of being a Death Eater - not that that means much...' (GoF, chpt 27, Padfoot Returns)

Sound like a nice bunch. :rolleyes: I don't want to comment on whether they were friends like the marauders or friends like Draco & chums, we just don't know from this quote. But I think it's interesting that Snape, apparently, wasn't widely known to have been a DE (and I realise that Sirius was cut off from the world in Azkaban). It makes it more plausible that he's still spying for the order, despite the fact that Voldy's baying for his blood.

wilecoyote

07-11-2003, 12:21 PM

1st i haven't read the whole thread yet, but i couldn't wait to add my $.02

I have not and still DO NOT TRUST SEVERUS SNAPE

Everyone beleives that since D trusts him he's ok, but there are some things I have seen throughout the series that make me wonder.

Respect for Dumbledore?
In PoA, Snape gets very angry at D, for trusting Lupin, and even angrier at him for believing Sirius might innocent. His reaction to D shows smoldering long lived anger not respect. I get the feeling that Snape respects/fears D's abilities, not the man himself.

Dumbledore trust Snape?
D says he has his reasons for trusting Snape, but perhaps he just wants to make Snape think he's trusted. Let me pose a question/theory:
If you knew that someone was sent as an double agent (i like that term too), wouldn't you be likely to keep them close by and use them to get information you want.
I think knows D knows Snape is still working for V. V would have wanted a spy at Hogwarts.

Occlumancy lessions?
As for the Occlumancy, even though Snape kept telling Harry to control his emotions, he also keep pushing him and purposely making him angry. Now I realize that D picked Snape, because he was worried about teaching Harry himself, but he had know that Harry's dislike of Snape would make it more difficult for Harry learn. Of course that may have been part of D's reason too. If Harry could master his anger with Snape, he would be better prepared for V.

Snapes Memories?
I think the pensive may have been D's idea. He knows there are things in Snapes past that even Harry shouldn't know. JKR made a big production about the worst memory, but that was more to give us some insite about the young James.
But as far as Snape and Lily, just why was Snape out by lake that day. And what was he looking at. I think he was there to watch Lily. And I think James, who obviously was trying to show off as young boys often do, knew that Snape liked Lily and that's one of the reasons he picked on him.
But what interested me more and I think tells the most about Snape, is not the memory he wanted to hide, but the ones he did not realize were there. I think his memories of his early childhood are much more telling of why he's like he is. Obviously he came from an abusive home. We see this in his father towering over a his mother (Harry thought it was his parents arguing, but I don't think so). Then we see him by himself and think he was shooting spells at bugs in his room or something. And Lupin said Snape knew more dark spells when he started at Hogwarts than most. I think he had lots of practice.
All of which helped make Snape into an angry and I think sadistic person.
Snape doesn't pick on Harry and Neville for show. He seems to truely enjoy it. He reminds of a man I used to work for in a bookstore, who would yell at cashiers just to make them cry. There is something fundamentally bad in his character. I said in another thread that Sirius if he had not hooked up with James and Lupin would have been a bad guy, not a Deatheater, but not a nice guy. I think even if some goodheated folks had tried to befriend Snape he would not have trusted them and would still be a truly bad guy.

Also, V knows who has turned on him. He says so at the end of GoF and he planned to take care of both of them. Speculations on the forum at the time was that he reffered to Karkoroff and Snape. If it was Snape he was talking about, wouldn't he have warned his favorite Deatheaters. Seems Lucious would have been told. (Lucious in Azakaban:D ).
And I don't think Snape particularly likes Draco, but want's keep in good with Lucious. Although I do think he gets some enjoyment out of Draco bullying Harry.

If Snape has actually turned against V (which I doubt), it is probably because of something D has on him. I just cannot think of any other reason.

Ok I'm through for now. I'll read the reast of the thread, but I wanted to get my original thoughts down before I lost them.
I wonder where I could get a remberall?:p

____________________________________________
Edit (still reading thread)
From lizz
How can he be in high regards of Death eaters when he doesnt show up there. Has he convinced them he is spy on dumbledore and cant show up at meetings not to give away his true loyalty?

That is a good point. Although I see it a little differently. If he is a spy for Voldermort, than he was not one of two missing that V wants revenge on. There have been many assumptions that it was Snape as I mentioned above.

I used to love that scene, it was so funny - but the fun of it was based on the assumption that they all disliked each other on an equal footing, wasn´t it?

I still think it is one of the funniest parts of PoA. Everyone is feel so sorry for Snape. Yes I feel bad that he was humiliated like that, but that is just one memory of one incident with the Mauraders. Somehow I think Snape got in his hits as well. I mean come on it's Snape. I'm saying what James did was alright, but I've been caught too many times since SS, reading too much into what JKR has written that I'm not ready to take assume that Snape is the poor victim of the bullying Mauraders. And remember JKR has warned us not too feel sad for Snape.
One more thing for now and than I better get back to work. In the Albert Hall interview when talking about the name Snape, JKR mentions snake. And I am reminded of the ending of one of my favorite tales. About a person who nursing an ailing snake back to health and the snake later fatally bites them and says: "you knew I was a snake when you picked me up"

I hope that doesn't happen to Dumbledore. :(

lizz

07-11-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by wilecoyote
In the Albert Hall interview when talking about the name Snape, JKR mentions snake. And I am reminded of the ending of one of my favorite tales. About a person who nursing an ailing snake back to health and the snake later fatally bites them and says: "you knew I was a snake when you picked me up"

I hope that doesn't happen to Dumbledore. :( [/B]

Thats an interessting thought and quote scary :eek:

Lady Haleth

07-11-2003, 05:44 PM

...and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters...But as far as I know, Snape was never accused of being a Death Eater - not that that means much...'
Sounds as if Snape was a tagalong with the Slytherin elite, but was never accepted by them either, since he (apparently?) didn't become a known DE. Poor guy, nobody wanted him.

wilecoyote

07-11-2003, 08:49 PM

i was just listening to snapes memory and was wondering something. when harry was in dumbledores memories the only conversations he heard were what d heard. since it was his memory that would make since. my theory of memory is that we take in everything around us whether realize it conscously or not.

what i noticed this time is that snape left the exam room before james et al, but did not go outside until after they did. i also noticed that harry was able to listen to what james et al were talking about. he noticed all the things that james was doing and it was not until sirius noticed snape that snape steps out from behind a tree and walks away. then before james can hex him, snape turns around. it's like snape was intentionally following them and listening in on what was going on, almost like he was hoping or at least knew that if they saw him what would happen.

i remember in PoA sirius' reason for almost getting snape killed was that snape was always following them around spying on them. i think snape knew he would be attacked when they saw him, but he thought he could beat james. of course he didn't have a chance because of sirius had to get in on it, but i'm starting to think that his dislike or jealously of james may have prompted him to bait james.

and to take things even a step further. i beleive he knew lily would stand up for him if james did get the better of him. i don't think he expected to get so humilated. and i think it's was more his embarassment not only over everyone getting a peek at his dingy undies, but that lily almost laughed too, and than came to his rescue. i'm not sure if he saw her almost laugh, but often some guys don't care to be rescued by the girl. it's one thing to get her attention and sympathy, but a rescue. i think that's why he called her a mudblood. it was probably the worst thing he could think to say. (can't believe i'm standing up for him on this)

i do think that he was spying on them and sirius' boredom is what brought him to their attention. it doesn't excuse what james did, but i also noticed that when snape did attack james, he brought blood. james and sirius were just being bullies, snape was going for some serious damage.

back to book

~Lady Evenstar~

07-12-2003, 02:44 AM

I'm not too sure about Snape not a DE. He has the mark, and I Voldemort did notice who was there and who wasn't. My opinion is that Snape was the one that left forever and of course, must be killed.

Snape is totally cool. Everyone gives him a hard time, but I think he'd be next in line after Voldemort in power.

Pippin

07-12-2003, 09:59 AM

Posted by Lembas
I can see a scenario where Snape might be in mortal danger from Voldemort and Harry will be forced to save the one teacher he hates the most. Wouldn't it be interesting if the final battle between Harry and Voldemort begins right after Harry saves Snape? And even if Voldemort is vanquished by Harry, what if Harry becomes seriously wounded and Snape, in return, is forced to carry him back to Madame Pomfrey to save his life? That´s a good scenario. Yes, that´s the sort of thing I´d picture, too – it would be such an interesting psychological experiment to put the life of one of them into the hands of the other (respectively) and see how they react! :D

Posted by Colli
I'd much rather see Harry die from it and Snape once again be endebted... causing Rowling to write 7 more fabulous books. "Severus Snape and ....." We can always hope… :D Somehow, I´d like to see Harry indebted to Snape even more, you know.

Thanks for bringing Snape´s “Potions credo” here, Serphy! I can´t see how he exactly *despises* “wand waving” types of magic, I mean he must have had his share of practice in that, particularly in the Dark Arts field. But maybe he´s just had enough. Maybe he made a deal with Dumbledore that if he *had* to become a teacher, at least he should be allowed to teach Potions, his favourite subject.

Come to think of it, the type of magic he´s fascinated with really isn´t much about wand-waving. You know the “potions riddle” in HP PS, where Hermione has to figure out which potion Harry must drink – that´s not magic, that´s pure logic. Occlumency and Legilimency don´t have much to do with wand-waving, either. They´re about the strength of your mind.

Sirius in GoF, as quoted by Serphy:

'Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.'
…
But as far as I know, Snape was never accused of being a Death Eater - not that that means much...' (GoF, chpt 27, Padfoot Returns) I´m guessing that Snape used to be a loner for most of his school years, as shown in the “worst memory”. The “gang” possibly came afterwards. Maybe he was even sort of “forced” to join it if he wanted any protection from the bullying. But he was probably never the centre of it, that´s true.

I think it's interesting that Snape, apparently, wasn't widely known to have been a DE … It makes it more plausible that he's still spying for the order, despite the fact that Voldy's baying for his blood. I do wonder. I mean, Sirius’s comment „not that it means much not to have been accused” doesn´t have to mean people didn´t know. It could also mean that he talked his way out of it (as Lucius Malfoy and several other DE that never went to Azkaban apparently did), or that Dumbledore was holding his hand over him somehow.

I mean, I think that the DE (in spite of their masks and all) know very well who belongs with them and who doesn’t, so they must know that Snape (at least outwardly) changed sides. Remember, Crouch jr. in GoF for example knew very well about Snape´s past (“there are spots that never come off”).

Welcome to the Snape thread, Wile! Interesting ideas… and thanks for alerting the romantic dreamers among us to some worrying evidence… ;)

D says he has his reasons for trusting Snape, but perhaps he just wants to make Snape think he's trusted. Let me pose a question/theory:
If you knew that someone was sent as an double agent (i like that term too), wouldn't you be likely to keep them close by and use them to get information you want.
I think D knows Snape is still working for V. V would have wanted a spy at Hogwarts. But how does this go together with Snape saving Harry´s life and trying to foil Quirrel’s schemes in HP PS? Unless you´re suggesting that Snape and Quirrel staged all that to fool Dumbledore, it is good evidence which side he´s on.

But what interested me more and I think tells the most about Snape, is not the memory he wanted to hide, but the ones he did not realize were there. I think his memories of his early childhood are much more telling of why he's like he is.
…
All of which helped make Snape into an angry and I think sadistic person.
Snape doesn't pick on Harry and Neville for show. He seems to truely enjoy it.
…
There is something fundamentally bad in his character. Bad maybe, or mean, but not evil. It´s hard to understand but I think an essential part of being Snape is that you can work against Voldemort and make people´s lives a misery at the same time. It´s just no contradiction for him. One thing is the greater aim he´s working for, and another thing is taking his personal revenge for all his childhood/school years traumatisation. The big question of course is, why would such a bitter person *not* want Voldemort to take over, if it would maybe even give him more power for making other people´s lives miserable? I just don´t know.

Maybe because being mean to people does not necessarily prove that you´ve always had it in you to do that. I wonder, do you think Snape is actually able to produce a Cruciatus Curse? It would be very revealing if we´d find out about that. You´ve got to enjoy using it on people… “righteous anger” isn’t enough.

In PoA, Snape gets very angry at D, for trusting Lupin, and even angrier at him for believing Sirius might innocent. His reaction to D shows smoldering long lived anger not respect. I get the feeling that Snape respects/fears D's abilities, not the man himself. Hm. I don´t think so. I think Snape is always fighting an extreme inner battle against his own emotions. His dislike for Lupin and Sirius was of an extremely personal nature and has nothing to do with the “good cause” or which side he´s on. And he´s having a hard time to put the “good cause” above his own emotions, at least in situation when they seem to clash. The fact that he wouldn´t mind seeing Lupin and Sirius dead doesn´t mean he isn´t on the good side.
He has all these grudges, against the Marauders, against Harry, against people that are weak (like Neville - reminds him of his childhood self, I suppose), against people that are popular (jealousy), against everyone threatening to undermine his authority as a teacher, which is basically all he´s got left to base some self-esteem on.

And these grudges always do and will continue to get in his way. But it doesn´t mean he´ll ultimately be unable to get over them.

james and sirius were just being bullies, snape was going for some serious damage. No. Snape was going for physical injury, which wouldn´t have been, at school and in bright daylight, anything that Madam Pomfrey couldn´t cure within a minute. James and Sirius we going for some serious *emotional* damage, which is something neither spells nor potions can cure. :( Unfortunately the bullies never understand that. :mad:

If Snape has actually turned against V (which I doubt), it is probably because of something D has on him. I just cannot think of any other reason. Like he was pressured to change sides? Like Dumbledore knew he was a DE and said, hey, either you get your miserable life back and be our spy and afterwards come to teach at Hogwarts where I can keep an eye on you, or you´re going straight to Azkaban?
Why should he? Why should he offer this to Snape and not to the numerous other DE that did go to Azkaban? Why Snape?

And remember JKR has warned us not too feel sad for Snape. Not exactly. She said to keep our eyes on him, not to feel too comfortable about him.

Well, as for NOW, I still stand by Dumbledore in my trust in Snape. As for the future, I´m not so sure. Maybe that´s what JKR was warning us about, that we shouldn´t be too sure he won´t at least be *tempted* to change sides again at some point. Somehow I don´t believe that he´s been secretly working against Dumbledore for fourteen years, but I can picture him being severely tempted to change sides again if there was any advantage in it for him. Not pressured, surely – but tempted, yes.

There has been the theory that Snape never was a DE in the first place. Well, he was officially, with the dark mark and everything, but I´ve heard the theory that he joined them with the full intention of secretly working for the good side, right from the start, and undermine them from within.

What do you people think of that? Likely or unlikely?

~Lady Evenstar~

07-12-2003, 05:44 PM

JKR said that about Snape? Really? My guess is just because of his emotions. He wouldn't betray anyone.

I'm still wanting to see him kick some serious butt!

Moxie

07-13-2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Pippin
There has been the theory that Snape... joined them with the full intention of secretly working for the good side, right from the start, and undermine them from within.

What do you people think of that? Likely or unlikely?

Voldemort likely tests applicants to weed out agents of this sort, and he's said to be particularly skilled at Legilimency. For this theory to work, Snape would have needed sufficient skill at Occlumency to fool Voldemort - he's likely capable of it now, but given that Snape must have joined the DEs fresh out of Hogwarts (or even while still a student?) I doubt he was already that good at Occlumency (though he may very well already have been studying mind-magic). Therefore, I suspect that Snape was a genuine Death Eater who discovered after the fact that he still had a conscience, rather than a double agent from the start (though good fanfic has been based on the latter premise ;))

Seriphus

07-13-2003, 12:40 PM

Hi, wilecoyote. Welcome to Snape discussion. It's nice to hear your angle on Snape. However, I disagree on Snape still working for Voldy...
If Snape has actually turned against V (which I doubt), it is probably because of something D has on him. I just cannot think of any other reason. Of course there are reasons why some one may change sides. Maybe Voldy killed some one he cared about, maybe he was ordered to do or did something that he couldn't justify to himself, maybe the things he witnessed as a DE made him realise the reality of the Dark Arts - that in practice Dark Arts are a whole different ball game to learning hexes from books. There is no rule that says a person cannot re-evaluate their moral code at any time.Speculations on the forum at the time was that he reffered to Karkoroff and Snape. If it was Snape he was talking about, wouldn't he have warned his favorite Deatheaters. Yes he may well have done, but is Lucius Malfoy really one of his favourite Death Eaters?
Or maybe he thought that if he didn't tell them then Snape might be tempted back to the fold as a spy where it would be easier to kill him. I think it must be Snape that he was talking about unless we have already come across some else that it could be in the books. It doesn't seem to be JKR's style to say 'Oh by the way it wasn't Snape' without having given us clues beforehand. Of course the clues may be there and I've missed them. :p The big question of course is, why would such a bitter person *not* want Voldemort to take over, if it would maybe even give him more power for making other people´s lives miserable? I just don´t know. A good question. My view is that Snape has realised that Voldy only cares about number one, that he's not in it to give power to his followers, only to himself. And if he needed proof of that after he left, he need look no further than Voldy's treatment of Quirrell.

My belief that Snape is not working for Voldy comes from various places. Firstly, I think Dumbledore's trust is genuine particularly when he compares his trust for Snape and Sirius:

'He is here at my invitation,' said Dumbledore, looking between them, 'as are you, Severus. I trust you both.'(Gof, chpt 36, The Parting of the Ways)

Secondly, I don't think JKR meant to watch Snape because he's going to go back to Voldy. I think she just meant don't expect him to fall in love, adopt Harry and start rescuing abandoned kittens... :rolleyes: remember she said this as well:

Q. Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape?
A. Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban.

And thirdly because of this:

Snape strode forward, past Dumbledore, pulling up the left sleeve of his robes as he went. He stuck out his forearm, and showed it to Fudge, who recoiled.
'There,' said Snape harshly.(Gof, chpt 36, The Parting of the Ways)

IMO, his finest moment. :: swoon :: Would some one who was in league with Voldemort do this? Would some one who was going to go running back to Voldemort do this? He was trying to persuade Fudge that Voldemort needed to be dealt with straight away to be in with a greater chance of stopping him. That was an act for the good side that must have taken some courage, especially considering who it was in front of.
I do wonder. I mean, Sirius’s comment „not that it means much not to have been accused” doesn´t have to mean people didn´t know. It could also mean that he talked his way out of it (as Lucius Malfoy and several other DE that never went to Azkaban apparently did), or that Dumbledore was holding his hand over him somehow. But I think the difference between Snape and Malfoy is that it seems to be quite well known that Malfoy was accused (I'm a bit hazy on who's mentioned it to Harry, though so I may be barking up the wrong tree) whereas, while 'everyone' suspects Snape of having dealings with the Dark Arts in some form or another they don't mention that he's been accused of being a DE. There has been the theory that Snape... joined them with the full intention of secretly working for the good side, right from the start, and undermine them from within. It's possible I guess. I just don't see Snape as not having the tinted past. I fully believe he joined the DEs as a 'bad guy' in the beginning and then changed his mind.I can´t see how he exactly *despises* “wand waving” types of magic, I mean he must have had his share of practice in that, particularly in the Dark Arts field. I think his first choice of subject would probably have been DADA on first joining the school, but then I get the impression that potions won him over. It seems to appeal to his character, being a subtle form of magic (and hence the opposite to 'wand-waving').

Lembas

07-13-2003, 02:35 PM

Just from her hints, I'm sure JKR will give us the full rundown on Snape. He's just too rich a character for her not to give us a full picture of what drives him ( besides grudges ) and that will make for some great reading. I want to know why Dumbledore trusts him and I don't think it will be anything so simple as Dumbledore just "knowing people and trusting them." There should be a reason. Can't wait to see what it is. Snape, of all the characters, is the most complex for me, and that makes him very interesting. He's a shade of gray, and that always makes for great reading.

Dizzy Saysme

07-13-2003, 11:31 PM

I hate Snape!:p

Pippin

07-14-2003, 10:24 AM

Posted by Dizzy Saysme
I hate Snape! Well Dizzy, most of us in here obviously don´t. Stick around for a while and maybe we can convince you! :D

Posted by Moxie
I suspect that Snape was a genuine Death Eater who discovered after the fact that he still had a conscience, rather than a double agent from the start (though good fanfic has been based on the latter premise ) Good fanfic? That´s a rare thing. Where?

(Your own, by any chance? :D)

About the question whether people knew Snape was a DE:

I re-read the Pensieve court room scene in GoF and it puzzles me a little.

Karkaroff gives the court (or council) the names of several death eaters, including Snape, and there´s quite a reaction of surprise. However, Crouch sr. points out that Snape “has been cleared by this council. Dumbledore has vouched for him.” Which means that they did bring him to court, so at least the court knew. They´re a fairly big court by any standards, and although their hearings don´t seem to be open to the public, I doubt they could have kept this quiet.

Of course, we still don´t know what “cleared” means. Did Dumbledore convince them that Snape wasn’t a DE (unlikely, since it´d only take a look at his arm), or that he was, but he´d changed sides in time and was not to be punished for it?

Great thoughts again, Serphy! :)
Posted by Seriphus
Maybe Voldy killed some one he cared about, maybe he was ordered to do or did something that he couldn't justify to himself, maybe the things he witnessed as a DE made him realise the reality of the Dark Arts - that in practice Dark Arts are a whole different ball game to learning hexes from books. There is no rule that says a person cannot re-evaluate their moral code at any time. Oh, how I want to know!!! I hope it´s something as weighty as that, a huge u-turn in his conscience, a really, really big moral thing. But then, I also used to think that there was more behind Snape´s grudge towards James than schoolboy bullying, no matter how bad. :rolleyes:

Quoted by Serphy

Q. Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape?
A. Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban. :LOL: Well maybe that´s the reason why Snape left the DE? :D

As for the graveyard scene, and the DE that has left Voldemort forever and will be killed, it drives me crazy not to know for sure who that is. I´ll be extremely surprised if it isn´t Snape, but then, by the time we read this chapter for the first time, we didn´t know who the “faithful servant who is at Hogwarts” was, either. It could have been Snape. Only when we read on we learn it´s Crouch jr. But does that mean that Snape has to be the *other* one mentioned? On the other hand, Voldemort seems to know pretty well what the situation is. He mentions six DE missing, among them three dead in his service. He doesn´t mention those in Azkaban. All the others are present. Can we conclude from that that Voldemort´s comments cover each and every single DE? That Snape MUST be either the one that has left forever, or the one too cowardly to return (Karkaroff, more likely)?

Quoted by Serphy

'He is here at my invitation,' said Dumbledore, looking between them, 'as are you, Severus. I trust you both.'(Gof, chpt 36, The Parting of the Ways) It´s interesting how Dumbledore puts Sirius and Snape on the same level here. Which is probably something neither of them liked very much.

The end of GoF is really revealing about Snape, isn´t it? Much more than OotP… I remember when I first read GoF I jumped so much at Dumbledore´s “Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater”, it was like YESSSS!!! MORE COMPLEXITY!!! :D

Quoted by Serphy

Snape strode forward, past Dumbledore, pulling up the left sleeve of his robes as he went. He stuck out his forearm, and showed it to Fudge, who recoiled.
'There,' said Snape harshly.(Gof, chpt 36, The Parting of the Ways)

IMO, his finest moment. :: swoon :: Let me join you in this opinion. :: swoon ::

This scene is so infinitely cool, how he throws all caution to the winds just to make Fudge believe.

Plus, the way he does it is *so* Snape. It´s just one step from telling Fudge outright that if he wants him to shout nonsense at Dumbledore, he´ll serve him a Blabbing Beverage. :D

Would some one who was in league with Voldemort do this? Would some one who was going to go running back to Voldemort do this? He was trying to persuade Fudge that Voldemort needed to be dealt with straight away to be in with a greater chance of stopping him. That was an act for the good side that must have taken some courage, especially considering who it was in front of. Absolutely. And much as it did prove his loyalty to the good side in the most admirable way, with total disregard for his own reputation, if you turned the argument around you could say it was an extremely cunning way to make Fudge and Dumbledore believe *just* that. :eek:

I´m with you, Serphy – he´s on the good side. I just enjoy toying around with ideas.

I wonder what Dumbledore thought at that particular moment, as we never get to see his reaction. Was he expecting this? Was he surprised at Snape´s courage? Or did he think it unwise?

I just don't see Snape as not having the tinted past. Neither do I. He´d be so boring if he didn´t. :o

Lembas

07-14-2003, 10:48 AM

Wonderful thoughts about Snape. The scene mentioned where he shows Fudge his "mark" is absolutely my favorite Snape scene. Speaking just for me, I think he's doing it for the good side and is the one Voldy spoke of as "the one who will never return" to his service and therefore must die. Karkaroff is obviously the cowardly one, judging from the description of him being on the run in GOF.

I notice that JKR doesn't have Dumbledore reveal what he's thinking or what he's planning until the final act of each book. I truly believe he's on top of things and knows more than anyone what's going down on both sides. His silence ( or JKR's decision to have him not say anything at certain crucial moments says alot for me, that he is observing and building his information for the right time) is telling. But hopefully, after the events in OOTP, he will be more forthcoming with Harry.

Which is not at all to say that Dumbledore won't die eventually. But I think he will hold out at all costs until he's sure that everything insuring the future of Hogwarts and Harry's survival is in place. And I think Snape is part of that plan, whether Harry likes it or not. Whether Snape accepts it or not, I'd still love to see a scene where Harry tries to make amends for the way James treated Snape, and we see Snape almost giving in to young Harry's kindness, but not too much. Oh, the scenarios boggle the mind! :D

wilecoyote

07-14-2003, 12:57 PM

I love everyone's responses. I wish I could comment on so many of the quotes, but my brain can only hold small bits of info at a time.
Perhaps I just need someone to mistrust. I agree with most of you, but for every situation mentioned, in the books, where Snape is involved to seems really easy to read it both ways.
Mostly, though, there is just too much given to us to convience us to believe Snape has really turned against Voldermort.

Q. Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape?
A. Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban.
I had not seen this before. This is the first thing that makes me start to wonder. Because I do think that Snape is not one to like to be taken over. So if part of being a death eater means that Voldermort can enter and control your mind anytime he wants, I'm sure Snape would not want that.
I also see death eaters in three types

Ones who hate muggles and non "pure bloods" - Malfoy
Ones who love the dark arts - Snape
Chickensh.... - Wormtail

I guess it would be the second kind that might turn against Voldermort when things started getting really bad.

I'll still hold onto my mistrust for a while longer. :devil:

StarGazr

07-14-2003, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Dizzy Saysme
I hate Snape!:p

*tapping foot impatiently* And WHY, pray tell, would you possibly HATE this man.. I mean.. he's the most interesting character in the books... he's... he's... he's SNAPE!!! Ack!!

Seriphus

07-14-2003, 02:33 PM

He mentions six DE missing, among them three dead in his service. He doesn´t mention those in Azkaban. All the others are present. Can we conclude from that that Voldemort´s comments cover each and every single DE? Good point. I think they probably do. I remember when I first read GoF I jumped so much at Dumbledore´s “Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater”, it was like YESSSS!!! MORE COMPLEXITY!!! :LOL: LOL. It seems just as you're thinking 'could this character be any more complex?' JKR hits you with a whole new layer to his character.I wonder what Dumbledore thought at that particular moment, as we never get to see his reaction. Was he expecting this? Was he surprised at Snape´s courage? Or did he think it unwise? Hmm, even at the end of each book we don't get a very detailed idea of what Dumbledore's thinking. He was probably a little taken by surprise, but I don't imagine he would have thought it unwise.Which is not at all to say that Dumbledore won't die eventually. But I think he will hold out at all costs until he's sure that everything insuring the future of Hogwarts and Harry's survival is in place. He seems the type to die happily in his sleep of old age, rather than dying in battle or whatever. I'm not sure whether he will die or not after OoTP, although at 150+ surely he can't go on much longer.Whether Snape accepts it or not, I'd still love to see a scene where Harry tries to make amends for the way James treated Snape, and we see Snape almost giving in to young Harry's kindness, but not too much. Oh, the scenarios boggle the mind! I'm not sure that either Snape or Harry will ever make that kind of gesture, though. They both seem so set in their dislike. What I would really like to see is Remus and Snape coming to some kind of reconcilliation, although I'm not too expectant of this either. :rolleyes: I'll still hold onto my mistrust for a while longer. He he, we'll wear you down eventually! ;)

Dizzy Saysme

07-14-2003, 02:35 PM

I think he is evil!:nose:

Mithrildin

07-14-2003, 04:32 PM

Dizzy, please reread Pippin's post. And be a little more elaborate: fund your views on text passages, interviews, etc.

He mentions six DE missing, among them three dead in his service. He doesn´t mention those in Azkaban. All the others are present. Can we conclude from that that Voldemort´s comments cover each and every single DE?

Seeing as Lord Voldemort is having a nice little get-together with his followers, I believe he would mention every single one. I don't have the series here, so I have to quote from memory... I think it was Sirius who said something about Karkaroff being a coward and to watch out for him. Karkaroff also disappears when the Dark Lord returns, while Snape stays. It's not hard to make out who is more cowardly... I believe Snape would rather die than to return to Voldemort.

I would like to find out that Snape switched allegiance not because of something that the Dark Lord did to him, but because he wanted to do what is right. Also, Lord Voldemort wants total submission - I don't think Snape is one to just blindly follow the leader. He is very intelligent, and following orders from Dumbledore is, in the end, just following his own moral code.

I wonder whether Occlumency is noticed by the one who wants to break into your mind - will you actually be repelled by the one practicing Occlumency? Well, at least you would notice you cannot enter their mind... so the Dark Lord would never have accepted Snape in his service unless he let the him read his mind like an open book! A pensieve wouldn't have helped, either - someone as skilled at Diligency as Lord Voldemort would notice that something is missing.

In my (humble ;) ) opinion, Snape joined the Death Eaters because he saw them as a kind of elitist group on their rise to power - the fact that they were so into the Dark Arts would have helped. ;)

Why are they called Death Eaters, anyway ? Somehow, a allusion to the "guards" of the Tower of London, the Beefeaters, seems not very subtle for JKR... :p Mind you, if they ate too much British beef, you might call them Death Eaters, too! :D
Maybe it has something to do with Lord Voldemort's "trademark", the skull with the snake as a tongue?
I know it means that Lord Voldemort is the Parselmouth par excellence, but it could also refer to

[fanfic mode] an initiation ritual where Voldemort has each Death Eater-to be eat a live, deadly snake - maybe even a (blinded) Basilisk... they might die and only survive through Voldemort's power over the snake... [/fanfic mode] who knows? Must find out more soon! ;) Of course, being a Death Eater could mean there was some serious Dementor snogging going on... :D

Pippin, you wondered whether Snape would be able to produce a Cruciatus curse:
1. Being a former Death Eater, he would have learned the Unforgivable Curses very early (if not while still at school, at the latest from the Dark Lord).
2. We know the Aurors were (are?) allowed to use the Unforgivable Curses (I think it was Mr. Weasley who told Harry this) in pursuit of the Death Eaters (probably only under imminent threat of death). Did any Aurors use the curses in the chamber of Death fight against the returned Deatn Eaters in OotP?
(The fake) Professor Moody also showed students the curses (Dumbledore didn't know then that he was an imposter). He must have learned them in his Auror training. Otherwise Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to have his students introduced to the Unforgivable Curses. Moody was an auror, so it was okay that he knew the curses.
3. Nobody in this thread would say that Snape knows less about the Dark Arts (and how to fight them) than a normal auror. And if an auror can practice the Unforgivable Curses, Snape knows how to do (any single one of) them for sure.

I believe Dumbledore in the end. For dramatic effect, he will have told Harry "everything" by then, and he will let Harry & co. walk out into the world - without the old man watching them all the time. The HP series is also about growing up - which finishes by leaving your family and moving out - your parents will not be there to watch over you anymore. Dumbledore had that protective role for Harry for ages.
Dumbledore also defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald (Pippin, don't you think that is an allusion to Hitler ? The time, the name? :eek: ). The prophecy says that Harry will defeat the Dark Lord, and Dumbledore is the "only one Lord Voldemort was ever afraid of".
The (supposed) storyline has something of old Japanese Martial Arts stories - the master is (because of a serious wound or something else) to fight the newly arisen enemy, so his pupil who has been taught all that the master knows and become more powerful than him (through a gift given at birth, in Harry's case, maybe the share in the Dark Lord's powers), must fight the enemy. Of course, he wins (which Harry will, I don't doubt that), and the master can die in peace.

Any other storyline would get JKR lynched by disappointed fans. :eek: :p

Enough from me, I think I may have exceeded the word count. ;)

Dizzy Saysme

07-14-2003, 04:35 PM

Sigh:(

lizz

07-14-2003, 05:42 PM

is Lucius Malfoy really one of his favourite Death Eaters?
OT just for a moment
It seems so after all Malfoy is in charge of getting the prophesy and commanding the faithful Death Eaters who were in Azkaban. And concerning Snape/Malfoy it could be a reason for Snapes treatment of Draco. And Umbridge calls Snape the lapdog of Malfoy.

Originally posted by Mithrildin

I wonder whether Occlumency is noticed by the one who wants to break into your mind - will you actually be repelled by the one practicing Occlumency? Well, at least you would notice you cannot enter their mind... so the Dark Lord would never have accepted Snape in his service unless he let the him read his mind like an open book! A pensieve wouldn't have helped, either - someone as skilled at Diligency as Lord Voldemort would notice that something is missing.

Its really interesting how it works and I´m wondering why they use wands when Snape teaches harry. Its supposed to work with the mind.
MindReader Voldemort (Sorry Professor Snape :D ) could also just not notice someone is hiding anything from him.
I just read that bit today: Snape in Occulmency: "the dark Lord for instance almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie and so can utter falshoods in his presence without detection"
What do you think? I think he is speaking about himself. Could this be a hint that Snape tells Voldemort he is his spy for Dumbledore? Or is just that he is hiding he is actually working for Dumbledore.
Could this be the real reason for the pensieve and it just comes in handy when he teaches harry.?And why is he so angry when Harry gets close to that door in the Minstry in his dreams? Because Harry doesnt practise or some other reason?
I love to speculate, its fun

Originally posted by Mithrildin
(The fake) Professor Moody also showed students the curses (Dumbledore didn't know then that he was an imposter). He must have learned them in his Auror training. Otherwise Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to have his students introduced to the Unforgivable Curses. Moody was an auror, so it was okay that he knew the curses.

I havent thought about that, in fact I was quite sceptical that Dumbledore knew about it, although he does seem to know everything (Just how he does that, he is a mystery to me). But I remember people wondering why fake Moody taught Harry to how to fight the Imperius curse. Dumbledore wanting that makes more sense.

Originally posted by Mithrildin
Dumbledore also defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald (Pippin, don't you think that is an allusion to Hitler ? The time, the name? :eek: ).

I do think so. its not only the date, but also the whole idea of pure blood. But why does the name remind you of Hitler?

Dizzy Saysme

07-14-2003, 05:56 PM

:wave: :devil: :beer: :rotfl: :jawdrop: :trout: :swoon: :notworthy :sleep:

Moxie

07-14-2003, 06:27 PM

I don't quite get the overall point of your last post, Dizzy, but I do see a :swoon: in there - good to see you getting into swooning for Snape ;)

Dizzy Saysme

07-14-2003, 06:37 PM

the :swoon: does not mean I like snape. I acadently pressed that smily

Colli

07-14-2003, 07:47 PM

:D Excellent points, everyone! I've been gone all weekend.. I really do hate being away. :(

Cheers! :beer:

Dizzy, welcome! :hug: But do you think you could contribute something meaningful to the conversation? :)

Ones who hate muggles and non "pure bloods" - Malfoy
Ones who love the dark arts - Snape
Chickensh.... - Wormtail
Wile, I think this needs some modification. :) First of all, remember Sirius' brother, who joined because of his love of power and a little bit of hate for muggles. The drive for power seems to be a common motive, don't you think?

Plus several DE would fit into more than one category, take Bellatrix for example. 1) She hates mudbloods and muggles 2) She really does seem to love the Dark Arts, just IMAGINE her voice as she tells Harry that he really needs to MEAN it to use an Unforgivable curse. ::shudders:: 3) She also seems really power hungry.

Anyway, that was slightly off-topic, forgive me.

Pippin, I'd point you to one of my favorite Snape fics (it's REALLY in-character) but it's a Snape/Hermione fic. :o

Moxie

07-14-2003, 08:40 PM

Likewise, I can't post a listing of my favorite Snapefics as they run the gamut in ratings and pairings (het, slash, and non-'ship) as well as genre (yes, there is funny/fluffy Snapefic, though it is outnumbered by the angsty stuff)... and no, I haven't written fic myself from that little filk the day before the release parties (someone asked) though I am considering answering a challenge. (No, I can't post a link if I do, but I think Colli and StarGazr are familiar with the board I spotted the challenge on so I'm assured of some friendly faces among the Bubotuber-hurling reviewers ;) if I ever get off my rear and write.)

On the Grindelwald topic, his defeat occurring in the same year as Hitler's is as likely to be a coincidence as anything else Rowling writes (i.e. pretty darn unlikely). Mith's comment about the name, I suspect, is just a general observation about the German and vaguely nasty sound of the name... and before anyone asks, I do not think all German sounds vaguely nasty - I've a fair bit of German in my own Euromutt heritage, and vaguely recall Grandma Moxie singing some pleasant enough (though I've no clue what the words meant) songs from the old country, when I was quite small.

Kristin

07-14-2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Colli
one of my favorite Snape fics (it's REALLY in-character) but it's a Snape/Hermione fic.

This kind of statement always baffles me. :confused: How can Snape/Hermione be in character?????

... especially in light of what JKR said about keeping an eye on Snape and how he's not as good as people think. :devil: I love all the delicious speculation that statement can inspire.

Moxie

07-14-2003, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Kristin
...what JKR said about keeping an eye on Snape and how he's not as good as people think. :devil:

Actually, JKR's words were "you shouldn't think him too nice." Earlier in the same interview, she mentioned one of her favorite authors was C. S. Lewis, who once had a Narnia character point out that good doesn't necessarily mean nice; I suspect the same applies to Snape.

Colli

07-14-2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Kristin
This kind of statement always baffles me. :confused: How can Snape/Hermione be in character?????

... especially in light of what JKR said about keeping an eye on Snape and how he's not as good as people think. :devil: I love all the delicious speculation that statement can inspire.

First of all, I LOVE it when Rowling talks about Snape. :D

Second of all, that particular fic (Not giving the name because it's rated R.. although PG-13 probably would have been acceptable) makes it seem like it really could happen... neither character goes far beyond their limits as characters. This particular story begins AFTER the relationship, when Snape has been fired. Out of jealousy and trying to embarrass Hermione, Ron reads a letter Snape writes to Hermione to the entire Great Hall. Snape talks a lot about his history, about when he became a Death Eater, about returning to the good side, and about his emotions through all of that and it's just.. REALLY real. I can't help reading OotP and thinking about parts of that story, and thinking they were Rowling-given truths. And he's all very clever and mean and nasty (in talking about his co-workers, who ridiculed him), it's just really good.

Oooh.. I love Severus. :)

Kristin

07-14-2003, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by Moxie
Actually, JKR's words were "you shouldn't think him too nice." Earlier in the same interview, she mentioned one of her favorite authors was C. S. Lewis, who once had a Narnia character point out that good doesn't necessarily mean nice; I suspect the same applies to Snape.

My bad. :o (I was paraphrasing anyway.) But excellent point about good not meaning nice and vice versa. Sondheim's Into the Woods also makes that point: "Nice is different than good." :)

Snape is definitely not nice to Harry. But in OotP he was definitely good. (We'll see if that goodness lasts.)

Lembas

07-15-2003, 02:03 AM

Colli, when you say that someone wrote a rated-R fanfic about Snape and Hermione, that the story begins AFTER the relationship, after Snape has been fired-are you saying someone wrote a fanfic where Snape and Hermione had a relationship?!? If I'm wrong in thinking that, forgive me, but for someone to write that is sick! Please tell me it's not true! Jeez. Or am I misreading what you guys are talking about?

Colli

07-15-2003, 03:04 AM

:o No.. you're not mistaken. But it was self-rated by the author, it really should have been PG-13. And it was mostly for language, it didn't go into gory details, it was more the emotional aspect of it. I would never condone a relationship like that in real life, but somehow it works here. :)

:D StarGazr actually has her own Snape/Hermione fic in the fanfic forum here.

Another comment I noticed:

is Lucius Malfoy really one of his favourite Death Eaters?

It seems so after all Malfoy is in charge of getting the prophesy and commanding the faithful Death Eaters who were in Azkaban. And concerning Snape/Malfoy it could be a reason for Snapes treatment of Draco. And Umbridge calls Snape the lapdog of Malfoy.
But WHY would Malfoy be one of Voldemort's favorites? Bellatrix is mentioned as like, second in command, isn't she? Plus, she and her husband and those others stood up and proclaimed their devotion to Lord Voldemort throughout all the DE trials, whereas Lucius and company lied and weasled their way out of punishment, hardly complimentary to their Dark Lord.

I guess I can't understand Snape being nice to Draco to play his father. Does it really sound like our Snape? To suck up to a KID? I don't know, it doesn't feel right.

Mithrildin

07-15-2003, 03:24 AM

I was indeed referring to the origin of the name Grindelwald - there is no exact translation as far as I know. But even in German it sounds nasty. :eek:

Its really interesting how it works and I´m wondering why they use wands when Snape teaches harry. Its supposed to work with the mind.Its really interesting how it works and I´m wondering why they use wands when Snape teaches harry. Its supposed to work with the mind.
MindReader Voldemort (Sorry Professor Snape ) could also just not notice someone is hiding anything from him.
I just read that bit today: Snape in Occulmency: "the dark Lord for instance almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie and so can utter falshoods in his presence without detection"
What do you think? I think he is speaking about himself. Could this be a hint that Snape tells Voldemort he is his spy for Dumbledore? Or is just that he is hiding he is actually working for Dumbledore.
Could this be the real reason for the pensieve and it just comes in handy when he teaches harry.?And why is he so angry when Harry gets close to that door in the Minstry in his dreams? Because Harry doesnt practise or some other reason?
I love to speculate, its fun

I do believe he is referring to himself. He is the only we know to have been a Death Eater and a spy for the good side. So he must have been hiding his activities from the Dark Lord.
I think the reason he gets angry is that he knows that Lord Voldemort is trying to lure Harry there - Harry doesn't resist. By not practicing, he's not only disobeying a teacher and his headmaster, but also actively accepting that their efforts to protect him will be in vain. I think Harry was very stupid and selfish there.

Slightly off-topic: Bellatrix Lestrange - I'd like to find out more about her. What happened to her husband ? Did she hate Sirius solely because he was a traitor to the family? What is her relationship with the Dark Lord? How did she become so evil? It would be quite fascinating to know.... she would be close to as scary as the Dark Lord himself ! :eek:

Another one off-topic: why does the Ministry have a room with a gateway to death quite unsecured ? As we have seen, it's not hard to get into the Department of Mysteries, and the gateway was very alluring to Harry & co. It's like having a giant pit with signs around it: "Jump here. Treasure at bottom". Ts ts ts. :rolleyes: ;)

The Department of Mysteries would SO be my favourite place to work in the wizarding world....:swoon:

Draco Malfoy: I think Snape is still devoted to the house of Slytherin - maybe that's why ? Being nice to Draco makes sense, though - maybe Lucius doesn't know that Snape is the Death Eater who betrayed the Dark Lord. After all, throughout the Dark Lord's reign, the Death Eaters didn't know each other - masks, etc. It's mentioned somewhere. Only after the fall of Lord Voldemort they would have found out about the others. Snape was cleared and went to teach at Hogwarts. Being all for Slytherin (even unfair) fits in nicely with hiding his true nature as a traitor to Lord Voldemort. By making Lucius trust that he was still on the bad side, he was again a spy...

Kristin

07-15-2003, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by Lembas
are you saying someone wrote a fanfic where Snape and Hermione had a relationship?!?
The Boston Globe ran an excellent article a couple weeks ago about fan fiction (especially its darker side). The article opened describing a fanfic about a Snape/Harry relationship :eek: ... and then when on to explain that this was a magically older Harry. There are a lot of sick fanfic scenarios out there, IMO.

On a different note: Snape is a wonderfully complex character. I don't like Snape ... at least not in the way Colli and Moxie do. But I love what a rich character Rowling has drawn. Snape makes me mad when he's unfair to Harry et al. But you see those flashes of goodness, such as in CoS (which I'm rereading at the moment so it's in my mind) when Ginny is taken into the Chamber and all the teachers are upset, Snape grips the back of a chair very hard. He's clearly upset, too, though he doesn't really like the Weasleys and he probably doesn't want to make his caring obvious.

Pippin

07-15-2003, 07:58 AM

Good morning everyone. It´s great to wake up to so much Snape. ;)

Posted by Lembas
I notice that JKR doesn't have Dumbledore reveal what he's thinking or what he's planning until the final act of each book. His silence ( or JKR's decision to have him not say anything at certain crucial moments says a lot for me, that he is observing and building his information for the right time) is telling. That´s quite true. Most of the revelations in the books reveal what Dumbledore knew all along. Not in every case, though – he didn´t know the full story about Sirius and Peter in PoA, and he didn´t know about the Moody/Crouch jr. switch in GoF. Plus, he´s admitted to Harry that it wasn´t always a good idea to keep all the information to himself, so I hope this will change a little now.

But it still puzzles me! I´ll be disappointed if what Dumbledore tells Harry at the end of OotP was indeed “everything”, but if it was NOT “everything”, why did he say so?

Yes, Dumbledore is this mythological mentor/master figure that has to provide the hero with everything he needs (advice, information and training) to fulfil his task, and Harry isn´t fully prepared yet. As Lembas said, I think he will hold out at all costs until he's sure that everything insuring the future of Hogwarts and Harry's survival is in place. And I think Snape is part of that plan, whether Harry likes it or not. Whew, I think I´m back on topic. :o

by Kristin
But you see those flashes of goodness, such as in CoS … when Ginny is taken into the Chamber and all the teachers are upset, Snape grips the back of a chair very hard. He's clearly upset, too, though he doesn't really like the Weasleys and he probably doesn't want to make his caring obvious. Yes, I like that moment. He DOES care, big time. I also really like the way he turns to Lockheart after that. In part, he´s enjoying taking his little revenge on Lockheart there (all the teachers are), but most of it really is just getting him out of the way to have a clear field.

Snape has this extremely practical nature, he doesn’t like talking about things instead of *doing* them. Like going to check on Fluffy in HP PS when everyone else is running to the dungeons to take care of the troll.
It´s the same in the scene at the end of GoF that we discussed. He´s the first to understand that words won´t convince Fudge, so he takes some action, without further ado.

Very cool. :cool:

Posted by wilecoyote
Perhaps I just need someone to mistrust. I agree with most of you, but for every situation mentioned, in the books, where Snape is involved to seems really easy to read it both ways. Well, keep your thoughts coming, Wile – they´re quite inspiring. And maybe you´ll be laughing at us all by the end of the series. :eek:

I don´t know about the different types of DE. I think what appealed to all of them was the “elite” idea. They were the inner circle of Voldemort´s supporters. They were where the power was.

For some people, that´s enough. I can see how it would have been enough for Snape at that time, and how his leaving the DE had to do with realising that it was not only not enough, but that it was wrong.

It seems there´s more to the “turban” quote than I thought initially - you´re all very right to point out that the way the DE worship Voldemort probably didn´t appeal to Snape at all, on the contrary. They keep falling on their knees and kissing the hem of his robes and asking his forgiveness. I definitely can´t see Snape doing that with ANYONE, neither Voldemort NOR Dumbledore.

I´m not sure that Voldemort can enter any DE’s mind at will – remember the mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure ;) – but Snape must still have had a huge problem with this total submission Voldemort expects from his followers..

This guy just doesn´t take humiliation very well.

Posted by Mithrildin
I don't think Snape is one to just blindly follow the leader. He is very intelligent, and following orders from Dumbledore is, in the end, just following his own moral code. I agree – but doesn´t that mean the problem wasn´t about a particular event, it was more about Snape not liking Voldemort´s leadership style? I agree he probably didn´t – but I do wonder if that was all.

I wonder whether Occlumency is noticed by the one who wants to break into your mind - will you actually be repelled by the one practicing Occlumency? Well, at least you would notice you cannot enter their mind... I´m not sure… I suppose you´d notice that the other person was blocking you… and Snape was, or is, most definitely using his Occlumency skills on Voldemort. Will Voldemort be fooled so easily?

by Lizz
Its really interesting how it works and I´m wondering why they use wands when Snape teaches harry. Its supposed to work with the mind. You start with a wand (the more obvious technique), but later on you´re supposed to do it with your mind only. That´s how I understand it.
And why is he so angry when Harry gets close to that door in the Minstry in his dreams? Because Harry doesnt practise or some other reason? He´s not angry, he´s “unnerved”. I think it´s more of a “oh dear, has it come *that* far already?” reaction. Snape knows Harry´s mind is vulnerable, and the Dept. of Mysteries is the one place the Order are desperately trying to keep Voldemort away from. I think he realises just how much Harry needs to close his mind, and then he loses his temper because Harry doesn´t realise the danger, too.

by Mithrildin
I think the reason he gets angry is that he knows that Lord Voldemort is trying to lure Harry there - Harry doesn't resist. By not practicing, he's not only disobeying a teacher and his headmaster, but also actively accepting that their efforts to protect him will be in vain. I think Harry was very stupid and selfish there. I´m incredibly angry with Harry there, too. But then, Snape refusing point blank to go on teaching him didn´t exactly help the good cause, either…

But then, maybe Harry really wasn´t aware enough of the danger, because nobody was really telling him anything. I think this is why Dumbledore blames himself for the death of Sirius: He overestimated Sirius’s patience, but he also didn´t tell Harry enough to make him realise the danger he was in. If he´d have told Harry straight away about the Prophecy (or just the *fact* that they were guarding something there that was of utmost importance to the resistance and that Voldemort had to prevented at all costs from getting his hands on it), Harry would have taken Occlumency much more seriously.

Of course, once Snape realised Harry wasn´t putting enough of an effort into it, he could have *told* him why he had to, why and how he had to practise, but then we all know Snape´s a lousy teacher. :D

by Mithrildin
Why are they called Death Eaters, anyway ? Somehow, a allusion to the "guards" of the Tower of London, the Beefeaters, seems not very subtle for JKR... I think it´s funny. It´s supposed to be scary, of course, and maybe that´s all. But it could still be explained in books 6 & 7. I´m not sure I like your fanfiction mode though, you know. :p

About learning the unforgivable curses:

I agree that Snape certainly got the chance to learn them, at school or with the DE. But taking pleasure in hurting someone isn´t something you can learn rationally and theoretically. Like Bella says, you´ve got to have that sort of hatred in you. I wonder if Snape does.
And if an auror can practice the Unforgivable Curses, Snape knows how to do (any single one of) them for sure. That´s my point – I don´t think all Aurors can produce all the curses, even if they´re allowed to. At least not the Cruciatus one. I can´t imagine Tonks, for example, enjoying torturing someone, even an evil DE.
Did any Aurors use the curses in the chamber of Death fight against the returned Deatn Eaters in OotP? I don´t think so.

Dumbledore allowed the fake Moody to show the students the curses because they “had to know” that they existed, and how to block them. He didn´t teach them the curses.

Dumbledore also defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald (Pippin, don't you think that is an allusion to Hitler ? The time, the name?). I think so, absolutely. And I find it incredibly funny, as far as allusions to Hitler can be funny at all. The year fits, and the name is German and sounds somehow dark and unpleasant (apologies to the Swiss mountain valley it was taken from ;)).

There, I knew that one day Snape would make me exceed the character limit of MI posts. :p

TBC

Pippin

07-15-2003, 08:01 AM

Posted by lizz
And concerning Snape/Malfoy it could be a reason for Snapes treatment of Draco. And Umbridge calls Snape the lapdog of Malfoy. Hang on, that´s Sirius who says it, when he accuses Snape of being a double agent in the kitchen. (Quite a feeble try to discredit Snape, I must say. It´s quite obvious there´s nothing behind it, really.)

Umbridge says “Malfoy speaks most highly of you”.

I keep wondering, if Snape is still on friendly speaking terms with some DE such as Malfoy, how does he walk this thin line between being friendly with them and still not returning fully to the ranks of the DE?

Somehow I don´t think Snape can risk coming face to face with Voldemort (we know nobody ever lived after Voldemort announced his intention to kill him, except Harry of course). But how can Malfoy still speak highly of him if he doesn´t?

Posted by Colli

I guess I can't understand Snape being nice to Draco to play his father. Does it really sound like our Snape? To suck up to a KID? I don't know, it doesn't feel right.
Well, as I said before, he´s not sucking up to Draco, he´s just using him. The fact that it looks to everyone else (including Draco´s father) like he´s favouring him is just a welcome side effect. I´ve never seen Snape “favouring” Draco just for the sake of favouring him, there was always something else in it (giving Harry a hard time, bullying Gryffindors, wanting Slytherin to win the house cup etc.).

by Mithrildin
After all, throughout the Dark Lord's reign, the Death Eaters didn't know each other - masks, etc. It's mentioned somewhere. Only after the fall of Lord Voldemort they would have found out about the others. Not really. Snape explains the Dark Mark as “a means of distinguishing each other”, too. And remember most of his “gang” at school became DE as well, I doubt very much they kept it secret from each other. I can see Malfoy not knowing Snape was (in his eyes) a traitor, but I can´t see Malfoy not knowing Snape was a DE at all.

Fanfiction:

by Colli
it's a Snape/Hermione fic. :eek:

Well, at least I hope it´s a Snape and *grown up* Hermione fic? :o I really don´t see how anything else could be in character.

Posted by Colli
I can't help reading OotP and thinking about parts of that story, and thinking they were Rowling-given truths. That pretty much sums up the problem I have with fanfic in general. I do like filling the gaps in the story in my own imagination, and I do like speculation, but sometimes these stories just take over a little too much.

Posted by Kristin

The Boston Globe ran an excellent article a couple weeks ago about fan fiction (especially its darker side). Do you have a link to that, Kristin?

Fanfiction is an interesting phenomenon.

Colli

07-15-2003, 10:06 AM

Fanfic: Yeah, Hermione's grown up a bit. :)

I'm really enjoying your all's posts, I just have one particular thing to reply to this time. :)

By Pippin
I agree that Snape certainly got the chance to learn them, at school or with the DE. But taking pleasure in hurting someone isn´t something you can learn rationally and theoretically. Like Bella says, you´ve got to have that sort of hatred in you. I wonder if Snape does.
Yeah, I'd say he does. Remember all the reckless hatred that shocked us in the end of Prisoner of Azkaban? I remember reading, mouth gaped open, at the exchange between Sirius and Snape. (Wow.. PoA feels like a very small book now in my hands!)
Prisoner of Azkaban: The Servant of Lord Voldemort
"Two more for Azkaban tonight," said Snape, his eyes now gleaming fanatically. "I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this. . . . He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin. . . a tame werewolf --"

"You fool," said Lupin softly. "Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?" [:eek: OT note. Lupin is so unselfish here... he doesn't even mention that Snape just said TWO more for Azkaban. Surely Lupin doesn't have any skeletons in his closet?]

... With a roar of rage, Black started toward Snape, but Snape pointed his wand straight between Black's eyes.

"Give me a reason," he whispered. "Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will.

Black stopped dead.
Obviously, Sirius seemed to think he was capable of casting whatever evil curse he was going to use, presumable Avada Kedavra.

If Snape is capable of this sort of hatred towards Lupin and Sirius, he could very well be harboring ill will towards, say, a father that beat his mother? I somehow doubt all anger in Snape's life has been limited to the Marauders.

Lady Haleth

07-15-2003, 12:15 PM

I can see Malfoy not knowing Snape was (in his eyes) a traitor...
I don't understand why Voldemort would keep this a secret from the DEs. Wouldn't it make more sense for V to let them know that Snape is their enemy?

(Or does he know something that we don't?)

Seriphus

07-15-2003, 12:46 PM

WTG Pippin, exceeding the word count. ;) And good points too.

I just read that bit today: Snape in Occulmency: "the dark Lord for instance almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie and so can utter falshoods in his presence without detection"
What do you think? I think he is speaking about himself. Could this be a hint that Snape tells Voldemort he is his spy for Dumbledore? Or is just that he is hiding he is actually working for Dumbledore.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was talking from his own experience, definitely in the case of telling Voldemort he's still loyal to him. I guess once you become sufficiently skilled in occlumency it's possible to tell a legilimens whatever you want without them detecting that you're lying.
I like that quote because suddenly the whole 'He lies... he lies...' bit from PS/SS makes sense.I´m not sure… I suppose you´d notice that the other person was blocking you… and Snape was, or is, most definitely using his Occlumency skills on Voldemort. Will Voldemort be fooled so easily? I'm not sure you'd definitely know some one was blocking you. From my understanding you use occlumency to block (to quote Snape) 'those feelings and memories that contradict the lie', but not all feelings and memories so there would still be things accessible to the legilimens. Basically, you're shutting off part of your mind, not the whole thing so as long as Voldemort could sense information that backed up what he was being told I see no reason why he'd realise that that was not the case. I´m not sure that Voldemort can enter any DE’s mind at will – remember the mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure – but Snape must still have had a huge problem with this total submission Voldemort expects from his followers.. Yes, I think Snape would have been put off by all the robe-kissing. It's not in his character at all to bow down to authority. Maybe when he first joined he joined in with all of the submission stuff, but I could see him getting more and more disillusioned with the whole thing and then finally being tipped over the edge by one significant event.But WHY would Malfoy be one of Voldemort's favorites? Bellatrix is mentioned as like, second in command, isn't she? Plus, she and her husband and those others stood up and proclaimed their devotion to Lord Voldemort throughout all the DE trials, whereas Lucius and company lied and weasled their way out of punishment, hardly complimentary to their Dark Lord. That's what I meant. :) In chapter 33 of GoF he gives Lucius a dressing down for not trying to find him and for running away from the Dark Mark at the World Cup. It's hardly as though he's in favour with the Dark Lord. Unlike Bellatrix and Barty Crouch who both see themselves as the Dark Lord's most faithful servant.Obviously, Sirius seemed to think he was capable of casting whatever evil curse he was going to use, presumable Avada Kedavra.

If Snape is capable of this sort of hatred towards Lupin and Sirius, he could very well be harboring ill will towards, say, a father that beat his mother? I somehow doubt all anger in Snape's life has been limited to the Marauders. I agree. He seems to store up a lot of his anger, there's probably a whole history of hatred that makes it possible for him to use the curse. I think both he and Sirius would have no trouble performing it. Those two are so alike.
[:eek: OT note. Lupin is so unselfish here... he doesn't even mention that Snape just said TWO more for Azkaban. Surely Lupin doesn't have any skeletons in his closet?] I'd not noticed that. Ahh, :hug: I love Remus. If anyone has a chance of even the smallest reconcilliation with Snape it's him....but then we all know Snape´s a lousy teacher. :D OK, straying off the beaten track a little with this, but I actually don't think Snape's a lousy teacher at all. He's not a nice teacher, certainly, but from my experience a scary teacher can get just as good results, if not better than, a nice, friendly teacher.

lizz

07-15-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Hang on, that´s Sirius who says it, when he accuses Snape of being a double agent in the kitchen. (Quite a feeble try to discredit Snape, I must say. It´s quite obvious there´s nothing behind it, really.)

Umbridge says “Malfoy speaks most highly of you”.

Sorry I obviosly got it wrong there :o Cant take that statement of Mr.Black seriously. and it makes more sense he said it not Umbridge.

Originally posted by Colli
Obviously, Sirius seemed to think he was capable of casting whatever evil curse he was going to use, presumable Avada Kedavra.

Sirius thought Snape would kill him, I dont think he bothered about how after all he said Snape knew a lot of Dark magic already when he came to school.
Sirius knew snape could take his revenge and nobody would really question what happend, after all sirius was looked for as dangerous murderer. Like dumbledore said, the word of a werewlf would count almost nothing. And the trio hadnt seen Pettigrew yet.

Maybe Snape wouldnt have used the Avadra, because its punished with Azkaban. I have more understanding for Snape in that scene now, he doesnt look that mad anymore, but still I need to know more about Snape and the Marauders. such a lot of hate between them. But I enjoy PoA a lot more with the background we have now. Only he dont have the whole background yet. :(

by Lady Haleth
I don't understand why Voldemort would keep this a secret from the DEs. Wouldn't it make more sense for V to let them know that Snape is their enemy?

thats why I like the idea that Snapes convinced Voldemort he is his spy on Dumbledore while really it is the other way round.

Kristin

07-15-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Most of the revelations in the books reveal what Dumbledore knew all along. Not in every case, though – ... he didn´t know about the Moody/Crouch jr. switch in GoF.

I was reading that scene last night, and something doesn't add up. Dumbledore says he knew it was an imposter Moody when Moody took Harry away. But he doesn't know who the imposter is until the Polyjuice Potion wears off ... yet he asks Snape (see, still on topic) to bring up Winky from the kitchens. Hmmm.... How did he know Winky would be relevant? So it's either a mistake or it means Dumbledore knew.

As for Snape and the Malfoys ... I think Snape honestly does like Draco. Draco has the same attitudes and prejudices as his father, but he's not a Death Eater, and that's important. Snape called Lily a Mudblood. Has Snape gotten rid of that attitude? Possibly not. But I think even if he doesn't like certain people he feels that it is wrong to kill them. That's a vital difference.

But also, Snape has appeared to come back to the Death Eaters, so he has to keep up appearances so no one suspects he is a double agent. So he maintains friendship with the Malfoys.

Mithrildin

07-15-2003, 04:34 PM

Myself, I would prefer the snake swallowing to the Dementor snogging for sure, Pip. ;)

About the Curses: Dumbledore knew Moody was at least showing the students the effects of the Curses, and how to fight them. Which means that it he found it okay that Moody could produce the Cruciatus curse - that Moody had that kind of hatred for someone. I don't think the hatred has to be specific - Moody (the imposter) used it on a spider, after all. How can you hate a spider ? Of course, Ron could... :D

I think Snape has that kind of hatred - he might have used Avada Kedavra in self-defence. Is that possible?

Again on the Death Eaters being masked and only Lord Voldemort knowing every single one of them etc. - could anyone find that passage for me? I am quite sure it exists! It may have been to prevent traitors from betraying them all. Why would they have needed the trials, otherwise ? If every Death Eater knew the others, it would have been easy to find out who was with them and who was not! Thanks :)

Pippin, the best fan-fic I have read so far is the Cassandra Claire series, although it does go a bit far sometimes and misses a lot of JKR's magic.

I was reading that scene last night, and something doesn't add up. Dumbledore says he knew it was an imposter Moody when Moody took Harry away. But he doesn't know who the imposter is until the Polyjuice Potion wears off ... yet he asks Snape (see, still on topic) to bring up Winky from the kitchens. Hmmm.... How did he know Winky would be relevant? So it's either a mistake or it means Dumbledore knew.

My guess is that he suspected what was up and who the imposter was.

Btw, a little more information on Azkaban and the Dark Arts would be great, too. And did OotP say anything about Bellatrix' husband ?

Pippin

07-16-2003, 09:26 AM

I´ll be shorter again this time, I promise. :o

by Colli

Remember all the reckless hatred that shocked us in the end of Prisoner of Azkaban? I remember reading, mouth gaped open, at the exchange between Sirius and Snape. Yes, it´s pretty tough stuff (even for Snape admirers ;)).

Obviously, Sirius seemed to think he was capable of casting whatever evil curse he was going to use, presumable Avada Kedavra. If Snape is capable of this sort of hatred towards Lupin and Sirius, he could very well be harboring ill will towards, say, a father that beat his mother? I somehow doubt all anger in Snape's life has been limited to the Marauders. I doubt that, too.

Posted by lizz

Maybe Snape wouldnt have used the Avadra, because its punished with Azkaban. But as you said yourself, it would have probably been excused as self-defense in the act of apprehending a dangerous mass murderer. Fudge meant the Dementors to get Sirius anyway, it can´t make a big difference (from the official Ministry point of view) if Snape had done their job for them.

by Mithrildin

I don't think the hatred has to be specific - Moody (the imposter) used it on a spider, after all. That´s true. And puzzling. It sounds logical enough in itself, Tuvo, and it´s a powerful argument for Snape being able to produce the curse, too – but it doesn´t fit with what Bella tells Harry, that you´ve got to WANT to hurt at that particular moment.

by Serphy

I think both he and Sirius would have no trouble performing it. Those two are so alike. Scary, eh? :D

by Colli

Lupin is so unselfish here... he doesn't even mention that Snape just said TWO more for Azkaban. Surely Lupin doesn't have any skeletons in his closet? Great thought, never noticed it. But I´d like to think that he was indeed just being unselfish. :)

by Lady Haleth

I don't understand why Voldemort would keep this [Snape´s changing sides] a secret from the DEs. Wouldn't it make more sense for V to let them know that Snape is their enemy? (Or does he know something that we don't?) Possibly. I think you´re right, Lady H – why would Voldemort keep it secret? I admit that´s lizz´s theory is the only really plausible theory so far – by Lizz

that Snape`s convinced Voldemort he is his spy on Dumbledore while really it is the other way round. but for me, this still doesn´t fit in with “He will be killed, of course.” Voldemort doesn´t seem the type that easily abandons the project of killing someone who´s abandoned him. I just can´t see him taking Snape back into the ranks of the DE just like that. Remember what he does to a DE at the end of GoF (Avery, isn´t it? Why is it always Avery being punished, btw? Well, maybe he likes it. :eek: ) just because he didn´t proclaim his loyalty openly and go to Azkaban. I don´t want to think what Snape must have gone through if he really faced Voldemort and told him he had actually changed sides but he was back now. If Voldemort´s treatment of Avery is anything to go by, it´s a miracle Snape is still alive at all. :eek:

Maybe that´s why he turned so pale when Dumbledore told him at the end of GoF “you know what you must do”.

Oh the POOR GUY! :(

by Mithrildin
Again on the Death Eaters being masked and only Lord Voldemort knowing every single one of them etc. - could anyone find that passage for me? I am quite sure it exists! It may have been to prevent traitors from betraying them all…. If every Death Eater knew the others, it would have been easy to find out who was with them and who was not! Tuvo, someone´s borrowed my GoF and I´ve been harassing him to give it back for weeks, to no avail so far. Someone else will have to provide the quote. Could it be somewhere at the beginning, at the World Cup, when Mr Weasley explains who the DE are?
You might be right, there´s that reason for wearing masks. But they can´t be very serious about it after all, with Voldemort addressing them with their real names at the end of GoF, and Lucius Malfoy shouting the names of his fellow combatants all over the Ministry at the end of OotP. :rolleyes:

Maybe not all of them know about all the others, but what I meant is I doubt that there can be any DE that *no* other DE knows about.

And did OotP say anything about Bellatrix' husband ? Nothing, except he was in Azkaban with her for torturing the Longbottoms, and escaped with her. He´s in the Ministry fight as well.

Btw what happened to all the DE apprehended in the Ministry? IIRC, none except Voldemort himself and Bella escaped.

by Seriphus

I guess once you become sufficiently skilled in occlumency it's possible to tell a legilimens whatever you want without them detecting that you're lying… I'm not sure you'd definitely know some one was blocking you. From my understanding you use occlumency to block (to quote Snape) 'those feelings and memories that contradict the lie', but not all feelings and memories so there would still be things accessible to the legilimens. Basically, you're shutting off part of your mind, not the whole thing so as long as Voldemort could sense information that backed up what he was being told I see no reason why he'd realise that that was not the case. This makes perfect sense to me, Serphy.

It's not in his character at all to bow down to authority. Maybe when he first joined he joined in with all of the submission stuff, but I could see him getting more and more disillusioned with the whole thing and then finally being tipped over the edge by one significant event. That´s a good scenario, which reconciles both aspects – he didn´t like the DE code of conduct, but some specific event must have triggered his changing sides. I mean, even if you felt unhappy with the DE, you´d know how dangerous it was to opt out (see Regulus Black), so quite a few of them, once they were caught up in it, probably preferred to stay for the sake of their own safety.

by Kristin

Draco has the same attitudes and prejudices as his father, but he's not a Death Eater, and that's important. Well, Draco is under-age, and as with the Order, you´re probably not allowed to join til after school. I suppose that´s the only reason why Draco isn´t a fully fledged DE yet. Plus, we don´t know at all whether Snape shares Lucius Malfoy´s prejudices. Snape called Lily a Mudblood. Has Snape gotten rid of that attitude? Possibly not. But very likely yes. Have we ever heard him say anything against muggle borns and part-humans? CoS would probably the book to look for that sort of thing… I don´t remember anything of that sort. And it seems unlikely that Snape changed sides if he really believed all that racist pure-blood crap. He might still have disagreed with Voldemort´s regime, but he wouldn´t actively have worked together with “Champion of Muggles and Mudbloods” Albus Dumbledore and his gang of werewolfs, half-giants and muggle borns.

I think Snape just wanted to insult Lily and the first thing that came to his 15 year old Slytherin mind was, of course, “Mudblood”.

Maybe Lucius Malfoy is not Voldemort´s favourite DE, but he´s still important and useful. He´s extremely rich, he has good connections to the Ministry and the rest of the wizarding world, he´s maybe not popular but generally well-respected. He´s certainly been a greater help to Voldemort´s cause than Bella, sitting in Azkaban. Different case again with Crouch jr., after all it was mostly him that made Voldemort´s return to a body possible.

Note it´s Lucius Malfoy who´s in charge of the DE´s mission in the Dept. of Mysteries, not Bellatrix, nor Rookwood who used to work there.

Posted by Kristin
I was reading that scene last night, and something doesn't add up. Dumbledore says he knew it was an imposter Moody when Moody took Harry away. But he doesn't know who the imposter is until the Polyjuice Potion wears off ... yet he asks Snape (see, still on topic) to bring up Winky from the kitchens. Hmmm.... How did he know Winky would be relevant? So it's either a mistake or it means Dumbledore knew. Did he ask for Winky to come *before* he saw who “Moody” really was? That would be amazing. After all, the whole plot is constructed in such an amazingly complicated way even Dumbledore couldn´t have guessed it all.

Will comment on the "lousy teacher topic" in a later post. There´s no room left in this one. :o

Seriphus

07-16-2003, 11:24 AM

I was reading that scene last night, and something doesn't add up. Dumbledore says he knew it was an imposter Moody when Moody took Harry away. But he doesn't know who the imposter is until the Polyjuice Potion wears off ... yet he asks Snape (see, still on topic) to bring up Winky from the kitchens. Hmmm.... How did he know Winky would be relevant? So it's either a mistake or it means Dumbledore knew.

>Did he ask for Winky to come *before* he saw who “Moody” really was? That would be amazing. After all, the whole plot is constructed in such an amazingly complicated way even Dumbledore couldn´t have guessed it all.
He does indeed ask for Winky before the polyjuice potion wears off. Perhaps when Dobby and Winky went to see Dumbledore about work Winky let slip something about Barty Crouch Jnr being alive?could anyone find that passage for me? I am quite sure it exists! It does exist.

'You must understand,' said Karkaroff hurriedly, 'that He Who Must Not Be Named operated in the greatest secrecy ... he preferred that we - I mean to say, his supporters - and I regret now, very deeply, that I ever counted myself among them -'
'Get on with it,' sneered Moody.
'- we never knew the names of every one of our fellows - he alone knew exactly who we all were -'
'Which was a wise move, wasn't it, as it prevented someone like you, Karkaroff, turning all of them in,' muttered Moody. (GoF, chpt 30, The Pensieve)
Maybe not all of them know about all the others, but what I meant is I doubt that there can be any DE that *no* other DE knows about. Yeah, I think that would be impossible. And obviously Karkaroff knew Snape was a DE.
But they can´t be very serious about it after all, with Voldemort addressing them with their real names at the end of GoF, and Lucius Malfoy shouting the names of his fellow combatants all over the Ministry at the end of OotP.
:rolleyes: :LOL: Something doesn't quite add up there.

And if anyone questions Dumbledore's belief in Snape and/or is an advocate of the Dumbledore is evil theory this is a nice little quote:

'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us at great personal risk. He is no more a Death Eater than I am.' (GoF, chpt 30, The Pensieve)

Cue Dumbledore revealing his DE membership badge in book 7. :D Note it´s Lucius Malfoy who´s in charge of the DE´s mission in the Dept. of Mysteries, not Bellatrix, nor Rookwood who used to work there. But is that just a way to start Lucius off on making up for the 13 years of denial? Surely no one was going to make a balls up of that simple mission? :rolleyes: But very likely yes. Have we ever heard him say anything against muggle borns and part-humans? Only little snipes against werewolves that I'm aware of.

'Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works,' hissed Snape.

He clicked his fingers, and the ends of the cords that bound Lupin flew to his hands. 'I'll drag the werewolf...'

Mithrildin

07-16-2003, 03:02 PM

'You must understand,' said Karkaroff hurriedly, 'that He Who Must Not Be Named operated in the greatest secrecy ... he preferred that we - I mean to say, his supporters - and I regret now, very deeply, that I ever counted myself among them -'
'Get on with it,' sneered Moody.
'- we never knew the names of every one of our fellows - he alone knew exactly who we all were -'
'Which was a wise move, wasn't it, as it prevented someone like you, Karkaroff, turning all of them in,' muttered Moody. (GoF, chpt 30, The Pensieve)

Thanks Seriphus! :) That was indeed the quote - now it's clear that they might not have know every single one. Though the long-time Buddies from Slytherin probably let each other in on their little secret. :eek:

Snape also doesn't punish Draco for calling Hermione a Mudblood...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Mithrildin

I don't think the hatred has to be specific - Moody (the imposter) used it on a spider, after all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That´s true. And puzzling. It sounds logical enough in itself, Tuvo, and it´s a powerful argument for Snape being able to produce the curse, too – but it doesn´t fit with what Bella tells Harry, that you´ve got to WANT to hurt at that particular moment.

That's my point - you have to have a certain amount on hatred, which needn't be specific (like Snape's for the Marauders). PLUS you have to use it, wanting to hurt the person you're using the Curse on at that particular moment.

Harry wasn't trying to hurt Bellatrix, he was trying to win the fight. I suppose it's not hard to do - though I'd say you'd have to know what it's like. It reminds of two fighters, with one punching the other to a pulp although he has already won, the other fighter is down... just to hurt him as much as possible.

Colli

07-16-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Btw what happened to all the DE apprehended in the Ministry? IIRC, none except Voldemort himself and Bella escaped. [/B]

:D I'm enjoying this discussion too much to muddle it up with my own thoughts. ;) But I can answer that question: they're in Azkaban, being guarded by... no one. :p Well, someone, but certainly not the dementors. Anyway, here's the quote:
Order of the Phoenix, The Second War Begins
"I'm going to make you pay for what you've done to my father...." [...] "You think you're such a big man, Potter," said Malfoy, advancing now, Crabbe and Goyle flanking him. "You wait. I'll have you. You can't land my father in prison --"

"I thought I just had," said Harry.

"The dementors have left Azkaban," said Malfoy quietly. "Dad and the others'll be out in no time...."

"Yeah, I expect they will," said Harry. "Still, at least everyone knows what scumbags they are now --"

And on a more on-topic note, I found this on the same page:

"Potter!"

The voice rang across the entrance hall; Snape had emerged from the staircase leading down to his office, and at the sight of him Harry felt a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt toward Malfoy.... Whatever Dumbledore said, he would never forgive Snape.... never...
:( There go some of my hopes for reconciliation...

Mithrildin

07-16-2003, 05:08 PM

Ah, Colli, you know what they say (or at least someone I once knew said :p): "The opposite of love is not hate but lack of all feeling... because even hate may turn to love spontaneously."
But I don't expect Harry to enter Snape in the "Favourite Hogwarts Teacher" Contest. :D

Colli

07-17-2003, 01:51 AM

:D I said "some" of my hopes, anyway. ;)

I was doing some reading for a different theory and thought I'd drop this quote in here though: :)
Order of the Phoenix, Career Advice
"Yeah okay," said Harry heavily. "I just never thought I'd feel sorry for Snape."
I didn't remember him actually saying it flat out. :D

lizz

07-17-2003, 11:39 AM

Snape also doesn't punish Draco for calling Hermione a Mudblood...

But that doesnt say anything about Snapes attitude. He just likes to see Harry and friends imsulted or to insult them himself. Like, I see no difference in GOf when hermiones teeth were growing.

Harry wasn't trying to hurt Bellatrix, he was trying to win the fight. I suppose it's not hard to do - though I'd say you'd have to know what it's like. It reminds of two fighters, with one punching the other to a pulp although he has already won, the other fighter is down... just to hurt him as much as possible.

No, he wanted to hurt her, she had just killed Sirius,

"hatred rose in Harry such as he had never known before; he flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed crucio"
And it worked, not entirely thats tue, but it worked enough that she screamed.

Elwen

07-17-2003, 05:45 PM

This is a great discussion - I loved reading all your thoughts.

One thing that is becomeing clearer is that there is something fishy with the death eaters.... Surely, Voldemort knows that there is a traitor who won't return at Hogwart's and we all think it has to be Snape.

If what V said does refer to Snape & karkaroff then whatever dangerous things Snape is doing now can't be posing as a death eater in order to act as a spy.

But I am sure there is a lot of stuff for him to do.

But then, whatever we do there are still contradictions. Surely, V's reference would be intelligible to someone as knowledgeable as Malfoy - in any case, Malfoy nearly has to know that Snape is/was a death eater and he should wonder about Snape not being there.

Why does Malfoy treat Snape so nicely?

I am just not getting it!!!

But then, Snape isn't in the Ministry fight (sorry, that scene confuses me endlessly), is he, so at least that would keep his cover.

So, if Snape is still under cover (something we should assume from Malfoy's behaviour) then we need to assume there is another ex-death eater at hogwarts. But is that likely?

It is frustrating.

Concerning the occlumency lessons:

I am afraid I just don't agree with Snape in these scenes. He says to Harry that he has to clear his mind, at the same time annoying Harry so much that this won't be easily possible. Perhaps Snape does want to make Harry able to perform occlumency under adverse circumstances, or perhaps he thinks it good practice (for a man with such strong feelings the occasion for this skill must have arisen at some point).

But if he asks Harry to clear his mind then Snape should have done so, too, and refrained from offending Harry (clearly not having cleared his own mind) so Harry could actually get his act together.

Snape was clearly very irresponsible there and I can't see any other way of interpreting this. I just don't understand how anyone expected this to work if clearing your mind is so central to these lessons....

Elwen

Mirdan

07-17-2003, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Elwen
But then, Snape isn't in the Ministry fight (sorry, that scene confuses me endlessly), is he, so at least that would keep his cover.

So, if Snape is still under cover (something we should assume from Malfoy's behaviour) then we need to assume there is another ex-death eater at hogwarts. But is that likely?
Dumbledore told Harry that after alerting some of the members of the Order and after making sure Sirius was alive and safe back in Grimmauld Place, Snape wanted to look for Harry in the Forbidden Forest. how exactly he knew of Harry's whereabouts, i'm still not clear on that, especially since Snape left Umbdridge's office before Hermione led Harry and Umbridge to the forest; a great risk on Snape's part, considering that Centaurs are just about ready to kill humans, and acromantulas and other things roam wild in the forest...

if there is another ex-Death Eater in Hogwarts, who would it likely be? can't think of a single character from Hogwarts, unless you'd start counting the students, which is unlikely at this time. i would think that Snape would have acknowledged this person in question by now, but so far we don't know anything about another ex-Death Eater in Hogwarts. even Dumbledore would definitely know -- the more ex-Death Eaters on their side, the more important information they can gather in order to effectively be one step ahead of Voldemort.

unless this ex-Death Eater is using Polyjuice Potion and disguised themselves as one of the regulars at Hogwarts...it's been done before, and even Dumbledore was almost fooled.

Colli

07-17-2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Mirdan
if there is another ex-Death Eater in Hogwarts, who would it likely be? can't think of a single character from Hogwarts, unless you'd start counting the students, which is unlikely at this time.
And it couldn't be the students, because from Voldie's downfall to Voldie's return, no one could have joined the Death Eaters (and gotten the shiny black tattoo). And before Voldie's return, current students were either toddlers or they hadn't been born.

Kristin

07-17-2003, 10:29 PM

I don't think there is another Death Eater at Hogwarts. ... Remember, though, that Lucius Malfoy used to be a school governor. I think it's always possible for Death Eaters to be found in positions of power.

Here's my Snape question, which I've mentioned before, but don't feel like I have an answer: In GoF Sirius mentions that Snape was friends with a bunch of Slytherins that almost all turned out to be Death Eaters (including the Lestranges and Avery). In OotP in the Pensieve scene, it's implied that Snape doesn't have friends.

But he did have friends. So, where were they?

Telchar II

07-17-2003, 11:31 PM

I think we can explain some of the uncertainties about Snape if we assume that Snape is actually not Snape, but someone else.

Why do I think we might assume this?

First, “Snape’s worst memory” does not seem like a memory of Snape’s. In that scene, Harry is hearing things that Snape could not have heard. Harry’s perspective during the scene is from the group of Marauders. This is very different from when Harry saw the Wizengamot trials of the Death Eaters that Dumbledore remembered—he was always right next to Dumbledore in Dumbledore’s memories. Harry was also next to Tom Riddle in Tom Riddle’s memory of confronting Hagrid and the spider. Not so in the worst memory of “Snape.”

My suspicion that this is not truly Snape’s memory is deepened by its portrayal of Snape, who (at least ostensibly) is studying the exam paper and is not paying attention to the Marauders. Indeed, Snape appears to have been caught by James unawares, which would make no sense at all if this were Snape’s memory, as it is so focused on James. Why would Snape let himself be attacked if he had heard Sirius and James talk among themselves: “Snivellus—Excellent!” From what we can see in this memory, Snape would not have known what the Marauders were saying among themselves, but the memory goes on for pages and pages of the Marauders’ dialogue.

Second, it is because this memory is clearly not Snape’s memory that it is so dangerous to the person teaching Harry occlumency. If we think that in order to spy on Voldemort, the man we think of as Snape underwent some memory modifications, then it would be important for him to conceal any memories that were imperfectly modified. And it would be extremely important for him to conceal them from Voldemort, who, as all the Order members know, is stirring in Harry’s mind. This memory is flawed and is a vulnerability; therefore it must be suppressed, and kept from Voldemort, by putting in the Pensieve.

Third, if “Snape” is not really Snape, this explains why Harry’s occlumency teacher reacts so badly to learning that Harry is not practicing clearing his mind. Harry’s occlumency teacher is angry not because he is ashamed of the memory, but rather because he is concerned—perhaps even frightened—of what the memory might reveal to Voldemort. That, fundamentally, is why Harry is thrown out of occlumency lessons: because he is becoming a danger to his teacher. Only this explains why Snape, seemingly an extremely dedicated member of the Order, and very close to Dumbledore, would violate Dumbledore’s instructions.

Fourth, this theory also explains what Elwen is so puzzled about: that Harry’s occlumency teacher seems, if anything, to want Harry to fail at occlumency, and not to succeed. This desire is natural, because if Harry were to succeed at occlumency with his teacher, Voldemort would succeed as well, and might find secrets in the teacher’s mind that should remain hidden.

Fifth, this danger elegantly explains why Harry’s occlumency teacher puts this flawed, and therefore dangerous, memory in the Pensieve before engaging with Harry’s mind. Note that other shameful childhood memories are not in the Pensieve, but this one is. Why? Because this one is different from the others, in that it gives away the fact of memory modification.

Now, as we’ve been discussing, this theory has interesting implications for the Snape-Voldemort relationship. If Voldemort didn’t know Snape was a traitor, then Snape would be hiding from Harry (and therefore from Voldemort) not this flawed childhood memory, but the memory of the commission from Dumbledore to spy on the Death Eaters. But Voldemort already knows about that, and “Snape” knows Voldemort knows. So that is not a contingency to prevent, but rather something that no longer needs to be concealed. No, the danger here—the thing to be hidden and kept secret—is bigger and more important than Snape’s double agency, which is something that Voldemort already knows about.

This brings me to the conclusion that this memory of Snape’s has to be kept from Harry (and therefore from Voldemort) because it proves that the man we think of as Snape is actually not Snape at all. The real Severus Snape is probably dead. But who did he switch places, and even memories, with? And who, therefore, is impersonating Snape now?

My suspicion, because of perspective of the flawed memory, is the man we think of as Snape is actually one of the original Marauders. Which one, you ask? Well, we can eliminate several of these four suspects.

Lupin is easy. No one other than a real werewolf would cause all that trouble in PoA by turning into a wolf at exactly the wrong moment. No one other than a true werewolf would be fear the moon most (as every Lupin-boggart encounter shows he does—a good test of whether Lupin is really Lupin).

Pettigrew is also easy to eliminate because Sirius and Lupin cooperated to turn him from a rat into his natural form. Particularly given all the other topsy-turvy changes of motive and understanding in that scene, I do not believe that Sirius and Lupin could have tacitly cooperated in turning the rat into something other than its actual form. Therefore the rat was truly Pettigrew; therefore Pettigrew cannot be “Snape.”

Eliminating Sirius as a Snape-substitute is harder. All I can say is that I believe that Sirius’s transformation into a big dog confirms in part that Sirius is indeed who he appears to be. Furthermore, the fact that Crookshanks likes Sirius is an additional piece of evidence confirming that he is who he appears to be—because a kneazle cannot abide deception. (Right? I think?)

Well, you obviously see where I’m going with this. The man we think of as Severus Snape—as Harry Potter’s academic nemesis and indeed a man with a grudge against two generations of Potters—may actually be James Potter himself. In order to protect both Harry and himself back in the first war, James underwent massive memory modification and permanent transfiguration in order to take on not just the appearance, but also the nature, of Severus Snape. The real Snape reciprocated, at least to a degree, and served the Order by impersonating James Potter and guarding Lily and Harry in Godric’s Hollow. Voldemort killed someone who looked like James—but not James himself. Voldemort was fooled, as Lily, James, and the real Snape had intended all along.

Telchar II

07-17-2003, 11:32 PM

[posting again b/c post is too long; sorry]

OK, you say, what’s the evidence backing up this crazy theory?

I believe that this theory explains a lot.

First, it explains what I have always thought is the greatest mystery about Godric’s Hollow: why didn’t James’s death serve to protect Lily, as Dumbledore says that Lily’s death protected Harry? In other words, why didn’t Voldemort’s AK spell rebound to maim him when he cast it on Lily, before ever reaching Harry? Under my theory, the reason is because Snape (contrary to much speculation) did not particularly love Lily or Harry, and so his death to save them did not confer the same protection on them as Lily’s did on Harry.

Second, my theory explains some odd circumlocutions that occur in Dumbledore’s analysis of the Priori Incantatem effect. Remember how Dumbledore does not say that Harry’s parents emerged from Voldemort’s wand, but that “appearances” of them did? For a while I thought that this was an aspersion on the apparitions as apparitions, and that it applied to Cedric, the old Muggle (name escapes me), and Bertha as well as to Lily and James. Now I wonder, however, whether the word “appearances” was meant to fudge the truth with respect to James alone. Doesn’t Dumbledore hesitate a little before using this word? How often do we see Dumbledore at a loss for words? My theory suggests that Dumbledore (a former transfiguration teacher) knows what James, Lily, and Snape did back in the day, but he can’t tell anyone.

Third, my theory also explains the great Wand-Order-Mixup in the Phoenix graveyard scene: JKR preferred to have James say “your mother wants to see you” because this was not a lie; the next figure to come out of the wand literally was Harry’s mother. Apparently, corrected editions now have Lily come out of the wand first and say “Your father wants to see you.” I don’t view this as a big problem for my theory; if you accept that the appearances of Lily and Snape were somehow autonomous (which I think is likely, given what they did to V after they emerged from his wand), then of course they would maintain the fiction.

Fourth, it explains JKR’s odd insistence on Harry’s resemblance to his father and his mother. This insistence confirms that Harry is indeed the child of Lily and James, even though it was Snape, in heavy disguise, who was living with Lily a year later, when Voldemort attacked.

Fifth, this theory also explains JKR’s odd insistence on James’s skill with transfiguration (check out Ollivander’s description of James’s wand) and Lily’s skill with charms (ditto re Lily’s wand). It is vitally important that memory spells are charms. Lily must have been a skilled memory-modifier, a super-Lockhart, if you will. James would have known how to maintain Snape’s physical form easily. Lily would have known how to modify James’s memories so that he could pass for Snape, should any Legilimens inquire.

Sixth, my theory explains why JKR put a big red herring in the chapter title: “Snape’s Worst Memory.” She never comes out and tells us in the text that this was Snape’s worst memory, does she? We all just assume, because of the chapter title, that that’s what this scene represents. Perhaps JKR is more comfortable putting such a red herring in a chapter heading than telling it to us outright. Under my theory, this chapter should have been entitled not “Snape’s Worst Memory” but “The Most Dangerous Memory of ‘Snape.’”

What my theory requires, however—and lacks at the moment—is a reason for James’s survival to really, really matter. In other words, James could only have been convinced to leave Lily and Harry, even for a short time, if Dumbledore could persuade James that it was important that the male Potters be separated, so that Voldemort could not kill them both in one fell swoop. Thus my theory requires a heir-of-Gryffindor theory, or something like it, to back it up. Of course, the “heir-of-Gryffindor” theory doesn’t work if Dumbledore really told Harry “everything” at the end of Phoenix. But who really believes that Dumbledore told Harry everything?

The ultimate test of my theory: has Snape ever been spotted on the Marauders’ Map? (I’d really be disappointed if it has!) If not, then Snape is not really Snape, but someone else. But I have a comeback if he was—even if Mad-Eye Moody, also known as Voldemort’s most loyal servant, looked at the Marauder’s Map (which should have read “James Potter” instead of “Severus Snape”) but didn’t tell Voldemort. The only possible explanation of this flaw in my theory is that James, as a creator of the Marauder’s Map, knows how to defeat it. (But Sirius or Lupin, one of the two—another mapmaker, at any rate—seems to think that this is not possible; he says “the Marauder’s Map never lies.”)

Colli

07-18-2003, 12:38 AM

LOL! Wild theory of the day! :clap: Well done, that was enjoyable. :)

While I refuse to believe that Snape is anyone but Snape, you DID do a lot of thinking. One thing I noticed you didn't cover, though. You mentioned that James might have been able to transfigure himself to look like Snape, but what about his VOICE? Surely someone would have noticed.

Anyway, I think James would have to be a brilliant actor to pretend to hate his son and best friends. And then consider the Snape scene with the Marauder's Map in PoA.. :) And wouldn't James/Snape have confiscated the Marauder's Map by now? If Snape really is James, then he would know how it works and what the dangers are in Harry being able to see the true identity of everyone in the castle.

Telchar II

07-18-2003, 12:57 AM

Thank you! I aim to please!

Voice is easy. It's a function of one's body: diaphragm, vocal cords, the resonators in the mouth and forehead. Change the body, change the voice.

Acting is medium difficult. Didn't you ever think that Snape was going a little over the top? Might this not be explained by James overcompensating -- overplaying the part?

Marauder's Map is tough. I grant you that.

Mithrildin

07-18-2003, 02:10 AM

Could someone (with a lot of time :D ) check on whether Snape appears on the Marauders Map?

Nice theory, Telchar - though I don't think it's what really happened. I think JKR would have given us more clues by now...

Kristin

07-18-2003, 03:41 AM

I believe he is shown pacing in his office at one point.

EDIT: Okay, here we go... From PoA, Chapter 14 "Snape's Grudge" -- Harry scanned the map carefully and saw, with a leap of relief, that the tiny dot labeled Severus Snape was now back in its office.

Elwen

07-18-2003, 06:36 AM

Well, well.... interesting thought experiment, Telchar. But I am afraid i would be highly dissatisfied with JKR if that were the solution. Too, well, contrived, I have to say.

I think dead people should be dead. Everything else is some sort of easy way out (and a bad idea in a children's book anyway, unless it is over the top as in fairy tales).

Fourth, this theory also explains what Elwen is so puzzled about: that Harry’s occlumency teacher seems, if anything, to want Harry to fail at occlumency, and not to succeed. This desire is natural, because if Harry were to succeed at occlumency with his teacher, Voldemort would succeed as well, and might find secrets in the teacher’s mind that should remain hidden.

That isn't quite right, by the way. There are two arts: occlumency and legillimency. I don't think that knowing occlumency well necessarily means being able to do legillimency as well. It is clear that Harry managed to get into Snape's mind at some point - more accidentally, it seems to me, than anything... (and probably because JKR was trying to foreshadow something - I wouldn't be surprised if we got to hear more about Snape's parents at some point).

For this reason alone I find your suggestion here unconvincing. Also, if Snape finds it dangerous to teach Harry he should either not have agreed to it in the first place or he should have made sure that Harry learned occlumency a bit more quickly. But I don't think that the theory about V being able to get into Snape's mind through harry works (although I do think he could have got to Snape's worst memory via Harry's memory).

Concerning the pensieve: I agree that the form of that memory is odd. It really seems that a pensieve memory contains things that the person who remembers did not actually consciously see - so I guess pensieves are also useful to understand your memories better. To be sure, theere was a lot in there that Snape could not have registered.... So this is odd, admittedly.

And back to my question above:
Well, we all agree that Snape nearly has to be the lapsed Death Eater mentioned by V at the end of GoF. Which means that my question about Malfoy's behaviour towards Snape remains puzzling. Malfoy can't seriously b elieve that Snape is on their side after what V has said.... :confused:

Elwen

lizz

07-18-2003, 07:30 AM

elwen, maybe my idea is true after all that Snape convinced Voldemort he is spying on Dumbledore. while really its the other way round. that would explain Mafloys behaviour, Voldemort not trying to kill Snape as he had said he would. although thats not really conclusive as we see Voldemort takes lots of time to do what he wants.

But the double agent is the only thing I can come up with that makes sense.

to the pensieve, maybe that is how it works, storing everything that happend. In GOF Harry didnt try to run around and stayed besides Dumbledore, so we dont really know.

Maybe snapes worst memory isnt really his worst memory, but one he really wanted to hide from harry. Snape does have a problem to see harry not as clone of James. Snape seemed to fear Harry would be gloating about this. And we dont know what else was hidden in the pensieve.

Interessting theory Telchar, but I dont think this is true. For one thing. Why should Snape have wanted to changes places with James? And James with Snape?And why should he have wanted or threatnd to kill Sirius in PoA. He knew Pettigrew was Secretkeeper. I dont think he wanted to kill his best friend because of a bad advice.

PhineasNigellus

07-18-2003, 09:05 AM

Gryffindor's first name was was Godric wasn't it? Juat like the place Lily and James lived....

Elwen

07-18-2003, 09:20 AM

Yes, that is interesting, isn't it? That their place was called Godric's Hollow....

There are still so many things we don't know about James & Lily Potter....

Lizz - I'd like that theory but I don't understand, in that case, why V said what he said. He was speaking to his followers, and the 'faithful servant' (or whatever he says) at Hogwarts was Barty Crouch Jr., as it turns out (I definitely thought at this point that he thought Snape to be on his side).

But as it is, why should V think that Snape is on his side and tell his Death Eaters otherwise (in just their company, not counting Harry who he expected to die)?

Perhaps I am simply not getting it....

Elwen

Telchar II

07-18-2003, 10:43 AM

OK, so I have a Marauder's Map problem. There is a possible explanation, as I said.

Lizz, the answer to your question is that James must at least partly think he is Snape. He's carrying all of Snape's memories around. If you had those memories, wouldn't you hate Sirius? I would.

I agree that my theory _could_ lead to a sappy, family-reunion ending, but it doesn't have to. Snape might die defending Harry, and only after that happens might Harry (and we ourselves) learn the truth. We would just be left in awe at the foresight and self-sacrifice of the earlier generation.

Seriphus

07-18-2003, 12:43 PM

Hey, great theory Telchar! Though that makes it harder for me to say that I'm not convinced. :)

The main problem for me is that it all rests on the fact that it's James' memory and not Snape's. While I agree that its a bit far-fetched for Harry to listen to the marauders instead of just seeing Snape, we don't know how the pensieve works. These are my thoughts on it that I posted at the other thread (sorry if anyone's read it already):

Obviously there's magic involved so the pensieve could kind of convert memories into the actual event, therefore instead of having to rely on your own memory you can go back and view what really happened. Which is sort of plausible because you have to recall a memory in the first place to put it in the pensieve so you wouldn't be able to drag up every event that ever happened in your life, only those that are readily available to your conscious mind. Our brains take in more information than we are aware of (the best example being when you react to some one saying your name even if you are in deep conversation with another person and haven't been paying attention to anything else the name-caller said) so it's quite plausible that information would be in Snape's mind from his surroundings that day i.e. he did hear everything, but only paid attention to some of it.

He says to Harry that he has to clear his mind, at the same time annoying Harry so much that this won't be easily possible...

Snape was clearly very irresponsible there and I can't see any other way of interpreting this. I just don't understand how anyone expected this to work if clearing your mind is so central to these lessons.... Well to be fair to Snape he told Harry to practice clearing his mind every night before he went to sleep. Harry didn't do this, which meant that he was partly to blame for not making it easily possible, with the exception of lesson 1.
And perhaps Snape didn't realise just how annoyed Harry would get at his comments. We saw how explosive Harry's temper was in this book. To a man in his late thirties, the idea that Harry would flare up so much at some feeble little jibes may have seemed ridiculous.
Really the operation was doomed from the start because Snape and Harry find it impossible to keep their emotions out of any situation that puts them together.

[because of what the memory might reveal to Voldemort], fundamentally, is why Harry is thrown out of occlumency lessons: because he is becoming a danger to his teacher. Or alternatively, because Snape is emotionally very fragile and Harry seeing his memory was too much for him. And, in the end, he lost patience with trying to teach someone who was just undermining his authority as a teacher.
why didn’t James’s death serve to protect Lily, as Dumbledore says that Lily’s death protected Harry? In other words, why didn’t Voldemort’s AK spell rebound to maim him when he cast it on Lily, before ever reaching Harry? Because Lily specifically gave her life to save Harry, whereas James died trying to protect them, but not sacrificing himself in the same way, if you take my meaning.JKR preferred to have James say “your mother wants to see you” because this was not a lie; the next figure to come out of the wand literally was Harry’s mother. But that was also a better order because Harry identifies more with his father than with his mother so he would probably have been thinking about James rather than Lily, which makes the line "because the man appearing was the one he'd thought of more than any other tonight..." make more sense.I think dead people should be dead. Everything else is some sort of easy way out Couldn't agree more. Here's my Snape question, which I've mentioned before, but don't feel like I have an answer: In GoF Sirius mentions that Snape was friends with a bunch of Slytherins that almost all turned out to be Death Eaters (including the Lestranges and Avery). In OotP in the Pensieve scene, it's implied that Snape doesn't have friends.

But he did have friends. So, where were they?
Maybe he's just a loner. He may have had lots of friends, but voluntarily spent most of his time on his own, thus giving other people the impression he didn't have friends. He probably had a more Malfoy-Crabbe-Goyle relationship with them than a Harry-Ron-Hermione friendship.

Mithrildin

07-18-2003, 01:36 PM

I don't think Snape is the kind of person to have a Malfoy-Crabbe/Goyle relationship. The latter are stupid, thick and muslcy tools that Draco uses as he pleases. He is not "friends" with them, he simply uses them as bodyguards. A symbiotic relation: Draco has the brains (more or less), money and power and Crabbe/Goyle protect him. Without Draco, nobody would pay attention to C/G and without C/G Ron would punch Draco's face in at anymore snide comments about his family. :D
I believe Snape is different: he trusts a selected circle of people, but he doesn't confide in them - he would probably die to save those who we calls friends, but he is not as open about it as Harry et al.

Pippin

07-18-2003, 02:04 PM

Posted by Kristin

In GoF Sirius mentions that Snape was friends with a bunch of Slytherins that almost all turned out to be Death Eaters (including the Lestranges and Avery). In OotP in the Pensieve scene, it's implied that Snape doesn't have friends. But he did have friends. So, where were they? Maybe he made friends with them later? Maybe he was kind of forced to join a “gang”, for protection against the Marauders?

I agree that Snape probably liked the "elite" idea about the DE, so maybe that´s what his "gang" was based on as well... not very Crabbe&Goyle like. On the other hand, the fathers of both Crabbe and Goyle ARE DE. Which shows that all elite groups need someone to do the dirty work, too.

You guys have been busy - so much to catch up on! :eek:

Posted by Seriphus

Perhaps when Dobby and Winky went to see Dumbledore about work Winky let slip something about Barty Crouch Jnr being alive? And Dumbledore did nothing about it for a whole YEAR? I don´t think so.

As for the DE knowing about each other, I agree that maybe not everyone knew about ALL the others. But I wouldn´t believe Karakaroff. He might only have been making up excuses why he hadn´t spoken up about the other DE earlier, and more fully. Look at this: 'Which was a wise move, wasn't it, as it prevented someone like you, Karkaroff, turning all of them in,' muttered Moody. Moody could be right.

Interestingly, when I first read this chapter I was quite convinced that Karkaroff´s mentioning Snape´s name was no more than a wild speculation on his part, and I was shocked to see Dumbledore confirming it.

Btw, ''Get on with it,' sneered Moody. :D I love this guy.

Cue Dumbledore revealing his DE membership badge in book 7. OH THE HORROR!!! :eek: I`d rather have one of Telchar´s theories prove true. ;)

Posted by Mithrildin

Snape also doesn't punish Draco for calling Hermione a Mudblood... But he never calls her a mudblood himself. Big difference.

Posted by Colli

they're in Azkaban, being guarded by... no one. Gosh how pointless.

Quoted by Colli

"Potter!"

The voice rang across the entrance hall; Snape had emerged from the staircase leading down to his office, and at the sight of him Harry felt a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt toward Malfoy.... Whatever Dumbledore said, he would never forgive Snape.... never... Oh, this annoys me. Never forgive Snape for WHAT? For cancelling Occlumency lessons? For taunting Sirius about being stuck in the house whith no chance to display some heroism?

Just to clear up what Voldemort says about the three missing DE in the graveyard scene in GoF (paraphrased):

One, to cowardly to return – he will be punished.

One who has left the DE forever – he will be killed.

His most faithful servant, currently in Hogwarts and being largely responsible for making Voldemort’s return possible – he will be honoured beyond his dreams.

Tell me, how can you read this in ANY other way than Karkaroff – Snape – Crouch jr?

Snape is NOT the “most faithful servant” – even assuming he´s still a DE and working against Dumbledore, the one that made Voldemort´s return possible WAS Crouch.

There is no fourth person involved here. Or is there?

Do we KNOW Snape was NOT in the graveyard scene in GoF, btw? :eek:

Posted by Elwen

Surely, V's reference would be intelligible to someone as knowledgeable as Malfoy - in any case, Malfoy nearly has to know that Snape is/was a death eater and he should wonder about Snape not being there.
Your “nearly” is interesting here. Let´s just assume for a moment that Malfoy never knew Snape was a DE, unlikely though it may be. If Malfoy found out that Snape was “sympathising” (as in, pretending to) with Voldemort´s cause (which Snape clearly wants him to believe, “favouring” Draco etc.), wouldn´t he *tell* Voldemort? Just how useful would one of Harry´s Hogwarts teachers be on Voldemort´s side? And just how quickly would Snape be dead once Voldemort knew the traitor from back then was trying to worm his way back into the DE?

It all boils down to this:

EITHER what Snape is doing for the Order is so secret that he never comes face to face with ANY of the DE, let alone Voldemort, who would instantly be suspicious – but I don´t see how he could be of much use for the Order that way. (And he tells Harry after all that it´s his “job” to find out what Voldemort tells his DE.)

OR he´s been officially accepted back into their ranks (Lizz`s theory) – which I can´t see Voldemort agreeing to, at least not without exerting some Voldemort-style punishment that I can´t see anyone walking into, open-eyed and voluntarily. :eek: by Elwen

But as it is, why should V think that Snape is on his side and tell his Death Eaters otherwise (in just their company, not counting Harry who he expected to die)? I think Lizz´s theory is that he re-joined them later… made excuses for not coming to the graveyeard (after all, Crouch didn´t, either – why, I wonder?) and somehow persuaded Voldemort that he´d still be useful as a DE…

OR maybe Snape is keeping Karkaroff locked in a trunk and went back to the DE in the form of a Polyjuiced Karkaroff? Telchar? :D

As for the Occlumency lessons, they were just bound to go wrong, weren´t they?

I´m quite angry with Snape for not getting over his own grudges for once and just teach Harry properly. He knew how important it was for him to stop having those dreams.

But I see this as a sort of foreshadowing. Snape´s grudges seem to be getting in the way of the good cause quite often! Think of PoA, if Snape´s grudge hadn´t got in the way then, maybe Pettigrew wouldn´t have escaped.

I maintain that one day, we will Snape facing the same situation in some extreme form: Satisfy his personal thirst for revenge OR help saving the world. It´ll be interesting to see what his choice will be.

Dumbledore told Harry that after alerting some of the members of the Order and after making sure Sirius was alive and safe back in Grimmauld Place, Snape wanted to look for Harry in the Forbidden Forest. how exactly he knew of Harry's whereabouts, i'm still not clear on that, especially since Snape left Umbdridge's office before Hermione led Harry and Umbridge to the forestI think he must have gone back to the office and found the Inquisitorial Squad (badly hexed and jinxed :D) telling him that the DA members had gone into the forest with Umbridge. He then went after them but it was too late. (Which means he took a very long time to get back from alerting the Order. :confused: )

What, I´m over the word count again? :rolleyes:

Pippin

07-18-2003, 02:06 PM

Now, Telchar. I will not go into much detail here, but some thoughts on your theory:

It is (like the one you had about Sirius and Bellatrix) based on the assumption that there is a spell to magically change into the body of a different person. I see not one shred of evidence for this in the whole series. We hear of “switching spells”, but never in connection with humans, and they might mean nothing more spectacular than two objects switching places or something.

And even if you could switch into another person’s body, would you switch into their individual skills and abilities, too? (Thinking of Snape being brilliant at Potions and Occlumency here.)

If yes, I´m sorry, but this would go so far into messing with people´s identities that I just can´t see JKR writing anything like it and still wanting people to believe it, or even be able to follow.

James must at least partly think he is Snape. He's carrying all of Snape's memories around. If you had those memories, wouldn't you hate Sirius? I would. That´s what I mean. I can´t see JKR messing so much with her character´s identities. The trouble is, once you´ve invented a fictional character, how do you make it clear to your readers what is “in character” for them and what isn´t?

There is something odd about the way the Pensieve reveals things that Snape can´t have consciously remembered. But then, the only other Pensieve memory we´ve ever seen is the trial in GoF, and Harry was forced to be stationary next to Dumbledore then. He might have seen or heard different things if he´d have dared to move.

On the whole, I think it is more likely that JKR was being inconsistent here for narrative purposes, rather than to point out to us that the memory itself can´t have been a normal memory.

Fifth, this danger elegantly explains why Harry’s occlumency teacher puts this flawed, and therefore dangerous, memory in the Pensieve before engaging with Harry’s mind. Note that other shameful childhood memories are not in the Pensieve, but this one is. Why? Because this one is different from the others, in that it gives away the fact of memory modification.No. The way the “glimpses” into each others minds seem to work in the Occlumency lesson, you´d never get the chance to “enter” the persons memory and walk around in it and listen to other people talking. That’s not the way Legilimency works. This is different with the Pensieve, obviously. So if Snape didn’t want anyone to see the “flaw” of the memory, the best thing would have been to keep it in his head, rather than putting it into the Pensieve, because only watching it in the Pensieve would reveal the flaw at all.

If Voldemort (through Harry) wasn´t supposed to see the “planted” memory, why plant it at all?

As for Dumbledore telling Harry “everything”, of course I don´t believe it was “everything”. But maybe it is indeed everything Dumbledore knows! Maybe even he doesn´t know the deeper reason why Harry is the only one that will be able to defeat Voldemort. Maybe he himself will be surprised once it´s revealed (by whom, though?). Or maybe he´s guessing, but he doesn´t know it yet, or has no proof.

Posted by Colli

I think James would have to be a brilliant actor to pretend to hate his son and best friends. AND there would be no necessity for that, either. He could have acted humourless, sarcastic, impatient, Slytherin favouring, whatever else people would expect from “Snape”, but the way he treats Harry is so bad it´s very unlikely just pretended. I mean, he´s traumatising, really – would a father do that to his son if it wasn´t absolutely necessary?

Posted by lizz

And we dont know what else was hidden in the pensieve. I think this is the far more interesting question. Two more “worst memories”… memories of what, I wonder? And why two?

swiftsnowmane

07-18-2003, 02:25 PM

It is odd that we see/hear things that are not directly from Snape's point of view. However, I really think that JKR was just using this "worst" memory as a way to show us a different, nastier side of the Marauders, more so than to reveal anything new about dear Snivellus.;) We also don't know enough about how the pensieve works to really divine anything from Harry's experiences. Remember....Tom Riddle's diary was not a pensieve, but a tool of Voldemort to make Harry believe Riddle's point of view and to sympathize with him. The pensieve does work similarly to the diary, but we have yet to see just how biased/unbiased the memories really are....

We want more pensieve!!!:D

Lembas

07-18-2003, 03:18 PM

And Dumbledore did nothing about it for a whole YEAR? I don´t think so.

I have a theory! Dobby and Winky did let it slip to Dumbledore and he did nothing for a year, because...wait for it...He's a HOUSE ELF! No wait, wait! Go back to PS or SS, whichever you please, and see the conversation between Harry and Dumbledore while leaving the Mirror of Erised behind.

"What do you see when you look in the mirror?"

"I? I see myself holding a pair of thick, woolen socks."

Harry stared.

One can never have enough socks," said Dumbledore. "Another Christmas has come and gone and I didn't get a single pair. People will insist on giving me books."

There you have it! Proof that Dumbledore is a House Elf! He wants socks to be set free. And I think he's really Dobby's brother, also. Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. For a moment or so. :D ;) I kid! I kid! :)

Kristin

07-18-2003, 04:53 PM

:clap: :D

That was fantastic, Lembas!!! I'm kind of in a blue mood today, and that's the first thing that's made me smile (and laugh) all day!

I always wondered why Dumbledore was so eager to have socks. Now I know! :LOL:

Elwen

07-18-2003, 05:30 PM

*great* theory, Lembas :D

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

I still don't believe that Dumbledore knew about Crouch's Moody impression early on. No way that he would have told 'Moody' to teach the kids the unforgoiveable curses if he had known him as a death eater in disguise...

I think that the evidence was slowly mounting up and Dumbledore was the first to put two and two together as everything came to a head....

Pippin, still on the issue of the death eater who has left Voldemort...

Yet another thing I don't get: if V thinks he has left for ever - why did he not name that person? Surely, he would want his death Eaters to hunt him down?

Sorry for harping on about this buit I simply think that this part of the story has some holes in it and it really makes a difference to what we might think about Snape's role (although I don't believe that he is still on V's side).

Elwen

Lembas

07-18-2003, 05:41 PM

"Thank you! Thank you! You're beautiful! I'll be here all week!" ;)

Moxie

07-18-2003, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
OR maybe Snape is keeping Karkaroff locked in a trunk and went back to the DE in the form of a Polyjuiced Karkaroff?

For starters, Voldemort passes some of the DEs in the graveyard without saying anything, so yes, that leaves open a possibility that Snape was among them, as himself. (Anyone who was at Hogwarts has an excuse for Apparating in late, since one can't Apparate directly to or from Hogwarts grounds, as Hermione reminds us on several occasions. :rolleyes:;))

As for the "Polyjuiced Karkaroff" theory, "Polyjuiced Crouch Jr." initially seems much more likely - Crouch Jr.'s body presumably remained alive though vegetative after the Dementor's Kiss, and Snape would certainly be able to harvest body parts for Polyjuice as needed (though he'd have to rely on his memories of pre-Azkaban Barty to act the part). Crouch Jr. has no living family members that we know of, to tell the difference between the real article and an impostor (so far we don't know if any other DEs were close enough to him to tell the difference; Crouch's colleagues in the Longbottoms' torture were at least a few years older and may or may not have attended Hogwarts at the same time as him). However, "Polyjuiced Crouch" has one probably fatal flaw; Macnair worked at the Ministry and Lucius Malfoy was on cozy terms with Cornelius Fudge, so unless Fudge took extreme measures to keep Crouch Jr.'s fate secret (which he might have, to spare the scandal of another known escape from Azkaban, but I doubt he'd keep the secret even from Lucius) one or both of those two know, and thus Voldemort knows. Ah, well.

Telchar II

07-18-2003, 07:50 PM

posted by Pippin
It is (like the one you had about Sirius and Bellatrix) based on the assumption that there is a spell to magically change into the body of a different person. I see not one shred of evidence for this in the whole series. We hear of “switching spells”, but never in connection with humans, and they might mean nothing more spectacular than two objects switching places or something.

First, we know -- or at least we are told -- that James and Sirius were the best in the school at whatever they did. And to whatever extent we can believe Snape's worst memory, it shows Sirius blithely dismissing taking another look at a transfiguration textbook because he "knows all that stuff." I think Sirius and James were transfiguration experts.

This also could justify James being good at potions and occlumency. Remember that Lupin reads Harry's mind all the time, but Lupin himself says that James was a better wizard than he was -- or, for that matter, than Snape was.

Second, switching spells are only one of a whole range of transfiguration devices that we have to deal with: Polyjuice potion, metamorphmagism, animagism, were-ism, and whatever Tonks is referring to when she says that most wizards need to use wands in order to change their appearance. (We still don't really know what she is referring to there.)

posted by Pippin
That´s what I mean. I can´t see JKR messing so much with her character´s identities. The trouble is, once you´ve invented a fictional character, how do you make it clear to your readers what is “in character” for them and what isn´t?

I'm sorry, but which author are we talking about? Are you seriously saying that J.K. Rowling doesn't mess with characters' identities? I'll admit that Quirrell/Voldemort, Jenny/Riddle, Crouch the dep't head/the imperius'd zombie, Sirius the villain/the godfather, Pettigrew/Scabbers, and Moody/Crouch Jr. were somewhat smaller-scale than what I'm dreaming up. But this is J.K. Rowling we're talking about.

She's messing with characters all the time; identity is extremely fluid for her, and there's all sorts of shape-shifting going on. There is little I would put past her at this stage, particularly if it has some evidence to back it up, which I have tried to provide. She has to be saving the biggest trick of all for the last book. I'm just trying to guess what it is.

And to respond more specifically to the changing identiites issue, this might be an objection to my Bellatrix/Sirius theory, but it is no objection at all to my James/Snape theory, because that theory presupposes that Snape has been James all along, with the possible exception of what we see in "Snape's worst memory." Therefore there is no identity change; there's just a complex transfiguration spell and memory charm that has remained the same throughout the storyline thus far.

posted by Pippin
No. The way the “glimpses” into each others minds seem to work in the Occlumency lesson, you´d never get the chance to “enter” the persons memory and walk around in it and listen to other people talking. That’s not the way Legilimency works. This is different with the Pensieve, obviously. So if Snape didn’t want anyone to see the “flaw” of the memory, the best thing would have been to keep it in his head, rather than putting it into the Pensieve, because only watching it in the Pensieve would reveal the flaw at all.

I'm not sure you're right about legilimency -- I wouldn't base our impression of it on what Harry, who can't control what he's doing, manages to do in a few seconds. Dumbledore, on the other hand, seems to be able to extract specific information from Kreacher pretty quickly. And I suspect that Crouch Jr. might have done this to the real Mad-Eye -- surveyed his memories in order to impersonate him better.

And even if you are right about the nature of legilimency, all it would take is a second -- the legilimens seeing the "worst memory" scene from a Marauder's perspective while also noticing Snape off by the bush reading his exam paper. A trained legilimens might notice the problems extremely quickly.

Lastly, I don't assume that my theory requires that "Snape" know that he is really James. I'm not sure on that point; he might really think that he is Snape. If the point is to preserve the Potter bloodline, you might be willing to take drastic measures.

Telchar II

07-18-2003, 11:27 PM

I'm just full of wacky ideas tonight.

Severus Snape, spelled backwards, is Epans Sureves. That's very close to "Evans Survives."

Mirdan

07-19-2003, 05:29 AM

Severus Snape, spelled backwards, is Epans Sureves. That's very close to "Evans Survives."well there you go...following Telchar's theory, instead of James maybe "Snape" really is Lily! :eek: :D

there's a lot of information back there, especially with the shocking yet riveting theory about Dumbledore who might just be a House-Elf in disguise ( :LOL: ), but anyways, i'm not sure if JKR intended for the HP series to be any more complex that it already is turning out to be...and i hate to say it, but that theory on whether or not Snape and James switched identities and memories remind me a lot of Star Wars! you know...Luke Skywalker (Harry Potter) fights with his enemy Darth Vader (Severus Snape) who turns out to be his father Anakin (James Potter) that turned to the Dark Side and allied himself with The Emperor (Lord Voldemort)...

alright, alright. i'll do it for you: :trout: :trout: :D

but anyways, what would you make of the Dark Mark? i thought Voldemort was the only one who can put that on his followers. if James and Snape did switch places, and James transfigured himself to look like Snape, would that transformation have also included the Dark mark that isn't fundamentally part of Snape? besides, in GoF Snape tells Fudge that he could feel the Dark Mark's burn, a sure sign that Voldemort was back and was summoning his followers. if James transfigured himself to physically look like Snape, and he was also able to include the Dark Mark, would the Dark Mark then work the same way as it does with the real Snape even if Voldemort wasn't the one that put it on "Snape" (James)? because to me, if James was able to replicate the mark on his own wrist, it wouldn't work at all; it'd probably just look like a tattoo, but without the dark magic that is intrinsic with the nature of the Dark Mark.

lizz

07-19-2003, 10:52 AM

I love dumbledore is a house elf :cool: :clap:
But that leaves the question who is his master. :D

by pippin
OR he´s been officially accepted back into their ranks (Lizz`s theory) – which I can´t see Voldemort agreeing to, at least not without exerting some Voldemort-style punishment that I can´t see anyone walking into, open-eyed and voluntarily.

I dont really have a theory, I just think its a possiblity, snape telling Voldemort he wants to conintue spying on Dumbledore and Voldemort accepts.
to the punishment as far as we know maloy did get away without punishment and was obviosly in charge at the ministry. (unless the other Death Eaters just followed him not be able to blame everythign on him in case something went wrong.;) )

Seriphus

07-19-2003, 03:13 PM

I don't think Snape is the kind of person to have a Malfoy-Crabbe/Goyle relationship. The latter are stupid, thick and muslcy tools that Draco uses as he pleases. He is not "friends" with them, he simply uses them as bodyguards. No, you're right. It was a bad example.
What I meant was more that Snape may not have had 'real' friends in the way that, say, Ron is a 'real' friend to Harry. His relationship with other Slytherins may have been of the type where each person has mutual benefits from being 'friends', such as protection, but, as you say, doesn't confide in them or have a particularly special bond with them. And I see Snape more as following than leading, although with more independence than Crabbe or Goyle has.

Perhaps when Dobby and Winky went to see Dumbledore about work Winky let slip something about Barty Crouch Jnr being alive?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Dumbledore did nothing about it for a whole YEAR? I don´t think so. OK, so I know it's not that plausible, but it's not as crazy as you make it sound. :)
Winky was dismissed by Barty Crouch Snr after the Quidditch World Cup, before Voldemort came a calling. So she couldn't have told Dumbledore that Crouch Jnr was posing as Moody, was the 'most faithful servant' or even that he was in contact with Voldy. All she could have told him was that Crouch Jnr was in fact alive and that his father kept him under the imperious curse. Dumbledore tells Harry in GoF that he doesn't know for sure whether Crouch Jnr really had something to do with the attack on the Longbottoms, so he's probably not such a huge threat. No more than, say, Lucius Malfoy. So Dumbledore could stay alert to the fact that he's alive, even suspect him to be the imposter after the third task, but not be overly alarmed at first hearing he's alive.

I have a theory! Dobby and Winky did let it slip to Dumbledore and he did nothing for a year, because...wait for it...He's a HOUSE ELF! Ah, that explains everything! Now this is a theory I can believe! ;) :LOL:

Pippin

07-19-2003, 05:57 PM

Posted by Lembas

I have a theory! Dumbledore is a House Elf! :rotfl: “ I'll be here all week!" I hope so! :D

Posted by Telchar II

whatever Tonks is referring to when she says that most wizards need to use wands in order to change their appearance. (We still don't really know what she is referring to there.) I´ll grant you that – we don´t know. And of course, we'd better keep that piece of information in mind.

Are you seriously saying that J.K. Rowling doesn't mess with characters' identities?
…
Quirrell/Voldemort, Jenny/Riddle, Crouch the dep't head/the imperius'd zombie, Sirius the villain/the godfather, Pettigrew/Scabbers, and Moody/Crouch Jr. That´s quite true – JKR uses the “people not being what they appear to be” motive a lot. She also uses the “messing with minds” concept (Ginny/Riddle and the Imperius curse).
But she hasn´t used two of them together yet – and I don´t think I´d buy it if she did it (again).

I don't assume that my theory requires that "Snape" know that he is really James. I'm not sure on that point; he might really think that he is Snape. That´s what I meant about messing with identities – the “inner” identity, or the soul of a person, whatever you want to call it. In your theory, you wouldn´t really be able to tell whether the person was James or Snape any longer. It goes to the very heart of the question what makes you who you are. It´s a scary and disturbing topic. She´s messing with the sidelines of the question (is it your appearance? it it your free will?) but I don´t think she´ll go to the heart of the matter like that.

She has to be saving the biggest trick of all for the last book. I'm just trying to guess what it is. That´s what we´re all doing. Perfectly legitimate. :)

by Swifty
However, I really think that JKR was just using this "worst" memory as a way to show us a different, nastier side of the Marauders, more so than to reveal anything new about dear Snivellus. That`s true. We´re just so Snape focussed in here we keep wondering what the REALLY new information in this scene is. Think of it from the POV of analysing the Marauders, it´s of course revolutionary. we have yet to see just how biased/unbiased the memories really are.... Well said. Although I wouldn´t like to find out that we can´t trust them at all - but we shouldn´t take them at face value too easily.

by Elwen

Sorry for harping on about this but I simply think that this part of the story has some holes in it and it really makes a difference to what we might think about Snape's role (although I don't believe that he is still on V's side). You´re right there Elwen, so keep harping on about it. ;)

Yet another thing I don't get: if V thinks he has left for ever - why did he not name that person? Surely, he would want his death Eaters to hunt him down? I read it like Voldemort says these lines with something like a very malicious grin – a “you all know who I´m talking about” grin.

by Lizz
to the punishment as far as we know malfoy did get away without punishment and was obviosly in charge at the ministry. Yes, but look at what happened to Avery just for messing up the Imperius curse on the Ministry worker Bane. It´s just scary.

Posted by Moxie

For starters, Voldemort passes some of the DEs in the graveyard without saying anything, so yes, that leaves open a possibility that Snape was among them, as himself. Well, if he´s secretly on the bad side after all, I could accept that he was there. If he is on the good side, I really can´t see him going there and watching Voldemort torture and kill Harry without doing anything. In spite of being Snape. I mean it wasn´t clear at all that Harry would be able to escape.

As for the "Polyjuiced Karkaroff" theory, "Polyjuiced Crouch Jr." initially seems much more likely - Crouch Jr.'s body presumably remained alive though vegetative after the Dementor's Kiss, and Snape would certainly be able to harvest body parts for Polyjuice as needed (though he'd have to rely on his memories of pre-Azkaban Barty to act the part). Crouch Jr. has no living family members that we know of, to tell the difference between the real article and an impostor ... I wasn´t being serious about “Polyjuiced Karkaroff”, of course – but “Polyjuiced Crouch” sounds frightfully plausible! He´s still alive biologically, I suppose. But could Snape change into a *healthy* Crouch once Crouch had been “demented”? And wouldn´t the “most faithful servant” have been at the Dept. of Mysteries fight? Would Snape as Crouch have let things with the Prophecy come so far at all?

so unless Fudge took extreme measures to keep Crouch Jr.'s fate secret (which he might have, to spare the scandal of another known escape from Azkaban, but I doubt he'd keep the secret even from Lucius) one or both of those two know, and thus Voldemort knows. Yes, I´m afraid that settles it. Great thought experiment anyway, Moxie. :)

by Serphy
Winky was dismissed by Barty Crouch Snr after the Quidditch World Cup, before Voldemort came a calling. So she couldn't have told Dumbledore that Crouch Jnr was posing as Moody, was the 'most faithful servant' or even that he was in contact with Voldy. All she could have told him was that Crouch Jnr was in fact alive and that his father kept him under the imperious curse. That´s of course true, Serphy! I´m very sorry, I didn´t think it through before my last post. :o I´m sorry, you´re right. :) It does make sense that way. It´s the “missing link” that explains why Dumbledore summons Winky straight away – he´s only just realised what´s going on, but he´s very quickly putting two and two together (he later says he realised it the moment “Moody” disappeared from the scene with Harry, just when he´d got back to the maze).

I also agree with your assessment of the kind of "friendship" in the Slytherin gang back then. Probably based on hierarchies, leaders and followers, not unlike the DE themselves.

KillerBunny

07-19-2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
And wouldn´t the “most faithful servant” have been at the Dept. of Mysteries fight? Would Snape as Crouch have let things with the Prophecy come so far at all?

Well, he could've been, right? Dumbledore only said that Snape INTENDED to search the forest for Harry... he could very well have taken the potion and joined the Death Eaters somehow... of course, there are probably quite a few things that could be wrong with that, and if anyone has evidence to disprove it, let me know...

Elwen

07-19-2003, 09:38 PM

(by Pippin)

You´re right there Elwen, so keep harping on about it.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet another thing I don't get: if V thinks he has left for ever - why did he not name that person? Surely, he would want his death Eaters to hunt him down?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read it like Voldemort says these lines with something like a very malicious grin – a “you all know who I´m talking about” grin.

Well, I am harping on about it, then....

Because if V wants the Death Eaters to know (or knows that they know) then Snape should have heard from one of them by now... and he hasn't. Actually, it seems that Snape's relations with some shady characters works as well as ever, or am I mistaken there?

As I say - however you twist it it doesn't make sense ...

<shrugs>

Elwen

lizz

07-20-2003, 10:28 AM

he could very well have taken the potion and joined the Death Eaters somehow...

But he wasnt mentioned. I didnt count them but I think every deatheater was mentioned by name.

Telchar II

07-21-2003, 09:53 AM

Mirdan -- Good Q about the dark mark. I don't know how to explain that.

Best I can do, and I'm away from my books, is this: what did Hermione use to alert all the DA to the time and day of the next meeting? Was that a charm? If so, perhaps it's possible that Lily -- a charms expert -- transferred the mark from Snape to James?

As for "Evans Survives" -- no, I don't really believe it. But it's something to consider nonetheless.

I reread the SWM chapter again last night and am more convinced than ever that the conversation among the Marauders is not something that the real Severus Snape (at least as shown in that memory) could have perceived. So if not him, who? Either it's someone else's memory put into the real Snape, or Snape isn't really Snape.

Pippin, I think you've unintentionally supported my argument. If JKR has not used false-appearance and messing-with-minds concepts together so far, then perhaps this the surprise in book 7. They have to be put together somehow, it seems to me. The surprise that she is building up to has to be a capstone of what we've been learning about magic -- a synthesis of a lot of the techniques and devices we have seen so far. This is one of the reasons why I'm trying to be ambitiously creative in thinking of what she might be up to. The problem, of course, is that one can think up almost anything. :o :cool:

Gee, perhaps I'd better factor time travel in somehow.... :eek:

Another thing: in some ways, I've been assuming that whatever grand surprise is waiting for us in book 7 must be a carefully-thought-out plan that only now is reaching fruition. It seems to me that this is not necessarily the case. We need to make allowances for a couple themes: (1) the good guys' plans can go badly wrong -- like giving the secret to Pettigrew; (2) Dumbledore, for one, is good at thinking up solutions on the fly (he explained Mr. Weasley's presence somehow -- but how?); and (3) attempts at damage control under pressure can have unforseen long-term consequences (such as the memory modifications of Bertha giving Voldemort, eventually, all he needed to attack Harry).

All this makes guessing what JKR :notworthy is up to even more confusing, of course.... :D

Kristin

07-21-2003, 02:51 PM

The idea that Snape is someone else in disguise is an interesting one. And it hints at a basic concept that might turn out to be true: that Snape is not exactly who we think he is.

As for the wild theories, I find them entertaining to think about, even if I don't think they'll actually happen. And of course, they're just as likely to happen as the many simple, obvious theories we've come up with (many of which aren't true).

Seriphus

07-21-2003, 05:02 PM

This is one of the reasons why I'm trying to be ambitiously creative in thinking of what she might be up to. The problem, of course, is that one can think up almost anything.

Gee, perhaps I'd better factor time travel in somehow.... :LOL: Of course the more plausible, and therefore guessable, a theory, the less likely it is to be true. ;)

This question of Snape's role and relationship with the DEs is starting to confuse me. 'My brain hurts.'

This is what Voldy says:

'And here we have six missing Death Eaters ... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me for ever ... he will be killed, of course ... and one who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service.' (GoF, chpt 33, The Death Eaters)

So, assuming Snape is the one who's left for ever, which seems the only possible scenario with what we know, then Voldemort knows he has switched sides. So can we rule out him pretending that he, Severus Snape, has 'rejoined' the DE? I'd say we can.

Turning up in disguise?

He walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others, and spoke to them'(GoF, chpt 33, The Death Eaters)

So Voldemort doesn't mention the names of all the DEs. But then how would Snape disguise himself and who as? A couple of possibilities have already been ruled out, and I think it would be far too dangerous a mission for him, especially as Voldy seems to be able to identify each DE even though they are hooded and masked. Or is that because they're in 'their' places in the circle?Your “nearly” is interesting here. Let´s just assume for a moment that Malfoy never knew Snape was a DE, unlikely though it may be. If Malfoy found out that Snape was “sympathising” (as in, pretending to) with Voldemort´s cause (which Snape clearly wants him to believe, “favouring” Draco etc.), wouldn´t he *tell* Voldemort? Just how useful would one of Harry´s Hogwarts teachers be on Voldemort´s side? And just how quickly would Snape be dead once Voldemort knew the traitor from back then was trying to worm his way back into the DE? I'm beginning to wonder whether we're jumping to conclusions with regards to Lucius knowing Snape was a DE. Is there actually anything to suggest that they are indeed good friends? Lucius holds Snape in high regard, but is that because he knows Snape is a DE or because Snape is head of Slytherin, 'wants' the DADA job and hates Harry Potter?
Your point about Lucius telling Voldy of a sympathiser is a tricky one to get over, though. The only thing I can think of to counter it would be that Lucius is worried about being exposed and if he'd got it wrong about one of Dumbledore's teachers being in league with Voldemort it could possibly backfire on him and reveal his Death Eating tendencies. But that's a pretty flimsy hypothesis.

I agree with Elwen, it doesn't seem to work any way. :rolleyes:

Pippin

07-21-2003, 07:45 PM

Posted by KillerBunny

Dumbledore only said that Snape INTENDED to search the forest for Harry... That’s quite true. We´re never told that he actually did. He just intended to, and later on deduced from the fact that the kids hadn´t got back from it that they´d gone to the Ministry. But he was still in contact with the Order by then, not going about his own secret business.

Posted by Elwen

if V wants the Death Eaters to know (or knows that they know) then Snape should have heard from one of them by now... and he hasn't. Actually, it seems that Snape's relations with some shady characters works as well as ever, or am I mistaken there? Well, we just don´t know, do we? We haven´t ever seen Snape in one scene with any of the DE! As for having heard from them (what a great euphemism :D) I don´t think DE go about killing their enemies without a direct order.

Posted by Telchar

I reread the SWM chapter again last night and am more convinced than ever that the conversation among the Marauders is not something that the real Severus Snape (at least as shown in that memory) could have perceived. So if not him, who? Either it's someone else's memory put into the real Snape, or Snape isn't really Snape. Or that´s just how the Pensieve works, the way Serphy and KB have described above. Which I still think is the more likely explanation.

Pippin, I think you've unintentionally supported my argument. If JKR has not used false-appearance and messing-with-minds concepts together so far, then perhaps this the surprise in book 7. They have to be put together somehow, it seems to me. I don’t think I was supporting your argument. Let me try again: I meant that even if JKR touches on these deep and tricky issues, it´s not at all inevitable that she should go the whole way with them, and put them all together.
Along the same lines, the fact that a writer puts her heroes in mortal danger at least once in each book of the series does not at all mean that the series have to end with the character being killed in the end. She touches on the issue, and it adds greatly to the plot, the suspense, the character development, whatever – a means to an end, at any rate. Same with the “identity” issue. It might be a means to an end, as far as she´s employing it, and nothing more.

I mean, it´s true, a lot of these books is searching for your identity – Harry not knowing he´s a wizard, Harry not knowing his parents, Harry trying to figure out where he belongs (and Harry´s not the only character that has these issues). But that´s a very different kind of identity issue, an emotional one, not a magical one. (And I can´t help it, I find the emotional part of it so much more interesting than the magical stuff!)
I've been assuming that whatever grand surprise is waiting for us in book 7 must be a carefully-thought-out plan that only now is reaching fruition. It seems to me that this is not necessarily the case. We need to make allowances for a couple themes: (1) the good guys' plans can go badly wrong (2) Dumbledore, for one, is good at thinking up solutions on the fly and (3) attempts at damage control under pressure can have unforseen long-term consequences That´s a great analysis. :D

Posted by Kristin
The idea that Snape is someone else in disguise is an interesting one. And it hints at a basic concept that might turn out to be true: that Snape is not exactly who we think he is. Yes, but Snape can be not exactly who we think it is and still be Snape, can´t he? (Can you tell I just really want him to be? :o)

Posted by Seriphus

So, assuming Snape is the one who's left for ever, which seems the only possible scenario with what we know, then Voldemort knows he has switched sides. So can we rule out him pretending that he, Severus Snape, has 'rejoined' the DE? I'd say we can. Can we? I don´t think so – after all, he has given people second chances before. Particularly when they were important to him. Even when they´ve messed things up. The best example being Lucius Malfoy – he might mess things up, but he´s also the one with the money and the connections in the respectable wizarding world and Voldemort needs him. He might need Snape for similar reasons (spying on Dumbledore, getting his hands on Harry), and he might be willing to take him back for that. I just thought it would be unlikely because Snape seems to have done slightly more damage to Voldemort’s cause than messing up missions into the Ministry.

Snape and Lucius Malfoy:

Is there actually anything to suggest that they are indeed good friends? Lucius holds Snape in high regard, but is that because he knows Snape is a DE or because Snape is head of Slytherin, 'wants' the DADA job and hates Harry Potter? Could be any of it, really. I agree the last three things combined would be sufficient reason.

The one situation that I can see is that Snape somehow made the DE believe from the start, meaning from the moment he secretly changed sides, that he was still on theirs. That the whole “undermining the DE” concept has been there from the start. That Dumbledore and Snape have been keeping up the illusion for all these years.

I think that´s more plausible (at least it would be more plausible for me, looking at Snape from Voldemort´s POV) than Snape openly being Dumbledore´s good boy for years and then suddenly pretending to remember at the end of GoF that he´d rather be a DE again (even if he could offer valuable services and skills).

Death Eating tendencies. I know why I think the term Death Eater is somehow funny. :D

Re: the relationship between Harry and Snape, here´s an interesting quote from the “everything” (:rolleyes: ) chapter in OotP:

Dumbledore: “But I forgot – another old man’s mistake – that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought that Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I was wrong.”
Is anyone else slightly worried about this? Does it mean the matter is settled?

Do we really have to read it as Dumbledore has given up on Snape? Does it mean that WE have to give up on seeing some sort of reconciliation (no matter how exactly we picture it)? Can there be a satisfying reconciliation that does NOT include healing what can´t be healed?

Do you think Dumbledore is speaking an absolute truth about Snape here, or will Snape still surprise us all by proving Dumbledore wrong?

Kristin

07-21-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Yes, but Snape can be not exactly who we think it is and still be Snape, can´t he? (Can you tell I just really want him to be? :o)

Oh, I didn't mean that Snape isn't Snape. I just mean that we can't take any "truths" about him for granted, because there could well be revelations about him or his personality.

He's such a complex character that you never know really who he is. Snape is Snape, but it's less obvious what that means exactly. (Am I making sense at all? :o)

I admit that I'm confused as to Snape's role with the Death Eaters. I assumed Voldemort to be talking about Snape as the one who had left forever.

I don't believe Snape was at the first DE reunion. Firstly, because he was at Hogwarts meaning that he couldn't Apparate and also that his disappearance would arouse suspicion. Secondly, if he had rejoined the DE, it would have been of his own choice (whether for good or evil purpose), rather than at Dumbledore's behest.

So what has Snape been doing with the Order of the Phoenix and the Death Eaters? I'm rather disappointed that we got basically no information in Book 5.

Telchar II

07-21-2003, 08:54 PM

I don't have much to add on the Snape-Dumbledore issue, or the what-the-heck-is-Snape-up-to-with-the-Death-Eaters question. But some responses to Pippin:

Thanks for your compliment re my "analysis." I'm not sure it was an analysis -- it was more a confession that I think I may have been too neat in my guesses about JKR's plotting. If, at the end of book 7, the big surprise turns out to be something that Dumbledore planned in secret and then carried out in relative peace and quiet over the years, with 100% success, you will be able to knock me over with a feather.

I think there are two key time periods we have to think about. First of course is the attack on Godric's Hollow and the immediate, 24-hour aftermath, about which we still know very little indeed. But the notion that Dumbledore sent Hagrid alone to pick up the Boy Who Lived while the Death Eaters were rampaging around the country, enraged at the disappearance of their master, makes no sense at all. There has to have been a lot going on just before page 1 of book 1. Must put on my thinking cap -- and see whether you all like what I dream up. :D :p

The other time period, however, is perhaps 10 days (a week?) before the attack on Godric's Hollow, when the Fidelius Charm is put into effect and the Potters are hidden. James and Sirius think they're being clever by entrusting the secret to Peter. But they don't tell anyone. And Dumbledore, Lily, and Snape, to mention the chief three other possibilities, are also concerned, and doubtless take steps of their own. But what steps?

And is it possible that _no one_ knows what everyone else is doing to protect Harry? I mean, if Voldemort is rising to power, and people are disappearing every day, and you know there's a spy but you don't know who it is, then it seems to me that you take desperate steps and keep them to yourself. You don't know whom to trust.

The French have a good expression for it: "sauve qui peut." Each person in this dilemma would have to think about whom he or she loved most, decide how he or she could best protect those people and no others, and then figure out whom he or she could trust with knowledge of these plans and reveal them to that person, if anybody, and to no one else. The one big plan we know about went badly awry. What happened to the other plans, and did they succeed? And who now knows about them? Must ponder, must ponder.... ;)

Re the Pensieve: I must disagree with the theory that the Pensieve records an event as it happened, as if some network of videocameras and microphones were at work throughout the scene by the lake, and could see and hear everything. I think it is clear, every time Dumblydorr or Snape takes a thought from his mind and puts it in the Pensieve, that what is in the Pensieve can only be one person's perceptions. The Pensieve can reorganize those perceptions in order to afford a bird's eye view of them, or to enable the person using the Pensieve to pick and choose which perceptions to focus on. But the Pensieve can do nothing more.

I say "perceptions" because I agree that it is almost certain that the Pensieve records more than one would remember -- the point that our brains can pick up more than we consciously notice is well taken. But my concern is not about what Snape didn't "hear" in the sense of didn't notice -- my concern is about what he simply could not have heard at all because he was not within hearing range.

Assume I am right so far, about the nature of the Pensieve. Then we run into JKR's deliberate obfuscations in the SWM chapter. Now you can certainly read the scene both ways -- that Snape was able to hear everything until he was attacked, or nothing until he was attacked. JKR clearly wrote the scene with that ambiguity very much in mind.

If Snape was able to hear everything, then we can take the scene pretty much at face value. Which would be totally out of character for JKR -- CONSTANT VIGILANCE! -- and would also mean that the scene doesn't deserve the pages and effortful obfuscation she puts into it. But if nothing is the answer -- if Snape was simply not able to hear the Marauders' conversation during the SWM scene -- then I'm forced to the conclusion that Snape's own, unmodified memory in the Pensieve cannot relay that unheard conversation to others.

Is the fundamental disagreement we're having that others are not forced to the same conclusion? If so, could someone please explain the opposite theory again, and say why, on that view, the Pensieve may have recorded things that Snape, in the original scene, simply could not have heard? Just how does the Pensieve work in such a way? Does it make up dialogue? I'm serious -- I'm not understanding what people are suggesting here, because I'm not sure it makes sense. Where would the Pensieve get information about what "really" happened, if not from the limited perceptions of the person who put the memory into the Pensieve in the first place?

Lastly, Pippin, I totally agree that it's not necessary to imagine that JKR will throw absolutely everything at us -- all of her identity-twisting devices -- in book 7. I just think it's extremely likely that she is bound and determined to top every plot twist she has given us so far. She just strikes me as that kind of storyteller. There have to be some identity mysteries that are septology mysteries and not one-volume mysteries.

And last night I realized that Fudge foreshadows this. Remember when, during the confrontation in Dumbledore's office, he asks Dumbledore to explain? And Fudge says don't give me another crazy story about time travel, someone who's been dead for a dozen years, and dementors? I'll drop the dementors business and guess that we're just in for a surprise about time travel and about someone who's been dead for a dozen years.

This just hit me: where are Lily and James buried? We don't know, do we? What's the informed speculation on this? Why don't we know? Is this knowledge dangerous to Harry? Why hasn't he asked it before? Will he now, particularly because Sirius (if truly dead) has no grave?

Lastly, Pippin -- really lastly, now, and I'm really stretching the envelope here -- substitute "Lily" for "Professor Snape" and "her feelings" for "his feelings" and what do you get? A perfectly sensible statement. If "Snape" is truly Lily, and is conscious of that fact but must at all costs keep this fact secret, then it must be an enormous struggle for her to keep her true thoughts from Harry, and she must have developed all sorts of mechanisms, devices, and pretenses -- especially hate for Harry -- in order to prevent her true identity from being known.

Elwen

07-22-2003, 06:23 AM

Is there actually anything to suggest that they are indeed good friends? Lucius holds Snape in high regard, but is that because he knows Snape is a DE or because Snape is head of Slytherin, 'wants' the DADA job and hates Harry Potter?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could be any of it, really. I agree the last three things combined would be sufficient reason.

The one situation that I can see is that Snape somehow made the DE believe from the start, meaning from the moment he secretly changed sides, that he was still on theirs. That the whole “undermining the DE” concept has been there from the start. That Dumbledore and Snape have been keeping up the illusion for all these years.

I think that´s more plausible (at least it would be more plausible for me, looking at Snape from Voldemort´s POV) than Snape openly being Dumbledore´s good boy for years and then suddenly pretending to remember at the end of GoF that he´d rather be a DE again (even if he could offer valuable services and skills).

This all makes sense, except in one respect: whatever you do with this, Voldemort's list of absent Death Eaters in GoF just doesn't make sense! IF the person referred to as the one who won't come back and who will be killed is Snape then we have to assume that V really thinks that Snape has changed sides.

Because otherwise one of his eager to please Death Eaters will try to kill his most valuable secret agent.

As I have said before: As far as I am aware there is *no* logical conclusion to this web of contradictions. SOmething is fishy there.

Let us hope it isn't a mistake on the part of JKR.

Re the Pensieve: I must disagree with the theory that the Pensieve records an event as it happened, as if some network of videocameras and microphones were at work throughout the scene by the lake, and could see and hear everything. I think it is clear, every time Dumblydorr or Snape takes a thought from his mind and puts it in the Pensieve, that what is in the Pensieve can only be one person's perceptions. The Pensieve can reorganize those perceptions in order to afford a bird's eye view of them, or to enable the person using the Pensieve to pick and choose which perceptions to focus on. But the Pensieve can do nothing more.

I say "perceptions" because I agree that it is almost certain that the Pensieve records more than one would remember -- the point that our brains can pick up more than we consciously notice is well taken. But my concern is not about what Snape didn't "hear" in the sense of didn't notice -- my concern is about what he simply could not have heard at all because he was not within hearing range.

Telchar, I am sorry - that just doesn't wash it.
You are making assumptions about JKR's *invention* that aren't supported by any secure evidence (as in: a statement that tells us how a pensieve works.
The problem is that we are operating in a world where nothing is impossible and we can all just act on what we feel to be likely.

So this is just opinions...

But it seems to me that you use a completely subjective interpretation to back up your hypothetical speculations. This is OK with me, because my interpretation is subjective, too. But it seems that most readers have decided to interpret the pensieve differently from you - or at least to be cautious about hanging a complicated hypothesis ons something we cannot yet identify as 'unusual' or 'suspicious' as you suggest.

Unless we learn what 'usual' would mean we cannot judge the unusual.

I like your theory as a thought experiment but I am not sure whether it is worth putting too much energy into discussing the comparative value of equally subjective interpretations.....

Elwen

Telchar II

07-22-2003, 10:10 AM

Elwen, if you object to my tone, or believe that this line of thinking belongs in another thread, please let me know. I thought this issue belonged here because it is, after all, Snape's memory that we're trying to understand.

I had thought that part of the fun of this forum is to try to evaluate which equally subjective interpretation might be close to being accurate -- although certainly we each (myself included) have pet theories that we will not abandon, despite all the evidence. :D :o

I would be more sympathetic to the omniscient-Pensieve theory if it didn't contradict nearly everything that JKR has suggested about the Pensieve: that it runs on people's thoughts, or incorporates them, and enables people to organize and understand their own thoughts or perceptions better. Nothing we've been told suggests that the Pensieve can give a character information or an idea that that character had not already perceived or thought of (or had implanted by memory modification). Yes, the Pensieve may help a character understand or organize his or her own thoughts, memories, and ideas better. But if information wasn't in the character's brain to begin with, and then put in the Pensieve, I just don't see how the Pensieve can invent it, out of thin air, so to speak. (At least given what we've been told so far.)

You are quite right that we are theorizing about things that JKR has not yet fully explained. But it seems to me that we have a fair amount to go on with the Pensieve. We have its name, derived from the English "pensive" or thoughtful, the French "penser" or to think, and the Latin verb "pensare" or to ponder. We actually do have one description of how the Pensieve works, from Dumbledore, although it's not the most helpful and explicit explanation. And we have also seen two people now putting things into it from their brains.

We have not seen any other way in which the Pensieve acquires data. Therefore, from what we know so far, the Pensieve is not like the Mirror of Erised, which seems to have had some independent means of somehow acquiring information regarding, for instance, what Harry's family really looked like. The possibility that the Pensieve is like the Mirror in this respect cannot be ruled out, but I would say that JKR, who seems to play by some rules, would have given us a hint that this is possible.

The complications in my hypothesis stem not from my theory of the Pensieve, which is actually simpler than the omniscient-Pensieve theory, and (in my view) more in line with what JKR has told us thus far. The complications in my theory stem rather from what it means for the septology: if Snape's "worst" memory is in some sense not Snape's memory at all, then what? If anyone has a simpler explanation than the ones I have suggested, I would be delighted to hear it.

You're also right to say that it's a question of which is more likely. Does the Pensieve in some way, like the Mirror, have perceptions of its own, that it can generate independently of anyone putting those perceptions in the Pensieve? Or are some characters or memories not who or what they seem to be?

Which is more in line with what JKR has done to us so far? Which is more characteristic of her overall approach? Which would be more like PoA, the HP book that I suspect most of us enjoyed the most? :D

PhineasNigellus

07-22-2003, 10:38 AM

s the fundamental disagreement we're having that others are not forced to the same conclusion? If so, could someone please explain the opposite theory again, and say why, on that view, the Pensieve may have recorded things that Snape, in the original scene, simply could not have heard

let me explain, BECAUSE IT IS MAGIC!

Telchar II

07-22-2003, 11:02 AM

Come now, Phineas Nigellus. On that justification, any magical device could serve any purpose. Harry should be consulting the Snitch rather than the Pensieve for memories about the Marauders.

To be more constructive: it seems that each of JKR's magical devices has its own function and, if you will, rules of operation.
As far as I can tell, JKR presents the Pensieve as -- if you will -- a hard drive for actual memories. It seems to be a storage, organization, and retrieval device.

If the Pensieve were independently capable of gathering information as to what really happened during scenes that people have put into it, then it would be used for spying or memory-reconstruction purposes. It's not impossible, but we haven't seen that yet.

The most obvious candidate for reconstruction? Harry's limited memory as to what happened in Godric's Hollow. Somehow I don't think that issue is going to be resolved by use of the Pensieve.

Second obvious candidate for reconstruction: damaged memories of people in St. Mungo's.

PhineasNigellus

07-22-2003, 11:07 AM

i think you are just nit picking. If you look that hard at everything you will also notice that the events of the POA could not have happened without a third harry and Hermione being present

Elwen

07-22-2003, 02:58 PM

Telchar, I certqainly don't object to your posting style - and certainly not with your theories - as long as you don't hijack the agenda completely....

I like the fun of speculating, too.... but at some point guesswork becomes, in a way, meaningless, because nealry everything is possible. If Snape is James Potter then anyone else could be someone they actually aren't and we could probably come up with a good recosntruction of events in that way. I have no problem with this being your pet theory but I hope you don't object to people pointing out that overhypothesising in an only partially known universe with rules other than the real world is like, well, battling imaginary windmills.....

Why does the pensive know more than the owner of the memory?

I like the idea of things that were percieved but not actually consciously remembered. That could work. The brain stores much more information that we are aware of - that is why I at least sometimes suddenly remember details of past events that I don't remember noticing.

Otherwise - well, there was also a discussion of memories being planted to help Snape with occlumency - but personally, I don't want to go with that. I don't see the point of this particular memory - unless it is used to justify Snape's hatred for Harry to V and others.

I do wonder, however - is there a double meaning to 'worst memory' - such as 'not accurate'... I don't know.

As long as we don't have more hints as to how pensieves work I don't want to speculate on this too much. And I find JKR's information about pensieves rather vague and not conclusive in any way.

ELwen

Mithrildin

07-22-2003, 04:00 PM

I'll drop the dementors business and guess that we're just in for a surprise about time travel and about someone who's been dead for a dozen years.

Ah, but we already know about that! Dumbledore is not someone to lie - Fudge is referring to the explanations gave him about the disappearance of Sirius in PoA and the alleged presence of Peter Pettigrew in PoA. Pettigrew (as Fudge believes it) has been dead for a dozen years (I think we can safely say he may differ one or two years, being so enraged he doesn't count the years since Pettigrew's alleged death) - Dumbledore must have tried to explain this to Fudge, who, of course, didn't believe him. Neither did Fudge believe the story about time-travel (which, I believe, refers to Dumbledore telling him that Harry/Hermione travelled through time to save Sirius (there is, of course, the possibility that he told Fudge it was Sirus who travelled through time to avoid the Dementor's Snog, which would have kept Harry/Hermione out of the way of suspicion). I think the latter is more likely, because Fudge, as Minister of Magic, would surely know that time travel exists in the magical world!

On the Snape vs Death Eater matter, I cannot offer any thoughts. It's a complete mystery to me. :)

On the pensieve: I always understood this magical device as a means to empty your mind of thoughts you have no space for in your memory (thus keeping them readily available in the pensieve without danger of getting lost) and a means of analysis - being able to view your mind from a different point of view, MAYBE more objective.

From the medical viewpoint: It is true that the brain "saves" more information than we can actively retrieve. It is possible (e.g. by hypnosis) to retrieve subconsciously stored information that we would habe no conscious access to. So if Snape was in hearing range, and the pensieve allows that kind of "objective" view, including the subconscious, it would be possible for Harry to hear all that is being said.
However, if he wasn't in hearing range (A quote would be very helpful, but I haven't got OotP at hand) or if the pensieve doesn't work that way, only allowing your consciously retrievable data to be available, the mystery remains. :p

Kristin

07-23-2003, 01:22 AM

Here's something that has been bothering me for awhile about Snape:

In PoA, he catches Harry with the Marauder's Map, which insults him. Snape summons Lupin into his office, which I find strange, but Snape explains it by saying to Lupin, "This parchment is plainly full of Dark Magic. This is supposed to be your area of expertise, Lupin. Where do you imagine Potter got such a thing?"

But then after Lupin says it's a joke, Snape says "You think a joke shope could supply him with such a thing? You don't think it more likely that he got it directly from the manufacturers?"

:confused:

I've puzzled over this and puzzled over this. I still can't figure out whether I think Snape knows or not. His words ("directly from the manufacturers") certainly seem to say that he knows who Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs are! But nothing else necessarily supports it.

I suppose it could go back to the whole SWM debate. If Snape did know the Marauders' nicknames, it seems more likely that the scene was something that Snape actually overheard.

Elwen

07-23-2003, 05:39 AM

Well, depending on how the pensieve works....

If Snape can walk through his worst memory as Harry did then he should know by then.....

But his behaviour there is generally strange! If he knows what is he trying to achieve by calling Lupin? Has he realised that it will help protect Harry if he has the map and is he trying to find a way of return it eventually without appearing to have given in?

Am I right i thinking that Dumbledore wants Harry to have the map?

:confused:

Elwen

Seriphus

07-23-2003, 08:32 AM

So can we rule out him pretending that he, Severus Snape, has 'rejoined' the DE? I'd say we can.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can we? I don´t think so – after all, he has given people second chances before.
Oh blast! There's always something isn't there. I'm about ready to give up trying to work this out.

Of course, one way he could spy on the DEs in secret is if, as a vampire, he can turn into a bat. ;) Assuming that Voldy always holds meetings in graveyards and alike. :) :p
Do we really have to read it as Dumbledore has given up on Snape? Does it mean that WE have to give up on seeing some sort of reconciliation (no matter how exactly we picture it)? Can there be a satisfying reconciliation that does NOT include healing what can´t be healed? I'm actually beginning to think that we won't see a Snape-Harry reconcilliation. Maybe a semi-reconcilliation, where Snape realises that Harry isn't impressed with what he saw of his father in the pensieve, but still can't quite bring himself to like Harry.

And talking of pensieves... I would be more sympathetic to the omniscient-Pensieve theory if it didn't contradict nearly everything that JKR has suggested about the Pensieve. The thing is, it can't really contradict what we've been told because we haven't been told anything about how it works. As Elwen pointed out all our arguments are being based on assumptions and neither side has produced a strong enough argument to make the other conceed. So we will have to agree to disagree. :)So if Snape was in hearing range, and the pensieve allows that kind of "objective" view, including the subconscious, it would be possible for Harry to hear all that is being said.
However, if he wasn't in hearing range (A quote would be very helpful, but I haven't got OotP at hand) or if the pensieve doesn't work that way, only allowing your consciously retrievable data to be available, the mystery remains. That's exactly what this all rests on. And the fact is we don't know whether he heard it or not. There are sentences that suggest he did

Snape remained close by...

By keeping a little ahead of [Snape] Harry managed to keep a close watch on James and the others.

It also says that Snape sat close by the Marauders. The only significant point at which Snape might not have heard is

'This'll liven you up, Padfoot,' said James quietly. 'Look who it is...'
Sirius's head turned. He became very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit.
'Excellent,' he said softly. 'Snivellus.'

But, then this next passage suggests that even though they were talking quietly, they were still audible (after all, Harry was also sitting a little way away from them and he heard):

Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway in the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmis!'

He would have been expecting an attack if he had overheard Sirius and James.

Plus there's this bit from PoA, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs.

'It served him right,' [Sirius] sneered. 'Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping he could get us expelled ...'

It seems, according to Sirius, that Snape often did listen in on their conversations.
But my concern is not about what Snape didn't "hear" in the sense of didn't notice -- my concern is about what he simply could not have heard at all because he was not within hearing range. Well from re-reading that chapter it is not obvious to me that he wasn't in hearing range at any point. In fact it seems to me that he was. Unless there's something I've missed.I just don't see how the Pensieve can invent it, out of thin air, so to speak. (At least given what we've been told so far.) The pensieve does't have to invent stuff. As Phineas so elegantly put, ;) it's magic. Who's to say that it doesn't have access to some kind of magical record of every event that has ever taken place and it matches up your memory to the real thing for you to view it. Or maybe if James or Sirius or whoever had put their memory of what happened in previously and the pensieve could recall any information it had ever held. Then it could create a more accurate picture for Snape. There are so many ways around it because, as pointed out, just about anything is possible. But his behaviour there is generally strange! If he knows what is he trying to achieve by calling Lupin? Has he realised that it will help protect Harry if he has the map and is he trying to find a way of return it eventually without appearing to have given in?
I've puzzled over this and puzzled over this. I still can't figure out whether I think Snape knows or not. His words ("directly from the manufacturers") certainly seem to say that he knows who Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs are! But nothing else necessarily supports it. He must know who M, W, P & P are. He does by book 5, at least with Harry's 'he's got Padfoot' message. The Marauders appear to use their nicknames quite openly. Going back to the pensieve scene, whether Snape actually heard them or not, if he'd examined that memory before he would know the names. But he dosn't appear to know it's a map and why would he? So I don't think he's trying to get it back to Harry.
Perhaps he misjudged how Remus would react to seeing this thing from his school days and saw it as a chance to get him into trouble with the headmaster.

PhineasNigellus

07-23-2003, 08:43 AM

I think that perhaps after performing a prank or some such (as they seemed to do foten, being similar to Fred ang George) they would leave it but sign it with their nicknames (in the same way they did with the Marauders Map.) I think Snape would not know WHO M,W,P&P were but would know them as the source of mischief from through out his time at Hogwarts.

(Its just a theorey)

Telchar II

07-23-2003, 09:24 AM

Elwen, as you might expect, I love your double-meaning notion. :)

Seriphus, I agree that all of those passages are ambiguous. But JKR is so rarely so ambiguous that I think she's trying to cover something up in the ambiguity.

In rereading "Snape's Worst Memory" last night, what leapt out at me this time is that Harry can read the exam papers of both Snape and James as they are sitting at their separate desks. And JKR makes a big deal of Flitwick grabbing all the papers, so unless something very strange is going on, no one person can have known what both Snape and James were writing.

It would be typical for JKR to disguise a big clue by giving us the sight gag of Flitwick falling over.

Pippin

07-23-2003, 06:17 PM

Posted by Kristin
He's such a complex character that you never know really who he is. Snape is Snape, but it's less obvious what that means exactly. And it´s becoming less obvious in each new book.

I really hope JKR manages to tie up all the loose ends in the two remaining books. There are so, so many questions she still needs to answer, and I really don´t want to close book 7 and go “yes, but how… ? why… ? when… ? where… ?”

Like Elwen has said about Snape and the DE,
Posted by Elwen:

As far as I am aware there is *no* logical conclusion to this web of contradictions. SOmething is fishy there.
Let us hope it isn't a mistake on the part of JKR. I do hope so, too.

Posted by Telchar II

If, at the end of book 7, the big surprise turns out to be something that Dumbledore planned in secret and then carried out in relative peace and quiet over the years, with 100% success, you will be able to knock me over with a feather. Thank you, I will remember that when the time comes. :D

The trouble with speculation in general is, as you´ve pointed out yourself, you never know whether you have all the information and all the clues that you need on your hands yet. JKR doesn´t write that way. You can´t work things out yourself. It´s just impossible Every time you think you´re getting close, BANG in comes a new character, a new location, a new type of magic that puts it all on its head. Sometimes she does this brilliantly (the time turning twist at the end of PoA), sometimes it´s rather lame (the Prophecy in OotP), but she does it all the time.
Maybe the big revelation in book 7 will be that the wizarding world is a computer generated virtual reality. Who know. I mean of course it won´t be that, but you get my point – it would explain everything, and we wouldn´t ever have been able to tell from the evidence we got.

As for the Pensieve, I will stop discussing it now. I´m making my assumptions about how it works, you´re making yours, and we´re probably both wrong. Only JKR knows.

(And I do think the way the memory seems to work IS an inconsistency that JKR decided to live with for narrative purposes. :p)

Posted by Elwen

I do wonder, however - is there a double meaning to 'worst memory' - such as 'not accurate'... I don't know.Oh, this almost convinces me that Telchar´s right after all. :D

Posted by Telchar

I just think it's extremely likely that she is bound and determined to top every plot twist she has given us so far. She just strikes me as that kind of storyteller. There have to be some identity mysteries that are septology mysteries and not one-volume mysteries. Well, most of the identity revelations stretch over more than one book. No matter who you look at, JKR adds layer upon layer to their character in every new book, or at least stretched out over more than one.

But JKR is so rarely so ambiguous that I think she's trying to cover something up in the ambiguity. WHAT??? These books are full of ambiguities. Everything in them is ambiguous. Well, not everything, but a lot, and often it´s the pivotal things that are. Just think of the Prophecy. That´s as ambiguous as ambiguity gets.

Fudge says don't give me another crazy story about time travel, someone who's been dead for a dozen years, and dementors? I'll drop the dementors business and guess that we're just in for a surprise about time travel and about someone who's been dead for a dozen years. I´m with Mithrildin here that the “dead for a dozen years” just refers to Peter Pettigrew.

Posted by Mithrildin

Neither did Fudge believe the story about time-travel (which, I believe, refers to Dumbledore telling him that Harry/Hermione travelled through time to save Sirius (there is, of course, the possibility that he told Fudge it was Sirus who travelled through time to avoid the Dementor's Snog, which would have kept Harry/Hermione out of the way of suspicion). Now that is fishy. Do we really have to assume that once Sirius had escaped on Buckbeak, Dumbledore told Fudge that he´d just let the kids use the time turner to help Sirius escape? Not at all. On the contrary. When Snape accuses Harry of having been in on the escape, Dumbledore shrugs the idea of as absurd and says “unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I´m afraid I don´t see the point in troubling them further.” And Snape just seethes, whirls about, robes swishing behind him, and storms out of the room. Another of his great exits, by the way. :D

Anyway, Snape just knows. The teachers must have known that Hermione was using the time turner. Dumbledore´s words are brilliantly ambiguous there, and I´m sure they´re meant for Snape to understand what´s been going on, and he does.

Fudge, however (back to the point :o), doesn´t. Maybe he knew that Hermione had permission to use the time turner, but he certainly doesn´t remember it in that scene, he doesn´t react to Dumbledore´s comment at all.

Fudge doesn´t strike me as someone who`d put two and two together later, and still keep quiet about it – if he knew Dumbledore had helped Sirius escape, he´d have used it to discredit him after the Parting of the Ways at the end of GoF. And Dumbledore certainly hasn’t told him.

So how does he know about it in OOTP?

Oh well. This must be an error on JKR´s part. :(

Posted by Kristin
Here's something that has been bothering me for awhile about Snape:

In PoA, he catches Harry with the Marauder's Map, which insults him. Snape summons Lupin into his office, which I find strange, but Snape explains it ....

I've puzzled over this and puzzled over this. I still can't figure out whether I think Snape knows or not. His words ("directly from the manufacturers") certainly seem to say that he knows who Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs are! But nothing else necessarily supports it. I think Snape didn´t know about the Marauder´s Map before he found it on Lupin´s desk later on. But I don´t suppose the Marauders’ nicknames were such a big secret. Teenagers like using nicknames in front of others because it´s cool and shows who´s in the gang. The Marauders’ names kind of give away the Animagus thing, though.

I think your theory is quite elaborate, Elwen, but I think it’s unnecessarily complicated. Snape is not trying to (secretly) help Harry in that scene. I think, like Serphy, that he´s just trying to get Lupin sacked. It ties in nicely with the “Snape” boggart that Neville defeats in that memorable DADA lesson. Snape must get the impression that Lupin enjoys making Snape look ridiculous, and being Snape he´s not amused. It must remind him terribly of his own school days. His hatred of Lupin is far more important to him than even learning the truth about Sirius Black and Peter Pettigrew, at the end of PoA – so I think he´s not putting on a show in that scene in his office.

I´ve never been confused by this particular scene. Am I the only one?

Posted by Elwen

Am I right i thinking that Dumbledore wants Harry to have the map? What makes you think so? During PoA at least, Dumbledore doesn´t know the truth about Sirius, and he must want Harry safe inside Hogwarts and not sneaking around at night.

Btw, could you say whom Snape hated more, Lupin or Sirius? I can´t.

In OOTP, Sirius seems to be his main antagonist. But compared to the Shrieking Shack scene, that´s rather surprising (not surprising though when you know the “worst memory”).

In the Shrieking Shack, given that Sirius was a mad mass murderer for all Snape knew at that time, he cares remarkably little about him. His focus seems to be entirely on Lupin. He´s so busy sneering at Lupin that Sirius, if he had been a murderer, could have easily blown him up twice in that time. Strange that Snape doesn´t seem worried about that.

Elwen

07-23-2003, 08:11 PM

OK, my mistake about Dumbledore and the map!
I remember now...

Concer ning the time travel issue. I never noticed this before but thsi can't be a reference to the time turner. Why should it be? To be sure, for Fudge a time turner would be a perfectly familiar thing? Or at least he would know of this sort of device - so why he should think the story about that as strange as the story about peter P who is still alive, or dementors running wild.

[wild speculation]
Hmmmmmmmm.... is this a Dumbledore story we haven't actually heard yet (such as travelling back 15, 50 or some hundred (to the foundation of Hogwarts) years to observe/fix something or whatever? A story *we* (and Harry) haven't yet heard?
[/wild speculation]

Or it is just a mistake. But it seems like an odd mistake to make.

Concerning Snape and Sirius/Lupin... I am under the impression that Snape finds it easier to deal with Lupin (on a daily life basis, as in the order). He despises him and he probably hates that he has to brew his potion for him and so on.

But in a way Lupin was the responsible fairly restrained one when they were young and Snape's reason for not liking him are different and, perhaps, less deep-seated. IMHO.

Elwen

Telchar II

07-23-2003, 09:04 PM

You do that, Pippin! :D

On "ambiguous," Pippin -- fair enough. Bad choice of words on my part. Let me try to describe what I mean: I think the SWM chapter is very carefully written so that the narrator is sitting on the fence of the issue that we are discussing (the nature of the Pensieve and whose memory this really is). JKR is phrasing the evidence so that it points in both directions. And this really hits you over the head when you approach the scene with the Pensieve issue in mind.

So, by "ambiguous," I didn't mean a seemingly clear passage, like the Prophecy (or the SWM chapter title), that can be read two ways. I did indeed choose the wrong word, because I did not mean that if you work at it, you can find many possibilities behind the text. I meant more that I got the sense, in the SWM chapter, that JKR is being explicitly and deliberately unclear on the surface of the text itself. Perhaps "obfuscatory" or "explicitly indeterminate" would be better ways to put it?

Anyway, I think she does this in at least the following ways:

-- JKR gives us some information as to where everyone is sitting in the exam room, but not enough info so that we can tell whether Snape can see what James sees;
-- she stations Harry between Snape and the Marauders, both as they go outside and as they sit by the lake, so that it's not clear whose perceptions the Pensieve is relaying;
-- she sends mixed signals as to whether, as they are walking outside and sunning themselves, Snape is really focussing on his exam paper; and
-- she gives us the passage that you quoted, where it's not clear whether Snape expects an attack or not.

I'm not expressing this well, and if you think I'm making a distinction without a difference you may be right. Perhaps it's just a question of degree. But I find it striking how, if you approach the scene with our issue in mind, you cannot make the scene answer the question one way or the other.

Anyway, whenever JKR deliberately obfuscates like this, it's a signal, it seems to me. The only parallel to it that I can think of is in the first few books, before we know about Occlumency and Legilimency, when she says (re Dumbledore and Snape and Lupin) that it was almost as if they were reading Harry's mind. She uses that phrase several times. Turns out they were, of course. Which makes me wonder about the explicit indeterminacy and deliberate obfuscation in SWM.

Mithrildin

07-24-2003, 02:06 AM

My mistake about Dumbeldore's quote to Fudge at the end of PoA, Pippin ! :o But maybe he did tell Fudge that Sirius escaped by using time-travel...

It IS very strange that Fudge seems to think time travel absurd when it is possible to hand out Time Turners to students - even under the greatest secrecy, at least the Minister of Magic must know they exist! Look at all the things they keep in the Department of Mysteries (time bottled!)...

And Snape just seethes, whirls about, robes swishing behind him, and storms out of the room. Another of his great exits, by the way :D

I totally agree with you there. :D I can jst see him storming down a corridor, blasting statues out of his way and putting the Full-Body-Bind on any student who dares trying to speak to him. :p

Lady Haleth

07-24-2003, 10:30 AM

Some random thoughts:

We know that Snape detests Lupin and Sirius with the heat of a thousand suns and there is no love lost with Moody either. Consider how much more he must hate Voldemort in order to put aside his differences with the Marauders in order to work with them toward V's defeat. A very complex man indeed.

Fudge and the time turner... typical bureaucratic behavior. He was unwilling to entertain the question of whether the Ministry had made a mistake regarding Peter's death and Sirius's guilt, so he chose to ignore the evidence in front of him. The man reeks of denial.

Snape and the Marauders Map... he must have known who Prongs, etc were. The boys were arrogant enough that they would flaunt their nicknames.

The pensieve... such a misnomer. One's brain is the actual sieve, sifting out aspects of a memory that seem most relevant and sending other details to the far reaches of the brain. The pensieve collects the total memory, even the deeply stored, subconscious data and recreates the complete picture. Couldn't the pensieve be used in judicial matters? Or would forced use of the pensieve (to detect DEs for example) be considered a violation of wizardly constitutional rights?

Seriphus

07-24-2003, 06:26 PM

I think I'll follow your lead Pippin and stop discussing the pensieve. Telchar, as much as I admire your theory, I don't buy it and don't find anything in the SWM chapter that makes me doubt that it's Snape's own memory. Of course if either of the next books prove you right you may trout me with a large slippery fish (a trout, presumably) ;)Btw, could you say whom Snape hated more, Lupin or Sirius? I can´t. Sirius. There's a tension between them that isn't there with Remus. Even Snape's hatred of James seems to pale in comparison when compared with his feelings towards Sirius. ;)
With Remus it's snide, even viscious, comments, but they still manage to work alongside one another for a whole school year (probably mostly due to Remus' temperament rather than Snape's level of dislike). But still, if the pensieve's (sorry ;) ) anything to go by, Remus was never part of the tormenting and I think Snape acknowledges this in his own angry little way. With Snape and Sirius you couldn't leave those two in a room together for more than a minute without them being at each others throats. Could you imagine this scene happening with Remus?

With a roar of rage, Black started towards Snape, but Snape pointed his wand straight between Black’s eyes.
'Give me a reason,' he whispered. 'Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will.'
Black stopped dead. It would have been impossible to say which face showed more hatred. (PoA, chpt 19, The Servant of Lord Voldemort)

I think it's because they are far too alike, and the more I read the more similar they appear. (Supposedly, you hate things about other people that you secretly hate about yourself). With those two explosive tempers the hatred between them can become much more intense.
And in terms of favourite characters, I find it quite difficult to reconcile the fact that I like Sirius so much, as Snape's my favourite character. I sometimes feel quite torn when I'm reading the books. However, I have no problem with Remus being my second favourite.

In the Shrieking Shack, given that Sirius was a mad mass murderer for all Snape knew at that time, he cares remarkably little about him. His focus seems to be entirely on Lupin. He´s so busy sneering at Lupin that Sirius, if he had been a murderer, could have easily blown him up twice in that time. Strange that Snape doesn´t seem worried about that. Unless Snape didn't react because he knew Sirius was innocent because he'd known Pettigrew was a DE. I'm not saying I believe that, it just came into my head, but it's possible isn't it? And if Snape was the spy who told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters, he may have found out who the spy was.

We know that Snape detests Lupin and Sirius with the heat of a thousand suns and there is no love lost with Moody either. Consider how much more he must hate Voldemort in order to put aside his differences with the Marauders in order to work with them toward V's defeat. A very complex man indeed. I'd never thought about it like that. Very complex. Makes you wonder if he really likes anyone. And it makes me think even more that something major must have happened to make him leave the DE.

Pippin

07-24-2003, 07:33 PM

Telchar, my confusion about the "ambiguous" issue is cleared up now, thanks for elaborating.

whenever JKR deliberately obfuscates like this, Well, the whole point is that there´s no proof at all that it´s deliberate. She does make mistakes, see time turner. And she sometimes makes bigger mistakes than DE Rookwood changing his first name half way through OotP, too. :D

I really hate to be going on holiday for a week just now... so many great thoughts to reply to....

We know that Snape detests Lupin and Sirius with the heat of a thousand suns and there is no love lost with Moody either. Consider how much more he must hate Voldemort in order to put aside his differences with the Marauders in order to work with them toward V's defeat. A very complex man indeed. Very well said, Lady H. :)

Serphy, great analysis of the Sirius/Snape relationship (including the ;) - :LOL: )!

I think it's because they are far too alike, and the more I read the more similar they appear. (Supposedly, you hate things about other people that you secretly hate about yourself). With those two explosive tempers the hatred between them can become much more intense. That´s completely true - they´re too similar to get along at least comparatively normally. They´re just bound to clash.

And in terms of favourite characters, I find it quite difficult to reconcile the fact that I like Sirius so much, as Snape's my favourite character. I sometimes feel quite torn when I'm reading the books. However, I have no problem with Remus being my second favourite. But that´s probably also because they´re so alike. I feel the same, I really like them both! Go dark brooding types! :D

Unless Snape didn't react because he knew Sirius was innocent because he'd known Pettigrew was a DE. I'm not saying I believe that, it just came into my head, but it's possible isn't it? And if Snape was the spy who told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters, he may have found out who the spy was. :eek: Whoa!!! I´ve never read it that way - makes the whole end of PoA appear in a completely different light! So maybe Snape knew all along that their story was true, and tried to consciously prevent the world from learning the truth and knowlingly put two innocent men back in Azkaban? Or worse, have them demented? What a revenge. Man that would be so evil. :eek:

I think I really don´t want to believe it. :o

Trouble is, it sounds awfully plausible. I don´t think Dumbledore had two useful spies in his service.

Makes you wonder if he really likes anyone. Maybe he likes noone any longer. Maybe someone he liked is dead or turned against him or betrayed him or something. I think now he just wants to be left alone with his potions.

I´ll leave you alone with your Potions now, too. :D See you all in a week! :wave:

Lembas

07-24-2003, 09:12 PM

I wonder if Snape ever had a puppy or kitten and someone put the boot to it? ;)

Lord Schaudt

07-24-2003, 09:36 PM

Of Course Snape Knew who Prongs was thats why he asked Remus about it! i mean he used the excuse that it was full of dark magic, but in reality we all know its just cuz he can't come out and say that in front of harry

Colli

07-24-2003, 09:46 PM

I've been gone for a couple days.. I really love reading the discussion! :)

I think Snape had to have known the nicknames, they used them quite openly. In Snape's Worst Memory, Snape was crawling on the ground toward his wand as Sirius says to James "Bad luck, Prongs." Just after this statement Snape blasts a curse at James and James retaliates with the hanging-upside-down curse.

So if Sirius used a nickname once, the use of them had to be pretty common, even with Lily, Snape, and other students present.

Ugh, that chapter makes me sick.

PhineasNigellus

07-25-2003, 10:26 AM

that nickname stuff still did not make sense...why Lupin call it a zonko's product instead of say

SNAPE: That is plainly full of dark magic

LUPIN: no its not it is a peice of parchment i made when i was younger to insult people.
---
it would make more sense to say that rather than deny it if Snape knew anyway.

Colli

07-25-2003, 11:11 AM

Except that Harry was right there and Lupin didn't seem too keen on revealing stuff about MWPP's childhood at that particular point in the book. :)

Lord Schaudt

07-25-2003, 03:12 PM

I don't think Lupin really wanted harry to sit there and pester him about his dad and mom in and out of class

Pippin

08-01-2003, 08:49 AM

by Lady Haleth
Couldn't the pensieve be used in judicial matters? Or would forced use of the pensieve (to detect DEs for example) be considered a violation of wizardly constitutional rights? Hm, judging from what we see of the trials in GoF and OotP, wizards don´t seem to have constitutional rights anyway… :rolleyes:

But I wonder how many Pensieves there are. Maybe it´s a very rare object. I wouldn´t like to see on over-extensive use of it – it´s kind of cheap. Like, if everyone is a Legilimens, why bother communicating normally with people any more? If Pensieves abound in the story, why bother about people relying on their own memories?

by Seriphus

With Snape and Sirius you couldn't leave those two in a room together for more than a minute without them being at each others throats. Grimmauld Place is a Big Brother house really, isn´t it? :D

Unless Snape didn't react because he knew Sirius was innocent because he'd known Pettigrew was a DE. I'm not saying I believe that, it just came into my head, but it's possible isn't it? And if Snape was the spy who told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters, he may have found out who the spy was. I´ve been looking at PoA again (desperate to prove that Snape wouldn´t be THAT evil :o) and in the conversation in the Three Broomsticks that Harry, Ron & Hermione overhear, Fudge says that Dumbledore “had a number of useful spies in his service. One of them tipped him off [that Voldemort was after the Potters].” Only then does Dumbledore tell them to go into hiding with the help of the Fidelius charm. So even if Snape was the one that tipped Dumbledore off, there was no way he could have known who the secret keeper was going to be. So consequently, in PoA Snape can´t have known that Sirius was really innocent.

About the “useful spy”, it´s interesting that Snape (if it was him) helped save his arch enemy James’s life, isn´t it? It would have been easy not to pass on that particular piece of information that the Potters were in danger, he could always have pretended afterwards that he didn´t know. There must have been a very strong motivation behind that, stronger than his hatred of James!

That´s all assuming that it was Snape. Does anyone else think it takes away from Snape a bit that there should have been more spies than just him? I wonder who they were? Will we ever know? Are they all dead? Given how hard it must have been to undermine the DE from within, it seems a bit too easy for me that there should have been several spies. But the book says so. Or at least Fudge does.

PhineasNigellus

08-01-2003, 11:52 AM

Snape saved(tried to save) the potters because James had saved his life while at school and he hated being in James' debt. I also think that if the potters had survived snape would have considered the debt repaid and called it quits with james.

lizz

08-01-2003, 12:18 PM

by seriphus

Unless Snape didn't react because he knew Sirius was innocent because he'd known Pettigrew was a DE. I'm not saying I believe that, it just came into my head, but it's possible isn't it? And if Snape was the spy who told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters, he may have found out who the spy was.

and pippin

I´ve been looking at PoA again (desperate to prove that Snape wouldn´t be THAT evil ) and in the conversation in the Three Broomsticks that Harry, Ron & Hermione overhear, Fudge says that Dumbledore “had a number of useful spies in his service. One of them tipped him off [that Voldemort was after the Potters].” Only then does Dumbledore tell them to go into hiding with the help of the Fidelius charm. So even if Snape was the one that tipped Dumbledore off, there was no way he could have known who the secret keeper was going to be. So consequently, in PoA Snape can´t have known that Sirius was really innocent.

The point is if Snape knew Pettigrew was Voldemorts spy in the order he could have assumed Sirius was innocent of the betrayal.
Both is possible. He might have known Pettigrew was the spy or really thought it was sirius. I think not all DEath eaters know each other and Voldemort might have told them he had a spy on Dumbledore but not who the spy was.

What Snape said points in the direction he knew about the Fidelius charm and assumed Sirius was secretkeeper when he said to Harry." You should thank me for saving your life, without me you would have died like your father to arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black".

by pippin
It would have been easy not to pass on that particular piece of information that the Potters were in danger, he could always have pretended afterwards that he didn´t know. There must have been a very strong motivation behind that, stronger than his hatred of James!

Or his hatred of sirius. Just think how easy it would have been not to understand what harry was telling him and go to check on Sirius. He wouldnt have alerted the order and without them the events at the ministry would have been very different.

I think the motivation behind this is that he is on the right side. He makes nasty comments, is unpleasant, extremly unfair, but when it comes to the real important choices he takes the "good" road. At least I do hope so.

And I want to know what exactly he is doing for the order.

Seriphus

08-01-2003, 03:49 PM

Hooray! The Snape thread's back to life. :)

OK, I wrote a reply to a couple of points a few days ago and didn't have time to post them then, so apologies for anything that's already been pointed out:

Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. (PoA, chpt 10, The Marauder's Map)

Which is why we can only speculate on whether it was Snape that tipped him off, although I have a sneaking feeling that it was him. I don't suppose the other spies have to be ex-DEs, they could have had other ways of gaining useful information without being in Voldemort's service. I wonder who the other spies are/were and whether they are still around. Not Kakaroff, surely?
So maybe Snape knew all along that their story was true, and tried to consciously prevent the world from learning the truth and knowlingly put two innocent men back in Azkaban? Or worse, have them demented? What a revenge. Man that would be so evil. Well Snape didn't actually know the story about switching secret keepers, he was only there (and conscious) in the Shrieking Shack when they were talking about becoming animagi. So he might not have known that Pettigrew was still alive and he wouldn't have been surprised that Sirius had 'killed' someone. But he may have known enough to know that Sirius wasn't just a deranged murderer killing anyone he could. If it actually was true that he knew Pettigrew was a DE, then it shows a much nastier side to Snape than we've seen before - a much more DE-style aspect, although the scenario with Snape's revenge sounds more like something Crouch Snr would do than, say, Bellatrix Lestrange.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So even if Snape was the one that tipped Dumbledore off, there was no way he could have known who the secret keeper was going to be. So consequently, in PoA Snape can´t have known that Sirius was really innocent. But the point is really that if he knew Pettigrew was a DE, it wouldn't matter how much he knew about the fidelius charm (and from the passage Lizz mentions it sounds like he probably did), he would have reason enough to suspect that Sirius wasn't a servant of the Dark Lord because Sirius and Pettigrew were obviously on opposite sides of the conflict.I think the motivation behind this is that he is on the right side. He makes nasty comments, is unpleasant, extremly unfair, but when it comes to the real important choices he takes the "good" road. At least I do hope so. That's a really good point and I think you're right. It's the difference between 'nice' and 'good' again. As long as he's working for the Order he has a duty to protect his fellows. It wouldn't be a very good situation for him to be in if he let the risk to the Potters' lives go unmentioned and then Dumbledore found out he'd known all along. He needed to prove that he had changed sides. Couldn't the pensieve be used in judicial matters? Or would forced use of the pensieve (to detect DEs for example) be considered a violation of wizardly constitutional rights? It's like Veritaserum. If they used that all the time they would have no problem finding out the truth behind cases, but they seem to overlook it - with Sirius it was an obvious way to prove his innocence. Though in that case, I guess, it would be possible to cheat the system if someone in the Ministry had a motive to do so and the real thing wasn't used (as Snape did with Umbridge). If the pensieve was used in the judicial system, then perhaps memory charms would be performed on suspects (as in the kind used on the Roberts' or on Lockhart, not false memories ;) ).

I agree about cheapening the Pensieve and Legilimency if they are used too much. But so far in my re-reading I've only come across four [possible] legilimens and two of them are the most powerful wizards around, so hopefully it won't be over-used. So far JKR's been pretty good about varying the ways Harry finds out important stuff and I'm hoping she'll provide some new things in the last books. Twice is really enough for the pensieve.Grimmauld Place is a Big Brother house really, isn´t it? :LOL: With Sirius desperately trying to get evicted.

Telchar II

08-01-2003, 10:58 PM

Seriphus, I think you're right about Legilimency and Occlumency being rare. If they were common, there would be a course at Hogwarts in them. Legilimency may be something that powerful wizards keep largely to themselves, and do not share very often. Or it may just be extremely difficult or dangerous.

I think we know of five Legilimentes: Dumbledore, Voldemort, McGonagall, Lupin, and (sniff!) Sirius. Shacklebolt is a possibility, the chief evidence being that he was so "quick on the uptake" with his memory charm in Dumbledore's office. He might have gotten Dumbledore's drift through unusual means.

I think we must also assume that James was a Legilimens too -- because he seems to have been Sirius's equal and co-venturer in magic. I mean, if they could become animagi together during their fifth year, they probably would have shared Legilimency skills too. And Lupin says that James and Sirius were the best in their year at whatever they tried to do -- which might mean they were better Legilimentes than Snape.

If James became a Legilimens, then I suspect that Lily might have been one also. Hagrid seems to think of them as equal in talent. They were Head Boy and Head Girl together, which might have given them excuses to be in Dumbledore's office together. Perhaps he taught them Legilimency together. In fact, perhaps that's how they fell in love.... It would explain Lily's swift change of opinion: she finally learned James's mind in full, as it were.

Dangerous stuff, Legilimency.... :D

lizz

08-02-2003, 10:33 AM

Telchar where do you see Sirius as legilemens? I´ve found no hints about that. And you forgot Snape, he must have been a good one or why else would dumbledore ask him to teach Harry.

And I think Kingsley was so quick in the uptake because thats part of his job. As an auror he must judge situations and react quickly. And he did it to save the situation as a memeber of the order.

Seriphus

08-02-2003, 04:51 PM

I haven't done a complete re-read yet, but so far I've only got Dumbledore, Voldemort and Snape as definites and Remus as a possible.

If James, Lily, Sirius, McGonagall and Kingsley all are as well, that's when it starts to become a cheap trick.

Pippin

08-03-2003, 04:15 PM

Posted by PhineasNigellus

Snape saved (tried to save) the potters because James had saved his life while at school and he hated being in James' debt. I also think that if the potters had survived snape would have considered the debt repaid and called it quits with james. Very true, Phineas. Yes, that makes sense to me. Given the “ancient magic” about one wizard saving the other’s life, it must have been a strong enough motivation.

I think this is also supported by what Dumbledore tells Harry at the end of PS about Snape saving Harry’s life during the Quidditch match – he says Snape was trying to repay the debt he owed to James (after having failed repaying it to James directly, which must have been nagging him). There was no question for Snape here either that he´d save Harry although he hated him.

And here´s an interesting new twist to the question:
by Serphy
He needed to prove that he had changed sides. That´s another possible motivation, of course. Whether this really plays a part depends, of course, on something we can only speculate on – the reason why Snape changed sides in the first place!

If it was a really autonomous decision, Snape would have been able to feel kinda superior about it – like, he was doing the Order a favour to be offering them his skills and connections and DE insider knowledge, so they´d better be thankful (he´d have liked that! :D).

But maybe it was more that he was in real trouble and had quite a bad record already and Dumbledore basically blackmailed him into changing sides, like it was working for Dumbledore or a one way ticket straight to Azkaban? (And he would not have liked that! :eek: ) If this was the case, he would have had to take quite some pains to prove that he deserved their trust, and trying to save his arch enemy’s life would have been strong proof.

I wonder what it was like when he changed sides. Dumbledore’s “you’re here at my invitation” at the end of GoF hints at the second scenario rather than the first, and may account for quite a lot of Snape´s bitterness.

Posted by lizz

The point is if Snape knew Pettigrew was Voldemorts spy in the order he could have assumed Sirius was innocent of the betrayal…. I think not all DEath eaters know each other and Voldemort might have told them he had a spy on Dumbledore but not who the spy was. That is true, of course. Doesn´t it say somewhere that Pettigrew had been working for Voldemort for quite a while before the death of the Potters?

But then, I think that not even Dumbledore knew (until the end of PoA) that Pettigrew was the traitor! Is it plausible that Snape knew all those years and nobody else did?

Snape´s conviction of Sirius’s guilt (as shown in your quote, Lizz, about James being to arrogant to believe himself mistaken in Black) might only have come afterwards, though. The Order must have talked a great deal about the case, and all the evidence was against Sirius.

Posted by Seriphus

I don't suppose the other spies have to be ex-DEs, they could have had other ways of gaining useful information without being in Voldemort's service. I wonder who the other spies are/were and whether they are still around. Not Kakaroff, surely? I doubt very much that they´re still around. We would have met them by now, wouldn´t we?

(I don´t think Karkaroff was a spy. He´s just a coward, went along with the DE until it got too dangerous for himself, and then ran.)

Maybe the others weren´t converted ex-DE, but people pretending to want to join the DE, or people pretending the Imperius curse was working on them… all of which would require a lot of courage and cleverness, and as I said before I really don´t want Snape to be diminished because twenty other people did the same that he did. :rolleyes:

So far JKR's been pretty good about varying the ways Harry finds out important stuff and I'm hoping she'll provide some new things in the last books. Twice is really enough for the pensieve. But most things that are mentioned rather casually tend to come back with a REALLY big twist. Like, the Polyjuice Potion was introduced to us in CoS where it was important to the plot but didn´t bring on THE crucial key twist. That only came in GoF. I don´t think the Polyjuice Potion will be used again in such a big way. The Pensieve, although it´s been used twice already, hasn´t played a part in a REALLY big plot twist yet. We might yet see more of it!

With Sirius desperately trying to get evicted. Oh Serphy, now we are being mean. :o ;) :D

Posted by Telchar
Dangerous stuff, LegilimencyParticularly once Telchar has picked up on it for some more whacky theories… :p

If either Lupin or Sirius or McGonagall were Legilimentes, Dumbledore would have had one of them teach Harry and not Snape. Period.

While there´s no shred of evidence that Sirius or McGonagall were (it´s not like “every gifted wizard or witch is” – otherwise they´d all be animagi and whatnot, too), Lupin seems to “read Harry´s mind” more than once in PoA – but then, maybe he´s just this really intuitive, sensitive guy that´s good at looking at the world with the eyes of another person and understanding their situations.
that's when it starts to become a cheap trick. Absolutely.

Mirdan

08-03-2003, 04:30 PM

i'm a little confused...a lot of people have already put down Lupin as a possible Legilimens, but where does it imply that he might be one? as far as we know, Lupin is able to correctly interpret (or assume) whatever questions or reactions Harry goes through or would want to ask, but other than that i'm not entirely convinced (yet) that Lupin is a Legilimens. Snape explained that Legilimency is an obscure branch of magic; those who are Legilimens are able to extract feelings and memories from another person's mind, but as far as as we know the exact definition of Legilimens is not really the same as mind reading. from what i understand from Snape's explanation, Legilimency is more about tuning into another person's inner feelings, probing one's memories that would enable the Legilimens to then use this bit of info; thus, whatever the Legilimens get from the person they're casting it to is really open to any interpretation...i think. we know that Voldemort is a very good Legilimens, which was why he was able to tap into Harry's mind, fish out whatever he needed to use for his advantage, and more or less manipulate Harry's "dreams."

i don't see Lupin doing any of this at all to Harry anywhere in the books; granted that Lupin is a very observant and perceptive character, but i don't know for sure if Lupin actually is a Legilimens to begin with. the same for Sirius, and even Shacklebolt. for one thing, everytime Lupin and Harry have a decent conversation in the little amount of time that they have together in the books, Lupin doesn't exactly utter the incantation for Legilimency. Harry doesn't go through that "trip to Memory Lane" where he could actually see his memories, he didn't really feel as though his mind was being tapped in just like what happened during his Legilimency lessons with Snape. then again, do people who are being mind-probed have to go through this?

but anyways, if there's one sure thing about Snape it's that he's got to be much better at Occlumency than in Legilimency. if he was able to close his mind to revealing his true feelings and thoughts to the Legilimency skills of Voldemort, that he was able to do this for such a long period of time that Voldemort doesn't seem to know that Snape is a double agent (i still think he is!), then Occlumency must be his forte.

EDIT: ai, Pippin! i didn't see your post! :o

Colli

08-03-2003, 05:08 PM

Snape WOULD have to be an excellent occlumens to fool Voldemort, but then what's that say about Harry's possible Legilimens skills if he was able to begin to probe into Snape's memories (ie his father and mother)?

I think that's a good point, Mirdan, about Lupin, but I still think she worded things that way for a reason.
If either Lupin or Sirius or McGonagall were Legilimentes, Dumbledore would have had one of them teach Harry and not Snape. Period.
I think that's a little rash. How exactly would Lupin and Sirius regularly give Harry lessons in Hogwarts? Lupin was busy doing work for the Order and who knows what else. And Dumbledore himself was making sure Sirius didn't leave the house (didn't work too well :(), he wasn't about to ask him to come to Hogwarts.

Plus I think it's possible Dumbledore WANTED Snape to teach Harry.

Seriphus

08-04-2003, 12:02 PM

by Pippin
I wonder what it was like when he changed sides. Dumbledore’s “you’re here at my invitation” at the end of GoF hints at the second scenario rather than the first, and may account for quite a lot of Snape´s bitterness. I think it could have been a bit of both in terms of the two scenarios you suggested. That he left the DEs of his own accord for one, or various, reasons and found himself outcast in the wizarding world with nowhere to turn, so Dumbledore invited him to join the Order.
But then I really like your suggestion of Dumbledore blackmailing him. It suits his character so well, being at a point where he's gone so far off the rails that there's little chance of turning back and then, basically, being forced to make this incredibly hard, life-changing decision that offers either the chance to go down fighting for his cause or redemption.

Dumbledore seems to see something in Snape that isn't in the likes of Lucius Malfoy. I can't help feeling that Dumbledore's always had this fondness and hope for him, even when he was messing up his life joining the DE. But then, I think that not even Dumbledore knew (until the end of PoA) that Pettigrew was the traitor! Is it plausible that Snape knew all those years and nobody else did? I think (if the theory was actually true) that the account of what happened is so confusing to anyone who doesn't know the full story that even if he knew Pettigrew was a DE, Snape could still make himself believe that Sirius was not innocent in all the goings-on.
I agree that it may be a bit far-fetched for him not to have let Dumbledore know that Pettigrew was a DE, but then we don't know how long Snape had been working for the Order (not long enough to be in Moody's photo). For all we know he could have changed sides the day he told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters (if it was him, obviously) and after the night they died the Order was no longer needed. There's so many "if"s involved it's difficult to say what's plausible. :) and as I said before I really don´t want Snape to be diminished because twenty other people did the same that he did. I completely agree. And I don't think the other spies did the same as Snape. They could have had connexions to DEs without joining up themselves i.e. like the type of wizards that Sirius' parents were: sympathising with Voldemort's stance, but not actively joining in. There may have been spies with family members in the DE, who acted as if they were supportive of the descision and were therefore let in on just too much information. Lupin seems to “read Harry´s mind” more than once in PoA – but then, maybe he´s just this really intuitive, sensitive guy that´s good at looking at the world with the eyes of another person and understanding their situations. That does seem to describe Remus' personality well, but I agree with Colli that JKR chooses her words carefully, I remember several discussions pre-book 5 about how often it said in the books that Dumbledore or Snape seemed to have read Harry's mind and was this significant? - which it was. :) Though, I won't commit either way on Remus' legilimency unless there's proof.Plus I think it's possible Dumbledore WANTED Snape to teach Harry. Ooh yes, that could well be the case. What better way to learn to understand each other better than to see into each others minds and see that they're not as different as they first thought.

Telchar II

08-05-2003, 01:19 AM

To defend my suppositions re Legilimentes:

Snape. Of course. Duh.

McGonagall: IIRC, on several occasions, she believes Harry without a word from Harry required to convince her, even though he is asserting the most bizarre things. Perhaps the most prominent instance is om OotP when Neville brings her up to the dormitory to see Harry, who's just woken up screaming and become sick because of seeing Mr. Weasley attacked. There's a phrase -- books not here, of course -- where JKR tells us that McGonagall stared at Harry as if horrified by what she was seeing -- and it wouldn't be the sight of Harry that would horrify her, but rather that of Mr. Weasley covered with blood. The speed with which she accepts Harry's assertion that Mr. Weasley was attacked also suggests that she accepts it because she knows what he has seen.

Lupin: People have discussed him already. There's certainly room for disagreement. I would just add that he does call Snape a "superb Occlumens." Or something like that. How would Lupin know, if he weren't skilled in that art himself?

Sirius: I think the most convincing reading of the PoA scene in the Shrieking Shack -- where Remus and Sirius seem to read each other's mind about events that took place ten years ago or more -- is that they finally let down their occulmency defenses and could each see what the other was thinking. IIRC, doesn't JKR make a big deal about their eye contact at that point in the Shrieking Shack scene? At any rate, regarding them as skilled in Occlumency and Legilimency might explain why they each understood what the other was talking about. Or -- who knows -- perhaps they are just old and very good friends who can read each other extremely well without mindwork.

Lastly, in OotP, Remus says that Sirius and James were the best in the year at whatever they did. Again, I would just say that if they turned their minds to Occlumency and Legilimency, they would have been good at it. And why wouldn't Remus have taught them how? It would have repaid them for becoming animagi, and for joining Remus in his beastly behavior.

Pippin -- you're probably right. Nothing's safe from Telchar and his wacky theories! But -- regarding Remus and McGonagall, and the rarity of Occlumency generally -- teachers at Hogwarts are not just any old wizards; I would suspect that they are Dumbledore's strong allies and must be fairly potent people themselves. And on a purely practical level, it would be quite helpful for the deputy headmistress to be a mind-reader.

Plus, after what happened with Polyjuice Potion in GoF, not to mention the Portkey, are we really sure that JKR is above cheap tricks? She shows us these magical abilities and then she deploys them in her plots. Often, as has been remarked about Polyjuice Potion, she introduces a device in book A, lets it slide for book B, and then uses that device as a real plot organizer in book C. I think the notion is that we're supposed to forget about the device as we get caught up in a plot that doesn't involve it.

On this skip-a-book theory, memory charms might become extremely important in book 6. And legilimency and occlumency might become extremely important in -- yup, that's right -- book 7.

Drizella

08-05-2003, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by Colli
Plus I think it's possible Dumbledore WANTED Snape to teach Harry.
That was always the impression I got. It's probably important to Dumbledore that the two of them understand one another--not to become friends necessarily--but enough to bring them to a level of understanding, even empathy.

Also, I don't believe JKR would make too many other characters skilled at Occlumency. After all, it's 'an obscure branch of magic' and if she were to make several others gifted in it, I feel like it would lose some of its power and weight in the story. If it turns out that a handful of other characters are skilled as well, I would be disappointed.
by Telchar
I would just add that he does call Snape a "superb Occlumens." Or something like that. How would Lupin know, if he weren't skilled in that art himself?
I don't think Lupin necessarily needs to be an Occlumens to determine whether or not Snape is 'superb' at it. If it's his skill in Occlumency that landed Snape his key role in the Order, then it's clear that he's good at it. And it would be difficult to really judge Snape's skill unless you personally have been put under Occlumency by him, as was in Harry's case.
Telchar again
The speed with which she (McGonagall) accepts Harry's assertion that Mr. Weasley was attacked also suggests that she accepts it because she knows what he has seen.
McGonagall is completely aware of the great risk Harry's in and that everything is possible now that Voldemort's back. And if she was an Occlumens, I'm not sure that people who know Occlumency would use it at every advantage they could get, anyway.

Occlumency, I'm pretty sure, is also a rare practice of magic used as a sophisticated form of defense. Why would you learn it if you didn't have to? I would think people who use it have a need to use it; I would think people who know it only know it for a very good reason.

Colli

08-05-2003, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by Drizella
Also, I don't believe JKR would make too many other characters skilled at Occlumency. After all, it's 'an obscure branch of magic' and if she were to make several others gifted in it, I feel like it would lose some of its power and weight in the story. If it turns out that a handful of other characters are skilled as well, I would be disappointed.
LOL, it would lose weight just like muggleborn witches and wizards do, right? :D

Snape Snape Snape... I really want to know what's going on in his mind.

Pippin

08-05-2003, 12:37 PM

by Colli

Snape Snape Snape... I really want to know what's going on in his mind. Maybe you should ask him to teach you some Occlumency, huh? :p

Honestly, remember Dumbledore telling Harry at the end of HP PS about Snape´s motivations and actions and JKR says "Harry tried to understand this but it made his head pound, so he stopped."

Can we all relate to that or can we? :D

by Mirdan

ai, Pippin! i didn't see your post! Why, was it too short? :angel:

by Colli

I think it's possible Dumbledore WANTED Snape to teach Harry. It is. But why? In the "everything" chapter, Dumbledore admits that he didn´t expect the lessons to go so very wrong, he says he hoped Snape would not let himself be carried away by his grudges. Which means he knew that danger. I don´t think he hoped the two of them would become great friends that way.

What I think is more likely is that Dumbeldore didn´t want to teach Harry *himself* (he says so - it would have been dangerous to open his own mind to VOldemort that way). So he had to find another teacher, and the only one (as in *only* one :p) around was Snape.

by Colli

Snape WOULD have to be an excellent occlumens to fool Voldemort, but then what's that say about Harry's possible Legilimens skills if he was able to begin to probe into Snape's memories (ie his father and mother)? Uh oh. I sense an inconsistency on JKR´s part there.

Harry isn´t such a natural after all, or Voldemort wouldn´t have been able to penetrate his mind.

Telchar, on the other possible Legilimentes -

McGonagall basically does and says everything Dumbledore would do or say, too. She´s deep in his confidence, she knows what´s at stake, it´s natural that she´d take Harry´s dreams and visions seriously.

Sirius and Lupin might just be, well, extremely good friends and know each other extremely well. I´m sure everyone of you has had moments of a kind of "Legilimency" understanding with another person before, I certainly have. :)

As for all of them being powerful wizards, the fact that you´re good at languages doesn´t automatically mean you´re good at maths, too.

Hi Drizella! :wave: Welcome to Snapedom!

Great points - I completely agree with this: After all, it's 'an obscure branch of magic' and if she were to make several others gifted in it, I feel like it would lose some of its power and weight in the story. If it turns out that a handful of other characters are skilled as well, I would be disappointed.

As for Snape´s changing sides,

by Serphy

I think it could have been a bit of both in terms of the two scenarios you suggested. That he left the DEs of his own accord for one, or various, reasons and found himself outcast in the wizarding world with nowhere to turn, so Dumbledore invited him to join the Order. I like this, too. It´s a good compromise between the two extremes. by Serphy

But then I really like your suggestion of Dumbledore blackmailing him. It suits his character so well Well, it suits Snape's character, but does it suit Dumbledore`s? I'm not so sure about that any more.

by Serphy

I can't help feeling that Dumbledore's always had this fondness and hope for him, even when he was messing up his life joining the DE. I really like that thought, too. :) I can´t help thinking, Dumbledore must have known just how badly the Marauders used to bully Snape. Dumbledore knows a whole lot of things, I don´t believe this escaped him. I wonder why he didn´t intervene - this was far worse than the usual house rivalry and little fights that may solve themselves without the teachers interfering. On the contrary, Dumbledore seems to have been particularly fond of James and Sirius et. al. :rolleyes:

Maybe Dumbledore realised later that he had done Snape an injustice when he was still at school, and he tried to make up for it by taking Snape under his protection. Maybe he even kind of saw it as his fault that Snape joined the DE! :eek: by Serphy

we don't know how long Snape had been working for the Order (not long enough to be in Moody's photo). Good observation!
For all we know he could have changed sides the day he told Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters (if it was him, obviously) and after the night they died the Order was no longer needed. Hm. But how deos this fit in with "Dumbledore had a number of useful spies in his service, and one of them tipped the Potters off?" And where was the "great personal risk" for Snape if he only changed sides at the very last minute?

So many ifs, indeed. :)

Marchwarden

08-05-2003, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
Uh oh. I sense an inconsistency on JKR´s part there.

Harry isn´t such a natural after all, or Voldemort wouldn´t have been able to penetrate his mind.

I doubt that Harry could have made contact with Snape's mind if Snape were on defense. The sense I got was that, while attacking Harry, Snape was necessarily vulnerable to counterattack, in much the same way that a staff-fighter who attacks must necessarily give up his fullest guard.

Kristin

08-06-2003, 12:28 AM

About when Snape switched sides...

First of all, we know it was before Voldemort's downfall. Second, I don't think his absence from the Order photo means anything. As a spy, it was probably better that he be known to as few people as necessary. That way there was no risk of a DE getting that information out of a member of the Order (through Imperius or Cruciatus curses). For Snape to function effectively as a spy and for Dumbledore to be able to use him as a spy, Snape's loyalties had to be a closely-guarded secret.

About Legilimency/Occlumency...

It's important to note that these are two separate (but related) skills. It's possible that talent in one means talent in the other. But we also can't dismiss the possibility that someone could be talented in Legilimency and not Occlumency. I'm thinking here of Harry's being able to look into Snape's mind at one point (Legilimency) but never being able to keep Snape from seeing his thoughts (Occlumency).

It's possible that other characters are skilled in Legilimency/Occlumency... but for now I'm going to assume that the only ones are Voldemort, Dumbledore and Snape (and not Sirius, Lupin or McGonagall).

Seriphus

08-06-2003, 08:16 AM

Well, it suits Snape's character, but does it suit Dumbledore`s? I'm not so sure about that any more. Well yes and no. I think the word 'blackmail' is harsh, Dumbledore wouldn't do that, as such. But he has shown himself to have a quite no-nonsense attitude, like when he was giving Fudge the choice of either accepting or denying Voldemort's return. He can lay out the choices someone has quite forcefully and then leave them to make their own decision. Therefore, he could have shown Snape that he had two realistic choices - Askaban or the Order. If Snape was so incredibly immersed in the DEs activities it may well have taken 'scary Dumbledore' to bring him to his senses. If Dumbledore really did care about Snape I could see him employing 'scare-tactics' if he truly believed it would have a positive result.
Maybe Dumbledore realised later that he had done Snape an injustice when he was still at school, and he tried to make up for it by taking Snape under his protection. Maybe he even kind of saw it as his fault that Snape joined the DE! Yeah, possibly he holds a bit of guilt in regards to Snape, that he didn't intervene sooner, in a similar way to him misjudging when to tell Harry about the prophecy.
But the fact that he doesn't seem to have stopped James and Sirius attacking Snape suggests to me that Snape wasn't the innocent victim he appears in book 5. I don't think his absence from the Order photo means anything. As a spy, it was probably better that he be known to as few people as necessary. That way there was no risk of a DE getting that information out of a member of the Order (through Imperius or Cruciatus curses). For Snape to function effectively as a spy and for Dumbledore to be able to use him as a spy, Snape's loyalties had to be a closely-guarded secret. That's very true, but then it doesn't seem wise to have a photo of all the members of your secret order either. I get the impression that Moody doesn't always use a lot of common sense. ;) Maybe Snape took the photo. :D I doubt that Harry could have made contact with Snape's mind if Snape were on defense. The sense I got was that, while attacking Harry, Snape was necessarily vulnerable to counterattack, in much the same way that a staff-fighter who attacks must necessarily give up his fullest guard. Snape's use of a wand suggests that it was a slightly different way than normal for performing legilimency (Voldemort would only need eye contact, not a spell), perhaps Snape is not as accomplished at legilimency as he is at occlumency. And maybe doing it that way leaves him more vunerable to a counter-attack.And on a purely practical level, it would be quite helpful for the deputy headmistress to be a mind-reader. Tut, tut, Telchar. Only muggles talk of "mind-reading". The mind is not a book to be opened at will and examined at leisure... ;) :p

Telchar II

08-09-2003, 07:09 PM

Hey, it's JKR's metaphor, not mine. Harry seems to think teachers read his mind a lot. :D

Lord Schaudt

08-10-2003, 10:10 AM

If i have one complaint it is that book five makes snape out to be the wronged bad guy, not very nice but everyone just stomps on him. mayhaps this is a lead up to something?

Question of the day: What if Harry called Snape Snivellus during a class?

PhineasNigellus

08-10-2003, 10:38 AM

:jawdrop:

Seriphus

08-10-2003, 11:41 AM

If i have one complaint it is that book five makes snape out to be the wronged bad guy, not very nice but everyone just stomps on him. mayhaps this is a lead up to something? A complaint because Snape isn't a wronged bad guy, but a downright nasty bloke after all?
I think a lot of Snape's rather.. er.. charming ( ;) ) personality traits come from the fact that he has been stomped on a lot. I doubt I'd be so obsessed with him if I didn't think that he'd been hurt a lot in the past by other people.
Book 5 seems to have made a lot of people feel kind of sorry for Snape and I think that in the last books we're going to see a much nastier side to him than we've seen already. One that will test all but the most die-hard Snape fans' sympathies. :) Question of the day: What if Harry called Snape Snivellus during a class? :LOL: I couldn't see Master Potter surviving to the end of book 7.

Kristin

08-10-2003, 03:55 PM

Remember though that all of Snape's bad traits are not simply a reaction to how he was treated in school.

I think Sirius mentions that Snape knew loads of curses and hexes in his first year and that he was always heavily immersed in learning the Dark Arts (and not just for defense).

He hated the Marauders because they were mean to him (and probably for other reasons as well). But what justification did he have to hate Lily, to call her a Mudblood?

He's not just a character who goes bad because he was so wronged. I think Snape just has some innate nastiness.

Fenchurch

08-10-2003, 10:14 PM

Kristin said:
I think Snape just has some innate nastiness.
Yes - but whyyyyyyyy?

(Hi. :))

Colli

08-11-2003, 02:22 AM

LOL Lord Schaudt, I read a hilarious fanfic one time about Hermione using a list of things to annoy Snape. Calling him by his first name was one of them. I can't IMAGINE what he'd do to Harry if he called him "Snivellus."

Snape is such a nasty person! I can't WAIT for my diehard fan position to be tested. :)

Fenchurch, welcome! :hug: Are you named after Douglas Adams' Fenchurch? She's one of my favorite Hitchhiker characters. :)

Fenchurch

08-11-2003, 12:07 PM

Thanks, Colli. :) That is where I got my name! :D (For those of you who care to know, I did post at COE as Anais, and I am the person who actually began this thread almost a year ago - imagine my surprise when I checked this place out after OotP came out - and saw my thread still up! :eek: :D)

I absolutely loved Snape in book 5, and I think there's still a lot more going on with him than we know. JKR gave us some insights and clues, though - at least she threw us a bone. ;)

I mean, I suppose it could all boil down to him being just a downright naturally mean person, but where would the excitement be in that? I can't believe it. (Besides, it's hard to pick out the logic of a naturally mean person going out of his way and putting his safety at risk by joining the Order of his own volition. [Or even, as others have suggested, of someone else's volition.])

Ah! :swoon:

Telchar II

08-11-2003, 08:38 PM

Because, Kristin, that whole Mudblood business is a planted -- i.e., modified -- memory. :D

Pippin

08-11-2003, 08:54 PM

Fenchurch/Anais! :hug: Welcome back to your Snape thread! It´s great you´ve joined us again! :)

About Snape changing sides -

by Serphy

Dumbledore can lay out the choices someone has quite forcefully and then leave them to make their own decision. Therefore, he could have shown Snape that he had two realistic choices - Askaban or the Order. If Snape was so incredibly immersed in the DEs activities it may well have taken 'scary Dumbledore' to bring him to his senses. If Dumbledore really did care about Snape I could see him employing 'scare-tactics' if he truly believed it would have a positive result. Maybe. I still don´t quite see it, I´m afraid. Maybe it´s just me wanting a better reason for Snape to change sides than saving his own neck.

Maybe Snape took the photo. I think that settles the matter. :p

by Lord Schaudt

If i have one complaint it is that book five makes snape out to be the wronged bad guy, not very nice but everyone just stomps on him. Well, books 1 – 4 made him out to be the evil bad guy, so it´s kinda fair we should hear a bit more about the other side of things… but I don´t think we´ve heard the last about the Snape – Marauders relationship yet. I don´t mean to make excuses for the Marauders (they certainly haven´t deserved that :mad: ) but we haven´t got the whole picture yet. I think.

by Serphy

I doubt I'd be so obsessed with him if I didn't think that he'd been hurt a lot in the past by other people. Amen, sister! :)

Book 5 seems to have made a lot of people feel kind of sorry for Snape and I think that in the last books we're going to see a much nastier side to him than we've seen already. One that will test all but the most die-hard Snape fans' sympathies. Oh, yes please. I sign up for that test, too. :D

Why, and how do you think he´s going to become even nastier, Serphy?

by Kristin

Remember though that all of Snape's bad traits are not simply a reaction to how he was treated in school. No, but remember that he´d had a rather unhappy childhood even before he went to school. I´m not saying that an unhappy childhood excuses everything but it usually explains a lot. I don´t believe that people are either inherently good or inherently nasty –it´s not only their own fault when the way others treat them brings out the worst in them instead of the best.

As Fenchurch has pointed out, inherent nastiness wouldn´t only be, well, nasty, but also uninteresting. Snape, from what little we know of his past, is just so much more complex than “just nasty”.

And I´m not sure – this is still along the lines of “good but not nice” – if we maybe still look too much at how he treats people and talks to them, instead of looking at how he acts and reacts when it REALLY matters.

That’s why I love the scene in OotP so much when the DA are caught and Snape is called to Umbridge’s office. What you see on the outside there (the way he talks to the kids) is just his usual Snapish nastiness, but what he DOES speaks so differently. I mean, he basically saves the day, and saves it brilliantly.

It´s a great example of how close being good and being not nice can get when you´re Snape.

Serphy, could you check your PMs, please? :)

Lady Haleth

08-12-2003, 09:24 AM

"Good but not nice" nostalgia trip... Remember the "wow" factor when reading SS/PS for the first time and finding out that Snape was protecting Harry during the Quidditch match attack? That was our first indication that Snape was not your typical two dimensional villain (as opposed to Flat Draco and his equally Flat friends). Even after five books we still can't be sure which side he is really on. Whatever happens in 6&7, Snape is a brilliant character and JKR is playing with our emotions superbly by making us sympathize with him one moment and revile him the next.

Drizella

08-12-2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Pippin
What you see on the outside there (the way he talks to the kids) is just his usual Snapish nastiness, but what he DOES speaks so differently.
*sigh*... Mr. Behind-the-scenes.... :swoon:

I really wonder how Harry's going to deal with his (unjustified!) anger towards Snape in book 6. By the end of Book 5 Harry's still angry with him, clearly looking for someone to blame. Yet even though Snape ultimately saved the day, it still must be difficult for Harry to appreciate someone who downright offends him nearly every time they're in the same room.

I want to see some revelations on Harry's part! He and Snape need a heart-to-heart. :p

Pippin

08-15-2003, 01:47 PM

Remember the "wow" factor when reading SS/PS for the first time and finding out that Snape was protecting Harry during the Quidditch match attack? Wow indeed! :o

*sigh*... Mr. Behind-the-scenes.... You can say that again... :swoon:

I remember this was definitely the moment of my first swoon for Snape. It was so unexpected and so infinitely cool of him, it was like, hey, there's much more to this guy than I´d thought.... and it's still getting more and more...

Talk of nostalgia trips - I´m currently re-reading GoF and remembering that it wasn´t before this books that we really got any insights into Snape´s history... I mean we knew about school and the Marauders before that, but nothing about the whole DE business.... It's so great how JKR slowly unfolds his story. I´m sure we're still in for a few more surprises!

OK guys, I´m going on holiday now, have a good time, and see you back in Potions in the new school year! :D :wave:

Kristin

08-19-2003, 09:13 PM

Here's a new conundrum for me regarding Snape:

In PoA, in the Shrieking Shack scenes, Snape enters just as Lupin starts talking about how he's a werewolf. He hears the werewolf story and about how James, Sirius and Peter became animagi and their nicknames of Prongs, Padfoot and Wormtail. Only after the animagi revelation does Snape reveal himself.

Snape obviously believes Sirius is guilty. Snape hates Sirius and is quite upset when Sirius escapes.

So why does Snape not tell Fudge (or anyone else) that Sirius is an animagus?

Gwaewyn

08-22-2003, 11:37 AM

WOW. I've reached the end...

Before I start: Colli, I love your signature! You wouldn't be aound the Rep. of Pemberley by any chance? Only they sell that Dashwood-quotation on mugs and T-shirts...)

Well, here's my thoughts on Snape. As I have to comment on 10 pages of your ideas, please excuse my jumping back a bit...

1. DADA-teacher position: If I remember correctly (which I may not), it was Percy who first informed Harry that "everybody knows it's the Quirrel's job he wants", or something to that effect. Well, quite aside from Percy possibly exaggerating the certainty of this fact a bit to appear very knowledgeable, could it be that this rumour owes its existance entirely to the fact that Snape did indeed hate Quirrel? It would make sense to me that the students, being frustrated and afraid of Snape, would love to find a weakness in him and talk about it. And IF Snape really does want the DADA job, I am sure he would want it to prepare the students rather than because of some sick fascination with the Dark Arts as such. After all, a former Death-Eater would be perfect for the job. Remember him telling Harry about Monkswood and Wolfsbane in their very first clash? It was perhaps not very pedagogical of him, and he was horribly unjust, but he did provide a vital piece of information. Anyway, I think potions is THE job for Snape, and I can't imagine him being unhappy with the subject as such, though he does seem to be perpetually dissatisfied with his students. Maybe he is just seriously frustrated with his pupils because he is so advanced himself, and he thinks, correctly perhaps, that they don't really appreciate the necessity of not making any mistakes if their skills should ever really be put to the test.

2. Death-Eater: Voldemort, like any successful dictator, probably started his reign of terror very gradually. I could well imagine that Snape, perhaps frustrated with the fact that the general wizarding world was not as ambitious or as strong as he is, joined the Death-Eaters when they were still a more or less acceptable club or movement, and then got caught in their web. If he was bullied a lot it would be natural to want to belong to a strong group, I imagine. I'm not excusing him for one moment, but it takes a lot more greatness to get out of such a thing in time than to never touch it. I do think he left when he realized just what exactly Lord Voldemort meant. He may have wanted power, he may even have wished to be more "selective" in chosing Hogwarts students, but I don't think he would have been a racist. He is way too intelligent to fall for that sort of thing.

3. Snape-Harry relationship: I was hoping for much more in terms of the Harry-Snape relationship as well. The whole occlumency-chapter was SUCH a chance for development in that direction, and it was about time too, I still cannot believe JKR didn't pursue it further. BUT I tend to blame Harry more than I blame Snape. True, they might have told him WHY it is he needs to learn these things, especially since Harry knows a great deal already and should be included in things so closely concerned with himself, but still Harry is so stubborn it drives me mad. After the memory in the pensieve (do you really think it's Dumbledore's?) one would have thought he might reconsider his unconditional hatred of Snape. NOW Snape does have a fair reason to hate him. (Though I cannot help but think a part of him is glad Harry finally got his eyes opend about his father.)

Maybe Snape just wants to make Harry work harder all along? Like these kinds of teachers.

Yes. I am not sure if Snape hates Harry utterly and completely. As I said above, I could imagine he is frustrated with a general lack of ambition or achievement, and wants Harry above all others to be a lot better at magic than he is. (Then again, he hates Hermione as well, that's strange. Maybe he wants to push all except the Slytherins, for whom all hope is useless anyway? :D) I have known teachers who never give perfect grades to students whom they think capable of improvement, no matter how well they do. Very wrong approach I think, but it exists.

[OT: I forgot who said it, but growing up does not finish when you move out and leave your family. That's when it really starts.]

I have a feeling that we will find out before the end that Snape has some very good reason for doing what he does, though nothing can excuse his terrifying generations of students. And I do think that at some point he and Harry will find themselves cooperating, and then probably both, or Harry at least, will suddenly understand the other, though there may never be an open reconcilliation.

Kristin

08-22-2003, 04:32 PM

Welcome to the Snape thread Gwaewyn! :wave: And let me just say I'm incredibly impressed that you read this whole thread! :notworthy :clap: (Though it is one of the most interesting ones.)

I do think the whole Snape wanting the DADA job is overplayed. I'm sure he would want the job. But he also seems to be very happy teaching potions.

And I think Snape's knowledge of potions is very interesting. It seems like any wizard adult can perform most spells easily. But we frequently see Snape as the only one who knows how to make certain potions. And Snape has a greater respect for the art of potion-making than any other character, as well as greater knowledge. (So I think Snape probably knows it would be a shame to take him away from teaching potions.)

Interesting thought about Snape just wanting to challenge Harry. Possible... but I guess we'll have to wait and see for sure.

Gwaewyn

08-23-2003, 05:51 PM

Thanks, Kristin! :wave:
I must confess that, after page eight or so, I scanned rather than read the posts. ;) But it is very interesting. You all mention so many things that quite escaped my notice, though I have read the earlier books several times. Must re-read them with new OotP-perspective on things, though... ;)
[We need an *eyelids getting heavier and heavier*-smiley...]

swiftsnowmane

08-23-2003, 08:01 PM

I think the fact that James & Co. were terrible to Snape certainly gives him a reason, but not a right to hate Harry. While Harry may have be aggravating to Snape later on in the books, it was certainly never fair of Snape to hate Harry right off in his first year just for being James' son. I can't even imagine the hatred Snape must have for James to be so immediately prejudiced to Harry. :(

stridersghirl

08-24-2003, 04:52 PM

sorry if this has been mentioned but im too lazy to read through all the pages :o :o

I was reading the goblet of fire again, the most intriguing thing about Snape to me is in Dumbledore's memory at the trial.

He said that Snape turned spy at great risk to his own life and helped catch the death eaters .

So why does Lucius Malfoy like him so much when betrayed Voldemort ?

Dumbledore trusts him as well when he was a death eater ?

How can both sides trust him, and is he on anyside or his just out for himself ?

Also wondering what he does to make Sirius hate him so much. In the OOTP memory it seems that Sirius doesnt hate him really, he's just bored so picks on him, but in the end he utterly despises him.

JK leaves so many gaps it drives me nuts !!

Seriphus

09-03-2003, 01:32 PM

I don't know, I've been on holiday for two weeks and you guys haven't even made it to the next page! ;) :p

Hi Gwaewyn, well done for reading through our posts and for giving us some good points to mull over. :)

Why, and how do you think he´s going to become even nastier, Serphy? Not so much that he becomes nastier in the next books, but maybe that we find out about things he's done that make us realise that he's a lot worse as a person than we perceive at the moment. Like, just as a for instance, we could find out that he had played a part in torturing the Longbottoms. That sort of thing. Remember the "wow" factor when reading SS/PS for the first time and finding out that Snape was protecting Harry during the Quidditch match attack? I love that bit, the first little taste of his complexity. I was trying to remember the exact point where he became my favourite character just this morning and that's it.
Anyway, I think potions is THE job for Snape, and I can't imagine him being unhappy with the subject as such, though he does seem to be perpetually dissatisfied with his students. I really can't beleive that he'd rather teach DADA and I think I've said already that I was quite disappointed to discover he actually has applied for the job every year (even though the reason for this may not be clear cut). With his 'As there is little foolish wand-waving... speech and this bit from CoS...

'Excuse me,' said Snape icily, 'but I believe I am the Potions master at this school.' (CoS, chpt 9, The Writing on the Wall)

...he sounds to me like he's proud of his position. If he was all sulky about not teaching DADA he might let Lockhart make the potion, but he's actually very protective over that privilege. The dissatifaction with the students suggests to me that he's not happy about a lack of shared enthusiasm for the subject. I'm not excusing him for one moment, but it takes a lot more greatness to get out of such a thing in time than to never touch it. That's very true. Snape's fighting a hard battle because not only is he expected to oppose Voldemort, he's supposed to oppose the whole use of Dark magic, which seems to be such an essential part of himself - in his early years at least - it must almost be like fighting an addiction, with constant temptation to go back to his old ways and interests.And I do think that at some point he and Harry will find themselves cooperating, and then probably both, or Harry at least, will suddenly understand the other, though there may never be an open reconcilliation. I'm sort of hoping that open reconcilliation will never happen. They've both gone too far into hating each other to really ever be on friendly terms, but I would like to see them in a situation that involves both cooperation and trust of each other. They've gone some way towards a partial understanding of each other in book 5 and this could well develop in the last books.

I have known teachers who never give perfect grades to students whom they think capable of improvement, no matter how well they do. Very wrong approach I think, but it exists. Snape could well be one of those teachers. I had one just like that at school and he did push me to try and get those extra marks and even though it was infuriating it worked. It's not in Snape's personality to be nice to the students and to give them kindly encouragement, so this is a way that he could push them to do better. I don't think Snape's a bad teacher, he just has a different method of getting results.So why does Lucius Malfoy like him so much when betrayed Voldemort ? OK I may be overlooking some vital evidence here, but I've been thinking this over quite a lot recently and I'm not at all convinced that Lucius and Snape are particularly good friends. From book 5 we know that Lucius is 41, which makes him about six years Snape's senior. Therefore I think it's unlikely that they know each other from school, maybe they knew of each other, but it would be highly unusual for sixth-formers to hang around with first years. Of course they may have had family connexions, but I'm going on what we know from the books so far.
Also from Karkaroff's '- we never knew the names of every one of our fellows - he alone knew exactly who we all were -' we can't be sure that they each knew the other was a DE and if they weren't friends beforehand we can't expect them to have confessed their membership to each other.
This passage from CoS...

'You have told me this at least a dozen times already,' said Mr Malfoy, with a quelling look at his son, 'and I would remind you that it is not - prudent -
to appear less than fond of Harry Potter, not when most of our kind regard him as the hero who made the Dark Lord disappear - ah, Mr Borgin.' (CoS, chpt 4, At Flourish and Blotts)

...suggests that perhaps the only reason Lucius Malfoy has this apparent fondness for Snape is that Snape has, less than prudently, shown a dislike of Harry from day one, which hints to Lucius that he has sympatheis with the Dark Lord.

If this is the case then Lucius would not necessarily know that Snape had betrayed Voldemort, he wouldn't even know for sure that Snape had been a DE. The only evidence of Snape changing sides that members of the wizarding world (other than the main characters) have witnessed so far in the books is Dumbledore's testimony in GoF. We don't know whether or not Lucius heard about that.

Pippin

09-08-2003, 08:40 AM

Posted by Kristin

In PoA, in the Shrieking Shack scenes, Snape enters just as Lupin starts talking about how he's a werewolf. He hears the werewolf story and about how James, Sirius and Peter became animagi and their nicknames of Prongs, Padfoot and Wormtail. Only after the animagi revelation does Snape reveal himself.
Snape obviously believes Sirius is guilty. Snape hates Sirius and is quite upset when Sirius escapes.
So why does Snape not tell Fudge (or anyone else) that Sirius is an animagus?
Good question. Quite puzzling, really. Maybe Dumbledore didn’t allow him to tell anyone? But at the end of PoA, when Snape tells Fudge his version of the events in the Shack, Dumbledore’s not there to stop him. And Snape doesn’t seem to be in a state to control carefully which pieces of information to pass on and which to keep to himself. But maybe he was being a little incoherent and there was no time to explain everything, and later on Dumbledore made him keep it quiet.

I don’t know, really, I admit. Any other thoughts on this?

Welcome to Snapedom, Gwaewyn! :wave: You make a lot of good points there!

Posted by Gwaewyn
If I remember correctly (which I may not), it was Percy who first informed Harry that "everybody knows it's the Quirrel's job he wants", or something to that effect. Well, quite aside from Percy possibly exaggerating the certainty of this fact a bit to appear very knowledgeable, could it be that this rumour owes its existance entirely to the fact that Snape did indeed hate Quirrel? It would make sense to me that the students, being frustrated and afraid of Snape, would love to find a weakness in him and talk about it. Hm. Like Serphy, I was a little disappointed that this rumour (we only ever hear it as a rumour) was actually true, because I was expecting that it was a red herring and there was a big story behind it. But now, although I think that we shouldn’t be too quick to take anything Snape tells Umbridge at face value, I think we have to accept that that’s how it was, Snape had his reasons to want the job, and Dumbledore had his reasons not to give it to him.

Well, so what are the reasons?

First, for Snape: He was clearly fascinated by the Dark Arts, at least in his younger years, and he was probably good at them, too (“knew more curses when he came to Hogwarts than a seventh year normally would”, severe paraphrase, you all know which quote I mean).

But after all this, after his DE years, changing sides, Voldemort’s downfall, would he still be fascinated with them, would he still want to spend a lot of time studying and teaching them? The answer to this probably lies in the reason why he changed sides, and since we still don’t know anything about that, all we can do is guess.

Scenario 1: IF he changed sides to save his own neck, or because he was pressured into it, he probably hasn’t abandoned his interest in the Dark Arts as such, and he’d still want to work with them, I suppose.

Scenario 2: But IF it was something really noble that made Snape changes sides, such as recognising the wrong of his ways, I don’t think he’d still want to have anything to do with the Dark Arts.

Which makes it very probable that his reasons to change sides are those of Scenario 1 rather than 2 (darn, 2 was so much more romantic :p).

It would also explain why Dumbledore didn’t want Snape to teach DADA, he didn’t trust him with it.

After all, a former Death-Eater would be perfect for the job. Would he? Dumbledore clearly disagrees. It depends what kind of DE it was, why he joined, I mean, and what made him become a *former* DE.

Which brings us to Dumbledore’s reasons. If, as Gwaewyn suggested, IF Snape really does want the DADA job, I am sure he would want it to prepare the students rather than because of some sick fascination with the Dark Arts as such. then there’d be no reason at all why Dumbledore wouldn’t let him. At the start of Harry’s fifth year at the LATEST Dumbledore would have let Snape teach DADA, rather than have Umbridge planted at Hogwarts by the Ministry. So there must be a more important reason for Dumbledore not to want Snape to teach DADA, other than him being a great potion-maker.

by Serphy
Snape's fighting a hard battle because not only is he expected to oppose Voldemort, he's supposed to oppose the whole use of Dark magic, which seems to be such an essential part of himself - in his early years at least - it must almost be like fighting an addiction, with constant temptation to go back to his old ways and interests. Excellent analysis, Serphy! Sounds very plausible to me. I admit, I don’t like the idea of Snape (or anyone, for that matter) being inherently bad, but the “addiction” image is a very good comparison. That’s how it must feel to him – he probably rationally knows it’s bad for him, but it’s still hard to stay clear of it. I can see that. And Dumbledore knows and understands this and won’t lead Snape into temptation.

But then, doesn’t using him as a spy on the DE mean taking a terrible risk that he’d just change sides again?

I think potions is THE job for Snape, and I can't imagine him being unhappy with the subject as such, though he does seem to be perpetually dissatisfied with his students. Maybe he is just seriously frustrated with his pupils because he is so advanced himself, and he thinks, correctly perhaps, that they don't really appreciate the necessity of not making any mistakes if their skills should ever really be put to the test. That’s quite true. It sometimes happens with teachers, doesn’t it, that they’re so advanced and immersed in their subject that they can’t understand how anyone can not be. They’re usually very impatient with their students.

I think, while Snape clearly enjoys Potions and knows he’s brilliant at it, he still doesn’t like teaching. He’d probably be happier doing academic potions research at a Wizarding university where he can sit in his lab and experiment and discover brilliant things and write complicated scientific articles about them without having to waste his time teaching the dunderheads at Hogwarts.

I think it’s quite interesting that Snape likes Potions so much, it tells a lot about his character. Snape is probably a rather scientific mind, quite a logical and calculating mind. Think of his riddle at the end of HP PS, when Hermione says “it’s not magic, it’s logic”.

And remember in the Occlumency chapter, he tells Harry: “You have no subtlety, Potter. You do not understand fine distinctions. It is one of the shortcomings that makes you such a lamentable potion-maker.”

Now, while Snape *sometimes* isn`t a exactly a role model of subtlety either, particularly not in his relationship with his students, think of how he handles his spy or double agent (or whatever exactly it is) job, and his Occlumency. If that isn’t all about subtlety and fine distinctions, I don’t know what is.

Why Snape joined the DE -

by Gwaewyn
I could well imagine that Snape, perhaps frustrated with the fact that the general wizarding world was not as ambitious or as strong as he is, joined the Death-Eaters when they were still a more or less acceptable club or movement, and then got caught in their web. If he was bullied a lot it would be natural to want to belong to a strong group, I imagine. I think the last thing – the bullying, and wanting to be on the winning side for once – must have been a strong incentive for him to join the DE. So the DE kind of were his chance to “be someone” at last. Maybe not so different from the way Neville comes into his own in the DA!

Remember he was in the Slytherin gang “who nearly all turned out to be DE” – once he’d found his place in the gang, it must have been quite logical to move on into the DE movement with them. Peer pressure. As a loner and bully victim, Snape must always have been terribly afraid of getting kicked out of his gang at some point, which would leave him entirely without protection, so maybe he went along with some things that he wouldn’t have done if he’d had other friends.

He may have wanted power, he may even have wished to be more "selective" in chosing Hogwarts students, but I don't think he would have been a racist. He is way too intelligent to fall for that sort of thing. I agree. And we don’t know at all if Snape really shares, or ever shared, Voldemort’s and his supporters’ racist beliefs. We’ve never heard him say anything bad about Muggles, have we (except some expressions of general wizarding arrogance and superiority which many wizards seem to have towards Muggles). We’ve never heard him call anyone a Mudblood, and if he lets Draco do this unpunished, it might be part of a scheme to appear to favour Draco, not a sign that he agrees with him.

We don’t even know about his family, who says they weren’t Muggles? (Although he’s got this sort of old fashioned first name that usually only wizards would give their kids.)

Pippin

09-08-2003, 08:41 AM

Double post due to post length, sorry mods! :)

Snape and Harry -

Gwaewyn again

I was hoping for much more in terms of the Harry-Snape relationship as well. The whole occlumency-chapter was SUCH a chance for development in that direction, and it was about time too, I still cannot believe JKR didn't pursue it further. But she pursued it awfully far. After the Occlumency lessons, I kind of felt like Snape’s and Harry’S relationship will never be the same again, and I don’t think it will. We’ll have to see. Already in OotP, it says somewhere that Potions lessons feel kind of unreal to Harry, with all his new background knowledge.

After the memory in the pensieve (do you really think it's Dumbledore's?) The memory or the pensieve? one would have thought he might reconsider his unconditional hatred of Snape. NOW Snape does have a fair reason to hate him. (Though I cannot help but think a part of him is glad Harry finally got his eyes opened about his father.) I’m not sure about the last bit. When Snape catches Harry looking at his “worst memory”, he’s actually convinced that Harry thinks it’s fun, he doesn’t even look at Harry properly or he’d have realised that Harry was genuinely shocked.

Posted by swiftsnowmane
I think the fact that James & Co. were terrible to Snape certainly gives him a reason, but not a right to hate Harry. Exactly.

I am not sure if Snape hates Harry utterly and completely. Well, I am. Or, as I said, Snape hates James utterly and completely and he hasn’t yet realised Harry isn’t James.

I can see how Snape taunting his students could be a sick and twisted way of challenging them to work harder but I don’t think that’s what he was trying to achieve with Harry. If it was, he might have been strict and demanding, but would he have been as unfair as he is?

He’s certainly challenging Harry like this in the Occlumency lessons, but somehow I can’t believe that he’s been treating Harry badly in Potions for years because he wanted him to do well.

Gwaewyn, if at the start of book 6 we find Harry Snape’s NEWTs Potions class and Snape is actually *happy* about it, I’ll buy you a drink. :D

by Serphy
I'm sort of hoping that open reconcilliation will never happen. They've both gone too far into hating each other to really ever be on friendly terms, but I would like to see them in a situation that involves both cooperation and trust of each other. Yes.

by Gwaewyn
[OT: I forgot who said it, but growing up does not finish when you move out and leave your family. That's when it really starts.] It is OT, but it is very true. :)

Posted by stridersghirl
I was reading the goblet of fire again, the most intriguing thing about Snape to me is in Dumbledore's memory at the trial.
He said that Snape turned spy at great risk to his own life and helped catch the death eaters .
So why does Lucius Malfoy like him so much when betrayed Voldemort ?
Dumbledore trusts him as well when he was a death eater ?
How can both sides trust him, and is he on anyside or his just out for himself ?
My theory is this: We know most trials at the Ministry are public and journalists are allowed in there (we see Rita Skeeter). But some aren’t, like Harry’s hearing in OotP (MR Weasley leaves him at the door saying “I’m not allowed”). So not all sessions and decisions of the Wizengamot are made public. I imagine when Dumbledore “vouched” for him and the council “cleared” Snape, it was kept secret. Maybe because Snape was still needed as a spy, because not all DE were caught and brought to justice then. Dumbledore and the Ministry probably agreed that his changing sides must remain a secret.

That’s the only logical explanantion, I think. If Snape’s job in OotP is based on him being able to convince the DE that he’s never truly abandoned their cause (and so far we haven’t found a convincing alternative how else he should be able to spy on them), it must be because they didn’t ever know.

by Serphy

I'm not at all convinced that Lucius and Snape are particularly good friends. Neither am I – not friends maybe, but they clearly know each other, and “Malfoy speaks highly of Snape”. I think there’s more behind that than a mutual dislike for Harry. It’s weird, JKR stresses ever so often that not all DE knew each other but then apparently an awful lot of them did know an awful lot of others. In the graveyard at the end of GoF, Voldemort addresses many of them by name, for example, Karkaroff knows quite a few names as well… I think Lucius knows Snape to have been a DE but never knew about him changing sides.

From book 5 we know that Lucius is 41, which makes him about six years Snape's senior. Oh, isn’t Lucius *younger* than Snape and the Marauders? I always thought they were a few years *his* senior, which would explain why Malfoy isn’t mentioned as one of Snape’s DE gang.

Posted by Seriphus

but maybe that we find out about things he's done that make us realise that he's a lot worse as a person than we perceive at the moment. Like, just as a for instance, we could find out that he had played a part in torturing the Longbottoms. That sort of thing. Whoa. I don’t know if I *want* to find out that sort of thing about him. :o

Snapdragon

09-09-2003, 05:59 AM

Oooh, Snape! My favourite character...although I also swoon for Lupin...difficult, but I hope dual swoonage is allowed! Here goes...:swoon: :swoon:

HI, Pippin:) Interesting Snape analysis in this thread. He's so complex and therefore so fascinating. I think he must be from one of the old wizarding families; his name, his youthful interest in DA (not likely for a muggle-born)..also he does call someone a Mudblood: Lily Evans in the Snape's Worst Memory chapter. She tells James to take the curse off Snape whose response is "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!"

Thus setting her against him too, perhaps, but she 's still angry with James for showing off.

Seriphus

09-11-2003, 11:43 AM

Hey, Snapdragon. I swoon for both Snape and Remus too so I think some dual swoonage can be allowed. :)

Scenario 1: IF he changed sides to save his own neck, or because he was pressured into it, he probably hasn’t abandoned his interest in the Dark Arts as such, and he’d still want to work with them, I suppose.

Scenario 2: But IF it was something really noble that made Snape changes sides, such as recognising the wrong of his ways, I don’t think he’d still want to have anything to do with the Dark Arts. But then Snape's so complicated you never know. ;) And he would be teaching Defence Against the Dark Arts, not the Dark Arts themselves, so technically working against their use. If it was the (romantic) second scenario he may still want to use his prior knowledge to teach students how to oppose the Dark Arts. Actually there doesn't have to be anything sinister about Snape wanting the DADA job at all. But then what does Dumbledore know that we don't? But then, doesn’t using him as a spy on the DE mean taking a terrible risk that he’d just change sides again? Good point. That doesn't seem to match with not letting him teach DADA. I've got a feeling that we may find out some more about his job applications in the last books (hopefully along with a long, drawn-out history of why he joined and left the DE :p ). I think, while Snape clearly enjoys Potions and knows he’s brilliant at it, he still doesn’t like teaching. He’d probably be happier doing academic potions research at a Wizarding university where he can sit in his lab and experiment and discover brilliant things and write complicated scientific articles about them without having to waste his time teaching the dunderheads at Hogwarts. LOL, I could see Snape writing detailed reports on Potions. :) I suppose that every so often he gets a student that really excels at Potions (probably in Slytherin as well), who he enjoys teaching, even if he doesn't show it, and this makes his job beneficial.
But I don't know - I'm having a hard time trying to imagine Snape enjoying teaching. :p Now, while Snape *sometimes* isn`t a exactly a role model of subtlety either, particularly not in his relationship with his students, think of how he handles his spy or double agent (or whatever exactly it is) job, and his Occlumency. If that isn’t all about subtlety and fine distinctions, I don’t know what is. Snape is definitely a subtle character, which is probably part of why I like him so much. There's so much about him that we don't see directly from Harry's perspective, but pick up from his actions (like his appreciation of Potions or his double-agent work). He was certainly subtle at protecting Harry in the first book and his sense of humour is also subtle - you either find him funny or you don't.So the DE kind of were his chance to “be someone” at last. Maybe not so different from the way Neville comes into his own in the DA! That's a great comparison, I'd never thought about it like that before, but in a way Neville is a bit of an outsider. Even though he's well-liked he's the odd-one-out of the Gryffindor boys and he doesn't have anything to show-off about except it's well-noted that he's very good at Herbology, kind of like Snape was marked out as being good at Dark Arts. Snape was picked on by James and Sirius in the way Draco picks on Neville, particularly in the first book before Neville begins to stand up for himself. And we know that Neville's had a pretty rough childhood, as may have Snape. They actually have quite a bit of common ground. Maybe that's why Snape picks on Neville so badly, he sees a lot of himself in Neville and it reminds him of his own time at Hogwarts, which he doesn't like at all. Picking on Neville could be a sort of unconcious coping mechanism.But she pursued it awfully far. After the Occlumency lessons, I kind of felt like Snape’s and Harry’s relationship will never be the same again, and I don’t think it will. We’ll have to see. Already in OotP, it says somewhere that Potions lessons feel kind of unreal to Harry, with all his new background knowledge. Everything seemed unreal to Harry by the end of book 5. :) How he relates to Snape after Sirius' death could be interesting, especially as his background knowledge doesn't paint a particularly nice picture of his beloved Godfather. The evolution of the Snape-Harry relationship is intrigueing and I really hope Harry does continue Potions so we can see just how much the relationship has changed.Neither am I – not friends maybe, but they clearly know each other, and “Malfoy speaks highly of Snape”. I think there’s more behind that than a mutual dislike for Harry. I think the mutual dislike for Harry is just an indicator to Lucius that they have a few more mutual interests, as non-DEs tend to show nothing but adoration for him. And of course his son has told him all sorts of wonderful things about his wonderful Potions master. :) I just don't want to assume that Lucius knows Snape was a DE. Oh, isn’t Lucius *younger* than Snape and the Marauders? I always thought they were a few years *his* senior, which would explain why Malfoy isn’t mentioned as one of Snape’s DE gang. I've always wondered where Lucius fitted into the timescale, but as Lily and James were about twenty when they had Harry it would have been difficult for Lucius to be much younger than them. ;)

Pippin

09-12-2003, 05:54 PM

Hi Snapdragon! :hug: Lovely to see you in here! :) We seem to share so many swooning preferences! :D

Of course dual swoonage is allowed, in OotP I swoon quite a bit for Sirius as well as Snape, and you’d think that was mutually exclusive… Swooning wouldn’t be the right term but I love Remus a lot, too. :)

by Snapdragon
I think he must be from one of the old wizarding families; his name, his youthful interest in DA (not likely for a muggle-born).. I agree, maybe Snape’s family background is not so much unlike the Blacks – scary to think that maybe, if he had had the right friends and if he’d been strong enough, he might have been able to escape it like Sirius did – and it’s quite sad to think that maybe it’s the Marauders’ fault in a way that he wasn’t strong enough, because the way they treated him made him resort even more to the Dark Arts and his “Dark” friends.

Equally disturbing, if it hadn’t been for the Marauders, would Sirius have turned out like Snape did, or worse? :eek:

also he does call someone a Mudblood: Lily Evans in the Snape's Worst Memory chapter. She tells James to take the curse off Snape whose response is "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" That’s true, I had overlooked that. Well, I think in this situation, what he really means to tell Lily is not “I despise you for being Muggle born”, I think it’s rather just “I really hate the fact that you’re here watching this”. You know, that sort of situation where something bad or stupid happens to you and you’re so embarrassed you go and vent your anger on someone who only wants to help? Just because you hate having been watched by them?

Anyway, back to racist beliefs, at least it might be safe to say that we’ve never heard the grown-up Snape call anyone a Mudblood, not the reformed Snape anyway. I guess at 15 he just used the word without thinking.

by Serphy

He would be teaching Defence Against the Dark Arts, not the Dark Arts themselves, so technically working against their use. If it was the (romantic) second scenario he may still want to use his prior knowledge to teach students how to oppose the Dark Arts. Actually there doesn't have to be anything sinister about Snape wanting the DADA job at all. But then what does Dumbledore know that we don't? Exactly, IF Dumbledore thought it would do him and/or his students any good, he would let him teach it!

But then, I really don’t know how having Snape teach DADA can be any worse or any more dangerous than having him as the Head of House for Slytherin? IF Dumbledore wasn’t sure that Snape was absolutely loyal to him, would he have put him there, in charge of all those kids from DE families?

(hopefully along with a long, drawn-out history of why he joined and left the DE). Yes! Please! :D

But I don't know - I'm having a hard time trying to imagine Snape enjoying teaching. Urgh, he definitely doesn’t. I think that was what used to make me think that Snape had to live at Hogwarts for his own protection and Dumbledore had to find a pretext for keeping him there – WHY else did that man have to become a teacher? :rolleyes:

I still can’t get rid of the sneaking feeling that maybe Dumbledore rather wanted to keep and eye on him… like Snape was on probation or something… which would account for his bitterness, really.

But then, how does that go along with Dumbledore’s “you’re here at my invitation” in GoF (unless Dumbledore’s wording here is deliberately misleading and mean)?

his sense of humour is also subtle - you either find him funny or you don't. Hm. In that case, I’d rather say it depends a lot on whether you’re on the receiving end or not. If I was, I certainly wouldn’t find him funny at all! :o

Snape and Neville:

Even though he's well-liked he's the odd-one-out of the Gryffindor boys and he doesn't have anything to show-off about except it's well-noted that he's very good at Herbology, kind of like Snape was marked out as being good at Dark Arts. Snape was picked on by James and Sirius in the way Draco picks on Neville, particularly in the first book before Neville begins to stand up for himself. And we know that Neville's had a pretty rough childhood, as may have Snape. They actually have quite a bit of common ground. I agree, they (meaning Neville and young Snape, of course) do have quite a bit in common.

Maybe that's why Snape picks on Neville so badly, he sees a lot of himself in Neville and it reminds him of his own time at Hogwarts, which he doesn't like at all. Picking on Neville could be a sort of unconcious coping mechanism. Exactly, I’m sure it is. Snape despises weak people because he despises himself (or his younger self) in them, so to speak. And Neville does seem extremely weak and vulnerable. He seems to be an eternal victim and a loser, just like Snape must have been at school. I’m quite sure that Snape sees a lot of himself (his younger self) in Neville and is kind of taking a late revenge now. He’s probably enjoying that it’s now him who does the bullying, and he probably thinks a weak person like Neville hasn’t deserved any better.

(Another typical coping mechanism for victims of bullying and violence, btw – trying to find reasons why you’ve deserved what’s happening to you, why it’s your own fault. Sounds weird, I know, but it seems to be easier to accept for the victim than the hugs injustice of something bad happening to you without you having deserved it.)

Back to Neville and Snape, this brings me back to another theory that I wanted to share – Neville is certainly Snape’s favourite student to pick on, apart from Harry – what if there is some other reason behind this, apart from the fact that Snape hates weak people? Neville’s parents were Aurors, after all, and very good at their job… could there have been a connection between Snape in the Longbottoms in the past, back in Snape's DE days? Something that Snape doesn’t like to be reminded of? Something that makes Snape want to take a late revenge on their son as well? :eek:

(I have no specific theories on this but it’s definitely the stuff wild speculation is made of! :o)

Snape and Harry:
How he relates to Snape after Sirius' death could be interesting, especially as his background knowledge doesn't paint a particularly nice picture of his beloved Godfather. I’m dying to see that. At the moment, Harry certainly doesn’t want to admit that Sirius had any faults at all, not even to his friends. I wonder if we’ll ever see Snape and Harry talking about Sirius, and what Snape might have to say on the matter. Maybe it will be something totally surprising.

I've always wondered where Lucius fitted into the timescale, but as Lily and James were about twenty when they had Harry it would have been difficult for Lucius to be much younger than them.The trouble is, we just don’t know. They could have been 20, or 25. We just don’t know how much time elapsed between Lily & James leaving school and Harry’s birth / Voldemort’s downfall. I just thought it was strange that Lucius Malfoy was never mentioned as one of Snape’s “gang” back at school, so he had to be either considerably older or younger, and if he’s 41 (which is the only fact we have, really, everything else is speculation) it seemed to me more likely that he was younger than the Marauders and Snape.

Seriphus

09-14-2003, 10:31 AM

Equally disturbing, if it hadn’t been for the Marauders, would Sirius have turned out like Snape did, or worse? :eek: I think Sirius was against the type of wizards his family were before he started Hogwarts so I don't think the Marauders made him turn against 'the dark side' or anything like that, but if he hadn't been friends with them he may have got into a bad group. Not that he and James were exactly nice at school :p . There seems to be something about Sirius that, even though he is similar to Snape in so many ways, suggests he would always oppose Voldemort. Anyway, back to racist beliefs, at least it might be safe to say that we’ve never heard the grown-up Snape call anyone a Mudblood, not the reformed Snape anyway. I guess at 15 he just used the word without thinking. I hope that's the case. I'm forever hoping that JKR will produce a Slytherin character who's not a nasty racist and it would annoy me if Snape turns out to be a mudblood-hater just like the rest of them.Urgh, he definitely doesn’t. I think that was what used to make me think that Snape had to live at Hogwarts for his own protection and Dumbledore had to find a pretext for keeping him there – WHY else did that man have to become a teacher? :rolleyes:

But then, how does that go along with Dumbledore’s “you’re here at my invitation” in GoF (unless Dumbledore’s wording here is deliberately misleading and mean)?
Maybe Snape has a bad reputation - similar to Remus who struggles to find paid work (cue a revival of the Snape's-a-vampire-theory :p ). Whether it's because people know he's an ex-DE (which I find unlikely) or whether he's a notorius troublemaker or whatever, there may be a reluctance to employ him. In which case, in giving him his second chance, Dumbledore could have offered him work as well. (Another typical coping mechanism for victims of bullying and violence, btw – trying to find reasons why you’ve deserved what’s happening to you, why it’s your own fault. Sounds weird, I know, but it seems to be easier to accept for the victim than the hugs injustice of something bad happening to you without you having deserved it.) That's very true, and there's no doubt that his acceptance of it being his fault would have been re-inforced by the teasing and taunting by other pupils at Hogwarts (some in particular).Neville’s parents were Aurors, after all, and very good at their job… could there have been a connection between Snape in the Longbottoms in the past, back in Snape's DE days? Something that Snape doesn’t like to be reminded of? Something that makes Snape want to take a late revenge on their son as well? I hadn't thought about that, but it's highly possible. Neville seems to me to be more and more like Harry the more we find out. The fact that the prophecy could have been about him, that he grew up , in effect, without his parents and that Snape singles him out for bullying. The Longbottoms and the Potters, up to a point, mirror each other. And of course the Longbottoms escaped from Voldemort three times - ample opportunity for them to have had a meeting with Snape.The trouble is, we just don’t know. They could have been 20, or 25. JKR has given Snape's age in interviews, so the timeline has him as being twenty/twenty-one years older than Harry. That's what I was going by in saying that Lucius is older.

One thing (slightly OT, I know - but still kinda relevant to Snape) that I noticed recently was this in a review of the movie The Sin Eater:

The corpse bears the mark of a Sin Eater, someone who offers to beget absolution by sucking the client's soul clean and taking their sins unto themselves...

Now I've always found the name Death Eater to be slightly strange. I wondered whether this idea of a Sin Eater was relevant. Voldemort said he took steps to make himself immortal, could it be that each DE somehow took a bit of his mortality unto him/herself?

Pippin

09-16-2003, 11:22 AM

Posted by Seriphus

I think Sirius was against the type of wizards his family were before he started Hogwarts so I don't think the Marauders made him turn against 'the dark side' or anything like that, but if he hadn't been friends with them he may have got into a bad group…. There seems to be something about Sirius that, even though he is similar to Snape in so many ways, suggests he would always oppose Voldemort. That’s something quite amazing, if you think of about it: James and Sirius were extremely arrogant and immature and self-important and thoughtless and mean and insensitive at school – and still there seems to have been no second’s hesitation for either of them when Dumbledore called them to the fight against Voldemort. As if they’ve always had a completely clear cut idea of what was, in very general terms, good and evil.

(That’s of course assuming that they both had some nobler, higher motivation for joining the Order than “yay, we finally get to curse Snape and his buddies without getting detention!” :rolleyes: )

I wonder if Snape’s ideas have always been as clear cut? Did he always know with the same certainty where he belonged? What we know about young Snape and his fascination with the Dark Arts seems to hint at that.

But then, Snape for one definitely knows that there’s no black and white in the world, only shades of grey. I think he actually kind of despises idealistic people who are convinced that things are that simple. Maybe because he’s personally had to fight against this prejudice so often, “once a DE always a DE”, because he’s a living example that this is not true.

I'm forever hoping that JKR will produce a Slytherin character who's not a nasty racist and it would annoy me if Snape turns out to be a mudblood-hater just like the rest of them. I agree, Serphy, I’d like to see that, too. There must be some. For example, what about all those Slytherins that aren’t pure-bloods themselves? There are some of those. Tom Riddle was one.

Or maybe some Slytherin who has SO FAR always expressed racist beliefs will have a big change of heart some time in the future?

Maybe Snape has a bad reputation - similar to Remus who struggles to find paid work (cue a revival of the Snape's-a-vampire-theory ). Whether it's because people know he's an ex-DE (which I find unlikely) or whether he's a notorius troublemaker or whatever, there may be a reluctance to employ him. In which case, in giving him his second chance, Dumbledore could have offered him work as well. Well, that sounds logical enough to me! Let’s not go to the vampire thing but even the shadow of a suspicion that he might have had to do with the DE might have put him into a difficult position in the Wizarding World.

It makes Snape and Lupin curiously alike, in that way, fighting against prejudice all the time. Maybe that’s why Snape makes use of every opportunity to discredit Lupin, because inwardly, he feels he could easily have found himself in the same victim position, and being mean to Lupin is a bit the same like bullying Neville – he enjoys it that for once, the roles have changed.

What I do think is that, for what ever reason, Snape largely owes his present position in the wizarding world to Dumbledore, and he’s extremely, not to say painfully, aware of it. You know how he always gets jealous when someone dares to challenge this, or puts his loyalty to Dumbledore in question?

Whether it’s Lockhart (“Excuse me, but I believe I am the Potions master at this school” ) or Lupin ( “I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this… he was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin… a tame werewolf” ), Snape always seems desperate to reassure himself and the world that HE’s sitting safely in his position and THEY’re not going to kick him out and take his place in Dumbledore’s trust and esteem.

What a blow the “you’re here at my invitation” at the end of GoF must have been. There he is, after fourteen years of loyal service to Dumbledore, put on the same level as an alleged runaway murderer and traitor, who, to top it all, also happens to be his personal archenemy. Not nice. Not good for Snape’s self-esteem.

there's no doubt that his acceptance of it being his fault would have been re-inforced by the teasing and taunting by other pupils at Hogwarts (some in particular). Yes, it’s a kind of vicious circle really – and fighting back doesn’t help, it only gives them more reason for more bullying… Small wonder young Snape thought joining the DE was his way out of it. And in a way, I suppo